Bushmaster ACR

[StarMetal]

For those of you who want to build a very accurate semi automatic rifle in the AR format I advise you to stick with the AR15. Lots of reasons for that. One is the avalanche of parts and accessories. We're talking premium quality match grade barrels from top barrel makers. Two is the cost. One of the attractive things about AR15's is that the parts are relatively cheap. Three is it can be had in an unlimited variety of formats and stock formats. Four is there is no doubt that the direct impingement gas system is one of the main contributors to it's accuracy.

The Bushmaster ACR offers only a barrel and caliber change with a piston driven system at a very premium price.

From my inside industry sources Bushmaster anticipated a huge sale volume and is actually stuck with many guns. It hasn't been proven that the military is interested in it, why would they be when currently in their hands is the excellent FN SCAR with all the attributes the ACR claim.

AR15's and AR10's are the next wave of rifles for the civilian shooters and hunters.

[a.squibload]

I have always balked at spending $1K on a gun (being a po boy!), but it's looking like an AR of some kind
could worm it's way into my gun box. I mean what's not to like?

Lately I've been considering 458 Socom or 450 Bushmaster, there's a lot of info to analyze.
Not sure which would be better, although the 450 is a straight-walled case, and I've never reloaded bottlenecked rifle cartridges.
A little help if you get a minute?

I can get a complete polymer lower Plum Crazy, and a sale 223 complete upper, for about $600, if I stick with .223.
I might be able to make jacketed boolits from 22 rimfire cases without a HUGE investment.
Not so sure about making 45s that cheaply.
The 45 uppers are a little more expensive, but would be worth it (hammer effect, it's like buying a motorcycle,
don't you want the BIG engine?).

Pros? Cons? Opinions?

Also please forgive my ignorance, never thought I could afford such an animal so haven't read about them:
what about the gas system vs the one with the driving rod? Worth trying to figure out the rod thing?
Am I even talking about the AR machine here, or is that an AK thing?

Thanks.

[Bloodman14]

Having used the M-16A2 while in the Army, I will never have one as a civilian. I could not get used to the idea of an operating system that blew powder residue ALL OVER the bolt/carrier assembly, and into the action, as well. Maybe I missed something, but that seems to be a bad way to do things. On the other hand, I would have NO problem taking my SKS into combat; I'll take a piston over a gas tube any day of the week (I dearly loved the M-60 and M-249).FWIW.

[NickSS]

After 40 years of use the AR 15/M16 is about as bullet proof as you can get. Yes you have to keep them clean and at times that may be a problem but overall it compares very well with other newer platforms. I never had a problem with the gas system on the AR 15 any more than I have had with classic piston driven rifles. I actually have had more trouble with the M1 Garand and M14 rifles than I ever had with an AR. They all need to be kept clean to keep on working. I personally do not see how a piston op rod added to basically and AR 15 will make it any more reliable the rest of it has basically the same tolerances and will collect dirt just as fast. To me its just a gimmic to sell more rifles to people who do not like to clean the gas piston at the rear of the gun but would rather do it at the muzzle end.

[StarMetal]

I'd go for the 450 Bushmaster.

The M16 is the longest served U.S. military rifle. That says something for it. There were lots of problems with it in the early days of Nam that were not because of the rifle but other factors. One was telling the soldiers that the rifle never needed cleaning thus no cleaning equipment or instructions were issued for it at first. One of the things that I like to do is question vets that served in Nam about the M16. I get the same stories. Clean your rifle and use the LSA oil and didn't have a problem with it. Those that didn't did have problems.

There was another direct gas impingement rifle that also served in Nam before us. That was the French MAS 49/56. Although the French got kicked out over there they had no problems with their rifles.

The Egyptians didn't seem to have much trouble with their Hakim.

One final note. The current AR15's today are vastly superior to the early M16's in Nam and besides I highly doubt anyone buying one today is going to be using it in the same circumstances and conditions that they were in Nam. You're missing out on really fun and reliable rifle. The proof if whether they are any good enough is in the sales and who is selling them.....everyone!!!!

[mike in co]

the std gas impingement ar is a very accurate rifle when compared to an ak with its piston system.
there is nearly no reason to go to the piston system in an ar.

if you shoot full auto, beta mag after beta mag, well maybe..the rest of us no.

[9.3X62AL]

I have yet to own an AR-15 derived rifle. I used a lot of them at work, starting in 1989 when the system replaced the Mini-14s we had used on our SWAT teams for several years. Having never been in the service, I had no extensive exposure to the system prior to that time.

I have owned Mini-14s since the late 1970s, and was a lot more familiar with that system. The Rugers are light-years stronger and more durable than the Colt/Bushy/whatever Mattel toys, but I would call them a dead heat for reliability until about 200-250 rounds are downrange, at which time the Ruger tends to keep running while the Colt gets balky on occasion. Run them to 1000 rounds without a clean-up, and the ARs WILL stoppage; the Rugers start getting balky at that point. Common sense tells us in a hunting or police application that cleaning the rifles at 100-200 round intervals is wise practice. A 200-round firing sequence is a pretty rigorous usage cycle, and at that point a squad automatic weapon system starts making a lot more sense--both from a survival/tactical context and a mechanical aspect.

A roundabout way of saying CLEAN THE CRITTER, and the AR will run like a Swiss watch for ya.

[Storydude]

Or, grab my AK, put rounds into a man sized target at 300 yards and do it over and over and over and over and over and over....

A semi auto .Mil derived rifle will be a tack driver...once you toss thousands of dollars at it.

As for the Hakim and MAS argument, well, those don't have rotating locking bolts. They have tipping locking bolts.

[StarMetal]

The Czech VZ58 beats the AK47 in both reliability and accuracy.

[Storydude]

The Czech VZ58 beats the AK47 in both reliability and accuracy.

Nope.

From a rest, my VZ is only SLIGHTLY more accurate than my AK's, but MUCH less reliable.

And define Accuracy. One shot form a cold barrel? Or after the 60th shot on a hot barrel?

;)

If I wanted a very accurate semi auto, I'd use my Garand over an AR platform any day.

[daschnoz]

I'm a piston guy - AK and FAL. Like Gunnerd, I can't get passed the whole dirty gas in the bolt group thing.

I have a friend that has an AR with a Dissipator upper. I don't have one, nor do I want one - gas or piston. I can not get past the boooooiiiiinnnnnnnggggg of the recoil spring.

HOWEVER, if it is the only thing I can get my hands on in time of dire need, I'm sure I will love it.

[Moonie]

Until recently I had never had an AR nor wanted one. One of my sons is now a US Marine and he wanted to build an AR, we did it together as a project. I actually like the rifle alot and currently I am building a 6.8 SPC upper for it to hunt with, this from a die hard single shot or bolt guy...

Still waiting on my Bator mold too...

[Bloodman14]

The very first time I fired my M-16, and heard the boooooiiiiinnnnnnnggggg of the spring, I stopped firing and gave the rifle a dirty look. The Drill Sergeant immediately jumped my butt for stopping and questioning the quality and workmanship of an American made weapon! I busted up laughing, and was dropped for 50. (I did a LOT of pushups in basic!)

[NickSS]

I one time wanted to see how many rounds I could fire in an ar so I got a 50 cal ammo can and filled it with loose ammo to the brim. I took an Old Colt AR 15 first model and went shooting. At the end of the day I had an empty ammo can and a very dirty rifle. Net result of nearly 2000 rounds down range was no jams or stopages and consistent accuracy throughout the day. I have to admit to letting the rifle cool a bit every 4 mags before I started shooting again.

[mac1911]

AR 15s are as bad as casting boolits.....you either get the bug or you do not. I have been craming wolf milclasic steel case ammo down my STAG arms H2 for 4K+ rounds, with nothing more than a quick barrel swipe and wipe off @ 2500 I gave it a good bath. No issues, I have more problems with mags than the gun. accuracy......I can hit MOM(minuteOman) @ 100y thats what I exspect from it. With AR-itis you will have multiple cal. and all sorts of junk hanging off those uppers......the .50 beawolf(sp) has me licking my lips. I have had a lot of fun with my 22lr TacticalSolutions upper. you can have so many uppers to hang on one lower.

[StarMetal]

Now look at those two posts ahead of this one. See how long those guns ran without cleaning. Those negative posts about "why I wouldn't have an AR15 because of the gas dumping into the receiver making it dirtier then a power plant's coal burning smoke stack in 25 years" is just keyboard I heard it on the internet repeating what they have read on the internet commandos. :bigsmyl2::kidding:[smilie=s:

[Heavy lead]

Mine stays every bit as clean as my bolt guns, don't get the problem.

[DIRT Farmer]

A lot of the discussion, opionion is what you feel comfortable with. As a road running young cattleman I carried what I had, a 94 Win. 30-30. I never felt short when I carried it. When I started working the street I bought a mini 14. I still never felt short. But when I was on entry or clearing a building, I reached for the 870 12ga. It is amazing how scurrying critters follow instructions in the presence of the master. And the 870 runs peroid.

[nicholst55]

When I was in the sandbox in 2005-2006, we ended up with a lot of 'spare,' or excess ammo. Every time a soldier or Marine left ammo on a plane, the Security Forces brought it to me. It was more fun to shoot it up than it was to turn it in at the Bomb Dump, so I'd take it to the range and shoot it.

One day I fired 500 rounds of M855 Ball and M856 Tracer, at cyclic rate, as fast as I could drop the empty mag and replace it. The weapon was a Vietnam-era M16 carbine with a 14.5" barrel. No M-4 feed ramps, no bells, no whistles, etc. I had zero malfunctions, but the gun was definitely too hot to handle when I finished!

Subsequently, I learned that I was probably right on the verge of having the barrel either droop or burst from overheating while I was doing this. Fortunately, I ran out of ammo when I did. It was fun at the time, but I wouldn't repeat it.

I had lightly lubed the rifle the last time I cleaned it, but I didn't add any lube during my range trip. So, what's my point? I guess my point is that M16s and AR-15s will fire more than 100-200 rounds before they choke on the carbon and require maintenance.

[Storydude]

When I was in the sandbox in 2005-2006, we ended up with a lot of 'spare,' or excess ammo. Every time a soldier or Marine left ammo on a plane, the Security Forces brought it to me. It was more fun to shoot it up than it was to turn it in at the Bomb Dump, so I'd take it to the range and shoot it.

One day I fired 500 rounds of M855 Ball and M856 Tracer, at cyclic rate, as fast as I could drop the empty mag and replace it. The weapon was a Vietnam-era M16 carbine with a 14.5" barrel. No M-4 feed ramps, no bells, no whistles, etc. I had zero malfunctions, but the gun was definitely too hot to handle when I finished!

Subsequently, I learned that I was probably right on the verge of having the barrel either droop or burst from overheating while I was doing this. Fortunately, I ran out of ammo when I did. It was fun at the time, but I wouldn't repeat it.

I had lightly lubed the rifle the last time I cleaned it, but I didn't add any lube during my range trip. So, what's my point? I guess my point is that M16s and AR-15s will fire more than 100-200 rounds before they choke on the carbon and require maintenance.

When a firearm wears from use, they tend to get more reliable as tolerances open up ;)

Most of the AR problems are from guns with less than 500 rounds downrange, and haven't even polished the anodizing yet.

Even some of my AK builds need 300-500 rounds before they really start running well. And that's a firearm with the tolerances a Model T would have been rejected if it showed them.

most of the "ar's suck" argument comes from range bunnies and safe queens. Even some of my lower end AR's run great...now that they have broken in after 1K rnds.

[Bloodman14]

I'm sorry, I've got real problems with a firearm that has to be 'broken-in'! If it doesn't shoot the way it is supposed/designed to out-of-the-box, I'm done with it.

[Storydude]

you might want to read Kimber's Owner's manual then.

Tight guns wear to normal tolerances.
Loose guns wear out.

I guess you'd not like my Springfield Socom then. Or my Valmet. Or my G3.

NONE of those, Out of the box, Ran right until past 200-400 rounds.

And those are 1K+ guns.

I have a Mossberg 500 that jammed every 3rd shot...Till I broke the burr off the magtube that was holding the 4th and 5th back.

Fresh parkerizing, slightly out of spec parts, slightly thick tennifer coating......All will cause a firearm to jam/fail.

After 200 rounds, the high edges are knocked off the parkerizing, the tennifer wears in, the bolt settles down....Expecting a firearm to go bang every time, all the time, with zero fail is statistically impossible.

[GabbyM]

I've never understood why people got all tight in the shorts over the gas piston being in the bolt carrier as opposed to a tube under or over the barrel. There is a piston in there someplace after all. No mystery why Eugene Stoner would have looked at ways for doing away with an op rod since it was a week link in the M1 / M14 systems. So far none of the 5.56mm rifles with op rods are as accurate as an AR. They just cost twice or three times as much.

Bought an AR once where the previous owner had poured motor oil or some mineral oil into the gas vent ports of the bolt carrier until the piston was filled full with carbon. You couldn't even see the rings or shape of the bolt. Was a straight walled cylinder of carbon. Had to soak the bolt in a can of carburetor cleaner for a day then it was good to go. Thing is the rifle apparently was still shooting long enough to run until the bolt and carrier jammed solid. Only repeated additions of hydrocarbons by the operator forced this condition in the first place. That fellow probably gets on the internet to tell everyone how AR's fill with crud and jam.

I tried to help a fellow at a trap shoot once who had a Remington Model 1100 with the gas piston fouled. You could barely work the bolt by hand to load a shell and they were not even ejecting. He said “I've been oiling it.” I made a few suggestions. Took mine apart in front of him to show him how it was done and what they should look like after 250 shots. He had never had his piston out to clean. Just poured in more mineral oil. Made a mental note to self not to ever buy a used car off that guy.

[mac1911]

among the small circle of AR owners I am associated with 2 have jamming problems BOTH have ARs in .223 chamber and tried useing some Lakecity 5.56 surplus ammo. They switched to UMC bulk pack .223 and problems seem to haave gone away away. ?????

[StarMetal]

among the small circle of AR owners I am associated with 2 have jamming problems BOTH have ARs in .223 chamber and tried useing some Lakecity 5.56 surplus ammo. They switched to UMC bulk pack .223 and problems seem to haave gone away away. ?????


The 5.56 NATO chamber has more loose dimensions then the 223 chamber, especially in freebore. It is widely known that you should not shoot 5.56 NATO ammo in anything but 5.56 NATO chambers.

It is kind of hard to understand why it jammed so much because, for example, my 6.5 Grendel has a match chamber, and because of some manufacturing screw ups (long story I won't get into here) the sizing dies, chambes, load cartridges aren't exactly the perfect match and yet my AR15 6.5 Grendel runs great.

About the other post on oiling the AR15. Well there needs to be a certain amount of oil, but certainly not filling the gas system with it. There was a mention of motor oil. In my circle of AR friends there is a wide use of Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil used instead of the LSA.

[GabbyM]

About the other post on oiling the AR15. Well there needs to be a certain amount of oil, but certainly not filling the gas system with it. There was a mention of motor oil. In my circle of AR friends there is a wide use of Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil used instead of the LSA.

That is why I stated mineral oil. Mobile one had not been invented when this gun was fouled up. PAO lubes may indeed work. For those of you whom do not know Mobile one and all other PAO is cracked down from natural gas. I'm not one to bore you all with it and am not an expert. Just don't poor junk in the gun then blame the design when it locks up.

[GabbyM]

among the small circle of AR owners I am associated with 2 have jamming problems BOTH have ARs in .223 chamber and tried useing some Lakecity 5.56 surplus ammo. They switched to UMC bulk pack .223 and problems seem to haave gone away away. ?????

Most of the Lake city ammo sold to the public has been rejected by our government. In short it is junked ammo sold at a chump price. Yes I also hate it when I'm played for a chump. I keep thinkng it will be the last time. IIRC XM193 where X means rejected.
All Kosher since it says rejected right on the box.

[mac1911]

I have had no issues with XM193 or the lake city I bought from the 2......rejected by mil specs, are they different than sami specs?

[Hickory]

Until recently I had never had an AR nor wanted one. One of my sons is now a US Marine and he wanted to build an AR, we did it together as a project. I actually like the rifle alot and currently I am building a 6.8 SPC upper for it to hunt with, this from a die hard single shot or bolt guy...

I could and can say the very same thing, I never wanted an AR, son's in the USMC
I built one for him, and so on. . .

[mac1911]

A short reading and XM193 is not rejected military ammo as it is not a NATO round. M855(?) is the nato round.

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx

or possible another big corporation lie??????

my friend just emailed me this http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/

I was wondering after all this talk how his AR was doing....."rebuilt my mags with new springs and followers, no issues yet."

[NickSS]

I have about 40 years experience with semi auto rifles and only one of these has ever not given me a problem. I have owned and shot M1s, M1As, M1 Carbines, Tokarev 1941, Swedish Lugman (sp), Hakiem, German G 43s, FN ABLs, FNALs, DAWOO assault rifle, AK 47s, AKMs Finnish Valmet, AR 15s, Remington 742, Browning BARs and an H&K 91. They all had jams occationally of one sort or another except one. And that one was shot until it wore out (some 20,000 rounds). Any Gueses??. It was the H&K 91. I never had a single failure and only sold it when its accuracy got so poor as to equal a new AS 47. An talk about dirty actions this rifle took top honors there too. The chamber is fluted and gas blows back into the action with every shot. Far mor crud than I have ever had with an AR but it never affected function. I even tried to make it jam by feeding it some ammo that would not chamber in any other 308 I owned due to its being bulged at the shoulder. The H&K never even knew it should not be able to fit the chamber and fired all of them unnoticed along with the rest of the shells in the magazine. The H&K was also the least balanced rifle I ever owned and perhaps the uglyest but it sure did work well.

[Storydude]

As the 91 is recoil DRB action, there is no gas needed to operate the action.

The Brass itself runs the action.

Meaning if the round goes BANG and the bullet leaves the barrel, the action will work.

[ilcop22]

I switched to BreakFree CLP and haven't had an issue since. The oil coats the parts with a teflon finish that works wonders.