M1902 Remington Rolling Block

[Demonical]

I joined this site after internet search brought me here. This looked like the kind of place to get some solid advice.

This rifle is a 1901 patent, that was originally chambered in 7x57. I am still trying to find out the history of the rifle, where it came from etc... I just acquired it. From researching the info engraved on the rifle, it looks legit, with Patent Oct 22nd 1901 stamped on it.

The gunsmith that built this did a beautiful job.

Here's the info the gunsmith has provided me, at this point. I am hoping to learn more specific info on the origins of the rifle.

I built the gun, I've been a gunsmith for over 45 years.
This is an original Remington rolling block smokeless action that was 7mm mauser that I refurbished and rebarreled and put new wood and checkered it myself.
There has been many models of Rolling Blocks manufactured and this replicates one of them.
There has been less than a box of cartridges fired through it, I had an accident not long after I built it and severely damaged both rotor cups in my shoulders and I have trouble lifting any kind of weight with my left arm, and I'm also getting up in age I'll be 80 this year.
Barrel length 29in. weight 10lbs.

Regards, Joe


What I want to know, is what kind of pressure should this rifle be loaded to!?

As you see, the guy sent along a pic of a target, that has a load listed on it, with a 400gr bullet at 2255fps... !! That seems over-the-top to me.

I confess ignorance though, as to what I should be doing with it, but had the idea that loads with 400gr bullets ought to be more in the 1500-1600fps range. Or is that too high even!?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Jim.


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/Imperiatus/Guns%20N%20Ammo/RRB8.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/Imperiatus/Guns%20N%20Ammo/RRB7.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/Imperiatus/Guns%20N%20Ammo/RRB6.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/Imperiatus/Guns%20N%20Ammo/RRB5.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/Imperiatus/Guns%20N%20Ammo/RRB1.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/Imperiatus/Guns%20N%20Ammo/RRB2.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/Imperiatus/Guns%20N%20Ammo/RRB4.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/Imperiatus/Guns%20N%20Ammo/RRBtarget.jpg

[omgb]

If you should tire of it and decide that you absolutely must have a Springfield A303 let me know.

[Frank46]

Beautiful rolling block. From the loading data I'm inclined to think that its a bit on the warm side. Even for a smokeless rolling block. The load listed would be safe in a ruger #1 in 45/70. You would be better off if you would load to trapdoor levels. That should ensure that both you and that rifle are around for years to come. I had a #1
black powder action barreled with one of the numrich kits years ago. Believe me when I say that a 405 grain jacketed bullet with factory ammo left a lasting impression on me. Thanks for sharing the pics with us. Frank

[NickSS]

The 7X57 smokeless actions are stronger than the BP actions due mostly to heat treating they got. However the 7X57 mauser generates around 45,000 psi in military loadings and the load you have for your rifle is warm for that. In addition, most 7X57 RB I have seen have head space issues due to the pressure of the cartridge. I would hold the loads down to around 30,000 psi for both safety and longevity of your rifle. You will find that your shoulder will thank you as well.

[Jack Stanley]

Wow ! that is one handsome rifle . Congrats on finding it . My guess is that you won't like to shoot very many of the loads mentioned .

Jack

[docone31]

Second on Purty.
Good looking rifle.

[MtGun44]

First off, that is a really beautiful example of a rebuilt RB. The gunsmith did a really
excellent job.

I would tend to use slow powders and limit velocities to about 1700-1800 fps.

I have a 7x57 1902 original, shoots well with loads up to normal 7x57 velocity with
slow powders, works well.

While the RB is a great action, it does not handle a ruptured case well at all. The pressure
blows the action sides outward, releasing the pins the whole thing is completely destroyed.

Slow powders (ballpark 4064 or slower). For example, I use 57 gr of W748 under a
cast 400 in my Marlin. It makes 1750 in that gun, but is reported by Brian Pearce to have
been lab tested at Trapdoor Springfield pressures, so would be fine in your gun. It is
accurate in my Marlin and works just great for Rem or Speer 405 jbullets, too.

[Demonical]

MtGun44, thanks that is great information!

I recently bought some IMR-4064, after reviewing notes from old .45-70 loads I fired a few years ago. I tried a bunch of loads with that powder and actually gave up on it, because I wasn't getting the velocity I desired (with a 350gr Hornady).
But on looking at that info' it gave the most consistent shot-to-shot velocity of any of the powders I have used.

So I think I'll take your advice, and bounce those numbers against my own data, then go from there.


Edit;
Oh yeah, a confession. I have never cast bullets or loaded factory cast bullets. I am interested in a ~500gr cast bullet in this rifle, it just seems like the right thing to do.

I own 400gr Hawk 0.035" jacket, 405 Remington, 405gr Woodleighs, 350gr Hornadys.

[Skipper]

First of all, 55 gns of 2015 behind a 400 gn Speer is way too hot for a rolling block.

Nice rifle, though.


http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/Acc%20Guide%20v3.3%20version.pdf

[Buckshot]

.............I think you'd be wise to treat the old girl (as lovely as she is, and even with the pedigree) comensurate with her age. The rifle doesn't need to be hammered with those type loads. Even a smokless action RB is not a modern bolt action of modern steels. I'd keep my loads well below those recommended for the Marlins in 45-70. Besides, a 405gr 45 caliber slug at 1600 fps will do most anything you'd ever ask of it. I see the gunsmith didn't mill flats on the action ring. That is a common thing to do when rebarreling these actions.

...............Buckshot

[John Taylor]

I'm with the others, keep the loads close to trapdoor pressures. While I have heard that some of the later factory actions were made in 30-06 they are quite rare and most likely had problems. There is no reason to take a chance when your life could be forfeited. It's like coming to a curve in the road marked 40 and you have been taking it at 60, you might get by with it 99 out of 100 times but that one time makes the difference.

[wiljen]

Per QuickLOAD, that load produces better than 53,000 PSI. I wouldn't shoot anything much over half of that.

[MtGun44]

Wiljen,

Which load? I do not have QuickLOAD. I am guessing you mean the AA2015 load.

Can you put the 57gr W748 under a 405 gr boolit in your QLoad and see what it says?

I know that it is fine in my Marlin and case life is forever, and Brian Pierce reports that it
is Trapdoor level pressure. It would be interesting if the computer program supports
that, too.

Bill

[TCLouis]

Load, Smoad . . .

That rifle is simple ELEGANCE.

I keep all my 45-70 loads at Trap Door levels, makes them a lot more fun to shoot and I doubt any will bounce off of anything I send them to meet.

Well maybe some of the tougher cardboard.

[McLintock]

In my book, "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 45-70 Government", under the Accurate Powders section, it lists the following:
Spr 400 FN 2015BR 44.1 1550 fps, 49.0 1781 fps 24,000 PSI
405 Lead FN 2015BR 48.8 1465 fps, 54.0 1665 fps 28,800 PSI
Under Speer bullets they list a 400 FP with 2015BR and 52.0 gr at 1851 FPS and 56.0 at 2018 fps, which is compressed. Speer goes on to say that these loads "approach average pressures of 35,000 psi".
Basically, with a .45 caliber bore, it's difficult to get really high pressures, especially 53,000, but I'm not saying that that's not right, just listing some printed data.
McLintock

[longhorn]

Nice looking rifle, but I'm not sure what model it's supposed to "replicate." I own a couple of rollers, have shot quite a few more, follow all the discussions and literature on 'em I can find--and my opinion (yeah, I know!) is that they're for black powder only. Not pretty when one comes apart. Rifles shot with black and properly fitting bullets clean up real easy, too.

[leadman]

The 7X57 RBs were on a smokeless action. The chambers of these rifles were longer than the modern SAAMI specs in use now. This is why everyone thinks they have excess headspace.

That is a very nice looking rifle but I think it would be a mite uncomfortable to shoot with the load the 'smith listed. Trapdoor level loads would be more comfortable but if you needed to flatten the trajectory some use the 300 or 350 gr. bullets.

[wiljen]

Wiljen,

Which load? I do not have QuickLOAD. I am guessing you mean the AA2015 load.

Can you put the 57gr W748 under a 405 gr boolit in your QLoad and see what it says?

Bill


I was referring to the AA2015 load - way over max.

Assuming the Lyman 457193 loaded to an OAL of 2.54" and a 20" barrel, your load produces 1950fps and 42,860 PSI

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Welcome to the crew of Rollers ! Nice Rifle !
I do not think I would continue to shoot that load in my Roller. I have not seen any Wooly Mastadones lurking about the neighboorhood nor planning an invasion from Maine.
Some one should have a copy of Ken Waters reloading books .. It seems to me he did an article on the 7MM conversions. My copies are in storage in Illinois.
But with the Rollers it is all about Bolt Thrust. I have Numerous Rollers and at least 2 NEW manufactured ones (Navy & Pedersoli). There is a good chunk of metal in that breech block but they still crack and then let loose over the years. I would personally resign my loading to the Winchester / Marlin load data and KNOW you still have enough of a STOMPER in your hands to tackle any known critter on this side of the world.

[Southern Son]

That is a very nice rifle. The gunsmith did a very good job dressing it up.

[jlchucker]

I'm with those who say to use trapdoor loads. That rifle is too beautiful to risk damaging it. If you need to go a little hotter, maybe check the loading manuals for some STARTING loads for Marlins, and watch for pressure signs. There's nothing really wrong with trapdoor loads, though. You'll pay the price for hotrod loads two ways--in risking damage to a very beautiful gun, and very real pain in your shooting cheekbone and shoulder. In the end, you'll enjoy the trapdoor loads a lot more. I bet that with the right boolit and load, they'll be both accurate and pleasant to shoot.

[Ron B.]

A wonder; did the gunsmith actually fire the load you mentioned?
May explain the rotor cup problem///accident he had. :)

Personally, I would not shoot that load in any rifle.
I'd recommend trying some IMR Trail Boss; great for 45-70 loads with cast boolits.
Accurate's 5744 is swell also.

Beautiful rifle.

RB

[McLintock]

Hey MtGun44,
According to Wiljen and Quickload, your Marlin load at 42,000psi+, and 1950fps is a bit over Trapdoor pressures of less than 18,000 psi, there seems to be some variance in load data for the old 45-70. That seemed like a lot of 748 and I've used 748 in 45-70, as well as 223 Rem and 30-06 (loading for a 1919 Browning at 49.5 grs), but if that load shoots good and feels good to your shoulder, then use it; 1950 fps with a 400 gr bullet is grizzly bear stopping load, almost as good as a 450 Alaskan. A good medium burning powder that hasn't even been mentioned is 3031 and it can go from mild to hot in the old case. In addition to the point Leadman pointed out on the long chambers of RB 7MM chambers, Frand De Haas, in his book on single shots, says the excess headspace problems comes more from a stack up of loose tolerances as actions become worn. Add this factor and the longer chamber together and you have the problems. He also says, that in good condition, they're good for cartridges up to medium psi stuff, like the 257 Roberts, or, I'd say, the 7MM. If I had one (1902) in good condition, and I'm looking at one now, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot original type ammo in it, as MtGun44 says he is doing. It's consistently printed out that original 7MM loads ran 42-45,000 psi (Ken Waters too, I looked it up in Pet Loads) and I think your shoulder will give out before that level is reached, unless you're a masochist. One last thought, after having both shoulders repaired for completely torn rotator cuffs, plus partials, I can attest that shooting rifles, no matter what the load won't hurt your rotator cuffs, but will produce black and blue patches aplenty.
McLintock

[Skipper]

It isn't just the pressure in PSI that you have to worry about; it's the breech/bolt thrust caused by the increased case head diameter of the .45-70.


Read missionary5155's post again. The load is too hot for a roller.

[wiljen]

Just as clarification the 748 load is too hot for a roller too. It would be a lever-gun and #1 load. With the case head thrust produced by the 45-70, I'd keep it to 20,000 PSI or so in that Roller. You can produce plenty of stopping power and have a nice old rifle for a long time with loads at that level.

While the hotter loads may not disintegrate your gun, they will wear it out fairly rapidly which would be a shame as nice a rifle as it looks to be.

[McLintock]

I'm not arguing whether either load is too hot for the Roller, I wouldn't want to shoot either one as I've always been pretty recoil sensitive. I'm just trying to get a handle on this breech bolt thrust thing as it's a new one on me, and I'm having a hard time conguring up a picture of it in my head. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I'm imagaining breech bolt thrush as the pressure against the bolt face by the contact of the cartridge rim upon firing; is that right or wrong? If I'm on track there, then if we assume the pivot point for the breech bolt is the pin centerline, and the distance from that centerline to the first contact point of the rim is what affects the leverage against the bolt, then it follows that the amount of thrust it's taking is a direct correlation of this distance. Since the longer the distance, the more leverage against the bolt face, it seems the smaller diameter the rim, the more leverage it would have against the bolt face, as it's a further distance, and thus more leverage around the folcrum point. If it's a function of something else, like bore diameter, case wall taper, etc., please tell me as I'd like to know for sure. Thanks for any info you can give me.
McLintock

[wiljen]

Bolt Thrust is the amount of force exerted on the bolt face by the casehead at the time of firing. The larger the surface area of the casehead, the more pressure it exerts on the bolt all else being equal. So a 45-70 and a 223 loaded to the same overall pressure, do NOT exert the same amount of force on the boltface.

This is why Contenders have been chambered for smaller, higher pressure cartridges for years, but the larger diameter cartridges cannot be used.

It does seem counter-intuitive as I would have guessed that the smaller area would exert more pressure, but after seeing the numbers, it is true that as the case diameter grows, so does the level of force exerted.



I'm not arguing whether either load is too hot for the Roller, I wouldn't want to shoot either one as I've always been pretty recoil sensitive. I'm just trying to get a handle on this breech bolt thrust thing as it's a new one on me, and I'm having a hard time conguring up a picture of it in my head. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I'm imagaining breech bolt thrush as the pressure against the bolt face by the contact of the cartridge rim upon firing; is that right or wrong? If I'm on track there, then if we assume the pivot point for the breech bolt is the pin centerline, and the distance from that centerline to the first contact point of the rim is what affects the leverage against the bolt, then it follows that the amount of thrust it's taking is a direct correlation of this distance. Since the longer the distance, the more leverage against the bolt face, it seems the smaller diameter the rim, the more leverage it would have against the bolt face, as it's a further distance, and thus more leverage around the folcrum point. If it's a function of something else, like bore diameter, case wall taper, etc., please tell me as I'd like to know for sure. Thanks for any info you can give me.
McLintock

[McLintock]

OK, thanks for the explanation Wiljen, I think I'm gettin' it now. But the difference in rearward thrust of the cartridge case and head, between say a 45-70 with 400 gr bullet and a 7MM with 140 gr bullet, and both at the same pressure, say 20,000 psi, is due to the heavier bullet and much greater friction of the larger diameter bullet. To force that bullet out the bore, there's an equal and opposite reaction and that's the bolt thrust we're talking about. So, if we're talking the 45-70 at over 35,000 psi as in the loads from my 45-70 handbook, compared to say the original 7MM at just over 40,000 psi (Ken Waters, et el), and which the 1902 RB was extensively chambered for, then we're talking more bolt thrust, is that it? Be neat to see actual readings on this, but I don't supposed any are available. I always thought the limitation on the Contender was the narrowness of the action, but guess not, huh; course, got to admit, never really thought much about it, as the Contender never really interested me? Now, my Ruger Hawkeye, how about we put a 45-70 in it, might work; never mind, just kiddin'. But, thanks again for the explanation.
McLintock

[wiljen]

Bullet weight does not enter into the formula for bolt thrust other than the fact that it influences the peak pressure produced by the cartridge.

Bolt Thrust (in PSI) is calculated by:

Thrust = AREA * Cartridge Peak PSI

Where AREA is the area inside the case head that pressure can act directly on.

Since this dimension is more difficult to measure, many people when doing comparisons use the outside diameter of the cartridge or less correctly the rim diameter. The best way to eliminate the differences between rimmed and rimless rounds in this sitation, is to use the dimension immediately in front of the extractor Groove or rim.

If we do that for our comparison, we find the following

Diameter 7mm = .473 45-70 = .505
Pressure 40,000 PSI for both rounds
Thrust 7mm = 7029 45-70 = 8012

A 13% increase in Bolt Thrust for the 45-70 compared to the 7mmx57.

In order to make the two rounds equal in bolt thrust, we have to lower the 45-70 to 34,950 PSI peak pressure.

This also serves to show why the 444 Marlin is loaded to a factory 45,000 PSI but 45-70 loads are suggested to stay below 40,000 PSI in the same rifle. The .444 case has a smaller internal diameter and thus a lower bolt thrust when compared to the 45-70.

More reading can be found here.
http://www.varmintal.net/amod7.htm
http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm
http://www.varmintal.net/abolt.htm

[McLintock]

Hey, thanks for the extra info, and the articles, I'll have to read them for sure before trying to make any more comments. The No. 5 action of the 1902 Roller was made from 1902 to 1917 I believe. They were making pretty good firearms steel at Remington, Winchester, Marlin, et el, as all the old 03's, Enfields, Winchesters, etc. will attest. So, one in good condition should still be able to manage up to the 35,000 psi level in 45-70, and slightly over 40,000 in the 7MM, it's original chambering, as De Haas suggests. But, I wouldn't want to shoot the 45-70 at that loading, unless it was in a 10 lb or better rifle like the subject of this thread. Of course, no more than Trapdoor loads in all the earlier Rollers, which were mostly made for black powder cartridges. Thanks again for the reading sources.
McLintock

[BulletGeek]

I've got a buddy who reloads cast bullets for his Ruger No. 1 Tropical in .458 Win Mag. He has shot 405-grain loads as fast as 2300 fps out of that rifle just to push his personal limits... and that load did it. I have personally fired an RCBS 45-500 RNFP out of that rifle at 1900, and that load rocked my world pretty hard. It should, as with that load I wouldn't have been under-gunned for Cape Buffalo.

This guy's load of choice in the Ruger .458 is that same RCBS 500-grainer at about 1500 fps. He drives it with a moderate load of IMR-4895. We read that you can reduce loads with this powder down to as little as 60% of max and get a very linear, corresponding reduction in velocity. We tried in in the .458 case and got excellent results... he's shooting cloverleafs with it at 100 yards.

So I would recommend that you lay in a supply of that 500-grain RCBS bullet... I've got a mold if you need some bullets to try... and work up a load using IMR-4895. Your rifle, your brass, and your shoulder will all thank you.