Position sensitive ??

[Jack Stanley]

I'm working with a small charge of Bullseye in a .223 case with a fifty-two grain bullet .

In a load like this is Bullseye position sensitive ?

Thanks , Jack

[geargnasher]

ALL powders are position sensitive, and some scenarios demonstrate the effects more than others.

Why don't you use fast rifle powder for that? Don't paint yourself into the box labeled "I'm shooting cast, so I have to use the fastest powder on the planet". You can use the same powder that works with jacketed bullets with cast, often with better results due to more even pressure curves and softer "launch".

Gear

[pdawg_shooter]

ALL powders are position sensitive, and some scenarios demonstrate the effects more than others.

Why don't you use fast rifle powder for that? Don't paint yourself into the box labeled "I'm shooting cast, so I have to use the fastest powder on the planet". You can use the same powder that works with jacketed bullets with cast, often with better results due to more even pressure curves and softer "launch".

Gear

+1 on the standard powders.

[35remington]

Perhaps he's working up a gallery type load with a light powder charge in the 3 grain vicinity.

He'll tell us why he's doing it.

[Jack Stanley]

OK , I'm looking for a powder that lessens the effect of being at the front of the case , the rear of the case or spread anywhere along the middle .

It needs to expand the cases enough so there aren't any soot trails going down the side of the case when fired .

It needs to launch bullets that are gas checked and lubed with alox into small groups .

Velocity range needs to be forteen to eighteen hundred feet per second .



I have 700X as well but haven't done testing with it , Bullseye seems to be working but i haven't tested it for position yet .

Jack

[damron g]

"In a load like this is Bullseye position sensitive ? "

i shoot 5.5 in a 22-250 and accuracy is an inch @ 50 with a 225438 and no GC.Velocity is 1300 or so as i remember.if its position sensitive i wouldn't know how to tell (or care)because it groups very well.Most of my current shooting is with plain base loads in the 30-06 with 7-8 of Bullseye or 8-9 of Unique "slopping" about in the case and SD's and often single digit.

i have best luck with 4227,4759 in my 222 Remington in the 10-12 grain range @ 2000-2200.The best cast 22 shooting i ever saw was at 1600 fps with HS5 .Groups in the 1/2- 1/4" range were often shot in that old worn out Remington 40X and the Lyman 225462

George

[Jack Stanley]

Thanks George , the two two three is new territory for me . Groups like yours at fifty yards would be plenty for what I want to do with this cigar box full of projectiles .

Thanks , Jack

[felix]

George, I get those groups in a BR gun also. Not uncommon. But that is only on a BR bench. When angles change, like at the river where I shoot (used to, really) the target(s) changes location all the time. Up and down, left and right, canted crosshairs, etc. for each individual shot. Shotgun shells, mostly, are bobbing in water or hiding in the weeds, with a whipping wind most usually. If I hit the target 85 percent of the time, I am happy. With the changing angles, the powder is most position dependent, no matter which type or brand. So, what GEAR said above is right on; all powders are position sensitive. ... felix

[damron g]

" what GEAR said above is right on; all powders are position sensitive. "

If it doesn't show up on the Target or chronograph I don't see how they all can be? i spent the last two years with plain base loads in the 30-06 and found the faster powders not sensitive at all and very uniform.Accuracy suffered for other reasons. If i hadn't used a chronograph for nearly every shot in practice i might have concluded in was powder position when it really now seems to be a bore condition issue when accuracy fails and i get off shots.Now i don't tip the muzzle up one group and tip it forward another,that would be ignorant.When i shot w296 in the .308 in CBA product in class in the 1990'si tried it level,forward and back on the primer.All loads grouped well,the velocity averages were just a little different.The late CBA legendary production class shooter Stan D told me he got good uniformity with the powder forward closer to the bullet.

Yes 22's do shoot well.My Savage BVSS 22-250 has won a CBA score match(195-3x) and averaged 5/8" for a few consecutive groups at times.It just isn't a 200 yard competitive rifle.I now mostly shoot a Stevens 200 22-250 at the range with my Eagan MX-322 EX2 62g tapered bullet or an LBT 60sp tapered bullet Veral reluctantly made for me a.My field bullets are dual Cramer HP conversion of the RCBS 55 fn or a 4 cavity 225415 solid.The solid is pretty poor on game but 22 hp's are devastating.Both are about 1.5" groupers at 2100-2200 fps and the target loads do between 3/4" and 1.25" when all is going well.The 200 yard groups in the Stevens with the Eagan and LBT are 3" or a bit under in steady conditions.

George

[Alex Hamilton]

I'm working with a small charge of Bullseye in a .223 case with a fifty-two grain bullet .

In a load like this is Bullseye position sensitive ?

Thanks , Jack

Jack,

I agree with Geargnasher, but some powders are less position sensitive than others. Bullseye is one of those less sensitive as are Alliant 2400 and Accurate 5744. At least that is what their manufacturers claim. The only reason to use very fast pistol powders with cast boolints is because they are very economical and you can achieve superb accuracy without expensive gas checks.

I load 308Win with 8grs of Red Dot and 160gr Lee 309160R shot as cast and tumble lubricated in Lee Liquid Alox. There is a picture of one group in the attachment. This load is good to 200yds on a windless day; superb at 100yds.
Red Dot is in the same burning speed category as Bullseye but it is more bulky and fills the case more. Nevertheless, it still fills less than a third of a total case capacity in 308W.

Alex

[felix]

Yes, the faster powders are less sensitive, and you are very correct in that "dirty bore" syndrome. I have graduated to the V-V powders for this reason in the BR gun and other 22's. They would allow a longer session at the river before going home because of lack of interest, or ammo gone. ... felix

[damron g]

Yes, the faster powders are less sensitive, and you are very correct in that "dirty bore" syndrome. I have graduated to the V-V powders for this reason in the BR gun and other 22's. They would allow a longer session at the river before going home because of lack of interest, or ammo gone. ... felix

Ive hear the VV powders are good that way.Do you use the medium speed rifle powders or have you played with the faster ones?

When i use BE in the 06 plain base the carbon fouling is 1/2"-3/4" down the bore,Unique move is fouling "bitter spot" about 12" down further.Both are taken care of with the disliked barrel cleaning though.

George

[303Guy]

To answer the question, yes Bullseye is position sensitive. Someone did a pressure trace trial and proved that. The problen is worst when shooting straight down. Is it actually a problem? A fast powder like Bullseye in a small case? Probably not. The biggest problem with Bullseye in a case like that is the danger of double charging.

On the powder charge being able to seal the gase against gas leakage, that shouldn't be a problem is the case is only neck sized or not sized at all. I don't get gas leakage with any of my loads and I've loaded so light the bullet didn't ecit the bore. I weighted about a minute for the pressure to subside before opening the bolt and there was still pressure! Of course the case needs to have been fired with a full pressure load first.[smilie=1:

[Larry Gibson]

I'm working with a small charge of Bullseye in a .223 case with a fifty-two grain bullet .

In a load like this is Bullseye position sensitive ?

Thanks , Jack

Jack

I've been shooting Bullseye powder in mild cast bullet loads for many, many years and have experimented a lot with it. I have shot a lot of it in the .223 with 225415 shooting squirrels on the ground and in trees and on rock bluffs. 4 gr runs 1525 fps with that bullet and 1 - 1 1.2 moa at 100 yards out of my 12" twist M70. I have killed a lot of squirrels with that rifle/load. I have run numerous chronograph tests and find it does not exhibit any real "sensitivity" unless the angle of fire is above/below 60 degrees. That is a very steep angeled shot BTW. Greatest variation was with the "downhill" 60+ degree shots. However since most shots like that that I might take (very few in any unless there is something behind the target) would be realtively close (as in a squirrel on a limb in a tree right above me) the point of impact change from any velocity variation is nil. For 99.99999% of my shooting there is not worry about "position sensitivity" of the Bullseye powder charge.

BTW; That load is far and away much better than any equivelent load I've used with any slower powders. I've shot over 300 rounds of it in one day without any cleaning with no leading and no decrease in accuracy. I tend to cast the bullets pretty soft wfor that load and they are death on squirrels out to 150 yards. Cast a little harder of 16 - 18 BHN I can use 5.5 gr Bullseye for 1830 fps. That load does as well as any .22RF Magnum I've ever used. Those are my results, others may have their own results.

Larry Gibson

[Jack Stanley]

Alex , thank you , for me less sensitive is fine and that's pretty much what I was looking for . I'm sure any powder can be sensitive but there are different powders and I was pretty sure they all didn't perform exactly the same .

I've already got good accuracy with three point seven grains of Bullseye using the same bullet and lube but left the gas check off . Next up I'll use a gas check and see how much it helps ( or not ) . Larrys info is also very helpful , I don't expect of have the rifle pointed at either extreme . For me just normal range handling with decent accuracy ... good barrel condition would be nice too , I really am not looking to overdrive the lube .

The load is for a rifle that I use for offhand practice on reduced targets and range , plus if it's quiet folks are less likely to complain . Just over two thousand bullets prepped , the Dillon five fifty is set up except for adjusting the measure . Like they say ........ nothin' to it but to do it .

I guess 35 Remington guessed right on the money , sorry I don't have a prize or sumpthin'

Jack

[geargnasher]

Jack, I would suppose some of us have been answering the wrong question. You have your qualified answers to your direct question, but the context of the question was really something else. Yes, Bullseye is position sensitive, (I used to shoot a lot of squirrels with .38 special, and it matters a great deal when you decide to shoot at a turtle 45* down after shooting almost straight up all afternoon, just for one good example), but in the case of what you're trying to accomplish it probably won't matter. I wish you'd have said the third paragraph above in your original post, would have made your question easier to answer.

Gear

[geargnasher]

" what GEAR said above is right on; all powders are position sensitive. "

If it doesn't show up on the Target or chronograph I don't see how they all can be? I'm confused, you contradict that statement at the end of this post. i spent the last two years with plain base loads in the 30-06 and found the faster powders not sensitive at all and very uniform No?.Accuracy suffered for other reasons. If i hadn't used a chronograph for nearly every shot in practice i might have concluded in was powder position when it really now seems to be a bore condition issue when accuracy fails and i get off shots.Now i don't tip the muzzle up one group and tip it forward another,that would be ignorant. Why would that be ignorant? You KNOW it makes a difference, as you say here shortly.......When i shot w296 in the .308 in CBA product in class in the 1990'si tried it level,forward and back on the primer.All loads grouped well,the velocity averages were just a little different. Why do you suppose the velocities were different with the 296? Could it be it lights better when closer to the primer?The late CBA legendary production class shooter Stan D told me he got good uniformity with the powder forward closer to the bullet. I don't know that that could be considered a general rule or not, but you should expect consistency shot to shot no matter where the powder is, as long as it is in the SAME place every time.

Yes 22's do shoot well.My Savage BVSS 22-250 has won a CBA score match(195-3x) and averaged 5/8" for a few consecutive groups at times.It just isn't a 200 yard competitive rifle.I now mostly shoot a Stevens 200 22-250 at the range with my Eagan MX-322 EX2 62g tapered bullet or an LBT 60sp tapered bullet Veral reluctantly made for me a.My field bullets are dual Cramer HP conversion of the RCBS 55 fn or a 4 cavity 225415 solid.The solid is pretty poor on game but 22 hp's are devastating.Both are about 1.5" groupers at 2100-2200 fps and the target loads do between 3/4" and 1.25" when all is going well.The 200 yard groups in the Stevens with the Eagan and LBT are 3" or a bit under in steady conditions.

George

George, I don't know if you and I are talking about different things or if it's just different interpretations of experiences, but we do seem to disagree. I think you're arguing that powder position doesn't necessarily affect accuracy, while I'm arguing that mixing up the powder position will blow a group.

BTW, I tried Titegroup in the .45 Colt because Hodgdon swears it is position insensitive, and shot some extensively over a friend's chronograph to find out. I did a workup and got some of the worst 50-yard vertical stringing ever with that gun unless I pointed it skyward before each shot. If I did that, it made neat little groups, looked like the holes in a floor drain screen, and good numbers.

Gear
Gear

[Jack Stanley]

Gear , for what I am trying to do with the ammo I was hoping it wouldn't matter a great deal .

After working in my line of work for such a long time I've learned not to give a lot more information than needed . Many times the answer returned has nothing to do with the original question if I do . I did not intend to be less than clear . I was however , certain than someone here knew the answer that would save me a little work .

Thanks , Jack