Name that Powder

[SwedeNelson]

Have about 5 lbs of powder I would like to use.
Came from 8mm Mauser
I think it is Yugo Manufactured in 1951
Square flacks about 42 gr. behind a 198 Gr. FMJ.
Can any one give me any "load like" Info.

Best Regards
Swede Nelson

[Bullshop]

If you still have any loaded rounds fire a couple and chronograph. Check some load books and see what powders in the weight per load give that velocity with the same bullet weight/style. You can then get an idea of the burn rate and aplication of your pull down powder.
BIC/BS

[grumpy one]

Be careful taking the military factory load too seriously. I had some 30-06 milsurp that used a powder exactly like yours visually, and from memory the load was about the same too - 41 grains or so. Those were the fiercest 30-06s I've ever encountered; the noise was indistinguishable from a 7 mm mag, and the recoil was nasty. I wouldn't want to treat a load like that as a starting point for anything.

The label on mine was in French (I think that is where the ammunition was made), and the comment on the powder printed on the boxes was:
POUDRE BPa (0,3)D1C: 26-51-PB. The ammunition was dated 1952, so the last part of that is most likely a batch number. The first part might be some kind of type identifier, I wouldn't know.

Please don't do anything hasty that starts off with "Well, you use about 42 grains in an 8 mm". It might end badly.

Geoff

[waksupi]

Swede. I have a couple pounds of that, also. I have shot a lot of the ammo already in original configuration. I figured when I went to loading similar case size stuff, I would drop down to about 32-35 grains, and work up from there. Any less, and there could possibly be a SEE situation. Don't know, don't want to find out. I should chrony some of the original loads, and co-relate them to the burn charts, to see what speed of powder we are working with. FPS, divided by grains, will give you fps per grain of powder. But, this doesn't really tell us anything about pressure. Most of it I have shot, has been in my Hakim, and it does so many bad things to the brass, a little high pressure would just be another thing to look for on the cases, assuming you can find them. I will say, recovered brass does show some primer flattening, from this rifle. Never have shot it in any of my bolts, that I recall.

[SwedeNelson]

Bullshop
Will have to get the cronograph out and do some looking.
Thanks for the input.

Grumpyone
Thanks for the caution - we heed what you said!

Waksupi
The few rounds that I have shot were a little on the heavy
side. Even had one that the primer let go an blew all the oil
out of the bolt. Thats when I stated to pull it down.
Would like to see if I can get it to work with cast
If not it will have to green up the lawn.

Thanks Again All!
Swede Nelson

[9.3X62AL]

I would favor the lawn fertilizer route myself. Ya never know if this lot of ammo was machine-gun specific, meaning loaded to elevated pressures for that purpose.....or condemned due to over-pressure for that use or some other spec. Having reloaded practically all the ammo I've fired for the past 30 years or so, I have come to trust only factory loads of known origin and stuff I assemble myself, in that order. Regardless of cost, "mystery ammo" has no appeal for me.

[StarMetal]

If it's German (and some other countries) powder, their powder has been known to be very very stable long lasting stuff. Take a look at some the Nazis loaded 8x56R ammo that had made a go around the past few yrs. It was dated 1938. Fires greats. I pulled a few apart to see what was loaded in them. It was that square flake powder and what amazed me was the inside of the cases were shiney like gold and the powder dry and not clumped.

If you have alot of it I'd do what Waksupi said, take a small charge and load up a few and see what you get. Ric posted on the safe side, but in my opinion I don't believe they used any real real real slow powder in those. At least it's not a ball powder. If the powder still smells pretty fresh, shame to throw it away.

Joe

[grumpy one]

Hearing that there were 42 grains of the stuff with a 198 grain bullet, when it looked just like the stuff that made a fairly hot load with 41.4 grains behind a 150 grain bullet in my milsurp 30-06s, worried me considerably, then when Swede said it was ultra-hot it seemed to confirm the fears. It sounds like some kind of superload for a special purpose, such as MG, as Deputy Al said.

The powder in mine was in perfect condition, and seemed like great stuff. If 41.4 grains is a fairly stiff military load for a 150 grain bullet in a 30-06, it sure isn't any kind of slow powder. (Of course it may not have been the same powder, so I'm not making any promises here.) Comparing those French 30-06 loads with Kynoch milsurp 30-06 was chalk and cheese - the Kynoch stuff felt and sounded like cast bullet loads after the French ones.

Incidentally I fired all those French rounds except two I dismantled in the interests of science. No variability, no failures or incidents - I just wouldn't buy any more of them because the bullets seemed to be steel jacketed under the nickel plating, and combined with the hot load I'd rather be gentler on my barrel than that.

Geoff

[StarMetal]

I've told this here before, but it's good for another repeat. My best friend called me one day to go to the range. Had something he wanted to show me. He's sort of a mild collector of military guns. He had brought his German issue 98 Mauser along and two different manufactures of ammo. He said here's round number one, watch me shoot it, watch the muzzle flash, and watch it recoil. BOOM Seems pretty much normal, hardy any flash especially it being bright daylight. Then he says round number two, watch. BOOOOOM! Much louder boom, muzzle of the rifle jumps about 1 1/2 feet up, bright orange flash out of the muzzle to about 2-3 feet, and recoil rocked him back some. He said, well what do you think. I said number two looks alot hotter, what are they both. Well number one was regular issue 8x57 Mauser ammo. Number two was German machinegun issue 8x57 ammo. Now from what I was told the german machinegun ammo, not only being hotter, also fired a heavier bullet. Now I'm hearing your bullets are 198 gr. That's definately heavier then rifle issue 8x57. Sounds like you may have some machinegun ammo. So, that means the powder is still useable, just load it down. In fact you could put the bullets, drop the powder charge say 10 % and reload the same bullet again. Or tear them down and use the componants separately.

Joe

[w30wcf]

SwedeNelson,

Welcome to the forum!

I consulted Phil Sharpes very excellent book "Complete Guide To Handloading"
3rd edition dated 1953. He indicates that with the 196 gr. bullet in the 8MM, the following powders were used in the DWM loadings: 35.5 grs. Rottweil 5; 40.1 grs. Troisdorf 1910; 49.4 grs. Rottweil 2; and 54 grs. of "Special Powder P" to give velocities of 2,172, 2,332, and 2,625 f.p.s.(wow- my emphasis)

It could be that your 198 gr. cartridges contained a later version of Triosdorf rifle powder made in Germany, which is described in W.W. Greener's "The Gun And Its Development" as a flake powder.

I would agree that if the powder smells ok you could try some lesser loads of it with a cast bullet.

Have fun!

w30wcf

[lcg119]

I'm very late getting in on this thread....but, in case anyone is still interested....

IF the powder in question IS Yugoslav square flake military powder, from the Yugo 8 x 57 ammo (and it sounds like it is)....I can offer some advice. I have been buying the Yugo 8mm ammo for a couple of years....specifically for the purpose of pulling it down (to reuse the bullets and powder). The powder is good stuff - very consistent. The indications are that it is a medium-fast powder...somewhat faster than something like IMR-4895. Pressures with this powder climb very quickly, if more than 41 grains are used in the 8 x 57 cartridge (even with a lighter bullet). I did some testing with 170 grain jacketed bullets and the Yugo powder....and found that, even with the lighter bullet...43 grains definitely produced maximum pressure. 44 grains was certainly over- pressure. So, be very careful in using this powder....and I would not recommend loads above 41 grains with it - regardless of the bullet used.

Having said that, here are a couple of good loads, which I have found. Using the 198 grain FMJ bullet, 34 grains of the Yugoslav powder produces very good accuracy in my M48b... at either 50 or 100 yards. For a lighter load, try 27.0 grains of the Yugo powder (again, with the 198 grain bullet)....with .5 grains of dacron filler added. This very mild load is dead-nuts accurate in my M48 (in fact, it is the most accurate load combination I've ever found with the Yugo powder and Yugo bullet....and makes a very nice target load).

The Yugo powder can certainly be used with other bullets, but, as I said, be very careful with ANY loads at or above 41 grains. I have about 3 lbs of the Yugo powder left, myself....and I have been itching to try it behind some 150 grain bullets (the Hornady 150 gr. .323" SP, to be exact)....as my M48 loves this bullet...and it has become my "standard" hunting bullet. Alas, I have a very good load with IMR-4895 and the Hornady bullet already....so I have not tried the Yugo powder, as of yet. I am now working on some light cast bullet loads with the Yugo powder...used with dacron filler. I have no definitive results to report on this, (yet), though.

As I said, the Yugo powder appears to be a medium-fast powder....so the dacron filler may not, in fact, be needed...for loads in the 20 - 30 grain range. However, I have found good accuracy and no adverse effects with the dacron, as of yet....so I have heretofore not tested such light loads without the dacron.

[SwedeNelson]

Thanks
Very good info.
Just starting to play with it my self.

Swede Nelson

[singleshotbuff]

I too use this powder, pulled down from Yugo ammo. It is a good medium burning powder, but is definately faster than 4895. Of course this only applies to my specific lot, as I'm sure there are variances. I've only used it in 8X57mm, but plan to try it in some other cartridges this spring.

Of course, all cautions should be used when working with an unkown powder. A chronograph is a MUST, as well as a fairly good understanding of reloading and pressure.

Please be careful. No powder, no matter how cheap, is worth wrecking a gun, or worse.

Just my 2 cents worth, not trying to discourage anyone. Just want to make sure everyone remembers what we're dealing with here.

SSB

[milsurpcollector1970]

I've told this here before, but it's good for another repeat. My best friend called me one day to go to the range. Had something he wanted to show me. He's sort of a mild collector of military guns. He had brought his German issue 98 Mauser along and two different manufactures of ammo. He said here's round number one, watch me shoot it, watch the muzzle flash, and watch it recoil. BOOM Seems pretty much normal, hardy any flash especially it being bright daylight. Then he says round number two, watch. BOOOOOM! Much louder boom, muzzle of the rifle jumps about 1 1/2 feet up, bright orange flash out of the muzzle to about 2-3 feet, and recoil rocked him back some. He said, well what do you think. I said number two looks alot hotter, what are they both. Well number one was regular issue 8x57 Mauser ammo. Number two was German machinegun issue 8x57 ammo. Now from what I was told the german machinegun ammo, not only being hotter, also fired a heavier bullet. Now I'm hearing your bullets are 198 gr. That's definately heavier then rifle issue 8x57. Sounds like you may have some machinegun ammo. So, that means the powder is still useable, just load it down. In fact you could put the bullets, drop the powder charge say 10 % and reload the same bullet again. Or tear them down and use the componants separately.

Joe


Using the bullet weight as a guide is incorrect, The Germans switched to a 198 gr bullet for all 8mm mauser ammo toward the end of WW I.



The Yugo suplus that I have seen was all on stripper clips.

[RoyRogers]

I am pulling 55 Yugo right now. It is pretty consistent in weight varying between 41.4-41.52gr from randomly weighed samples. Powder looks great & I would say it seems between 3031 & 4895 in speed.

I have not tried it to power a cast bullet since I just got into cast bullets but wondered if anyone here has done so?

900 rds was going for $49 per tin from CAI for a year or two with free shipping for orders over $500 ($12 shipping for orders under $500)

Anyway, 900rds gives me just shy of 6lbs of good powder, 900 nice boat tail bullets, & ~ $18-20 in scrap brass. Pretty good deal. I can't imagine pulling it down with an inertia puller but it is not bad with an RCBS collet puller.

12-53 Yugo is some of my favorite surplus & shoots as good or better than 70's in several of my guns. Some other years from the 50s are almost as good as 70's but I will end up pulling most of mine over time to fire in boxer cases.

[Andy_P]

Do not throw away the powder! :shock:
Do not use an interia puller

Here's a pull-down method even faster and easier than a collet puller. Use only if you intend to sell the brass for scrap:

- get a thick (1/4"+) piece of metal bar and drill a 5/16" hole through it
- clamp it to a sturdy bench with the hole overhanging about 3"
- take a cartridge to be pulled by the base, and insert it bullet-end first into the hole from the bottom, right up to the bullet-neck juncture
- move the base back and forth a couple of inches in one direction, and then again 90 degrees to the original direction. The bullet will be held stationary by the metal bar, and moving the base of the bulet will distort (enlarge) the neck
- remove the cartridge keeping it upright
- remove the bullet with your fingers (if still too tight, re-insert and repeat), and drop it into Container A
- dump the powder into Container B
- dump the brass into Container C. Fill it with water and let it soak for at least 24 hrs. The water will deactivate the primer. Drain, dry, and then take the brass to the recylcer.

[RoyRogers]

The powder is good wwII flake powder - it will be used to push bullets downrange :-D :Fire:

I use a RCBS collet puller which is pretty fast. I hate to bugger up brass cases unless they are worthless. Who knows - I may even reload these one day instead of scrapping them. No wonder I have sooo much stuff in my shop:???:

The steel plate method works good but can dent bullets. A piece of hardwood drilled to the right diameter is easier on the bullet.

[richbug]

I am still sitting on 18,000 rounds of this stuff. Bullets are getting pulled by hand, is use an empty case, slip the mouth over the bullet of a live round bend back and forth a few degrees, remove bullet with fingers, drop in one can, pour powder in another, drop case in a third.

I can do a case of ammo at a leisurely pace while watching an evenings worth of TV.


The bullets are really nice, and get loaded into commercial brass with Varget, for my 8x57 Garand.

Likely start using the powder for cast rifle loads.

The brass and primers are poor at best. Brass goes to the recycler for $1.20/pound, after I cook off the primers.





Did a similar project a while ago with the Albanian 7.62R. Used the bullets in my 303's, and used the powder in everything from 223 to 30-06.

[Andy_P]

There's just something about salvaging material - whether it be converting wheelweights into ingots, or surplus ammo into powder, bullets and brass. We'll happily invest hours of effort to save a few bucks and enjoy every mindless minute.

As for surplus powder, all the stuff I've encountered has been flake with a burn rate in the vicinity of IMR4064, a wonderfully useful powder that can be used effectively in every rifle round conceivable.

[RoyRogers]

There's just something about salvaging material - whether it be converting wheelweights into ingots, or surplus ammo into powder, bullets and brass. We'll happily invest hours of effort to save a few bucks and enjoy every mindless minute.

That just about sums it up...well said