Alloying Copper into Lead-Tin

[303Guy]

It's so easy it should be illegal! After reading and talking and looking up on the 'net, I decided to try adding copper to an already pretty good pot of alloy which is presumably lead-tin.

I took a piece of copper I had, tinned it with soft electical solder and submerged it into the melt. The melt has Kitty Litter on top and I fluxed with a stick, leaving a carbon rich layer close to the metal surface. The copper dissolved into the melt and that was it!

End results - benefits or changes? Well, the casting seem harder than before and also seem to harden quicker. There is no loss of ductility. The most noticable difference is the color of the sprue plugs. Very colorful whereas before they were shiny silver. There is a slight difference in the appearance of the castings but only slight. More than that, I don't know. I'll see how the castings harden or toughen or even soften over time.

[Changeling]

It's so easy it should be illegal! After reading and talking and looking up on the 'net, i decided to try adding copper to an already pretty goold pot of alloy which is presumably lead-tin.

I took a piece of copper I had, tinned it with soft electical solder and submerged it into the melt. The melt has Kitty Litter on top and I fluxed with a stick, leaving a carbon rich layer close to the metal surface. The copper dissolved into the melt and that was it!

End results - benefits or changes? Well, the casting seem harder than before and also seem to harden quicker. There is no loss of ductility. The most noticable difference is the color of the sprue plugs. Very colorful whereas before they were shiny silver. There is a slight difference in the appearance of the castings but only slight. More than that, I don't know. I'll see how the castings harden or toughen or even soften over time.

I find this very interesting. How much copper (weight) did you add to the lead mix and how much of a lead mix (weight)?
Why did you "tin" the copper before adding?

Somewhere I read when pouring bullets from an alloy like this (babbitt) it should be continuously stirred to keep the copper in "suspension".

Really interested in what the more experienced guys have to say. Thanks for sharing your experiment/information.

[robroy]

I've been in a dither about getting copper melted with what I have at hand to the same end. Seems you've found the solution (no pun intended but those are the best kind). What are the weights of components?

[jaguarxk120]

I'm wondering at what temperature the melt was and what it will take to remelt it?

[303Guy]

OK. Firstly, I did not jump in blind-folded. I did do some research first.

Copper is slightly soluble in lead and readily soluble in tin. The idea of tinning the copper is to put it in contact with the melt. Without tinning, it is insulated by a layer of oxide. So, once tinned, it will dissolve up and until saturation point at the temperature of the melt. What it does is the same as tin and that is to reduce the melting poing of the lead and hense improve it's fluidity - the same as tin does. Upon freezing, it adds toughness to the lead. Too much copper and it precipitates out and that is where problems occur. I'm looking for something like less than half a percent copper (I forget the solubility limit and couldn'd find it on the net with a quick search). As for actual quantities - who knows? I just guessed at an amount. I can work it out but I don't have a scale capable of measuring the lead but I can measure it's volume. I just haven't done it yet as this was a test to dissolve the copper. It's in there - it makes for very a pretty coloured oxide skin. And a nice boolit! One that hardens quicker than before the copper.

Melt temperature? Normal casting temp.

The fired boolit was a cat sneeze load into soft sand. It's expansion belies the apparent hardness of the boolit. (Unless it's a lot faster than its supposed to be!) 100% weight retention.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/LedTinCopperAlloy.jpg The sprew was from without copper.

[trk]

Interesting1 I have a bunch of lead-free electronic solder scrap. Started as 96.5 tin, 3%silver and 0.5%copper.

[GabbyM]

This is something I'l have to try.
Had some material with copper once. Duh old brain. Whaterver it was it made great bullets.
Have tried dropping copper wire onto the melt but it just lays there. Tin it then place it under clay.

When I tried kitty litter it seamed to draw off my alloy metal. bullets got softer as the pot lingered with clay on top. But that was in no way a scientific test.

[303Guy]

Tin it then place it under clay.Actually submerge it in the melt. It dissoves slowly.


lead-free electronic solder scrap. Started as 96.5 tin, 3%silver and 0.5%copper. I think the copper and silver are to lower the melting point.

[lwknight]

I thought that the silver was just improve the continuity so that the connections would not get as hot under a load.

[sagacious]

The silver doubtless improves electical conductivity. It also strengthens the solder and believe it also prevents tin-whisker formation, which is a very serious problem when there's no lead in there.

The copper further strengthens the solder and likely increases conductivity. It could also increase the corrosion-resistance, decrease galvanic differential with copper plumbing, decrease solubility and erosion of joints in soft-water areas, and reduce copper-scavenging in wave-soldering applications. Often adding a very small amount of one element to a solvent reduces the aggressiveness the solvent to dissolves more.

This stuff can get pretty complicated. It's another example of very small changes having significant effects.

[madsenshooter]

Ideal #1 alloy was 3% Cu. I've been using a lead based babbitt, Stonewall Babbitt, that contains .5% Cu. I use it mainly to add Sn and Sb to pure lead. How would Cu decrease the melt temp? Can't see that happening.

[lwknight]

If lead melts at 620 and 4% tin added lowers it to 550 then you would think that adding 12% antimony would raise it but he opposite happens. It will melt at about 480. ( btw: thats lino)
So why couldn't a small amount of copper actually lower the melting point.

One thing for sure is that too much copper will make your tin into brass which certainly don't melt easily compared to tin or even lead.

[sagacious]

How would Cu decrease the melt temp? Can't see that happening.
Keep looking, you'll see it once you've read this post. :) Many metal combinations (alloys) that are even slightly miscible have a eutectic point.

If there is a eutectic point, then there's a point where adding some of the higher melting point metal actually reduces the melting point of the lower melting-point metal.

It's not really a "melting-point" addition/subtraction situation. It's the chemical and thermodynamic properties of the mixture that determine the melting point. One cannot just say, OK, it's 90% tin and 10% copper, so the melting point must equal to 90% of tin's melting point plus 10% of copper's melting point. Doesn't work that way with most metals. Does work that way with gold/silver alloy, but that's not the usual situation.

Consider that the melting/freezing point of water is 32*F. Consider also that the melting point of salt is way high. But mix salt into water and the melting/freezing point plummets to something like -6*F. Salt and water actually have a eutectic point, which is about 25% salt and 75% water. So, now ya know! Regards, and good luck.

[303Guy]

it also prevents tin-whisker formationAh yes, I remember reading that. Also about reducing the electrical resistance of the joint. Very complicated!:veryconfu Specially for a mere mortal such as myself.

sagacious, are you a metalurgist or metalurgical chemist or chemist something? You know way too much to be a mere mortal!:mrgreen: You've got a broad knowledge base and a deep insight into things.:drinks:

[madsenshooter]

Hmm, I see. The alloys I've worked up that contain around .5% Cu are good for 2450fps, that's as far as I've gone with the Eagan MX3-30AR in my K31. This thread is interesting, I've had lots of fellows tell me how to get Cu into the melt, but generally their ideas didn't work as well as expected. Can't wait for you to get a bit more scientific 303guy. I'm getting to the age that I have a lot of tin-whiskers myself, silver helps that? Not a claim I've seen for colloidal silver yet! I could stand to have some of the electrical resistance of my joints reduced too! Just playing with words, feel free to ignore me.

[Edubya]

It's so easy it should be illegal! After reading and talking and looking up on the 'net, i decided to try adding copper to an already pretty goold pot of alloy which is presumably lead-tin.

I took a piece of copper I had, tinned it with soft electrical solder and submerged it into the melt. The melt has Kitty Litter on top and I fluxed with a stick, leaving a carbon rich layer close to the metal surface. The copper dissolved into the melt and that was it!

End results - benefits or changes? Well, the casting seem harder than before and also seem to harden quicker. There is no loss of ductility. The most noticable difference is the color of the sprue plugs. Very colorful whereas before they were shiny silver. There is a slight difference in the appearance of the castings but only slight. More than that, I don't know. I'll see how the castings harden or toughen or even soften over time.

I have read the entire thread and there is one simple sentence that I have not figured out "I took a piece of copper I had, tinned it with soft electrical solder". How does one "tin copper"?

EW

[DukeInFlorida]

"Tinning" is the process of coating one metal with another. It doesn't need to be specifically tin that you coat things with. The term came from the old methods of coating steel cans with tin, making.... "tin cans".....

The term tinning is also used in the electrical industry, where tinning copper is a way of keeping the copper from oxidizing. Marine grade wiring, for example, has a tin coating on the copper wires, so the copper doesn't turn black in the damp environment. Use marine grade wiring on boats, not un-tinned automotive grade wiring.

Typically, in exactly the same way as you solder copper pipe fittings onto copper pipe.... you FLUX the copper (liquid flux is easiest with this smelting thing), and then apply the tinning alloy with a torch, spreading it around to coat the surface. Once the tinned copper is prepped, you can dunk it in your melt.

Your jacketed bullets are copper (typically), so the addition of some copper in your cast alloy shouldn't hurt your bore at all.


I have read the entire thread and there is one simple sentence that I have not figured out "I took a piece of copper I had, tinned it with soft electrical solder". How does one "tin copper"?

EW

[Changeling]

I would really be interested in a formula that would produce a mixture of copper consistently the same, without the consistency there could be accuracy and other problems. Would also be nice to know the strength/hardness of a mixture to see what direction things are going.

303Guy, are you going to continue testing your find concerning copper ?

[Edubya]

Thank you Duke. You cleared that up a lot better than I could have asked for.

EW

[303Guy]

Thanks Duke, you said it way better than I could.

I will be continuing with this copper trial thing yes. To get a consistent copper content, assuming there is no copper in the melt already (pretty coloured skin formation), it's a simple matter of weighing the pot contents, and calculating the required copper weight. It's a small amount.

Copper is used as a bearing metal constituent (babbit) so it can only be good for the bore.

One can add zinc in the same way or much more readily available, add brass to get both copper and zinc. Zinc hardens the lead and also makes it more brittle so not good for a hunting boolit. My idea of lead-tin-copper is for a strong and ductile hunting boolit.

[robroy]

I think I'll tin my copper with the solder I plan on adding to the alloy and come up with a (somewhat) precise mix. Testing the toughness in a quantitative way is the poser.

[lwknight]

One can add zinc in the same way or much more readily available, add brass to get both copper and zinc. Zinc hardens the lead and also makes it more brittle so not good for a hunting boolit. My idea of thos lead-tin-copper is for a strong and ductile hunting boolit.
__________________

Actually copper-zinc make bronze and brass is made from copper and tin.

[felix]

You got the definitions backwards, LW. ... felix

[sagacious]

'Tother way around. Generally, Cu+Sn= bronze, and Cu+Zn= brass.

[sagacious]

...
One can add zinc in the same way or much more readily available, add brass to get both copper and zinc. Zinc hardens the lead and also makes it more brittle so not good for a hunting boolit. My idea of thos lead-tin-copper is for a strong and ductile hunting boolit.
Better test those ideas thoroughly before folks start mixing up a witches' brew.

I'm with ya somewhat on the zinc, but the brass may not work as well. Brass has different chemical properties than Cu or Zn, and that includes solubility. Tinning and dissolving a 30-06 case in a pot of lead may not be a snap. The addition of both zinc and copper to the melt may (is likely to) also have totally unanticipated effects, and not just bring the 'best' of copper and the 'best' of zinc into the alloy. Test it and see how it goes.

[lwknight]

You got the definitions backwards, LW. ... felix

Show Nuff, I did.
BRass is about 63% zinc

[sagacious]

Show Nuff, I did.
BRass is about 63% zinc
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! 303Guy is going to figure out that beat-up thrift store silverware is actually silverplated brass, and he'll have us trying to make these recipes:

10lbs lead
3ozs tin
two silverplated soup spoons and a seafood fork
Makes 11 lbs Lyman #2 alloy

9lbs stick-on ww's
1lb linotype
One silverplated butterknife and a gravy ladle
Makes 11lbs 'hardball' alloy

:drinks:

[303Guy]

Hee hee! :bigsmyl2:

Actually, I wouldn't want zinc in my mix anyway - I'm not after hardening.

OK, so brass won't disolve in the same way as copper or zinc on their own. Would bronze? (Too much copper but I'm just interested).

The real question is whether there is any benefit from adding copper to the alloy.:rolleyes:

[sagacious]

OK, so brass won't disolve in the same way as copper or zinc on their own. Would bronze? (Too much copper but I'm just interested).
Lots of different kinds of bronze, but if it was a straight copper/tin bronze, then I suspect that it likely would dissolve with your tinning method. One really needs to know what's in the bronze/brass/etc alloy, as it may contain silicon, aluminum, phosphorous, arsenic, or who-knows-what.


The real question is whether there is any benefit from adding copper to the alloy.:rolleyes:
Here, here! That's no small question. You may have to invest in a lead hardness tester to better track your findings. I tried the lead/copper alloy routine back in the late 1980's, and found nothing that tin/antimony/arsenic cannot do better and easier, but perhaps you can tease out some useful applications. I hear claims, which is good, but I have seen no comparative tests.

You might try tinning the copper wire from some old bore-brushes and dissolve it into a lead melt. The wire is phosphor bronze, and it'd be interesting to see if the tiny phosporus component produced a noticeable effect in the alloy. I believe it is soluble, and it may even increase the solubility of copper in lead, but have never seen anything written about this.

[geargnasher]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! 303Guy is going to figure out that beat-up thrift store silverware is actually silverplated brass, and he'll have us trying to make these recipes:

10lbs lead
3ozs tin
two silverplated soup spoons and a seafood fork
Makes 11 lbs Lyman #2 alloy

9lbs stick-on ww's
1lb linotype
One silverplated butterknife and a gravy ladle
Makes 11lbs 'hardball' alloy

:drinks:

LMAO!!!

Nuttin' like a little metallurgist's humour at two in the morning!

Gear

[303Guy]

I have now done some estimations of how much copper went into my alloy. It looks like 0.07%. Some 7 grams into 37000 grams of lead. The amount of tin added was around 16 grams - 0.4%.

I'm busy making up a new lot. This time, I have melted down 5kg of lead pipe and have prepped 6.5 grams of copper for dissolving - for which I now waiting. I've adde to the melt without the tin because I am suspicious of the pureness of that lead. I cast a few sample boolits with it as melted and they come out a little harder than expected. I don't have a known pure lead sample to compare with.

This is how I do my comparisons. The method seems to be quite consistant.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/HardnessTester.jpg

I'll report back later with more findings.

[303Guy]

OK this is crazy! :!:

I'm talking lead drain pipe. Just what's supposed to be in it? It was pretty soft as a pipe. Now, three hours after casting, it has become harder! The remainder of the pot has 7 grams of copper dissolved in it. Castings from that started out with the same hardness as without copper. An hour later they are even harder than without the copper. Water quenched castings were as hard as the copper free are now. After an hour they are harder but still softer than the air cooled copper castings after an hour! What gives? This is getting more and more confusing! By the way, the castings are real nice and shiny.

Oh, the addition of copper did not produce the colours the last lot gained after adding copper. I'll have to do a test firing into sand in the morning. (If I don't get called to go work).

[lwknight]

The ingots that I made from lead pipe were harder than pure lead but still pretty soft.
There might be a little arsenic and antimony in it.

[GabbyM]

Usually have joints in pipe containing tin solder.
Any pipes or roofing metal I've ever had was much harder than pure lead.
I've some cable sheathing that is pure.

[303Guy]

So it would seem then that the lead pipe I am handling is work softened. I am keeping the soldered joints separate - that's my source of tin. So, would adding tin actually soften it then? And hopefully make it tougher?

Well then, maybe I have found a sustainable source of boolit lead. Wheel weights are like hens teeth (fishermen, you know;) ). All the alloy has to do is expand properly and hold together.

[StarMetal]

303guy,

You sure that pipe lead work softens?

[303Guy]

Well, the lead was as soft as when I handled it and now that I've melted it down and cast a few sample boolits it's as hard as (by my standards and it hardened quite rapidly after casting whether it was water quenched or not. So no, I am not sure of anything!

[sagacious]

OK this is crazy! :!:

I'm talking lead drain pipe. Just what's supposed to be in it? It was pretty soft as a pipe. Now, three hours after casting, it has become harder!
This is normal and expectable. Lead pipe often has a percent or two of antimony. This is also true with lead sheet. Lead pipe and lead sheet could be almost anything, and it's very possible that it's recycled battery lead.

The extrusion process invariably softens the lead. The hardness of the lead pipe before melting and casting into ingots is not representative of the alloy constituents. The commonly-repeated belief that lead pipe is pure lead is not always true.

You'll need to know how much Sb is in your alloy to be able to discern any hardening from copper, especially since your Sb component may be 50 times greater than your copper component. Trying to tease some solid understanding of what effect about 0.05% copper has without starting with pure lead is going to be very, very difficult.

Not trying to discourage. Good luck.

[AbitNutz]

What would happen if you threw copper plated shot in? Is there enough copper to be of use? If it melted you would at least be able to be consistent.

I went out to Rotometal and found this: http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/alloy_copper_hard_babbitt.htm

It's likely silly expensive but at 36% Tin with 51% Lead, 1% Copper and 12% Antimony. Melt Temp Around 360 deg F. You could work out a formula for adding pure lead to make this work.

[lwknight]

Abitnutx, the math is easy.
What result would you like to have. I'll make you the recipe.

[303Guy]

Well, I tried two boolits from this alloy, firing them into fine sand.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/LEADPIPEALLOY.jpg 85% weight retention.

I'll compare it to the previous lead pipe lot and to an earlier and much softer alloy and see the difference in sand - not the same as in wet pack of flesh.

[jleneave]

OK, this may be way out there but I have to ask. I have a crapload of copper jackets that I have skimmed off the top while melting down indoor range scrap. How hot would the temp have to be to melt these jackets down and pour into ingots or is this a stupid idea? If this is not feasible I may try to sell them as scrap or trade them to the scrap yard for lead. 303guy I hope I am not hijacking your thread and apologize if I am. Thanks

Jody

[sagacious]

Jody,
It's not as easy as one might hope. Working with molten copper is extremely dangerous. You'll need to get it to over 2000*F to pour, and that's serious stuff. Try your local scrap metal dealer. Good luck.

[jleneave]

Jody,
It's not as easy as one might hope. Working with molten copper is extremely dangerous. You'll need to get it to over 2000*F to pour, and that's serious stuff. Try your local scrap metal dealer. Good luck.

That's what I was afraid of. Sounds like it will be easier to try and sell or trade with the scrap yard. Thanks again!

Jody

[303Guy]

Jody

It's about guns and shooting and boolits which makes it right on topic to me!:drinks:

[lwknight]

Maybe we could throw some zinc-cloride on the melt and just dissolve the copper into the alloy.

Somehow, zinc cloride makes lead/tin bond to just about anything , steel included

[docone31]

Melting copper is simple.
You need heat. Charcoal will get you there, or a propane flame. You will need a crucible, furnace, and sand mold for the copper.
It is fun to do, not the first time, but it is fun.
You cannot alloy into lead with that heat though. You will need a catilyst to bring the copper into soluable alloy.
Cost much more than you will recieve.

[sagacious]

Melting copper is simple.
You need heat. Charcoal will get you there, or a propane flame. You will need a crucible, furnace, and sand mold for the copper.
It is fun to do, not the first time, but it is fun.
You cannot alloy into lead with that heat though. You will need a catilyst to bring the copper into soluable alloy.
Cost much more than you will recieve.
Likewise, melting steel is "simple."
You need heat, charcoal, and a crucible. It is fun to do.

I'm not sure what is meant by the vague statement "need a catilyst to bring the copper into soluable alloy." No catalyst will alloy Cu/Pb into solid solution, as this is a misunderstanding of the term catalyst.

Responsibility compels me to comment strenuously on this subject. Melting copper, brass alloys, or bronze alloys is exceedingly dangerous. This is not a project for newbies, or those unfamiliar with the process. It is borderline irresponsible to suggest that pouring molten copper is just a "simple" matter of fuel, flame, and fun. I'm sure there are people who melt copper in their garage while wearing tennis shorts and using oven mits as gloves, but that's hardly an adequate recommendation for a casual aproach to foundry practice.

I have poured many a crucible of copper and copper alloys. It requires speialized techniques and knowledge to be successful, and a sober attitude about safety practices and the serious consequences and dangers posed by working with 2000+*F molten metal. Anything less is a recipe for disaster, and anyone competent in foundry practice is aware of this.

Let's all continue to recommend only safe practices to newbies, or encourage newbies to study their plans thoroughly before undertaking more demanding metal-pouring challenges. Molten lead can be dangerous enough, and copper is a world away from lead. Good luck, and stay safe.

[Storydude]

Likewise, melting steel is "simple."
You need heat, charcoal, and a crucible. It is fun to do.

I'm not sure what is meant by the vague statement "need a catilyst to bring the copper into soluable alloy." No catalyst will alloy Cu/Pb into solid solution, as this is a misunderstanding of the term catalyst.

Responsibility compels me to comment strenuously on this subject. Melting copper, brass alloys, or bronze alloys is exceedingly dangerous. This is not a project for newbies, or those unfamiliar with the process. It is borderline irresponsible to suggest that pouring molten copper is just a "simple" matter of fuel, flame, and fun. I'm sure there are people who melt copper in their garage while wearing tennis shorts and using oven mits as gloves, but that's hardly an adequate recommendation for a casual aproach to foundry practice.

I have poured many a crucible of copper and copper alloys. It requires speialized techniques and knowledge to be successful, and a sober attitude about safety practices and the serious consequences and dangers posed by working with 2000+*F molten metal. Anything less is a recipe for disaster, and anyone competent in foundry practice is aware of this.

Let's all continue to recommend only safe practices to newbies, or encourage newbies to study their plans thoroughly before undertaking more demanding metal-pouring challenges. Molten lead can be dangerous enough, and copper is a world away from lead. Good luck, and stay safe.

Yep. Difference between "Oooow, that hurt..." and "Honey, call 911 I burned my foot off"

[jleneave]

303Guy, Thanks for letting me use your thread for my question.

Everyone who replied to my post, thanks for the information. I don't think that I will attempt to melt down my copper jackets. It sounds like a very complicated process. I am not ready or prepared to undertake a task of this size. I will try to sell them for scrap or trade them for lead to my local scrap yard. Thanks again to all that replied to my question and for looking out for my well being!!

Jody

[docone31]

If you are ever interested, or just curious, there are some great sites on foundry set ups.
It is complicated, but can be mastered.
You would start with aluminum, then jump up to copper. The principles are the same, but, the heat recquired is an eye opener. People tend to be careful by themselves at that heat. If nothing else, you will see how it is done. That alone is fascinating.
U-tube has lots of videos.
Let them do the work. Watching is easy.

[sagacious]

Yes, a splash of lead is one thing, a splash of copper quite another.

That's the right way to approach this subject. Start with lead, then zinc, then aluminum, silver, aluminum bronze and other copper alloys, etc. The heat required as the list advances becomes ferocious. A strong cast-iron pot may crumble or melt when heated to brass-pouring temps. The wrong equipment can be more than an inconvenience, it can be a disaster and cause serious injury.

[jleneave]

Docone31, I will check out those YouTube videos. Thanks for the info.

Sagacious, I was hoping that it would be about as easy as melting lead, but I can now see that I am nowhere near prepared to get into melting down copper, equipment or knowledge wise. Thanks for the reply.

Jody

[sagacious]

You might check around your area and see if there's someone who does foundry work, or casts brass for sculpture work of something similar, and see if you could drop by to take a look. Your local scrap metal dealer might know who pours brass/bronze/etc locally. It's interesting stuff. Most of the folks who do it are passionate about it and happy to show and tell a bit. Good luck.

[jleneave]

You might check around your area and see if there's someone who does foundry work, or casts brass for sculpture work of something similar, and see if you could drop by to take a look. Your local scrap metal dealer might know who pours brass/bronze/etc locally. It's interesting stuff. Most of the folks who do it are passionate about it and happy to show and tell a bit. Good luck.

Thanks, I never thought of that (slapping self on forehead!). I will do some checking and see what I can find out. Thanks again.

Jody

[303Guy]

I found out what the eutectic for lead-copper is at our temperatures - it's 0.06%. That's the solubiity of copper into lead. It's not much but it does explain the rediculous hardness I have with my latest alloy which should be fairly soft. This alloy hardened within hours and continued to harden for some time and seems to have stabilized now. Yet it is not brittle at all.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/20gr2205_146PP.jpg

[sagacious]

As solubility in lead decreases, hardening ability increases.

This is why tin-- which is very soluble in lead-- does not increase hardness much, but antimony-- which has less solubility than tin-- can increase hardness to a far greater degree.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks 303 guy, sorta explains why the boolits I have made with Stonewall babbit, which contains .5% Cu are hard, but not brittle. A little light, but some added Pb should take care of that. The babbitt bullets are good for 2450fps no problem, that's as high as I've gone so far.

[a.squibload]

Please forgive hijack, you reminded me of these.
Pretty sure they're copper, is there an easy way to tell?
I think they're electrical items, the plate came with. Seems heavy.
(Plate is 1/4 x 4 x 8 in., 2 lbs 10 oz)
Won't send them to recycle if there's a boolit-related use for 'em.

Was thinking this could alloy into many pots, will wait for 303guy's results.

Or maybe make huge gas checks?

[303Guy]

Well, copper polishes up real easy with some Brasso and cleans up real well with acid solder flux when hot. A salt solution makes it turn a greenish color. Cutting or filing it would expose the clean metal. Copper is unmistakable - beautiful stuff really. (I have another batch of lead pipe and soldered joints to melt down and alloy with copper - I'll alloy half of it so I can make a comparison.)

[sagacious]

Please forgive hijack, you reminded me of these.
Pretty sure they're copper, is there an easy way to tell?

Yes, that's copper all right. Copper for electrical use is usually pure, virgin copper, and not recycled material.

[Ron.D]

This is a very interesting read. I remember buying some bulk lead scrap from a lead foundry. It was lead "came" The leading used in lead windows. The .06% figure that 303 guy came up with is exactly the copper content in the window lead. Also .45% antimony. I shot a black bear with this alloy +3% tin added. The bullet retained 100% weight and expanded nicely, but I'd have expected that with or without the copper in the alloy. Velocity was only 1380 ft /sec. It'd be interesting to see if this copper containing alloy could help achieve higher velocities while remaining malleable, than alloys without it. Ron.D

[Charlie Sometimes]

Not to get off topic again, but to those who mentioned it, the lube you are using on the boolit will make a lot of difference in the ability of the boolit to withstand HV and not lead your barrel. I go to to 2700 fps regularly and have no problems with leading or accuracy.

I have wondered about the effects of Cu found in babbit alloys when it used to make boolits- I am reading and following this thread with great interest! Keep up the good work guys! :grin:

[runfiverun]

you guy's see post #56.
think about that for a bit.
low solubility and hardening.
it works for copper and zinc and other such stuff like silver too.
anything that does not add brittleness to the alloy will allow you to make a tougher stronger alloy
that will withstand higher pressures.
it will resist skidding in the bbl and still will allow the alloy to remain malleable when striking an object.

you guy's have seen the lamp cord that comes in copper on one side and silver on the other right?
well the silver side is tinned copper strands.

[Charlie Sometimes]

you guy's see post #56.
think about that for a bit.
low solubility and hardening.
it works for copper and zinc and other such stuff like silver too.
anything that does not add brittleness to the alloy will allow you to make a tougher stronger alloy
that will withstand higher pressures.
it will resist skidding in the bbl and still will allow the alloy to remain malleable when striking an object.

you guy's have seen the lamp cord that comes in copper on one side and silver on the other right?
well the silver side is tinned copper strands.

Usually, just the connection ends of cords. It's too expensive and time consuming to to put that into every cord. Tinning wires, and also the tracks on circuit boards, provide better connections, better heat resistance, more capacity for current, and resistance to corrosion in electrical circuits, IIRC.

My 225415 boolits that I have fired from near max 22 Hornet loads (around 2650 fps) were accurate, did not lead barrel and had the ability to penetrate 3/16 inch of a 3/8 mild steel plate. Alloy is around a 12 in hardness, IIRC. Of course, there is nothing left of the boolit, but the divot! :mrgreen: Hardness is realitve when speed is added.

[a.squibload]

you guy's have seen the lamp cord that comes in copper on one side and silver on the other right?
well the silver side is tinned copper strands.

I've also seen that sold as speaker wire, see-through insulation, makes it easy to get the + and - hooked up right.

[Charlie Sometimes]

FYI- on lamp cords, there is one side that has ridges in the plastic running the outside length of the cord to indicate polarity (neutral side, IIRC).

[a.squibload]

Yep, seen that. Have also seen some DC-type wire that had dashes on one conductor, control cabinet wire I think.

I reread most of this thread, hoping we bump it enough 'til that antique-shootin' Kiwi gets his new alloys tested! :-o
Also looks like Robroy is formulating one.

Now I'm wondering about the sheet lead I got, 'til now I thought all sheet lead was gonna make soft boolits
(was gonna use it for slugging bores).
Might have to evaluate it's usefulness after casting a few with JUST the sheet stuff.
Also if my stash turns out to be harder than I thought, I won't need to alloy the copper into it
(unless 303guy finds the ductility improvement formula),
and if what I have is pure copper I might just trade/sell it for primers or something.

Sagacious, testing copper with salt solution reminded me to test the suspect pewter item, I think you said
a little salt and citric acid in H2O would make hydrochloric, which would bubble on zinc?
As long as the swamp cooler is running it should be safe enough!

[a.squibload]

Just a quick add:

Someone on here was sellin' assayed ingots, I wonder about cost of commercial pure lead vs
cost of assaying some pipe or sheet lead?
Lab work is gonna be expensive, need control specimens.
Might have to call him "303MadScientistGuy".

OK I'll stop for a while.

[robroy]

Tin and antimony form a binary metalic compound.

This raises some questions for me i.e.:
1) do tin and copper form a similar compound?
2) does the formation of a binary compound change the miscability (sp?) fo its constituants in the solution( alloy)
3)What is the eutectic of copper in tin if it does not make a bianary compound?

I'm not sure where to go with all these questions or even if they matter to the pursuit of tough boolits. I'm just a curious sort (double meanings intended.):bigsmyl2:

[Dannix]

Hum, with a high Antimony alloy, you can heat treat plus water quench, to yield a hard shell and a softer core, which a Pb/Sn/Cu alloy could not replicate as far as I know.

[sagacious]

Tin and antimony form a bianary metalic compound.

This raises some questions for me i.e.:
1) do tin and copper form a similar compound?
Yes, CuSn.

2) does the formation of a bianary compound change the miscability (sp?) fo its constituants in the solution( alloy)
Not exactly sure what you're asking. The formation of the binary compound is a result of the miscibility of it's constituents.

3)What is the eutectic of copper in tin if it does not make a bianary compound?
The Sn/Cu eutectic is Sn99.3/Cu0.7.


I'm not sure where to go with all these questions or even if they matter to the pursuit of tough boolits. I'm just a curious sort (double meanings intended.):bigsmyl2:
First, someone needs to demonstrate unambiguously that copper 'toughens' lead bullet alloys. I have seen scant evidence of this. Copper hardens lead as a result of it's severely limited miscibility and the difference in atomic radius. Generally, the more miscible, and the more similar the atomic radius and electron configuration, the more an element toughens lead. To my knowledge, copper is not a leading contender.

Curiosity is fully half the battle. Best of luck with your experiments. :drinks:

[robroy]

.


First, someone needs to demonstrate unambiguously that copper 'toughens' lead bullet alloys. I have seen scant evidence of this. Copper hardens lead as a result of it's severely limited miscibility and the difference in atomic radius. Generally, the more miscible, and the more similar the atomic radius and electron configuration, the more an element toughens lead. To my knowledge, copper is not a leading contender.

Curiosity is fully half the battle. Best of luck with your experiments. :drinks:

I'd love to test this in a scientific way. Statics and strengths is a course from long ago and I'm working overtime till after Christmas (this jobless recovery is going to kill me). Having said that I have an Idea for a test rig, just not the time to build it and then drag out the old text books to refresh my memory.

Have, you seen evidence that other elements toughen lead ?

[Charlie Sometimes]

Have, you seen evidence that other elements toughen lead ?

The thicker a target, the tougher it get to push the boolit clear through it. There is definitely a lot of evidence to support that. :kidding: :bigsmyl2:

Where is all of this work at, that will keep you on OT until after Christmas? Tell them to spread it around!

[sagacious]

I'd love to test this in a scientific way. Statics and strengths is a course from long ago and I'm working overtime till after Christmas (this jobless recovery is going to kill me). Having said that I have an Idea for a test rig, just not the time to build it and then drag out the old text books to refresh my memory.

Have, you seen evidence that other elements toughen lead ?
Generally, toughness is decreased as the solubility of the alloy component decreases. Tin will toughen lead, antimony generally will not. Short of a Charpy rig, this is why a clip-on ww will snap if bent, and the more Sb it contains, the sooner it will snap. A lead/tin alloy of the same dimensions will only bend, and not snap. As you know, the resistance to breakage under impact (or strain) is "toughness", as contrasted against "hardness".

Tin, bismuth, cadmium, and thallium are the best candidates for toughening, and zinc and copper lie on the other end of the scale. Very small additions of low-solubility metals may--however-- increase toughness. As always, theory guides, experiment decides, so I encourage folks to test their beliefs on this subject. Good luck.

[Dannix]

High-fps camera footage of 20:1, 50/50, WW, heat treated high Sb, etc., and the first 3 with .6%Cu, hitting AR500 plate would be neat. Bonus points if all done a different velocities too. I imagine there are very few here equipped to do this though, much less with the time to do so. And not even sure if it's worth doing....

What's a good way to measure toughness? Maybe testing HPs in water would be the most convenient way as the petals would display brittleness?

[a.squibload]

Would shear strength coincide with toughness? Or would hardness interfere with a toughness measurement?

Should be simpler to construct (and interpret) a repeatable shear test than to film high-speed impacts.
Say, insert boolit into a hole through two offset plates, drop hammer from a measured height until control or test boolit is sheared.

Filmed impact tests would be more fun of course!

[sagacious]

Yes, exactly-- greater shear strength under impact is a measure of greater toughness. Greater hardness usually does not increase toughness, but does not interfere with the measurement. They are two separate measurements.

It's always fun to watch bullets hitting a hard target! In this case, though, it may not offer much in the way of insightful testing, as there is simply too much energy involved-- more than enough energy to render any lead bullet into tiny fragments. It is somewhat like testing which bullet is tougher by using a stick of dynamite to blow them to bits.

There is some interesting reading on lead alloy toughness on-site in the Stickies & Classics forum. See http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=40767. I might quibble slightly about the strict definition of 'toughness' and a few other terms/concepts in that well-constructed article, but the author does use an impact test, which is how one must test for toughness. One will immediately see that hardness and toughness are not tightly correlated, but the test was geared to measure both hardness and toughness, and locate the point where both were at a commmon maximum.

That combination of factors seems to be what most casters are looking for when looking for a "tough" bullet.

[Dannix]

testing which bullet is tougher by using a stick of dynamite to blow them to bits.
Now that's something I would sign up for. ;)


I had forgotten about that sticky thread. Going to have to re-read it. I wonder if grumpy one would be willing to do some Cu tests.

[deerslayer]

Sagacious, any plumbing copper you can buy will have a small percentage of phosphorous in it (this is added to all plumbing, hvac cu to allow high temperature brazing around 1200 deg F without the use of a flux). That being said a couple questions:

What effect if any would this have on the alloy made with the CU?

Second would the phosphorous allow the lead to alloy without being tinned?

[sagacious]

Sagacious, any plumbing copper you can buy will have a small percentage of phosphorous in it (this is added to all plumbing, hvac cu to allow high temperature brazing around 1200 deg F without the use of a flux).

That being said a couple questions:

What effect if any would this have on the alloy made with the CU?

Second would the phosphorous allow the lead to alloy without being tinned?
Deerslayer,
Good questions. My understanding is that US-made copper plumbing pipe contains about 0.02% phosphorous, which is probably not enough to cause a discernable change in the rate of dissolution of the copper into the molten lead, or in the properties of the resulting lead alloy. As you know, phophorus deoxidizes copper at melting temps, but since dissolution does not entail melting of the copper, the phosporus may not convey any significant advantage during dissolution. I think that tinning is likely to be the quickest route to dissolution. Any old tin/lead solder, and some rosin, will 'tin' the copper.

In greater amounts, I suspect that phosporus may possibly increase the solubility of copper in lead. Cu/P brazing alloy, with several percent P might offer some interesting opportunities for Pb/Cu alloy experimentation. Also, see post #28 in this thread for a little more commentary on phosphorus in Pb/Cu alloys.

Regards, and good shooting.

[deerslayer]

Interesting, I have some Bcup brazing alloy (silver solder). I may have to do a little experimenting and tin the brazing rod to see what happens. I also have plenty of copper around being a plumber so this could make a good evening of tinkering if nothing else.

[robroy]

[/QUOTE]
Where is all of this work at, that will keep you on OT until after Christmas? Tell them to spread it around![/QUOTE]

I work building pickle tanks (for the steel industry) out of polypropylene sheet. We have about 25 people working in the shop and office. Come to SW PA and apply. If you can read a print, use a tape, and put up with alot of BS you might just make it.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Where is all of this work at, that will keep you on OT until after Christmas? Tell them to spread it around![/QUOTE]

I work building pickle tanks (for the steel industry) out of polypropylene sheet. We have about 25 people working in the shop and office. Come to SW PA and apply. If you can read a print, use a tape, and put up with alot of BS you might just make it.[/QUOTE]

So THAT is where all of the BS is coming from! I didn't know the DC politicians couldn't keep up and they had to open factories to produce it and put in tanks to keep it in! They are "pickled" all right, that is for sure. :lol: :kidding:

Putting up with BS- boy, it's everywhere, ain't it? :roll:

Sorry for the hijack, guys. :oops:

[a.squibload]

Need any help installing those pickle tanks?

They go in the lunchroom, right?

[Charlie Sometimes]

robroy- is your avatar photo a picture of you building the pickling tanks?
I at first thought it might be either one of Santa's elves in a flying saucer, or the Travelocity lawn gnome got another job! :kidding: :bigsmyl2:

[robroy]

yup that's me. I'm trying to make my way back to the mother ship. The tank is for off line storage of HNO3 20% with HF 3%. Nasty poisonous stuff.

[a.squibload]

See semi-related post on my lead purchase today at scrapyard.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=89788&page=2

They assayed my purchase items with a handheld x-ray device.
Some small ingots there were very similar alloy except they also had .13% Cu.
I don't know how common this is.
All of it seemed pretty hard, maybe a little "ring" when dropped, but would scratch with thumbnail.

They also had a cool shear, looked like a big claw, cut some samples for inspection.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Wow, that is a fancy scrap yard! I don't know if any of these guys around here would even know what those tools were, or how to turn it on. :sad:

[a.squibload]

Yeah, looked like a starwars weapon!
Someone else walked in as she swung it around, he kinda ducked...

I like this scrapyard, they have a "$20 minimum" yard where you can poke around and pick up stuff.
Got tubing for my Jeep before, priced by the pound.