Pressurize the lube reservoir?

[rbstern]

Has anybody used an air compressor to push the lube thru an RCBS (or Lyman) size/lube machine? I was thinking about threading the cap of the lubrisizer to accept a standard air connector, and drilling/tapping the body and cap to hold the cap in place on the body, with some type of gasket in place to reduce air leakage.

Comments, suggestions, helpful hints and/or dire warnings greatly appreciated.

[mooman76]

Someone here did, but I don't remmeber who.

[bohokii]

why not just rig up some kind of spring or elastic bungee to keep the lever tight

you know take a bungee wrap it around the shaft once then attch it to the table and the other end to the lever

[geargnasher]

I was thinking of making a link between the handle and the ratcheting wrench I use to index the pressure screw so it pressurizes right at the end of the stroke, perhaps rigging the link with a slotted section and strong spring kind of like a carburetor choke pull-off that would slide free through the normal sizer handle stroke and just apply pressure with the spring near the end of the stroke (bottom), thus applying the exact same amount of pressure to the wrench handle each time. I would make the link adjustable to push the screw further or less depending upon lube groove volume.

I think about this every time I sit down and lube a batch of boolits, keeps my mind busy!

The air is an interesting idea, I just wonder how practical it would be to regulate it just right. My Lyman 450 leaks lube out the bottom past the die (worse with RCBS dies) and if you used compressed aire you would need to plug the reservoir screw hole in the bottom somehow, maybe a simple 3/8" X 3/4" bolt and nut with a nylon gasket (read: milk jug) would do the trick. If you try this, please report back to let us know how it worked.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

I have read a lot of these threads, and thought about it; but my particular RCBS lubamatic leaks up thru the H and I dies if too much pressure is left on. If I have a lot of pressure it leaks very quickly, (like every other boolit has a 1/4" of lube on the bottom), if just a little pressure when I am done, overnight I will have a caliber size stick of lube an inch or two long. I use an interchangable bit screwdriver to apply pressure to lube the boolits, it just takes a slight tweek to the handle every second or third boolit.

It doesn't matter if the dies are RCBS or Lyman, or the diameter either.


Robert

[3006guns]

My faithful old Lachmiller came with a forked link that operated the wrench a tiny bit with each stroke. Only problem was that the fork is rather soft metal, so wear set in after a couple of years and the wrench wouldn't advance far enough. I just give the wrench a little hit every other boolit and it works fine.

The idea of air pressure is tempting, but you'd have to carefully regulate it or excess lube will begin oozing out between sizings.......or so I would think. Perhaps a hand or foot operated valve?

[Ron]

My RCBS original lub a matic which I bought back in the early 70's had that same system as the Lachmiller and yes the metal was a bit soft and did wear. Not only that but the quarter inch ratchet that came with it also wore so between the two parts wearing out it no longer works. The ratchet still works manually & I just give it a tweak every other boolit. I suppose after all these years, something had to give.

[JIMinPHX]

The picture below shows a push through lubrasizer that I made several months ago. The big knob in the back adjusts the preload pressure on a spring that keeps the lube pressurized. A valve then opens & closes when the boolit is pushed up into a Lyman style sizing die.

[rbstern]

Jim, that's really nice looking work you've done. Any chance you'll go to market with it?

[rbstern]

If you try this, please report back to let us know how it worked.

Will do. Thinking about taking a ride over to the local machine shop, to have them thread the top fitting on my RCBS Lubrisizer.

[462]

Jim,
Excellent work...and ingenious, too.

[mag44uk]

I think about something like this too everytime I am sizing!
How about this?
Use a geared down electric motor operated by a foot switch,like a sewing machine. Or some sort of stepper motor.
Just needs a sub base to mount it on somehow.
Hmmmmmmmmmm!
Tony

[rbstern]

Fellas, not only is it possible, but it's pretty easy and works really well.

I got to the following result after several hours of drilling, tapping, fitting, gasketing and experimenting with different air pressure settings:

http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/RCBS Lube/RCBS Lube 014.jpg

Cost of materials to pressurize the RCBS Lubrimatic was less than $20. I've taken a bunch of pics of what I did. I will write it up tonight and post it.

[rbstern]

Replacing the mechanical lube pressure system with air pressure on the RCBS Lub-a-matic:

Materials used
- Cork gasketing material (sold in sheets at automotive stores)
- Plumbers tape
- 10 mm x 1.5 x 30mm hex bolt (Crown Bolt upc #30699-36068...Home Depot)
- (2) 4-40 screws, 1/2" length
- 1' length cut from end of PVC air hose (50' hose for $9.99 at Home Depot) (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg1/R-202205327/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&catalogId=10053)
- Small hose clamp (3/8" to 7/8" or similar)

Tools used
- 10mm x 1.50 tap
- 4-40 tap
- #43 drill bit
- 1/8" drill bit
- Drill press (not essential, just makes some of the drilling easier)
- Cordless drill
- Metal cutting wheel or hacksaw
- Air compressor
- Handtools (screwdrivers, center punch, etc.)


The cap assembly:

1) Remove cap from RCBS press and use the 10mm x 1.5 tap to thread the center hole of the cap.

2) Drill a 1/8" centered hole lengthwise through the the 10mm x 1.5 x 30mm hex bolt.

3) Using a cutoff wheel or hack saw, cut the hex head off the bolt.

4) Wrap all of the threads of the now headless bolt with two to three wraps of plumbers tape.

5) Thread the bolt into the RCBS cap from the top side, leaving about half the length of the bolt exposed.

6) Cut one foot (or whatever length you find suitable for your setup) from the PVC air hose.

7) Using the hose clamp, clamp the cut end of the hose onto to exposed end of the bolt protruding from the RCBS cap.

Threaded RCBS cap, drilled hex bolt:
http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/RCBS Lube/RCBS Lube 003.jpg

Mated:
http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/RCBS Lube/RCBS Lube 007.jpg

Cap assembly looks like this:
(shown with a quick disconnector attached to the 1/4" NPT fixture on the hose)
http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/RCBS Lube/RCBS Lube 008.jpg


Making the base air tight:

1) Remove the threaded rod/mechanical pressure assembly from the lube reservoir. The press can easily be returned to mechanical pressurization, so be sure to store these parts, in case you need them again.

2) Using the gasket material, cut three circles 1.5" in diameter. A 1.5" fender washer makes a good template for this cut. Depending on your mounting system, you might need additional gasket thickness. Just add another 1.5" disk. I experimented with several different shapes of gaskets before settling on making these disks to fit into the bottom of the reservoir. This proved to be the most airtight solution.

3) Place the three circular gaskets in the opening at the bottom of the press and remount the press to your lube heater or work surface. This is more easily done if there is lube in the reservoir. Just push the gaskets onto the lube.

Gasket material in place:
http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/RCBS Lube/RCBS Lube 021.jpg


Mating the cap to the RCBS body:

1) Clean off the top of the press so that nothing impedes the cap from being seated as tightly as possible.

2) Place the cap in the press (without the hose assembly attached). If possible, clamp it on firmly using a woodworking clamp, or whatever you have available.

3) On my press, there is only about 0.2" of mating between the cap and the press body, so I chose 4-40 screws to hold the cap to the body. I carefully marked and drilled #43 holes through the body, into the cap and then threaded the holes with the 4-40 tap.

Drilling and tapping these holes is the toughest part of the process, because the working area is small. Go slow. This needs to be a good fit.

Threading for 4-40 screws to hold the cap in place:
http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/RCBS Lube/RCBS Lube 009.jpg

Cap held in place with 4-40 screws (one on each side):
http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/RCBS Lube/RCBS Lube 028.jpg


Final assembly:

1) Reattach the hose to the cap.

2) Use some plumbers tape to make a seal around the edges of the cap. I used approximately four wraps around the circumferance of the cap.

3) Place the taped cap assembly in the body and fasten it in place with the screws.

Finished and working!
http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/RCBS Lube/RCBS Lube 019.jpg


Additional comments:

First of all, I know this board is loaded with mechanical talent: Serious tinkerers, self-taught and formally trained machinists, engineers, inventors. I apologize if this project appears crude to the better trained eyes in the Castboolits community. I don't have a lot of metalworking experience, and my choices in this project were driven by tools on hand and low cost of experimentation.

My setup has a Lyman heater, and the lube in my press is LARS Red Carnauba. With the press fully warmed up, and a 358 sizing die in place, I found I could get lube to flow anywhere from 20psi to 40psi. I finally settled on about 32psi for good fillout. The only problem I ran into was when an air pocket reached the die, with a void all the way to the pressurized air in the reservoir. Air can then escape through the die as bullets are cycled, and the lube won't flow. I removed the cap assembly and used a wooden dowel to pack the lube down firmly in the reservoir, to purge any air pockets. I also melted another stick of lube and poured it in on top of the lube that was already in the press. Unfortunately, with the hollow stick lubes, you may have to go through this a couple of times until you've eliminated air pockets. Best way to avoid this is to start with any empty reservoir, and pour in melted lube. You can also melt the existing lube in the press by heating the press with a heat gun.

This setup is not air tight. It took some experimenting to figure out the right gasket configuration for the base (3 stacked disks), and I had to re-tape the cap a couple of times. Air still escapes, but at a very low rate, and the press seems to be able to hold pressure well. I have a 60 gallon compressor in my basement shop. Even with all of my experimenting over a few hours, the compressor never had to cycle on. This setup should be efficient even with small compressors, as long as you do a decent job of gasketing and taping the connections.

Once in operation, the thing was a pleasure to use. I haven't timed myself, but I suspect my throughput rate is going to double. I can keep one hand on the RCBS press lever at all times, with no reaching for the pressure wrench. The boolits fill out consistently, so I don't have to run some a second time.

Potential improvements? I could see mounting a standard NPT coupler directly onto the RCBS cap, and atop that, a pressure gage for being able to view and manipulate the air pressure without moving from the press.

And a safety note: Wear eye protection when working on this setup. By air tool standards, 32psi is low, but it's plenty enough pressure to get a small part flying fast enough for an eye injury.

[geargnasher]

Thanks for posting that! I was wondering how it would work without a piston on top of the lube, perhaps one could be made with a short piece of wire attached to it and coiled on top so it could be retrieved from the bottom of the reservoir when bottomed out.

I have a Lyman 450 and I wish you'd quit giving me ideas :groner::kidding:

Gear

[Lloyd Smale]

check out gussy website. Castingstuff.com. He makes a set up for the lyman and rcbs sizers that makes them simular to the star. It isnt air pressure but the spring pressure set up will allow you to size up to 50 bullets without touching the crank. I helped him test some of the original prototypes and they work well. I dont have one anymore as i went to stars for all my sizing but it may be a cheap alternative for someone who isnt handy enough to change theres over to air.

[prickett]

check out gussy website. Castingstuff.com. He makes a set up for the lyman and rcbs sizers that makes them simular to the star. It isnt air pressure but the spring pressure set up will allow you to size up to 50 bullets without touching the crank. I helped him test some of the original prototypes and they work well. I dont have one anymore as i went to stars for all my sizing but it may be a cheap alternative for someone who isnt handy enough to change theres over to air.

Went to castingstuff.com but didn't see this. Can you provide a direct link?

[cheese1566]

http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_loading_products.htm

scroll down to Automatic Lube Feeder ALF

[hunter64]

rbstern: Great write up. I went to the garage to see if I could duplicate what you have done.

I have a lyman 450 and I disassembled it for a good cleaning and thought I would do what you have done because there is nothing more annoying than trying to get the correct pressure for the lube and having to do the same bullet twice.

I tried to get the pressure screw out but it looks like it is pressed in the seal plug and I am not sure if it will come out without being pounded out the bottom. Does anybody know? I tried unscrewing it from the bottom and I got about 1" than it quit. Numbers 8 and 9 on the diagram below.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/pdf/LyC_BC_LS_4500.pdf go to page 5 of the instructions and it has the parts for the 450 also.

Looks like it is staked in on 6 places so pushing it out would be no problem.

[rbstern]

hunter, thanks. Please take pics as you do this, if you don't mind. Would like to see the differences based on the designs of the two presses.

[prickett]

The picture below shows a push through lubrasizer that I made several months ago. The big knob in the back adjusts the preload pressure on a spring that keeps the lube pressurized. A valve then opens & closes when the boolit is pushed up into a Lyman style sizing die.

JIMinPXH, how about more pictures and a more complete description on how this works. Looks GREAT! If you are selling, I"ll buy.

[prickett]

http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_loading_products.htm

scroll down to Automatic Lube Feeder ALF

Thanks. Was as clear as the nose on my face. Don't know how I missed it.

[rbstern]

Follow up post to report on production speed with the air pressured lube. I lubed 700 bullets today, most I've ever done in a single sitting. Took a little over an hour. 10 to 12 bullets per minute is about normal.

I'm now beginning to ponder a foot pedal/spring return setup.

[RP]

Well I was wondering if that would work without something pressing down the lube. But now that some one has tried it I got a little input that may be another way to do it without as much work (maybe). What if you just drilled a hole in the side of the sizer and added air there. Not do anything else to the press well I bet you still need a gasket at the bottom since they all leak there. Plus to this, I think you could plug the hole and still use it the old way, you could add lube and use the crank to press the air out, And all you need to do is tap the hole add the air supply. After all his hard work and posting his findings that answers my ? Thanks for the post not sure when I get around to this but its going on my list of things to do.THANKS RBSTERN

[hunter64]

Ricky P: I was actually thinking of the same thing.

About 1" down from the top tap a hole in the side of the reservoir and add an air nosal attachment. You would add the lube as normal and turn the pressure nut down just so it is level with the top of the reservoir so you can put the cap back on and high enough that it doesn't cover the air nosal attachment. Turn on the air and away you go. Might have to wrap the pressure screw with Teflon tape to help hold in the air.

The biggest drawback to this idea is that the reservoir wall thickness is really not all that thick so I think you would have to get a brass attachment with a fine thread first and then attach the air nosal onto that. Or weld a nut on the outside to accept more threads.

Heck if it doesn't work then you just take out the brass fitting and insert a set screw for a plug.

[rbstern]

After lubing with air pressure, I'm not sure I would go back to the mechanical way. Performance difference is too dramatic.

The alternative you guys suggest sounds possible, but there are two potential problems I foresee:

1) The mechanical pressure assembly gaskets might not be airtight enough, and you have no way to adjust those, unless you can find some thicker gaskets. With the cap being used to contain pressure, you can always add more plumbers tape, gasket material, make-a-gasket, etc.

2) The threaded rod might intruduce more void/air pathways between the die and the pressure above the lube.

Niether of the above are deal breakers. They can probably be tackled, but they definitely introduce new variables.

[JIMinPHX]

Jim, that's really nice looking work you've done. Any chance you'll go to market with it?

I started developing that thing with a half a mind to sell them. That picture was the second prototype & it's almost ready to go as it. I just need to rearrange it so that the gizmo sits on top of the reloading press instead of under it & I need to improve a few dimensions in the valve so that it opens/closes quicker & allows a faster flow rate.

I want to put the gizmo on top so that it will fit on a wider range of presses & I want to improve the valve so that I can get quicker throughput. It's all been drawn up for well over a month now. I just need to find the time to actually make the next generation prototype.

The big thing keeping this thing from being readily marketable right now is the price. With the amount of work that it takes to make one of these things the way that I did it, I'd have to charge more than a Lyman rig goes for new. I don't know if I'm going to be able to get the price down far enough to be competitive.

That's a fair bit of improvement that you seem to have made on your little rig there. It looks like it should kick things up a notch over the standard setup for sure.

[prickett]

I started developing that thing with a half a mind to sell them. That picture was the second prototype & it's almost ready to go as it. I just need to rearrange it so that the gizmo sits on top of the reloading press instead of under it & I need to improve a few dimensions in the valve so that it opens/closes quicker & allows a faster flow rate.

I want to put the gizmo on top so that it will fit on a wider range of presses & I want to improve the valve so that I can get quicker throughput. It's all been drawn up for well over a month now. I just need to find the time to actually make the next generation prototype.

The big thing keeping this thing from being readily marketable right now is the price. With the amount of work that it takes to make one of these things the way that I did it, I'd have to charge more than a Lyman rig goes for new. I don't know if I'm going to be able to get the price down far enough to be competitive.

That's a fair bit of improvement that you seem to have made on your little rig there. It looks like it should kick things up a notch over the standard setup for sure.

Does it use commercial sizing dies or are they homemade too?

[rbstern]

I started developing that thing with a half a mind to sell them. That picture was the second prototype & it's almost ready to go as it. I just need to rearrange it so that the gizmo sits on top of the reloading press instead of under it & I need to improve a few dimensions in the valve so that it opens/closes quicker & allows a faster flow rate.

I want to put the gizmo on top so that it will fit on a wider range of presses & I want to improve the valve so that I can get quicker throughput. It's all been drawn up for well over a month now. I just need to find the time to actually make the next generation prototype.

The big thing keeping this thing from being readily marketable right now is the price. With the amount of work that it takes to make one of these things the way that I did it, I'd have to charge more than a Lyman rig goes for new. I don't know if I'm going to be able to get the price down far enough to be competitive.

Wonderfully valuable to a limited market of people who can truly appreciate it, but might not be ready to spend on it. :)

Ain't that always the way?


That's a fair bit of improvement that you seem to have made on your little rig there. It looks like it should kick things up a notch over the standard setup for sure.

Using it yesterday was the best time I've spent in front of that machine. For once, I was disappointed I didn't have more bullets to lube.

[JIMinPHX]

Does it use commercial sizing dies or are they homemade too?

It uses standard Lyman style dies. It would have been easier for me to design my own die, but I wanted to stay standardized with them because I figured that 9 out of 10 guys that would want one of these would already have a handful of Lyman dies.

The big advantages to this rig are that it's a little faster than a Lyman, it sizes nose first, after going through a self aligning pilot bore, so the boolits can only go into the die dead straight & it comes apart for easy cleaning.

[JIMinPHX]

Wonderfully valuable to a limited market of people who can truly appreciate it, but might not be ready to spend on it. :)

Ain't that always the way?


Yea, it's a good thing that I don't try to make a living off the things that I sell here on the board. I'd be in trouble for sure if I did.

[hunter64]

rbstern: I had an older lyman model 45 and so I thought I would experiment on it first before trying to modify my lyman 450.

The body on the 45 is extremely thin and made out of hardened steel so I decided to add the air thru the top as you have done. I had a piece of plate steel doing nothing so I took out the pressure screw and tapped and threaded some holes into the bottom of the lube body. I cut a gasket the correct size and silicon ed it to the bottom, installed the steel plate and screwed it to the bottom to provide an airtight seal.

As far as the top goes it is a hat type cover so I simply found an adapter to go from the air nosel for the air compressor to a 1/8" npt and tapped the hole to 1/8" npt and installed it. Drilled two holes in the side to hold the top on and gave it a go.

Lots of air leaking out from under the cap. So I wrapped the body with a couple of wraps of tape and tried it again. I repeated this and no matter how I tried it still leaked a lot of air to the point that even at 40psi from the compressor it wouldn't push the lube into the bullet.

So I siliconed the cap on and screwed it down and left it over night to see if the silicone would do the trick, not much just on the body to plug up any air escaping under the cap.

Silicone did the trick and I gave it a run. About 30 psi works good and pushes the lube nicely into the grooves.

As far as being faster goes it was slightly quicker than normal on my 450 machine but in all honesty you get into a rhythm on the 450, put the bullet in, touch the crank to push the grease and out it comes.

Don't think I will try it on my 450, for me it wasn't worth the time and effort, but it is always fun to experiment.

I found that once I made a 1/2" thick aluminum base for my 450 so I could add the lyman heater and a thermocouple for a PID controller to control the heat, this cured two huge problems with the 450. One was a controlled heat to keep the lube at a constant temperature and flowing correctly. And the second problem with the 450 it has no more leaks.

[rbstern]

hunter, nice work.

Your 45's mechanical lube must work better than my RCBS. Mechanically, I have trouble getting a consistent pattern of lube flow, and frequently have to process a boolit twice. That's where the air pressure dramatically improved my rate. That, and simplifying my hand motions.

Great follow up. Thanks for posting it.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I use a Saeco Lubricizer. Working with Lar45's Carnuba Red requires a heater and once the unit is up to operating temperature I can turn it off for a while and they turn it on once the lube starts to get balky.

Ok, the unit is warm to the touch so now I put a boolit into the unit and press down on the operating handle and then raise it. No lube yet. I start to turn the lever handle on top of the press until I feel the resitance increase. Now the lube is under pressure. I give it one full turn under resitance and I am good to go.

Reinsert boolit and depress handle. Bring up the handle and take out the boolit and voila there is lube in the gooves. Is it completely filled in all around? If not rotate boolit a mite and reinsert into device. Now is it full? Should be but if not than another 1/4 turn on the leve on top and we should be good to go.

Once the lube starts to fill the gooves I do not have to touch the lever on top very often. A half turn every 30 boolits or so usually does the trick. Carefull use of the heater is now important. You cannot leave it on all the time as you will start to get lube oozing out of the top of the device around the sizing die. I have a switch mounted on the line of the heater so I can turn it off and on as needed.

After some experience with this lube and the device I found a nice area of operation where the lube will flow well enuf to fill the gooves without a lot of turning on the lever on top and will flow slow enuf so as not to ooze out of the area around the sides of sizing die.

It certainly is a lot faster and easier than pan lubing and has less steps in it than lubing with alox and JPW and tumble lubing, drying, sizing, relubing, drying againand then dusting with corn starch.

The idea of having an air compressor system to provide a controllable amount of pressure to keep the lube flowing into the die seems to be possibly desireable but I wonder if it worth the effort and money.

I must confess not to having any experience with either a Lyman or RCBS luber so I really am not able to compare the operations of these machines as compared one to another. '

Again with the Saeco I need to turn the lever on top of the resevoir only every 30 boolits or so. I know when to do this by examination of the lube in the grooves.

If I start to see gaps in the red against the shiney alloy boolits in the grooves then I know it is time to give it a turn or less depending on how hot the device is etc.

Once I find that I need to reinsert the boolits back into the device beause of gaps I know it is time to turn the lever.

How far I turn it depends on how much reistance I get to the turning of the lever. If I turn too far it will start to ooze lube, too little and I will get gaps in the loob groove again sooner.

I seek the happy medium path to hapiness in lubing.