P14 enroute!

[bruce drake]

I won this Winchester Model P1914 last night after a two week auction. It got down to the last 15 minutes with four bids from another fellow pushing it the price up before I got a rifle I've been trying to acquire (within economic reasons) a model of for almost a dozen years.

It should be in my greedy claws within the next 10 days so I'm looking forward to sending some cast loads through her shortly!

Bruce

[missionary5155]

Yep they are fine rifles.. a bit on the heavy side to lug about all day but mine is a fine shooter with 180GC RCBS flat nose pushed about 1900 fps.
I use mine for bowling pin matches at 50 & 100 yards.

[bruce drake]

I'm looking to try it out with LEE's 185gr .312 boolit first and then maybe the LEE .309 200gr or Lyman 170gr 311410 if the bore slugs tight enough for either boolit.

I want to use it for 200yard CMP Vintage Military Bolt Matches and general Cast shooting as well.

Bruce

[Hip's Ax]

You're going to love that rifle! I've had my P14 for some years now, I also have an M1917 and one day I took both to the range. With standard mil issue ball ammo (LC 66 for the M1917, South African for the 303, both GOOD lots of ball) my P14 was markedly more accurate than my M1917.

[BarryinIN]

Congrats, it should make you very happy.
I've had a P14 for a few years now. Mine is a Winchester like yours. I kind of bought mine unplanned at an estate auction because nobody else there knew what it was. Between the price being right and it looking like it would go to somone who wouldn't appreciate it, I had to get it.

I still haven't shot it all that much, but enough to see that it shoots well- At least as well as the #4 Enfield I've shot more.
I've only shot a few cast bullets in it because I bought a bunch of 123 grain 7.62x39 bullets several years ago that I have been using as "playing around" bullets and they've lasted and lasted.

Interesting rifles. Makes you wonder "what if" if WWI had not started and work continued on them. Maybe nothing. Maybe not.

[bruce drake]

BarryinIN,

What are those 123gr FMJ being loaded with? And what sight setting do you use for 100 or 200yds? If the twist rate supports them, they might be a viable short-range loading.

Bruce

[LWSTARKS]

Yes, P14 is a great rifle. I bought mine nearly 20 yrs ago. I remember that when I bought it for $90, thinking that my dad was going to give me a hard time because he never was a 303 fan, but felt like it was a good deal. It came with the rifle and 3 bandoleers of HXP ammo. Now that I look back on it, it was a steal.

[BarryinIN]

BarryinIN,

What are those 123gr FMJ being loaded with? And what sight setting do you use for 100 or 200yds? If the twist rate supports them, they might be a viable short-range loading.

Bruce

FWIW, they are 123 grain soft points, not FMJ. They were the same price, I think, so I got the soft points.
I used 40.0 grains of IMR4895 or surplus WC846. I honestly don't remember if I ever chronographed them, so can't give you a velocity but I'm thinking they should have been around 2600-2700 fps.
They could probably go faster, but I had no reason to and 40 grains is a nice round number that's easy to remember!

With the #4 Enfield I used them in most, it only has the two-aperture flip peep, and the shorter range of the two (200M?) was close enough at 100 yards to shoot paper with. They were good for 3-4 MOA, which may not sound great, but is about all I could do with iron sights and that rifle anyway.
I never shot them at 200.

I tried some .312 100 grain Hornady XTPs (for 32 handguns, I think) in both rifles once just to see if it would work. I only shot five of each in each rifle just to see if the bullets would hold up. I loaded them with 38 grains of IMR 4895. I see here in my notes that I test fired them from prone at 50 yards for some reason. In the #4, they made a vertical string 3-3/8" high by 1" wide, but the P14 shot them into a more circular 2-1/2". The bullets survived, and I should try more.

[Mk42gunner]

Bruce,

While I haven't had a P-14, I have had a couple of M-1917's. These rifles, like most of the milsurps are from a different era. The workmanship on these massproduced battle rifles exceeds most sporting rifles today.

The first M-1917 I had, I could easily make expert on the Navy's rifle course, with whatever surplus ball .30-06 ammo I could find cheap, even some flood damaged FN ammo that gave about 25% misfires. That rifle cost $120.11, out the door. Yet another one I wish I still had.

The only bad thing is there is no easy adjustment for windage, although there is a Parker-Hale adjustble rear sight, if you can find one.

Good Luck with it.

Robert

[NuJudge]

P14 front sight adjustment tool, British Broad Arrow marked:
https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/570

[bruce drake]

Thanks NuJudge! That looks like it could be interesting if it comes with instructions.

IE a quarter or half turn equal X inches at 100 yards.

Or I could just experiment and find that out myself.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

mk42Gunner,

I'm saving some money up for a Parker Hale now. Bob S sent me a link earlier to one and I found another for sale in the U.K. that I might be able to afford as well.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

BarryinIN,
40gr is a nice even load! I've got a caddy of IMR4895 sitting in the garage that can be applied to this.

I used to load those Hornady XTP 100gr Hollowpoints in my No4 Enfield as well. 13gr of Red Dot put them in the black at 100 with the 200yd sight up. That load ripped rabbits apart! I learned to aim for the head real quick!

Bruce

[BarryinIN]

I should tinker with those XTPs some more, now that I know they will enter a target nose-first.
I just wanted to add that I heard there is a lot of varience in those 123 grain bullets, whether FMJ or SP. I guess the diameters can run from .310-.314, depending on who made them and when. I would be careful buying them in bulk from a gunshow or shop that sells them by scopping some out of an ammo can. Everytime they refill the can, it might be with a slightly different diameter, so a bag of them could be a variety of diameters.

About a year ago, Wideners had a bunch of bullets that looked good for cheap shooters in .303s. I think they were about 165-170 grain FMJBT and quite a bit cheaper than anything .30 caliber they had. They were being sold in quantities of 2,000. I wish I had got some to try.

[bruce drake]

I'll have to see if Wideners has any left.

[BarryinIN]

I couldn't find them when I took a quick look before I posted that.
When they were pushing them, they were hard to miss. They came up on the homepage with the featured items and again in another category or two. So maybe they are gone. I think they were listed under "Mil-Spec bullets".

I have some of those "Mil-specs" in .30/145 grain FMJ and they shoot as well or better than any other similar bullet I've used. I think they come from Lithuania or somwhere like that.

[Trey45]

A P14 is on my short list. I want one in the worst way, but I'm going to need to find one locally. One day I'll find one. Congrats on the score, you're really going to enjoy that rifle.

[StarMetal]

Trey,

First way to go on the rifle!!!! Wideners doesn't appear to have any of those bullets, but I have some and maybe we can stride up a deal. They are FMJ, steel jacket copper coated, steel core. They are .311 diameter and Wideners stated them as Russian bullets.

You really need to try the Lyman 314299 if you haven't already.

[JeffinNZ]

Bruce, I will baby sit it for you while you are on deployment. Can't ask for fairer than that.

[NuJudge]

Thanks NuJudge! That looks like it could be interesting if it comes with instructions.

IE a quarter or half turn equal X inches at 100 yards.

Or I could just experiment and find that out myself.

Bruce

The screws are 22 TPI. One full turn moves the sight 1/22 inch, or .0455". Using the .0092" per MOA, one full turn of the screw is worth 4.94 MOA, so figure 5 MOA per full turn, 2-1/2 MOA per half turn; 1-1/4 MOA per quarter turn. It can be used with one hand, so you can stay in position and in the sling to get centered up during the sighting period. After that, just take favors if need be.

[bruce drake]

Jeff,
And have that rifle reside with someone with purple knickers...I think not! But I appreciate the offer! I hope to shoot it at least once or twice before I head to Afghanistan.
NuJudge,
I think I will buy that sight adjuster now that I see the adjustments are that easy to figure out.
Bruce

[NuJudge]

The calculations for the M1917 are the same for elevation and windage. Here it is, all worked out for you:
http://www.nicolausassociates.com/PDF/M1917SightHeightCalcs.pdf

[JeffinNZ]

Jeff,
And have that rifle reside with someone with purple knickers...I think not! But I appreciate the offer! Bruce

Fair enough I guess.

[bruce drake]

Fair enough I guess.

Jeff,

If I ever buy a French MAS or Italian Carcano Rifle [smilie=s:I'll feel comfortable sending it to you since it seems you have an affinity for the ugly things like purple knickers and funky rifles...:bigsmyl2:

Bruce

[JeffinNZ]

It's true. I can't deny it. You can add the SMLE also. She ain't so purty.

[Echo]

Bruce, an AK-47 sight adjuster can be modified (a little Dremel work) for the P-14 front sight. That is what I use on my 1917 - and it didn't cot $65, either...

[bruce drake]

Payment and FFL has made it to the seller. Rifle is being shipped on Friday so I should see it at my gunshop by next Tuesday. Yep, I miss not having my C&R FFL address updated (waiting for new license to come in)

Almost as bad as waiting in a delivery room for a kid to be born

[bruce drake]

Update.

The P14 arrived yesterday and the bore looks beautiful and the headspace is TIGHT!

I have to detail disassemble it this weekend and really look it over but I got blessed with this one.

I'm going to try to take it to the range this weekend and baptize it properly as well as take some better pictures.

Right now I can confirm that it was manufactured by Winchester and it went through the Weedon Repair Program at the beginning of WWII making it a No 3 Mk II as it doesn't have the volley sights.

It has a unit marking brass plate on the buttstock but I'll have to describe it when I get home as I forgot to write the code down(it is X3302 so I'll have to do some research on the unit). It has the Brit's Broad Arrow marking on the receiver as well as the Crown's proof stamp. It has a circled star on the front receiver ring as well.

More to come as I take her apart!

Bruce

[bruce drake]

I got to shoot the rifle yesterday! Windage is just a touch to the left of where I'd like it to be but the rifle shoots nice small groups at 100 yards.

I did discover that during the rebuild it got a Eddystone bolt but everything else still matches.

I shot the rifle yesterday with a 185gr lead bullet (LEE Mold) sized and gaschecked to .312 over a load of 33.5gr of IMR 4007SSC. Right around 2100fps according to my fuzzy math on the conversion factors. I need to set my chrono up when I get a chance to see what this load is really doing. No leading and the recoil was nicely manageable for my 65 year old father-in-law as well.

Bruce

[RugerFan]

Cool beans. How bout a pic of the new addition?

[bruce drake]

First picture is at the start of the thread, but I know need to shoot (pictures) more :)

[BarryinIN]

Sounds good.

[bruce drake]

Took it out today and using 147gr FMJ-BT J-bullets (pulled 7.62x54R .311 dia)and 40gr of Russian surplus powder (from the same lot of 7.62x54R bullets), I kept the groups within 3 inches at 100 yards using those vintage iron sights.

The Battle Sight had the groups about 10" above my point of aim but when I flipped the rear sight up and set it on 200yd marking it was dead on for 100yards with a 6 o'clock hold.

Considering that I just slapped together some milsurp loads out there, there is a lot of potential for this rifle.

That iron buttplate does smack you a little bit but it's a good pain :)

A little cleaning and oiling tomorrow and it'll be ready for a shooting sabbatical until I get back next fall.

Bruce

[JeffinNZ]

Don't worry about cleaning it too much Bruce. I will give it the once over when it arrives in NZ. No need to thank me. All in a day's work.

[bruce drake]

Jeff, you'll get it once it's a smoothbore... no need to thank me on that either. I'm sure your importation laws will be easier to comply with once it's a .410 shotgun. :)

[rollmyown]

Very Nice!! I'm Very green with envy!

Rob

[bruce drake]

So...Almost done with the year's absence from shooting for fun and I have a Lyman 314299 200gr mold waiting at the house to experiment with in a few weeks.

Here is the plan
Lyman 314299
Lee 185gr .312
Lee 155gr .311
Lee 200gr .309
Lyman 311413
Lee 150gr .309
Lyman 311410

All to be tested for accuracy over the next year. One of two project rifles (300BLK) that I intend to write about over the next year.

Bruce

[303Guy]

Purple nickers are a very practical and logical hunting garment. Wild animals don't see purple and other hunters do!8-)

P.S. I made up the bit about wild animals not seeing purple.[smilie=1:

[bruce drake]

the reason Jeff is lucky hunting with those purple knickers is that the Kangaroos and Wallabies are usually rolling around on the ground laughing and Jeff can then walk up on them and deliver the coup-de-grace from 5M away...

Bruce

[Ed in North Texas]

P14 front sight adjustment tool, British Broad Arrow marked:
https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/570

Apparently they have renumbered this item. I tried the link and failed to find the item. Checked their listings and found this:

https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/43/products_id/569

I would assume they are the same item. $65 seems a bit steep unless you are a collector of the rifle associated items.

[Ed in North Texas]

Bruce, an AK-47 sight adjuster can be modified (a little Dremel work) for the P-14 front sight. That is what I use on my 1917 - and it didn't cot $65, either...

When I saw the picture of the P14 adjuster, that was my first thought - it looks like the AK adjuster works the same way.

[Ed in North Texas]

Congratulations on the "new" rifle, Major. I know you'll enjoy it. Be safe and come back to your friends and family.

Ed

[gew98]

It's been a year or two since I took out my Patt'14...but I've had it for close to 30 years. One helluva shooter !.

[bruce drake]

Beautiful! It even has the original volley sights!

[gew98]

Bruce ; I got this rifle from a buddy for $160 30 years ago. At the time my friends generally thought me crazy for paying so much for that rifle then. Well I had always wanted one and it was matching with zero import markings or FTR anything. Best part was his father had brought it back from WW2 - mailed it home as he traded an old brit homeguard codger foodstuffs and whiskey for it. My buddy's father was in B17's '43 -'44 and as an officer had access to all the good stuff the limey blokes and girls wanted , and he had lamented what a good time he had over there ...when not flying over germany !.
What was really unique is he was a fairly old man with a young wife ( my buddy's mother ) and had'nt given up having a good time for nothing.
This Patt'14 has been the most consitently accurate military rifle I have ever owned. I have had it do 5 rounds touching at 100 yards when I did my part time after time. I bagged alot of squirrels with it too using the little marbles 32 S&W/303 subcaliber converter in it.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have a nice pair of Remington M17s and a very nice Eddystone fat boy P14 complete with both volley sights, but the Winchesters in both are the holy grail of those big old Enfileds.

[gew98]

For some reason the brits preferred to keep the brand name "winchester" in store , yet it was the one they had the most problems with parts interchangeability and quality issues.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The finish on the Winchesters was superior in the ones I have seen. Maybe somethign about the Brits being more familiar with the Winchester brand, compliments of squillions of cowboy movies.

My wife is Chinese and Chinese in Australia prefer Fords over Holdens(what we call GM cars). The Ford is a recognisable brand, but The Holden not so. If our Holdens were marketed as Chevrolets, they would no doubt accept them more readily. They pronounce Ford 'footah.' A bit of trivia you really needed to know, lol.

Gew98, is that P14 a Winchester? It looks exactly like my Eddystone.

A point of interest for you, the correct way of attaching the slings when not being used or on parade, was the brass keeper buckles inside against teh rifle as you have them, tightened up and the end of the buckle on the stock buckle level with the corner of the handgrip. We would adjust the front buckle to open it up to carry it, but leave the rear undisturbed as it took a bit of fiddling to get it exactly right. I carried an SMLE in the Australian Army Cadet Corps in the early 60s. I joined the cadets at 14 (minimum age) and the old 30', as we called them seemed about five foot long and as heavy as. Later generations of Australians show a distinct lack of respect and refer to them as the 'smelly.'

Later on when graduating to the adult army, I carried an SLR (Aussie name for the FN-FAL). We never referred to it as anything other than the SLR, some knobs called it the L1A1 (I think that was the designation). The later generation of rabble rousers referred to it as the 'Slur.'

More trivia for you. If any of you buy an Aussie slouch hat (very popular purchase from overseas visitors) I will show you the correct method of attacing the chinstrap, another strange one, generally not bothered with by the sales people (althought I have put a lot of them right). I was at our Natonal War Museum recently and saw a chinstrap on one of the models incorrectly fitted. The curators were horriefied.

[gew98]

Love the trivia , good facts !. If you get a copy of Skennerton's work titled " THE US ENFIELD" it will expose you to the mundane and boring details of the Patt'14 Contracts and their glitches with quality control. A good read really.
My Patt'14 is an ERA ( Eddystone). I have only seen one non import original winchester'14 that was not weedon standard and it had a renumbered bolt - not a brit renumber but a fraudster job.
I can recall as a kid working in a junk yard we had there a handfull of "british" fords. Tiny little things like the yugo and seemingly not much better quality either. One of the part timers workign there on weekends was a brit fella whom had been a full time auto mechanic in the UK and he had the funniest way of saying things like windscreen for windshield , boot for trunk . My boss then had a thing for those little triumph cars... and the brit fella hated them and the LUCAS designed elctrical systems. He always referred to such english electrical systems as "Lucas, prince of darkness".

[Four Fingers of Death]

Love the trivia , good facts !....... One of the part timers workign there on weekends was a brit fella whom had been a full time auto mechanic in the UK and he had the funniest way of saying things like windscreen for windshield , boot for trunk . My boss then had a thing for those little triumph cars... and the brit fella hated them and the LUCAS designed elctrical systems. He always referred to such english electrical systems as "Lucas, prince of darkness".

We had the Triumph Herald here and it wasn't much chop. My aunty had one and she loved, drove it for ages. I worked in the motor trade for awhile (Fiat Tractors) and the Triumph Herald was called the 'Corn Flake car.' The distributor in Parramatta ordered in a replacement dash board. It was made of leatherette covered compressed cardboard. This particular example had a big piece of a Kellogs Corn Flake packet which had survived the pulper and ended up gracing the back of the dash.

I have an old Land Rover and LandRover people world wide call Lucas the Lord (or Prince) of Darkness. MIine is completely re-wired, heavy duty wiring, all connections soldered, all circuits travel to and from the battery. More money in the re-wiring than in the whole car ( a fool and his money are soon parted!).

[Ed in North Texas]

Had a TR-3A years ago (it had to go to pay for college - marriage, kids and college didn't mix well with the GI bill as it was in the late 60s and early 70s). that 4 cylinder with 4 speed would run. I had the car out on the Bailey Turnpike (SW OK) after working on it. Started running with a Ford Falcon with a 260 V8 and automatic tranny. Because I hadn't hooked up the wires on the Laycock De Normanville Overdrive, I couldn't leave him behind, but he couldn't shake me either. We ran neck and neck for a while before I decided my test ride was enough and turned off to head for home.

When the starter quit on me, kids at college looked at me sort of funny when I got the crank out to start the car. That didn't last too long before I had the cash to get the starter re-built. Funny to think about that now, I think I recollect it was $15.00 or $20.00 for the re-build, lots more than a US made starter. And I think most every Brit car owner in the US called Lucas "Prince of Darkness". this was likely the result of the Lucas wish for people to think of their early slogan "King of the Road" for all their lights, combined with the quality problems Lucas products often had.

[303Guy]

I started out life as a motor mechanic. Never did develop any love for Lucas stuff!

[Dead Dog Jack]

Bruce - How many powders do you intend to test out? I'm curious to see your result with IMR-4320. My P-14 is awesome with it!

[bruce drake]

So far, I've used Reloader 10x, IMR 4895, IMR4007SSC and IMR 4064, Red Dot and Unique. All the IMR loads were with either Sierra Match Kings (174gr) or Russian Surplus pulls (147gr) and its beauty shoot at 200 yards with it.

I took it out today and finally shot cast boolits with it. Lyman's 314299 sized to .312 and lubed with Lar's BAC with 15.6gr of Red Dot. THe P14 just loved it. 300 yard sight setting at 50 yards and the 3- 10 shot groups all were within 3". I brought two Lee Enfield No 4Mk1s to the range today along with the P14 and they both tumbled the rounds. One No4 has the standard 5 groove rifling and the other No4 has a two groove barrel. Niether cared for the heavier cast although I've had good success with LEE's 160gr boolit in previous shooting with the 5 groove barrel. Those two Enfields will have more work done with cast on them when I unpack from the move to Kansas.

In the meantime, the Lyman 314299 soon will be dedicated exclusively to the P14 unless I find its a good performer in my 7.7 Arisakas and Mosin Nagants...

[Four Fingers of Death]

So far, I've used Reloader 10x, IMR 4895, IMR4007SSC and IMR 4064, Red Dot and Unique. All the IMR loads were with either Sierra Match Kings (174gr) or Russian Surplus pulls (147gr) and its beauty shoot at 200 yards with it.

I took it out today and finally shot cast boolits with it. Lyman's 314299 sized to .312 and lubed with Lar's BAC with 15.6gr of Red Dot. THe P14 just loved it. 300 yard sight setting at 50 yards and the 3- 10 shot groups all were within 3". I brought two Lee Enfield No 4Mk1s to the range today along with the P14 and they both tumbled the rounds. One No4 has the standard 5 groove rifling and the other No4 has a two groove barrel. Niether cared for the heavier cast although I've had good success with LEE's 160gr boolit in previous shooting with the 5 groove barrel. Those two Enfields will have more work done with cast on them when I unpack from the move to Kansas.

In the meantime, the Lyman 314299 soon will be dedicated exclusively to the P14 unless I find its a good performer in my 7.7 Arisakas and Mosin Nagants...


Amazingly good performance, the mould and the rifle are both keepers!

I have a 1967 Ser11A LWB 6 cylinder Landrover, it is fitted with a Chrysler 265cu in Hemi motor and goes like the clappers (If you can stand the noise). When I got it, a mate at work who was an Aussie Army Auto Electrican in a former life had been kicked outof house by his totally mad wife and he was living in a friend's garage and walking three miles to work and back while he scratched up enough for a place of his own. I gave him my Ford Falcon which was a brilliant car and worth at least $1000 at the time in exchange for a complete no expense spared re-wiring of the Landrover (I supplied all of the bits, well over another thousand dollars :( ). Lord of Darkness Lucas dosen't get a look in. All circuits HD cable, all return to battery, alll citcuits with their own relay and circuit breaker, etc, etc, etc. The only way (not the cheapest way) to deal with the Dark Lord!

[Steppenwolf]

Looks like a beaut, I regret selling mine:-(