Col. Cooper's .45acp Load?

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I have read that Col. Cooper advocated a flat nosed 230gn load for the 1911 Government.

I have a 230gn flat nosed mold on the way; I'm wondering if anyone happens to know the velocity at which the load he liked was driven? I'm wanting to say it was over 900fps, but don't remember for sure.

Thanks,

Josh

[Gohon]

If I remember correctly, Coopers favorite load was a FMJ-FP ahead of 7.5 grains of Unique. Don't know what the FPS of that load would be though.

[Shiloh]

That would be a stout load. Several data sources lists 6.4 and 6.5 gr. as MAX. Just under 900 fps with them.

Shiloh

[frank505]

I shoot 7grains of Unique and the Ballisti cast version of the 230 FP. It does well from my 4" Kimber. 7.5 of Unique with the 200 grain Devastator really opens up on jacks.

[RKJ]

I used to use that load years ago (7.5 grains of Unique/200 Grain Cast SWC) and it was definitely stout. I shot it out of a 5" Govt Model and from what I can tell no harm to the gun and none to me either. I've backed off that load through the years though.

[BarryinIN]

From "Jeff Cooper on Handguns", 1979 printing:

"My own preference, duplicating GI recoil, is the 230 Adams bullet (a semi pointed lead bullet with a bore diameter cutting shoulder) and five grains of Bullseye. For maximum performance, the best choice is a 215 SWC lead bullet and 7.5 grains of Unique powder, for about 1075 fps."

I was pretty sure his standard handload advice when he answered letters in early 1970s Guns and Ammo columns was 7.0 grains of 7.5 Unique with the 230 FMJ or cast RN, but that above quote doesn't support that.

Note that the Hornady 230 FMJ-FP he preferred in later years was not available then, but came soon after.
I know he favored that bullet, but cannot find anything now on load data. I searched my downloaded set of "Cooper's Commentaries". While the projectile gets mentioned a few times, load data does not.

His next-to-last book "C Stories" has a chapter called "Yankee Fist", which I thought went into this a little, but looking through it just now I see no load info. Maybe I will think of where I saw it later.

[35remington]

I'd have to strongly caution against using 7 to 7.5 grains Unique with a 230. Given that 6.5 Unique gives over 920 fps with a 230 Lee cast flatpoint TC loaded to 1.220 OAL, and depending upon who makes your bullet and how deeply it is seated, such a load is not what we'd consider prudent. 7 grains would likely exceed the velocities of 230 factory +P (950 fps). I doubt the 7 grain load would blow the gun up but it's likely to increase battering of the pistol, being hotter than it was designed to shoot in any quantity.

Forget 7.5 grains for any use!

Lyman, for some reason, lists 7.3 Unique with a 225 grain 452374in their 49th edition, but such a load is quite considerably in error, and gives much higher velocity than they list. They have badly needed to update their Unique data with cast bullets for some time now. Don't duplicate it!

7.3 Unique with a 200 HG 68 pattern SWC will give from 1100 to 1150 fps depending upon which version you're using and that charge can be understood to be inadvisable with a 230 for that very reason.

[Dannix]

I wonder if Unique is simply hotter nowadays?

Haven't shot any +P+ .45 myself. I imagine .45 Super or .460 Rowland would be a safer route to try it though.

[BarryinIN]

I think there might be something to the theory of Unique being hotter/faster now.

Lyman was listing a 7.2 load before the 49th edition. I know it goes at least as far back as the 45th edition, where they showed 7.2 grains with the 452374 (967 fps) and with the 230 FMJ (960 fps). So it wasn't just a one time error. It was either a repetitive error or OK with the Unique of the period.

Hornady's Third Edition manual lists 7.3 grains of Unique with the 230 FMJ (FP and RN) for 900 fps.

My #11 Speer manual tops out at 6.9 with the 230 FMJ (851 fps), but goes to 7.2 with their 225 JHP (940 fps).

But no, I don't think I would go over 7.0 now, if that much. So maybe there was a change.

[257 Shooter]

Alliant shows 6.3GR Unique for 880FPS with a 230 GR boolit.

[Milltown353]

And I was worried about using 6 grains of unique....

[Dale53]

This is where a chronograph can be quite useful. For the record, there is NO way I would use 7.5 grs of Unique (old OR new) behind a 230 gr jacketed bullet in a 1911.

I would suggest using a chronograph to verify and use no more than 6.5 grs behind a 230 gr jacketed bullet (I would limit myself to 850 fps with a 230 gr jacketed as a limit). I would use no more than 7.0 grs of Unique behind a 230 gr cast bullet and limit myself to no more than 900 fps.

There is absolutely NO reason to batter the gun trying to get another 50 fps as your target will NOT know the difference (but your pistol will).

It is better to be a bit conservative with the 1911. They are a wonderful platform but they WILL break.

Dale53

[fredj338]

This is where a chronograph can be quite useful. For the record, there is NO way I would use 7.5 grs of Unique (old OR new) behind a 230 gr jacketed bullet in a 1911.

I would suggest using a chronograph to verify and use no more than 6.5 grs behind a 230 gr jacketed bullet (I would limit myself to 850 fps with a 230 gr jacketed as a limit). I would use no more than 7.0 grs of Unique behind a 230 gr cast bullet and limit myself to no more than 900 fps.

There is absolutely NO reason to batter the gun trying to get another 50 fps as your target will NOT know the difference (but your pistol will).

It is better to be a bit conservative with the 1911. They are a wonderful platform but they WILL break.

Dale53

Why would you load the lead bullet a full grain hotter? IME, lead bullet loads always use less powder to achieve sim. vel & pressures as jacketed. Running 230grLRN & RNFMJ w/ 6gr of Unique, shows 845fps & 820fps respectively. I would view 7gr as max w/ a 230grFMJ & 6.5gr w/ 230grLRN. That will be pushing a chronographed 900fps in a 5" bbl.

[MtGun44]

Lead will produce less pressure at given powder level due to lower bore friction. So you
will be able to safely drive the lead version a bit faster, pressurewise.

Bill

[Dale53]

fredj338;
I suggested a ½" grain difference for the reason that MtGun44 presented.

Use the chronograph as the limit as suggested.

FWIW
Dale53

[fredj338]

Lead will produce less pressure at given powder level due to lower bore friction. So you
will be able to safely drive the lead version a bit faster, pressurewise.

Bill
I know it's debatable, but I just don't buy the less friction thought. Less friction, less vel. You see it in moly coated jacketed. Same charge wts, less vel w/ the slicker bullet. So thinking less friction w/ a lead bullet is why the vel is higher just doesn't seem to be right. IMO, better gas seal=higher vel w/ lead bullets for the same charge wt. I would love to see some pressure numbers either way. This is an example, I know the OAL & bullet styles are not identical, but it's a guide. Food for thought.
115 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP
115 GR. SPR GDHP Winchester 231 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP
147 GR. JHP Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 4.0 900 30,100 PSI 4.3 935 32,300 PSI
147 GR. LEAD CFP Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 3.7 905 28,500 PSI 4.1 965 32,800 PSI

[Dannix]

IMO, better gas seal=higher vel w/ lead bullets for the same charge wt.
Interesting. :coffeecom