Water quenching question...

[Bad luck Bill]

When dropping boolits while casting, how soon after casting should they be sized, some people say immediately...would this mean the same day or within the hour of that particular casting session? Let's say I cast 500 boolits, then take breather for an hour or so, will it still be considered "prime time" to size them?

Thanks,

BLB. :castmine:

[georgeld]

BBB:
I don't do it til I'm good and ready.
It usually take's me a week to cast a batch as most time's that consists of a two gallon bucket full.
Once they are all cast that are intended. Then I'll sit down and size them til my arm's play out and work in shifts til it's done even if it takes a month or two to get them all done. Then they'll be aloxed and dried, then go into a sealed bucket til I'm ready to start loading them.

Many times, IF I've got that much brass, the whole batch might be loaded in a like series of loading sessions.

All the bullets I cast are dropped from the mold into a 5 gal bucket of water. The temp depends on the air temp in the shop at the time. Long as it don't have a hunk of ice in it, or too dirty that's what's used to drop them in, wash my grubby hands in, cool hot iron from torching, or the lathe etc.

Admittedly I'm different than anyone else, so no doubt this will differ from the other replies you get.

Wish you luck, enjoy,

[Bass Ackward]

Bill,

It all depends. I store bullets unsized because I have 6 different 44s that all prefer a different diameter. Then if I want to change lubes or something, I have that option. I heat treat later for the same reason although you can reverse HT by heating the oven up to 450 degrees and then just shutting it off and leave the door closed until totally normal. They will soften back up by 14 days. So since I do a lot of experimentation, and I mold large quantities of bullets all winter, I store unsided and un heat treated.

But the problem as your question asks is that if I mold for 2 hours. Dump the water and dry the bullets I have 2 1/2 hours from the time the first bullet was dropped. If the heat treatment was normal, this bullet can be much harder than the last bullet poured just 1/2 hour ago. Lets stay with 44 caliber for simplicity sake, when sized through the same die, I will have bullets that vary by .0015 in diameter because hard bullets size bigger because of springback.

So it depends on how accurate you want or need your bullets to be. Here are some rough figures from actual batches.

.431 hole in sizer.

Pure lead .4310
ACWW just molded 8 BHN .4313
ACWW 14 BHN .4315
20 BHN or 22 BHN Lino .4318
28 BHN .4323
35 BHN .4325

So you see how many sizers you would need in 44 caliber if you wanted all bullet to be .4315 in this case. OR that if you size right away and your heat treatment is working correctly, you will have bullet diameters all over the place.

Help any?

[sundog]

It seems to me that an ideal situation, for rifle boolits, would be that the dropped size would be the size needed to fill the throat. Based on that, a sizer just a tad larger would then afford GC seat and lube without touching the boolit -- as long as the GC is not too large thus stretching the case mouth on seating and not getting good neck tension on the rest of the boolit. Any variation of a few ten thousands shouldn't be any big deal as the boolit is getting swaged to bbl dimension when you light'er off anyway. Works for me. sundog

[Bad luck Bill]

It kind of helped Bass, but what I'd like to know is if it will work fine to size them a few hours after casting without any loss in hardness? In other words, Cast, water quench, take a break, come back a few hours later and size them, then lube them (Tumble lube for the time being), then store them for a few days before shooting to give them a chance to harder up a bit more. I wonder what the hardness is after water quenching a day later, any idea on that?

BLB.

[drinks]

BLB;
I did some trials on w/c bullets of ww with a small amount of chilled shot added.
Day of casting, BHN11.
Next day, BHN 16.
3 days, BHN 22
7 days BHN 28.
There is a time sensitive curve, so sizing the day cast is the easiest.

[44man]

I have not found any difference in accuracy if sized right away to sized a year later. I never size a lot and use oversize dies. I don't think sizing a lot is good. I use my dies to lube or in the case of the Lee push through dies, to take off excess lube. I hardly touch the lead. You would be better served to not size the boolits down.

[Bass Ackward]

It kind of helped Bass, but what I'd like to know is if it will work fine to size them a few hours after casting without any loss in hardness? In other words, Cast, water quench, take a break, come back a few hours later and size them, then lube them (Tumble lube for the time being), then store them for a few days before shooting to give them a chance to harder up a bit more. I wonder what the hardness is after water quenching a day later, any idea on that?

BLB.


BLB,

You may never "see" the answer to that question yourself. But it is good to be able to understand the difference for later results.

Very seldom do you need a totally hard bullet to prevent leading. In fact, use too small of diameter and no matter how hard the bullet, you will still get leading. So what happens when we water drop a bullet? Well it gets harder the whole way through. That means the bullet gets stronger as if we increased the chemical composition to resist pressure. So as long as your lube film is adequate, the surface softness could be as soft as pure lead and it could still be driven at fantastic velocities.

So now the bad news. It does soften back to it's air cooled chemical composition if it is sized. It may take 14 to 30 days, but it does soften to the depth the surface is disturbed. It is important to understand this if pushing the envelope for pressures and velocities. Veral Smith always recommended developing your loads in the hottest month, so they would be "safe" the rest of the year. And he is right as it pertains to "safety".

Now if your leading is coming from friction caused by rotational forces of the rifling instead of pressure on the base, then a soft(er) skin can strip and give way to leading. In this case, if a guy doesn't understand what is happening, then he may believe that HTing is inferior to a higher chemical composition bullet when in fact, sizing has caused his problem. You can see this debate at benchrest matches where 1/2 of the guys shoot lino or harder and 1/2 heat treat.

But I would say that especially with handguns, more leading is caused by improper powder selection causing pressure to spike higher than the yield strength of the mix will bear before the bullet over comes inertia. Here, you will NEVER notice surface softening and believe that water dropping is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

But it does soften. Just so you know.

[Bad luck Bill]

Hmmm...I'm a little confused now Bass. I figured that they wouldn't soften up for quite a long time, about a good year to a year and a half. I have heard of the bullets getting soft at the places where the sizing die touched them but thought if you size within a couple of hours this was a non-issue. Somewhere on this forum I had read that the water dropped bullets hardened beyond just the surface of the bullet, ie., all of the way to the core, if not the core then at least past the "skin" of the bullet.

Okay, how about this: Instead of quenching, why not just cast and size, then anneal the bullets in the oven? Aren't they supposed to get harder that way? Plus, you have no worries about softening because they have been sized before the annealing.

Proper powder selection....I guess there is a lot more to it than I had previously thought! Bullseye for non-magnum loads (A quick powder, as you well know) or something like 2400 for Magnum loads, and Unique for the ones in the middle. I know it's a little more complicated that that but in general, I thought that was about right. I have read that people do push pure lead very fast and never have a problem with leading. As to my revolver and my experience thus far I think it's the lack of hardness of the lead I'm using. but until I get some good advice from my betters I just won't know until I do more experimenting on my own.

I cast some plain ww bullets, not water quenched, then loaded them up over 11.0gr of 2400 and experienced leading. I then water quenched the same ww alloy and loaded up the same load...the water dropped wheel weights were only allowed to harder for a day or so (They were sized a few hours after casting) and I experienced a lot less leading. I plan to use the same batch of ww water quenched bullets next week, after they've had a chance to harder over a week and see if I get any leading. So Bass, what can you tell me after hearing all of this? Is the load a problem? I'm shooting this load out of a 6.5 inch Blackhawk (.357). I also have a load that I shoot with Unique, 6.5 grs of Unique and the same bullets...a little leading, but not too much. I plan to do the same thing with the unique laod to see if the older bullets have hardened and if the leading is reduced further.

I wonder if you would mind giving a slight treatise on this subject? You seem to know quite a bit about the subject and I'm eager to learn. My next step could also be to shoot some of the same bullets unsized and see what the results are. It is possible that the sizing is doing the damage, but I don't think so. When I place the bullets (before I load them of course) inside the throats of my chamber (sized) they stop and do not just pass through or drop out. In order to get them to go through the chamber I have to apply gentle pressure with a pencil and they pop out the other side. When my bullets are unsized it felt like I would have to apply a tremendous amount of pressure in order to get them to exit out the other side of the chamber. What can you tell, if anything, from these results?

By the way, as to trying to reduce my group sizes when shooting, I'm not using a bench rest or anything. I'm shooting offhand duelist, which I find to be the most challenging type of shooting to do with a revolver. I'm positive some of the loads I am shooting are accurate as they are classic loads for accuracy and target shooting. besides that fact when benched the gun will shoot sub 2" groups at 50 feet. I generally shoot at one of those neon orange shoot -n- sees, eight inch bull at fifty feet. My common practice is to shoot 48 rounds at the bull, trying to place every round within the eight inch bull. I have noticed my over-all grouping (of so many shots and not just five or ten) to be getting smaller. But I kind of think this might not be the best way to improve. I'm just looking for different suggestions on how I might improve. Please limit the vague respones like "Practice, practice, etc".

Thanks,

BLB. :castmine:

[Bass Ackward]

1. Hmmm...I'm a little confused now Bass. I figured that they wouldn't soften up for quite a long time, about a good year to a year and a half. I have heard of the bullets getting soft at the places where the sizing die touched them but thought if you size within a couple of hours this was a non-issue. Somewhere on this forum I had read that the water dropped bullets hardened beyond just the surface of the bullet, ie., all of the way to the core, if not the core then at least past the "skin" of the bullet.

2. Okay, how about this: Instead of quenching, why not just cast and size, then anneal the bullets in the oven?

BLB. :castmine:


BLB,

Please reread my response above again. That is what I said.

Just understand also how sizing occurs. Ideal sizing removes no metal. It relocates it. When a bullet is sized it get's longer and follows the path of least resistance. That means that it will flow forward up to the half way point and then flow back for the rest. Lead will flow into the grease grooves also. One of the reasons that sizing has a bad rap on accuracy is that most molds are base pour. Air bubble defects will tend to rise and be trapped in the base. As the bullet is sized and lengthens, the colapsed pocket will NOT extend back as far as the solid locations thus throwing the base out of square. So even though you are only "lightly" sizing say .001, you will be going some deeper than that. How far would depend on more variables than I can list. Obviously the harder the bullet, the more shallow the surface displacement. Which is why for some guys sizing right away is OK and others say size after hardness. It's based on their circumstances.

2. Heat treating lead,no matter the method, hardens unpredictibly. It can take one day or 30. The same metal batch may give you 35 BHN 30s and only 24 BHN 45s. You never know. Softening undisturbed bullets happens over 1 year and stabilizes at room temps or higher. HTWW will usually stabilize at 18-20. But are we talking 30s or 45s? There is a big difference in the pressure level that a bullet can withstand between 20 and 35. A high end load with a less than slippery lube like 50/50 Alox developed in cold weather with a 35 BHN bullet would be unsafe in August when it lowered to 20 BHN.

So there is some safety factor involved in what guys tell you until you get your feet on the ground. Like starting low with powder charges and working up. Imagine someone telling you to dip a case in powder and scrape off the top with a straight edge and seat a bullet. Well that would work with some cases and some powders but eventually you are going to reach a combination that will get you into trouble. We all know that. Same with heat treating actually. Depending on your bore condition, your lube, your ambient temperature, HTing can be unsafe and throw much more pressure than expected. Safety, safety, safety. Everyone expects to shoot ammo quickly, but sometimes it sits around longer than you wanted. You need to load for that softest or worst case senario.

Oven HTing is an art. It is the best way to get .... consistency from bullet to bullet and some of the issues with droping and sizing are eliminated. You see that. Your 11 grains load is not a fast load really. By that I mean that rotational force doesn't come into play and won't with most handguns. You are strengthening the bullet core which expands less at the base and plain ol WDWW is working. Please reread my response above. That is what I was saying.

Powder speed is like two cars impacting in a rear end collision. Picture yourself in the vehicle being hit. One senario is for you to be dead stopped and the other car traveling at 25 mph. The second senario is the car that hits you is still going 25 mph but you are accelerating now and up to 20 mph when the collision occurs. In which senario is your car going to recieve the least damage? The second one right? That is what you want to do with a cast bullet. Create the least amount of damaging force on the base of the bullet as possible. So in order to do that you can harden the bullet so that it withstands more but that is limited. Or .... you can adjust powder speed so that a bullet is moving farther and faster before the pressure peeks.

Using my Quickload program, a 30-06, 160 grain bullet and a failure pressure level assuming 28,000 psi for a certain hardness. 13.6 grains of Bullseye is 27,998 psi and peeks in .8" of bullet travel with bullet velocity at that time of 568 fps and will yield 1700 fps muzzle velocity.

Same as above but now 32.5 grains of 4198 yields 27,930 psi and peeks in 2.2" of bullet travel going 865 fps at peek yielding a muzzle velocity of 2165 fps.

Same as above with 50 grains of 4831 yields 27,898 psi and peeks in 2.8" of bullet travel with a velocity of 983 fps at peek pressure creating 2279 fps muzzle velocity.

But the kicker is that because less damage is being done with the bullet going faster, your pressure limit is no longer 28,000 psi but goes up to 34,000. This means you can get 2600 fps with the same hardness using 4831 that stopped at 1700 fps with the Bullseye. Which one will be the most accurate? That will be based on your conditions and whether you can get good enough ignition to burn the powder consistently. If you can't go past 4895 powder, then you will have a lower velocity ceiling than a guy using 4831 but faster than the 4198 fellow. Understand powder selection now?

Same thing applies to handguns which is why the best velocities with PB bullets comes with the slowest powders. Less pressure on the base. And the goal is to go as slow as possible while still maintaining good ignition or small extreme spreads. So before you get excited, 4831 is out for handguns. But that is why there are sooooo many powders crammed into a narrow range for handguns powders.

[Bad luck Bill]

Okay Bass, I'm understanding you a little more now but I still have a few questions concerning powders. Seems like Bullseye is a big choice for most handgun shooters yet it produces the impact you talked about, the car getting hit while the bullet is just standing still when it would be optimal for the bullet to be moving a bit before taking the brunt of the force of the pressures, i.e, getting the top end of the pressure curve while moving. I still don't completely understand pressures and powder though. Could you explain it a little further, more examples. So why do people use Bullseye (quick) for smaller loads and then use, say, 2400 for larger magnum loads (I know 11.0 grs isn't too strong but it has a lot more ass then 5.0grs of Bullseye). So when the peek pressure occours the bullet is already in a state of movement which means less damage to the base, less trauma to the bullet. I need to comprehend the advantages of when to use a slower powder vs. a quicker one. I did notice that when I uped charges of Bullseye and shot them it was more uncomfortable then a slower burning powder. Is this where the moving vehicle example kicks in? Is that why slower burning powders are optimal for higher velocities, because they gradually build up there peek forces where as Bullseye just lets it all go immediately?

BLD.

P.S.,

Thanks for the great post Bass!

[Bass Ackward]

Is this where the moving vehicle example kicks in? Is that why slower burning powders are optimal for higher velocities, because they gradually build up there peek forces where as Bullseye just lets it all go immediately?


BLB,

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read my examples again but change 30-06 to 357. 4831 powder in a 357 is called 4227. The same logic spread applies. The only reason to change powders is to get "proper" ignition at the velocity you want to run with the hardness of bullet you are using. If you chose 4227 wanting an 800 fps load, you would get erratic ignition because the pressure would be too low to burn it properly. So you would climb the ladder until you reach success. The anneal of the brass has a lot to do with this also as it is needed to seal the chamber for consistent velocities, but I don't want to confuse you.

Another way to look at it that slower powders allow you to shoot cheaper (softer) mixes at the same velocity. Understand?

[Bad luck Bill]

Yes, I'm starting to get things now but I'd still like a more in depth understanding. I know you can only go so far, so forgive me for asking for "too much". So...what is the real advantage of Bullseye and quick powders? Economy? I notice that a lot of the classic .38 special loads use Bullseye. Like the waddcutter load, 2.7-2.9grs, of Bullseye or the very accurate 3.0gr. Bullseye load under the Lyman #358311. There has to be a good reason for this, I just don't know what it is yet, unles I made a good guess earlier in this post, which I think I haven't. Could it be that a quick powder is better for the lower end of the spectrum, i.e., 800-1000 FPS? No damage to the base of the bullet and safe pressures?

Thanks again Bass, you've been giving me some great advice. By the way...are those powders you're speaking of IMR powders? Who makes them? I really have only been using Alliant powders and Hodgdon's Tight Group. I haven't even thought of getting a rifle until I understand all of these things a lot better....knowledge is power.

Bad Luck Bill. :castmine:

[Bass Ackward]

So...what is the real advantage of Bullseye and quick powders? Economy?

Could it be that a quick powder is better for the lower end of the spectrum, i.e., 800-1000 FPS? No damage to the base of the bullet and safe pressures?

Thanks again Bass, you've been giving me some great advice. By the way...are those powders you're speaking of IMR powders? Who makes them? I really have only been using Alliant powders and Hodgdon's Tight Group. I haven't even thought of getting a rifle until I understand all of these things a lot better....knowledge is power.

Bad Luck Bill. :castmine:


BLB,

Just study a loading manual for any and every cartridge. For every bullet, there will be one powder that gives the highest velocity. Then as you go to heavier bullets, watch the highest velocities go to slower and slower powders.

Don't misunderstand this, but you have quite a learning curve ahead of you so don't rush. Read everything you can get your hands on. Use the search function on this board for topics you want to learn about. There has already been libraries written here many times over.

Yes. Faster powders are cheaper per shot. Also cleaner most of the time. Important when you are competing sometimes. You don't need to go hog wild on powder selections. Who made them is really unimportant at this point. I was just trying to mention those that are very common and you will see in the manuals. Had you heard of them, this would have made more sence. But study a manual and come back and read this whole thread again until it really clicks.

And you are most welcome. Always start low and work up no mater what you do. Safety, safety, safety.

[Bad luck Bill]

Bass,

No problem, I understand what you're trying to say. I have no problems excepting my current knowledge level as it pertains to all of this information. That's one reason it is such a great hobby, you can go as deep or as shallow as you like and still have a good time. I just picked up that Lyman #358311 mold, literally a few minutes ago so I'll be casting up a bunch of them to shoot later on this week. I've got a lot to learn and a long way to go until I feel confident to say I'm a good shot with a revolver.

You never did mention anything about good shooting techniques, a good distance to start at, et ceteria, what gives? I'm sure you have a lot of practical experience that you could passon to me. :mrgreen:

Thanks for the time and the good information. I'm very greatful. I only have the first addition copy of Lee's Modern Reloading and I hear it's not the best one to have. I want to get Lyman's casting Bible and whatever else is good for a begginer.

Bad Like Bill. :castmine:

[MT Gianni]

BL Bill, I would shoot 50 to 100 lbs of plain ww first in all situations to see if you really need to Heat treat. HT will give you certain things but air cooled seems to be enough for most shooting needs and almost all pistol. Gianni.

[Bad luck Bill]

I already have and I've found that I need the hardness for the hotter loads. I still have a lot of experimentation to do and I don't quench all of my bullets. I shoot plenty of loads where plain wheel weights do just fine. But when ww's lead over 11.0 grains of 2400 something is wrong, so I'm trying to find out the cause by running different tests. That is not exactly a hot load and I'm getting some leading, not too much but more than I think I should. I'm also getting a little leading with plain cast whell weights over 6.5 grains of Unique out of a 6.5 inch Blackhawk barrel. The only thing I haven't tried yet is not sizing my bullets, that's going to be my next test. I still need to slug my barrel to see what I'm working with but I've never done it and need some advice on how to go about doing it properly.

BLB> :castmine:

[Maven]

BlB, Re water dropping v. heat-treating of cast bullets and time needed to reach max. hardness: search the web for Dennis Marshall, Jr's. writings on the subject--very detailed & informative. Re leading in your Ruger BH with 6gr. Unique: I have two of these, one in .357mag. and a .44mag. (8gr. Unique, sized to .432"). Neither leaves much lead in the bore, just a few bits in the forcing cone and that's easy enough to remove. In the .357mag., once I began sizing to .359" as per Dave Scoville's suggestion in "Handloader," most leading disappeared when using 7gr. Unique. Your idea of using unsized CB's may be just the ticket and is the easiest remedy. Try it with the lube you presently use and tell us how you fare.*


*Worst case scenario could be a rough bore and/or one with a constriction near the forcing cone.

[StarMetal]

I have a Smith Model 19, also had a Taurus with a six inch barrel. I cast WW's and sometimes water quench them and other times I don't. I shoot the RCBS 150 SWC. I use 50/50 NRA formula lube. I size my bullets to .357. My standard plinking load for the 357 is 6.0 grs of unique. I do have this same bullet loaded over a stiff charge of 2400 also. Never had a leading issue. In either gun. In fact in any of my guns. Just like Maven said you will get alittle of lead residue here and there. I'm talking about alot of leading that you have to work your elbows off to clean out. I'm not sold on the fatter the better. I'd say your lube or perhaps a rough bore, but it would be interesting to see what happens if you try them fatter.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

You never did mention anything about good shooting techniques, a good distance to start at, et ceteria, what gives? I'm sure you have a lot of practical experience that you could passon to me. :mrgreen:

Thanks for the time and the good information. I'm very greatful. I only have the first addition copy of Lee's Modern Reloading and I hear it's not the best one to have. I want to get Lyman's casting Bible and whatever else is good for a begginer.

Bad Like Bill. :castmine:


BLB,

My idea of perfect load development in a handgun is a Ransom rest. But because I often choose practicality options, I use a bag. :grin: With open sights, I prefer 35 yards just because I that is the farthest I can see my targets well enough to trust myself.

With my red dot scope, I shoot better groups at 50 yards than any other range. My guess is that is the distance where it is focused. So guess what range I use with that gun?

Can't win fair in life, cheat. Rifles are easy. Handguns will make you talk to yourself. You should have started with the rifle. :grin:

[Bad luck Bill]

Tell me about it! Rifles are cake! (Sorry to all the rifle guys) Learning how to shoot a pistol/revolver offhand take serious skill and a lot of practice. I'll have to settle for either 50 feet or 25 yards. A friend of mine told me to shoot to my ability but another buddy said I'd improve faster by shooting at 25 yards. I think I just might stay at 16 and 1/2 yards for the time being. When I can shoot 3 inch groups offhand duelist consistantly I'll move out to 25 yards.

I think I'm going to stick to just two loads for awhile and practice as much as possible. I figure that Lyman #358311 over 3.0gr. of Bullseye/Tight Group should be an excellent load to start with. I also want to develop a good load for the #358477 and I think 3.2gr of Tight Group might do just fine. I'll also load up some stiff magnum loads for fun so I can shoot some stuff at longer distances. you can go crazy shooting only paper all day.

I've noticed that I frequently talk to myself now that I shoot handguns!

BLB > :castmine:

[45 2.1]

I think I just might stay at 16 and 1/2 yards for the time being. When I can shoot 3 inch groups offhand duelist consistantly I'll move out to 25 yards.

Get yourself the little price stickers that are about 5/8" in diameter. Stick those on some cardboard at 7 yds. When you can hit everyone of those in sequence without cutting the outer edge, then you will be ready to move back. You will have to work at it just to hit every one when you start. You will be good when you can pinwheel each one. BTW, those stickers look like the end of a popcan at 50 yds.

[Bad luck Bill]

You also said that the Lyman #358311 was the most accurate round with 3.0gr of Bullseye underneath, correct? Why is it so much more accurate then, say, a SWC or a WC? I guess the round nose offers superior ballistics? I heard that a round nosed bullet actually wiggled in flight as it spun, just the nose portion, where as a wadcutter was very stable. What do you have to say about that? Did the person who told me this know what he was talking about?

BLB.

[44man]

Never shoot at large targets! Shoot at the smallest target you can see at the distance. I do this with archery too, a 1" piece of paper will give more accuracy then an 8" spot.

[45 2.1]

You also said that the Lyman #358311 was the most accurate round with 3.0gr of Bullseye underneath, correct?
Yes

Why is it so much more accurate then, say, a SWC or a WC? I guess the round nose offers superior ballistics? I heard that a round nosed bullet actually wiggled in flight as it spun, just the nose portion, where as a wadcutter was very stable. What do you have to say about that? Did the person who told me this know what he was talking about?
I said that because it shot better than the other two types, no theory, but actual results. Try it and find out for yourself.

[Bad luck Bill]

Ouch! I was just asking bro...no harm intended. I plan on trying it out as soon as I get a chance. My wedding anniversary is this Thursday (figures, the weather is going to be ripe for shooting!) so this week is a wash. Maybe I'll get to the range Sunday, if I'm lucky. I'm not a bad shot by any means, just not where I want to be. I figure if I put in the time and learn the proper techniques I should eventually be a crack shot.

BLB.

[robertbank]

We all have different experiences. I have found the 158 gr SWC design to be exptemely accurate in my K 38 and Model 27. Far more accurate that I can shoot. Personally I doubt there is much to choose in practical terms when it comes to accuracy of the two bullets but that is just my opinion. Most reloading manuals have an assortment of loads for the bullet. all you have to do is find the right combo for your gun and your needs.

I believe 4 gr Bullseye under 148 gr WC was an old bullseye shooters load that has been around for years.

Take Care

Bob

[felix]

Bob, it was 2.7 grains, not 4.0. However, most have migrated to 2.9 grains to avoid a possible SEE that was reported using 2.7 back in the mid 70's on the east coast. Verfied by quite a few during a match, being that a lot of rounds were taken apart to check powder load consistency. Nothing found off of the 2.7 norm. ... felix

[Bad luck Bill]

Yup, The classic WC load was/is 2.7gr of Bullseye and it is damn accurate just not very powerful. More of a "pop" then a "crack" or a "boom" sound. I'm very eager to try the #358311 bullet over top 3.0gr of Bullseye or Tight Group. I might even load a few with 3.3gr of Unique to see what kind of a difference I get. I'm also gonna load up some Magnum loads, maybe 12.5-13.5gr of 2400, should be a lot of fun!

BLB> :castmine:

[45nut]

Never shoot at large targets! Shoot at the smallest target you can see at the distance. I do this with archery too, a 1" piece of paper will give more accuracy then an 8" spot.
Aim small,miss small?

[StarMetal]

I like 44man's target ideas. I never started shooting a handgun at close up targets. I started shooting far targets. My theory was if you learn to hit them far you can always hit them close. It worked for me. In fact when I went handgun shooting with my friend I wouldn't shoot if they were going to shoot close. Now that I think about that, I was rude. One friend called said hey come over and bring your 22 handgun with you. Well I showed up with my 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk. First thing he said "Why'd you bring that cannon for, you aren't going to hit anything with"? Well he had some empty pepsi cans and we set them up. He walked back 25 yards. I says "I'm not shooting, this is too close". He said "Ok, deadeye, walk back to where you want". I went back to 50 yards. He had put a few of the cans on branches and one leaned over the bottom end was facing us. He said "Go ahead deadeye". I said I'll shoot the one leaning over. BOOM! The can never moved but a black spot appeared dead center in the bottom of it. He unloaded his handgun and walked back to the house. he wouldn't shoot. There's alot more times like that one.

I had doubted 44man's shooting abilities with a handgun, he doubted mine, until we both posted targets shot at 100 yards. Talked to him on the phone too. He's good, damn good. He said I was good also. Thanks 44man.

Maybe there is something to mine and 44man's target technique training.

How many of you can stand up, take a large caliber handgun, and shoot popcans down at 100 yards? I use to be able to just mow them down. I'm alot older now, and have bad eyes (RK surgery gone bad). Off a rest or closer up I still shoot pretty good.

Now I'll know what alot of you will think when I say the next statement "yeah, no wonder, because he's rude and arrogant", but I've pissed off alot of shooter because I out shot them. My best friend's girlfriend almost broke up with him. I'll explain. She was on a competition shooting team. The two guns she shot with were a Colt Gold Cup and a Colt Python. Carl had been telling her about how his friend shot pretty decent. She wanted to go out shooting one time. Carl said no, you'll get pissed off cause he'll out shoot you. She said she wouldn't and also that I probably wouldn't outshoot her. Well to make the story short, not only did I outshoot her, but with her own guns. She was beginning to think something was the matter with her guns cause she wasn't hitting the targets I was. I said let me see them and proceeded to knock the targets with them. She got mad. Carl said "See, I told you so".

I would shoot close up first, only to sight the handgun in. Get the sights aligned. After that I started shooting empty 22 box at 50 to 75 yards. Then with the bigger calibers it was popcans at 100 yards. They it got to be the old 1 pound coffeecans at 2-300 yards. That's all I did, weekly.

Whatever distance you choose to start at, practice, practice, practice.

One thing this old boy CAN'T do, is shoot aerial targets. I give the reason being that in my younger years I never lived in areas where that could be done safely. Wife and I moved out west long after I was still young. So I'm no good with a handgun or rifle on aerial targets. I admire guys that can do that well. I also never got into shooting trap...just don't like shotgun..except for smallgame hunting. So I'm no good at say dove hunting. I am on pheasants thought, but those are alot bigger and alot slower then doves.

Okay, I see the poop I've spread is near the top of you fellows waders so I'll stop. Thanks for listening.

Joe

[44man]

Yup, what star says is right. What I used to do is long gone, eyes not good anymore. I have one up on Joe though. I used to be able to shoot bottles out of the air with my Ruger .22 pistol. I would hold the gun in my left hand, throw the bottle as far as I could with my right hand, grab the pistol and break the bottle. I would also put tape on a washer and shoot a hole through it with a pellet rifle with no sights on it. No can do anymore! What some of us used to do would amaze some of the new guys! I was shooting 200 yd's with a .44 before most handgun shooters knew there WAS 200 yd's. I put 12 straight shots into a 5 gallon can at 400 meters with my .44.
Joe is a nice guy and I believe what he says because I have been there, done that. We had a lot of friendly arguments for fun, but both of us have more respect for each other now.
I do miss the friendly heckling!

[StarMetal]

44man,

Here's my idea of a bullseye for a target. Being I love military rifle and don't like to modify them, I need a bullseye I can see. I thought about taking an LED and a battery and mounting that LED in the center of the bullseye and runing the wires to a battery. I should be able to see that against the black of the bullseyes and I figured noway I could hit that LED, if I did I could use it for bragging rights here. Whatya think pardner?

Now another idea is one I talked to buckshot about. That is mount some wee little round target of some sort just a few yards out from your benchrest. This would only be a reference aiming point. The target at 100 yards would catch the "group". You know with even iron sights that your rifle don't line up dead on at close objects, so you won't be hitting this close reference point, but it has to be far away enough the muzzle blast doesn't move it. Whatya think?

Anyone, chime in, us old fellers can see good, but we still can do the rest of the shooting stuff just fine. I don't shake yet :roll:

Joe
P.S. Thanks for the kinda words 44man, you're a pretty cool guy yourself.

[45 2.1]

That is mount some wee little round target of some sort just a few yards out from your benchrest. This would only be a reference aiming point. The target at 100 yards would catch the "group". You know with even iron sights that your rifle don't line up dead on at close objects, so you won't be hitting this close reference point, but it has to be far away enough the muzzle blast doesn't move it. Whatya think?

Anyone, chime in, us old fellers can see good, but we still can do the rest of the shooting stuff just fine. I don't shake yet :roll:



OK, Joe. I'll chime in. You set up a 1/2" or 5/8" dot at 7 yds to aim at and catch the group at 100 yds. Then shoot a group at 100 yds using a 7" to 8.5" target and tell us the group sizes from each. That should give some insight into what has been going on in this thread.

[Bad luck Bill]

That sounds like some pretty amazing shooting! what did you mean by "aerial" targets? Moving targets in the air like skeet or trap? I believe what you older fellows are saying. The best shots I've seen yet have come from guys over the age of 45 or 50 years old. I haven't seen one young guy yet who could shoot worth a ****! Excuse my french! Aim small miss small seems like good advice to me, what else could you offer me in the way of getting better with my revolver?

The range I shoot at, at least on the pistol side, is only 50 yards max. The best shooting I've seen at 50 yards came from an old guy who was making a water bottle "dance" pretty good, shot after shot. The other was an older school shop teacher who shoots a custom built .45 1911. He shoots at 25 yards and consistantly shoots 3" groups. He shot some clays for me at 50 yards and took every one out with a single shot. That's pretty good shooting to me. I can hit clays and water bottles at fifty yards but it sometimes takes a few shots, other times, when I'm in the zone, I can do pretty darn good. But nothing like you two were talking about. Maybe a few years in my future, if I dedicate myself.

BLB.

[StarMetal]

Bad Luck Bill,

My advice to better shooting a handgun are: Having a good, I mean good, I mean really damn good, trigger. Then front sight control. Those two things made the biggest difference then anything else.

Story...I bashed and bashed and bashed the new 92 Berettas when they first came for the military. Then my one good friend bought one. He took it to the range with us one day. He set a white plastic milk jug up at 100 yards, loaded the magazine full in the pistol, handed it to me, and said "here, try it". After about two shots I was hitting the jug and danced it all around with the remaining 14 shots. I handed the pistol back to him and he said "What do you have to say bad about Beretta's now?" I said "Nothing, I'm amazed at how good they shoot". He was laughing.

Joe

[44man]

Joe, I would not see the diode without a scope but I REALLY like the idea of a close aiming spot. This old coot never thought of that idea! I'm gonna do it. With open sights it can be small and close. With a scope it has to be at the right distance where there is no parallax. Be great shooting 200 yd's or more with an aiming spot at 50 yd's or so. Just have to adjust the elevation to either shoot over or under the spot. Testing group size doesn't matter where they hit at range as long as they are on paper. I could suspend a penny or nickel to aim at.
Dang but you be smart!

[44man]

Joe, the Beretta is a good gun but I seen pictures of the slide cracking after a certain amount of rounds. Ruger drilled and cut holes in their slide and about wore out the barrels without a crack.

[StarMetal]

44man,

I'm happy you liked the idea. You know on all these new cars and truck (including semi's) they are using those led diodes tail light. You can tell them as they look like a bunch of red dots put together and they are evenly bright all the ways around. Now I bet you could see one of those.

Let me know how that close up aiming point works for you. I haven't gotten around to trying either of my ideas.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

BLB,

Now see there. Those are the guys to tell you how to shoot.

Dummie me, I took 20 years to realize you were supposed to use the sights on a wheeler. And for God's sakes, I now have a scope on one!

Space age we are!

[44man]

You would think with all of the medical advances, they would come up with something to soften the lens in our eyes so we could focus again. But it would put the eyeglass and contact people out of business. The more you wear glasses, the weaker the eyes get too. A steady money pool!

[Bad luck Bill]

I agree with that statment, the medical establishment is a big scam! They give you drugs for one thing and the drugs create another ailment! And Cancer! You'll never see a cure for Cancer! Why, you may ask? Because they make way too much money owith the charities and associations. Go to other countries and you might be surprised at the treatments and CURES they have for different diseases!

BLB.

P.S.,

Good shooting advice. Think the wife would mind if I went shooting on our anniversary? ****! She'd shoot me! And I want so badly to try out my new bullets!

BLB.

[Diegokid]

My family enjoys a lot of shooting sports, pistol, rifle, shotgun. After I started casting my own boolits I too encountered a leading problem. A friend of mine recommended trying Vita Vouri powders. I started using V V 320 and sure enough I have no more leading and the powder does really shoot cleaner. It costs a little more than most but when you shoot about 1000 to 1200 boolits a month the saved time and energy of cleaning is worth it. The money saved by casting more than makes the difference anyway.

[Bad luck Bill]

Hello,

I've been really interested about VhitaVuori powders, especially their equivalent to Bullseye...N320? I can't find it at any of my local gun shops though. I guess I'll have to ask them to order some for me or order it myself. I don't really encounter too much leading at lower velocites, neither too much at higher velocites, but I'd still like to try the VV powder. A lot of Bullseye shooter use it and swear by it! Doesn't it cost around $25 per pound? Bullseye is very dirty, especially if you're shooting a stainless steel or nickel plated revolver. I shoot anywhere between 1500-2000 bullets per month and that converts into a lot of cleaning.

BLB.

[felix]

BLB, of the VV powders I have tried are the cleanest burning out there for their burn speed, and also exhibit the least variation between lots. I have not used 320, but it is one to try using the match autos for sure. Measure lot-to-lot variation only by volume, not by weight. In other words, shoot the new lot with the same powder volume, and compare its accuracy with the old lot. Adjust by volume the difference in accuracy and point of impact (vertical only), and then move the sights to compensate for only the windage differences. This technique would be true for any powder lot-to-lot variation when you know the powder number has extremely close quality control. What you are compensating for is the change in water moisture content between the lots. ... felix

[Bad luck Bill]

Felix,

Even though I occasionally shoot a nice sub 2" group, I'm still not good enough to notice the slight variations in powder lots...at least I don't think I would be able to. By the way, I just switched to Winchester primers (I have been using CCI) and I didn't do so well at the range yesterday (except for some really good BP shooting!). What do you think about Winchester primers for small pistol shooting (.357)? Which would you consider to be better....CCI or Winchester? I've heard that changing primers can either tighten or loosen groups. I still have a long way to go until I'll be consistantly shooting sub 3" groups but all the advice and knowledge I can get my hands on should help me reach my goal. Hell! I'm not even consistantly shooting 5" groups! I always have a few flyers to ruin things. I need to slug my barrel and get some calipers.

Thanks,

BLB.

[felix]

Different primers are used to fine tune an existing load. Chances are, if a primer makes a BIG difference in accuracy, then probably you have a bad powder choice. Typically, use primers that slide into the case properly, not too tight, not too loose. I have found that CCI primers are made of the harder materials and I tend to use them for worn out cases. I find that Federal primers are the softest, but mid-sized. The Remingtons I have are the loosest fitting, but offer the most accuracy in my cowboy 45 colt loads using 6.0-700X, 185 grainers. So, in general, just use the primers you have on the bench and swap around for accuracy effects.
... felix

[Bad luck Bill]

Thanks for the advice Felix...will do. I still haven't tried any Federal primers nor have I used Magnum primers. I really don't shoot too many hot loads anyway. Is there a good use for magnum primers other than using them on hotter loads?

BLB.

[felix]

Treat magnum primers as just another primer. The only magnum primer that we can really term a magnum primer is the Winchester LR variety. They are extremely forceful, and will dislodge a boolit very easily compared to any of the others, magnum or not. Use these for large and long cases full of powder only, but only after the others don't work too good (suspected, anyway). ... felix

[drinks]

Out of necessity, I was out of large pistol primers, I bought what was available, CCI rather than the usual Winchester.
I use the Lee handheld primer, with Win., I can seat the primers with a moderate push, with the CCI, I had to use both thumbs to get them seated.
Now I understand how some people break the Lee primer, I would not expect mine to last a long time putting CCI primers in, though it has lasted about 25 years with Winchester primers.

[BAGTIC]

Swaging a lead bullet after heat treating it destroys the heat treatment. If you are going to lube, only, after heat treating be sure to adjust your dies so that they don't squeeze the bullet any.

[drinks]

I have tested heat treated and water dropped bullets both before and after sizing, some by the Cabine Tree tester and some by the Lee method where you file the side , the swaged side, flat to test.
There has never been more then 1 BHN difference, swaged or not.

[Bass Ackward]

I have tested heat treated and water dropped bullets both before and after sizing, some by the Cabine Tree tester and some by the Lee method where you file the side , the swaged side, flat to test.
There has never been more then 1 BHN difference, swaged or not.


Drinks,

Sure. How much time involved? Since the same batch can harden from one day to a month, they WILL soften at unpredictable rates too. Even for the same batch of bullets. The problem is to say with "consistency". So what do I say or how do you plan?

I mold for all year in the winter for bulk bullets. If I water drop, I can have 30 BHN bullets in March and 22 BHN by December if I don't freeze them. Sometimes I lose interest in a design that can sit around for awhile, so I no longer HT if and untill they are needed. But here is the problem.

I have some 280 LBT LFN at .4325 that were straight WDWW in 1991 that are untouched and still 20 BHN. I leach out of that batch from time to time and a few years ago I had to size some down to .429 for a Smith that I got a hold of. That .003 took them to 13 BHN even on the nose where they were tested. How long did it take? I can't tell you for sure, but it wasn't 6 months.

So maybe it depends on the age of the hardening process itself and in what stage or level the hardness decay is for the rate of the softening too. Who knows. Just be aware for safety concerns.

[georgeld]

Sure am glad I'm not all that particular. IF I HAD to hassle with all the small details discussed here. I'd been in the soft padded room a long time ago.

BLD: Once you get away from the target shooting and want to try the defense shooting game's. A good one an old retired sheriff told me about was get where it's safe to just shoot where your bullets can't get away. Like down in a pit someplace.

Put a box w/target of what ever on it. Hold the gun in your hand down at the side so you won't be trying to quick draw and shoot your own leg, or foot.

Back up to the target, step off some pre determined number of steps, whirl, point and shoot. Empty the gun, or take just 2-4 shots. Don't take the same number of steps each time.
Sometimes, drop to a knee, whirl the other direction etc. Put some imagination into it.

Tell you what, that's made a lot better pistol shooter out of me since starting that. So far Ive never gotten into the defensive shooting match games with the pro's. They use semi's and I don't like the things very well, nor do I own one now. They don't like wheel guns to play their game's for some reason.

Several were in a match of twenty five targets from ten feet out to 75 yds and I whipped their butts with the blackhawk .30 carbine. Two with scoped .44mags had trouble keeping them on a four foot sq target and claimed it was their guns problem. I shot the last five loads one had and put them in four inch's at 59yds handed it back to him saying: "Joe, it's not the guns problem". The other guy had wanted me to try his til I said that. He just looked hurt, put it away and left.

IF you want to make enemies, just outshoot someone with their own guns.

Mighty interesting dicussion you guys, thanks for it.

[Bad luck Bill]

Hahaha,

I love handing a gun to a guy and telling him "This is a good gun, not a thing wrong with it" and I've only been shooting for a short time. You get a lot of guys at the range thinking there new toys are broken. The problem rarely resides in the gun and almost always stems from the man shooting it! I own a Blackhawk also, very accurate wheelgun once you learn how to shoot them. I've been looking over the one in .30 carbine but can't really justify the purchase right now. I bet it would go clean through a vest...what do you think?

No reason to put a dot on a gun until you learn how to shoot it with iron sights, unless you're older and the eyes are going, at least in my opinion. The guys who become your enemy because of learning they need more practice probably need a lesson in character building too! I learn the most from the guys who out shoot me and hate to be the best shot at the range. If I'm the best shot going then I know there ain't nobody there worth a crap (including myself).

BLB.

[waksupi]

That reminds me of a lady friend. She was overall winner at a thousand yard match a few years ago. A couple guys were griping about a woman being in the competition, and winning. I told them it was very simple to see she never won again. All they had to do, was out-shoot her!

[James Sewell]

This is my proceedure for casting boolits and preping them. I heat tire weights metal plus 2% tin to 650 to 700 degrees per my thermometer and I cast boolits using a ladel pot and not a bottom pour pot. I heat my mold before casting. I always drop my bullets into water to quinch. I check the weight of each boolit aftewards and use only those in 2 to 3 grains of each other. I use a moly lube plus I spray my boolits with a moly to coat them. I also use puf-lon as a filler when loading the cases and a poly wad under my boolit. I also use a formula based on bullet length and size to get the desired speed to stablize the bullet. The boolits are seated in the case by hand. This method has proven to work vary well in my 38-55 highwall.

[Bret4207]

A few other considerations in loading and HTWW- As BA said, the diameter varies with heat treating. That being case, and I've seen it myself, some of the guys finding HTWW shoots better in their gun may not be because it's harder, but because the booilt is bigger and they're getting better rifling grip and ignition. Something to think about. Also, crimp on a booilt will do the same thing as a sizer depending on the particular load. Some folks are loading cast and using the Lee Collet Die to "size" the boolit as it sits in the neck.

BTW- Are the boolits you're getting lead with in the BH with the 11.0gr Unique load PB or Gas Checked? The check is a great cheater.

On the powder choice- Bullseye was and is a great choice, but you can play with a couple other things to fine tune. Just because a wadcutter, SWC or RN has a crimping groove doesn't mean you HAVE to crimp at that length. When you get a load that shoots good, play with the seating depth a bit. You may find a lttle shorter or longer makes a big difference, rifle or peestol.

Bullseye is not position sensitive, burns clean without a heavy crimp and gave a nice "boot" to the hollow based wadcutter to help expand the skirt a bit to fill oversize throat and barrels. That was one reason for choosing a fast powder back before we realized not all guns were held to perfect specs. You can vary the velocity/boot be seating a bit deeper or longer and fine tune as I said earlier.

I like the close in target idea. My eyes are going and any small target past 75-80 feet blurs out quickly with open sights. I'll try it.

RN VS SWC vs WC- Only you, your gun and the load can make that decision. I have found RN to shoot really well in some guns that didn't like WC's at all. In fact I bought the 311359 to try in my 32WCF just to see if it would tighten things up. Haven't had the chance to try it, but some of the older books mention the RN working near miracles with some guns.