Leading with mag loads

[astrodan]

I'm very new to casting bullets. Wheel weight lead was obviously not going to work for 357 magnum loads. After thoroughly cleaning out the film of lead from the barrel... I shot a wheel of 158gr 100% Linotype bullets water quenshed. Results were about the same. I'm using a Lee mold, (the multiribbed type) and lubbing properly. Bullets I was buying from S&S Casting never left a trace of lead. Suggestions please.

[Casting Timmy]

Both metals sound like they could work to me. Sizing would be the first thing I would try....see if you can shoot them as-is or don't size down as much if possible. Other than that I would look at what the differences are between the S&S Castings are your own. Different powders? Different lubes? Different gun? etc.

Keep with it and you'll figure it out. It's just of the learning process that never ends.

[fryboy]

what are ur boolits sized to? the same as the ones u bought ? my experience is more limited to some but mag velocities are best with j words

[Gunslinger]

First off, shooting pure lino is a waste, and water quenching pure lino is about the craziest thing I've ever heard :smile:. Sorry, but it really is overkill.

We need a little more info before we can really help you. Have you slugged your barrel? Your boolit must be .001" larger than your bore - bullet fit is the name of the game. A hard undersize boolit will lead your barrel just as a soft undersize boolit will!

I don't really agree with Fryboy. I can't remember when I last shot a jacketed bullet through any of my guns. In my Freedom Arms I shot a 180gr LBT FNGC boolit at 1540fps... have yet to see leading down that barrel. And accuracy is phenomenal.

When exceeding velocities of 1200fps you need a boolit with gas check.

WWs work just fine, but for magnum loads they best be water quenched. Although I've shot hundreds of 158gr boolits at 1400fps with a BNH10 boolit, but again... I used a gas check.

[cbrick]

Welcome to Castboolits astrodan,

First, I shoot 190 gr WW boolits at over 1600 fps out of my FA 357 with zero leading so wheel weights are not your problem but we have no idea what your load is so . . .

Did you slug your throats? All of them? Did you slug your bore? If so did you use a good micrometer to measure the slugs and NOT a caliper?

I'm no fan of Lee's micro groove boolits or tumble lube for that matter but regardless, this could well be part of the problem.

And the most likely cause of your problem . . . Your S&S boolits didn't lead, did you measure their diameter? It's very possible that they fit your throats and bore better than your micro groove boolits, This is probably your biggest problem, fit is far more important than alloy and water quenching lino will probably make matters worse.

Rick

[462]

Much more information is needed.

Have you slugged the barrel and cylinder throats? If so, what are the dimensions?

What size are the boolits?

What powder and how much?

What lube...Lee's Liquid Alox?

Water quenched linotype is much too hard. I can drive a non-checked .357 Mag. boolit over 1300 fps without leading. Boolits are air cooled wheel weights, sized .001" over barrel and throat dimensions, and lubed with Jake's lube.

[docone31]

Several issues.
I have never liked alox lubed castings. I pan lube and have great luck. Second, how is the case sizeing when you load?
If you are crimping, you are making a sizeing die in the cartridge. Close down the neck, but, do not crimp.
Something is up in that combination. People have had good luck with Alox, so that might not be the issue.
It sounds like sizeing.

[fryboy]

thaz why i'm here, cuz we dont have to agree ;) well and to learn if i can get some stuff thru my thick skull lolz ,sadly my best accuracy at mag velocities has always been the umm jwords not with plain based boolits ( such as he's using ...) i've seen plain based boolits go faster with little to no leading but never got the accuracy i wanted , even in rifles ( and my beloved tc's ) i've heard of folks getting plain lead non lubed boolits shot with great accuracy and no leading and i believe it can be done but i wouldnt try it but for non leading magnum velocity plain based bullets i know of nothing that will work other than jwords.....357 mag 158-ish at 1550-1600 fps ??? ummm plain based boolits ?
astrodan amigo i owe u an apology , i didnt note that u were new ,the gas check threshold will vary with load, alloy and lube but it's usually between 11-15 fps,air cooled wheel weights properly sized should show no problems of leading below that ,quenching or heat treating them will raise the threshold a lil bit ,the gas check of course raises that quite a bit ( as would a bullet/jword) but as is often stated size is king ....the only thing more variable than alloys that will work with a gas check is the sheer amount of lubes possible that will suffice ,with ur mold ( and properly sized ) midrange loads are best and i agree lino isnt needed for that ( it does however reduce down mitey fine ) u also didnt provide enough info ( as the guys stated ) i have the same mold ( i believe ? TL358-158-SWC ) for 38 special it's awesum ! ditto for 357 loaded as a wadcutter IMO it's not a mag boolit on a odd note even properly sized ( i believe in part it's the twist and the forcing cone) it and it's brother the 158 RN will lead in my revolver before they do in my tc barrel which spits them out even faster with equal loading
u didnt state what u used for a lube ,most of us will assume alox ( LLA),sometimes ww's will quench harder than lino will ( depends if the lino has arsenic ) powder pressure curve will also play a part but sizing is ( as they say ) king ,and decone hit on another sizing aspect , is the crimp sizing them down even further (in effect guaranteeing leading ? )

[fredj338]

It seems many have issues w/ leading & the TL designs. I don't shoot that design, but IMO, it seems there is too little lube to run @ high pressures, regardless of alloy. It seems a design to be run @ low pressure/vel levels. I certainly could be wrong, but that is just how I perceive it. I don;t have leading issues w/ large single lube grooves & ww to 1300fps in 357mag.

[Gunslinger]

Fred, I think you are right on the tumle lube boolits not being good for magnum velocities. I have a 158gr mold with tumble lube grooves. I've shot boolits made from Lyman #2 with 10gr bludot behind (don't know the velocity) and I got a little leading. From the same alloy, I can shoot a 142gr SWC with 10.5gr bludot and no leading. At the time i figured 3 small lube grooves would amount to the same as one traditional lube groove... now I'm not so sure anymore!

[HeavyMetal]

Astrodan:

First welcome to the wonderfull world of cast boolits.

A lot of good advise here as well as some that will be a bit contradictory.

Here's what I think your issue is:

Store bought lead boolits did not lead for you but the ones you made yourself, using a Lee tumble lube mold, did.

Your first thought was the alloy was to soft so you found some linotype and cast another batch only to find boolit hardness was not the issue.

If you look carefully at any left over store boughts you may have left you will note that they do not use the same type lube as your using.

I will not hazard a guess as to what it is because it could be anything. Experience tells me it will be a hard lube in a standard single lube groove design boolit but that is only an educated guess nothing more.

Things you need to do to shoot "full House" 357 load successfully:

Figure out what the cylinder throats measure. You want boolits .0005 to .001 over that diamension, as a general rule. If you have any left over measure them and use that number as a guide to your casting attempts.

Dump the tumble lube mold and the Lee liquid alox. Both of these fail at velocities exceeding about 800 FPS. Some will disagree with me but if you use the search function on this site you will find that most complaints of leading are almost universally connected to some type of liquid alox coating.

Liquid alox is a nice place to start when you first get into casting but you will out grow it quickly. As for the tumble lube mold itself? Nice if your under the magic 1000 FPS break that and I think the little Bands and Grooves simply fail to stand up to the velocity.

Again re visit your store boughts and compare boolit designs to see the difference.

I prefer single lube groove molds that hold a decent amount of lube in them. If I was going to buy a Lee 357 mold today I think I would lean toward the 125 or 158 grain round flat "cowboy" boolits.

I would then "Pan Lube" untill I got the kinks worked out of my load then purchase a good used lube sizer.

Lots of good lubes on the market but if your going to make this a major effort load stay away from the alox blends!

Speed Green is a good soft lube and can be had through the Bullshop ( see bottom of this page) and Lar's Carnuba Red is also a good choice but much harder in consistancy.

Your problem isn't alloy it's poor boolit design, for the velocity you want and poor lube choice again for the velocity you want! and, quite possibley, poor boolit "fit" in the cylinder throats.

Any or all of these things can cause leading. Your job is to figure out which and change it!

[wistlepig1]

I have been testing some 357 mag loads in my S&W model 27, 8 3/8" that my backup what has been posted many times. Bullit is Lee 158 swc GC, sized for MY gun .359, 1.5 over bore. With 7.6 grs of a powder they Chrono'd at 1320 fps without leading, WW water droped. Same every thing but no GC, minor leading. Both were not very accurate from the bench at 25 yds. I have loaded down to 7.0 grs and if it ever stops raining I will test them, Yes I have started on the boat.:kidding:
As stated, slug your gun, size to match and shoot, you can worry about alloy hardness if you still have a problem.
Last thought, you have bullits made (hopefully not sized if you havn't slugged) put in oven at 425 for one hour and dump in water, now their hard, if that makes you fell better about real hard bullits. IMHO and I am a novice still

[fredj338]

Fred, I think you are right on the tumle lube boolits not being good for magnum velocities. I have a 158gr mold with tumble lube grooves. I've shot boolits made from Lyman #2 with 10gr bludot behind (don't know the velocity) and I got a little leading. From the same alloy, I can shoot a 142gr SWC with 10.5gr bludot and no leading. At the time i figured 3 small lube grooves would amount to the same as one traditional lube groove... now I'm not so sure anymore!
Well, my thoughts too. The tiny/shallow TL grooves just don't hold enough lube to provide the hydraulic peformance probabley req'd @ higher pressures of magnum loads. My single or dbl, deeper lube grooves seem to work at magnum pressures, as I get very little if any leading w/ AC ww bullets.