AR15s......... Pros and Cons

[Down South]

I will buy an AR15 sometime in the near future but for now, I start my research.

I’m looking for a quality AR. I plan to buy new and I don’t want to piece the AR together. I don’t have to have the top of the line, but I don’t want a *** (something that jams on a regular basis, looks like **** or other known problem)
I’ve heard a bit about Colt, RRA and a few others.
Are any of you guys and gals AR fans? What do you like and (TRUST)? And why?

[NuJudge]

I shoot High Power matches with them, so I'm looking for something special in performance. For me, the best option was to buy a complete barreled upper receiver from a specialized builder (White Oak for the most recent), and then acquire a lower from one of the mass market builders (Bushmaster for the most recent) and build it up myself.

I have lower components from Jewell (adjustable match trigger), Armalite (match trigger), Bushmaster & Colt (furniture). They are all excellent.

Colt & Armalite have the high end, then probably Rock River and Bushmaster, then the others are below in terms of perceived quality. I have nothing but good to say about the parts from the first 4.

If you are trying for the best accuracy, you don't want a Chrome lined barrel. Chrome lined will probably last longer, but the accuracy will be generally less than a good unlined chrome-moly or stainless barrel. If all you're going to do is plink, get a Chrome lined barrel. Factory triggers can be ok, but can be spongy. You can still buy a rifle with an -A1 type upper receiver, but the sights are very difficult to adjust. The sights on an -A2 type receiver are easy to adjust. Flat top upper receivers allow the installation of all sorts of electronic and other reflex sights, which are much quicker for most persons.

Figure out what you're going to do with this, then let your wallet be your guide.

[GeneT]

I have 3 AR's and various uppers for various reasons. I think Bushmaster is the best bang for the buck, generally. I use a Bushmaster with a Jewel trigger for 3-gun matches, it's been a solid gun and plenty accurate for that shooting. I have a Colt which is no better, but cost a lot more, and I have an receiver I made myself which, if I considered my time was probably the most expensive - and it isn't any better either.

GsT

[rob454]

Im new on here but I have a AR. its a good gun. i built it myself for 750$. IMO if you want to keep the cost down put it together yourself. i saved myself about (estimate) 5-600$ by building it myself than to buy it already built.

[garandsrus]

RRA sells a whole bunch of rifle to High Power shooters. If you are looking for accuracy, get one of their National Match models. They are competitive out of the box.

John

[Marine Sgt 2111]

I have a RRA Nat'l Match that I used to train my son on before he went to boot camp. With Federal 55gr FMC, she shoots into 1" @100 yds w/ iron sights. It has a great trigger and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the Nat'l Match Course (with 69gr or 77 grain HPBT's) with her.

[DHORNE]

I personally have a Bushmaster with an Aimpoint, and have been very pleased with it. I carry the new Smith & Wesson version at work and have also been very pleased with it as well. A friend just recently bought a Delton at the local gun show. Before the show I have never heard of them but after doing some looking I found that they are all over the place. The weapon seems to shoot as good as my Bushmaster, the price at the show was $550.00. The down side is that the weapon has a flat rail on top and does not come with sights, this will be an added expense.

[NickSS]

I have owned six colt ARs including the original AR 15 (3), A2 Government (1) and A2 HBAR (2). I also currently own 3 and Olympic Arms Plinker plus carbine (16" HB on and A1 Upper and standard A2 Lower), a DPMS Light Weight carbine with an A3 Upper, and a Bushmaster 20 inch A3 rifle. The Carbines I bought for plinking and general use and the rifle I got for informal target shooting and an occasional HP match. All of them are very reliable and very accurate with my ammo. The Olympic Arms carbine is the lowest price rifle they sell and I got it for a camp gun and plinker. I have shoot it with iron sights from a bench using 69 gr matchking bullets and printed groups of under 1 MOA. I did even better with a scope on it. The Bushmaster rifle Shoots about the same and is easier due to the longer sight radius. I bought the DPMS carbine recently due to my desire for a lighter carbine that gave me a lower scope mount capability. It fulfills that role perfecty but I have not tried anything in it but M193 ball ammo and it shoots that stuf about as good as any of my other ARs do. I am perfectly happy with my rifles. One of these days I do want a new upper with a free float handguard and a 1 in 8 twist barrel so I can shoot heavier VLD bullets for longer ranges using a tight sling.

[frank505]

bought a CMMG piston carbine, 4000 rounds later it is a favorite for wife and myself. had to put a loopold 1x4 ar series scope on it as i cannot see the front in focus. yes i tried still can see the m1a front sight well enough to shoot eggspurt scores. handy little rifle, shoot heavy bullets like 68's on up to 75's. works so much better than the light ones on critters and targets.
kind of a test, shot the piston gun a little over a thousand rounds with no cleaning. took several months last winter to do, gun functioned just fine even with lots of wyoming inside of it.

[GabbyM]

You will want to decide between NATO, Wylde or SAMI chamber.

[Down South]

You will want to decide between NATO, Wylde or SAMI chamber.

.223 is my choice if that is what you mean? Ammo is easier to get.

I've found a buddy of mine that builds AR's. He is recommending Colt and a couple other high end brands. He says he will build one for me if I want him to.

[Slogg76]

I have had the chance to shoot AR-15's from Stag Arms, Bushmaster, S&W, RRA, and a number of custom builds lately. I personally own a Stag Arms 16" carbine. I ordered a stripped Stag lower, put the lower parts together myself, and ordered a complete upper from Stag Arms. I saved perhaps $100 this way, but I think you can get a pretty basic Stag carbine complete for well under a grand (I have about $750 in mine). My Stag carbine has a 5.56 NATO chamber with chrome lined chamber and barrel, flat-top receiver, and standard hand guards. After 1,000+ rounds it has been 100% reliable, and will print 5-shot, sub-MOA groups at 100 yards all day long if I do my part. It has shot some 1/4" groups with 55 grain V-max bullets over Benchmark powder. It's accuracy blows me away. I was not expecting it to be as accurate as it is. A second Stag carbine I shot would print groups nearly as good with quality ammo. I have shot many AR-15's that cost more than my Stag, but none shot better. I don't know what your accuracy requirements are, but about every quality AR-15 I handled shot very well with good ammo. Also a 5.56 NATO chamber will handle commercial .223 ammo just fine. Could run into trouble putting 5.56 NATO through a .223 chambered gun though. All in all I would not hesitate to buy any good quality AR-15 from a reputable company.

[StarMetal]

.223 is my choice if that is what you mean? Ammo is easier to get.

I've found a buddy of mine that builds AR's. He is recommending Colt and a couple other high end brands. He says he will build one for me if I want him to.


No, that is not what he meant. The chamber that has the larger specification (especially in the throat) in the 5.56 NATO. Next down the line the is the standard 223 chamber. The Wylde is inbetween and a little bit of match chamber thrown in.

For utter reliability (if that is your quest) the NATO chamber is the one to go with. No explanation for the standard 223 chamber. The Wylde will let you have accurate and still run in an AR15.

Running a pure match chamber might give you functioning problems.

No matter which chamber you can only load the bullets out as far as the magazine will allow, unless you want to single load.

[Lloyd Smale]

in the mid priced gun range i own a bushmaster a dpms and a stag. Out of those there if push came to shove id probably keep my stag, but there all so close it would be a hard call. Bottom line though if only one ar could stay in the house it would be my colt.

[Down South]

Thanks for the info. I'm in a learning curve here.

[imashooter2]

I own a Colt and a DPMS. If I were buying today, I'd go with Stag.

[StarMetal]

in the mid priced gun range i own a bushmaster a dpms and a stag. Out of those there if push came to shove id probably keep my stag, but there all so close it would be a hard call. Bottom line though if only one ar could stay in the house it would be my colt.

Colt....which is more then likely made by CMT which Stag is their outlet.

[StarMetal]

Let's clear something about DPMS. DPMS doesn't make anything. At least they didn't use to. They have parts made for them and I believe they have a standard they abide by because most their stuff is pretty decent. They assemble rifles. Take Stag on the other hand, which is the commercial outlet of CMT, makes most the components of their rifles.

[Down South]

Ok, after discussing this topic over and over with some AR nut buddies of mine, I made the decision to buy a Colt 6920. I almost decided on the 6940 but I was talked out of it. I gave Stag and a few others consideration too. I know that I could have saved a few bucks by going with a different brand or building one myself. And I’m sure I’ll make changes, possibly buy another upper and add on’s.

Me with a black gun, now that’s something new. See what this administration made me go and do.

[imashooter2]

While I would have gone with the Stag, I certainly can't fault the 6920 choice. They are fine rifles. I'm sure you'll be happy.

[akajun]

Down South, Ill be in Jonesville on Friday at El Nopal for a meeting. I can show you one of my built AR's. I have over 15 in different variations. They are all quality.

BTW I shoot Highpower, right now with a "built gun". Its a White Oak Armament upper with a Krieger barrell on a Essential Arms Lower with a RRA 2stage trigger. This gun has a Wylde chamber for accuracy reasons with 80gr bullets. I would not use a wylde chamber for any general purpose gun, they are tight. Nato chambers for my general purpose guns.

Not knocking colt, but they are overpriced for what they are. You can get the same gun in RRA, Bushmaster, Even DPMS and Olympic for much less without sacrificing quality. DOnt let the colt snobs fool you. If fact when it comes to service after the sale, I have found colt lacking. BTW my first highpower gun was a Colt Hbar which I made Expert with and even managed to squeek out a few master scores.

If you start building with parts kits, Del Ton and Model 1 are who I have used. I have not had one problem out of them. Also dont overlook the colt kits from Century arms and other importers that you can Build on a kit.

[StarMetal]

Down South, Ill be in Jonesville on Friday at El Nopal for a meeting. I can show you one of my built AR's. I have over 15 in different variations. They are all quality.

BTW I shoot Highpower, right now with a "built gun". Its a White Oak Armament upper with a Krieger barrell on a Essential Arms Lower with a RRA 2stage trigger. This gun has a Wylde chamber for accuracy reasons with 80gr bullets. I would not use a wylde chamber for any general purpose gun, they are tight. Nato chambers for my general purpose guns.

Not knocking colt, but they are overpriced for what they are. You can get the same gun in RRA, Bushmaster, Even DPMS and Olympic for much less without sacrificing quality. DOnt let the colt snobs fool you. If fact when it comes to service after the sale, I have found colt lacking. BTW my first highpower gun was a Colt Hbar which I made Expert with and even managed to squeek out a few master scores.

If you start building with parts kits, Del Ton and Model 1 are who I have used. I have not had one problem out of them. Also dont overlook the colt kits from Century arms and other importers that you can Build on a kit.


You have one fine match AR and a great barrel, and Colts are high priced. That's where I stop agreeing with you. First off Olympia Arms is one of the worse on the bottom of the totem pole AR builders. Model 1 sales is another low quality AR. You should hear what the industry says about them and JT. DPMS is only an assembler, they make nothing in house. RRA is one of the new boys on the block that has a good advertising group, not that it's a bad rifle, which it's not. The longest standing manufacturers are CMT (STAG), Colt, Arma-Lite, and Bushmaster. I'm not talking about the custom builders out there like LW, Les Baer, and some others.

Our own Bullshop not long ago acquires an Olympia Arms AR 15 and the bolt was installed 180 degrees out because the bolt cam pin could be installed in the bolt from either end of the hole due to their wonderful terrible manufacturing processes.

[mike in co]

.223 is my choice if that is what you mean? Ammo is easier to get.

I've found a buddy of mine that builds AR's. He is recommending Colt and a couple other high end brands. He says he will build one for me if I want him to.

ok lets get this part started correctly.

generally 5.56 is found in mil style ar's

generally 223 is found in target/varmit style

the 5.56 chamber is more "forgiving " of the two.
(minor potential pressure issue with 556 in a 223 chamber.....does anyone have proof of a failure ?)

better mil rifles have chromed lined bores...ease of maintainence.

cheap mil is not chrome lined

as was pointed out, chrome linning does not lend it self to target accuracy.

bulk or mil surplus style ammo is not target ammo.

stick with armalite, rockriver, stag, bushmaster....not colt.

there is no such thing as "mil match" in the ar family...yes in 03, m14, garand....no such spec for the m16/ar15.....all hype.


there are dcm/cmp legal built match rifles.

mike in co

[mike in co]

buy a stag/rockriver/bushmaster/armalite over the colt and spend what you save on some ammo.
armalite's new ad for thier free float quad upper chrome lined says 2-3inches at 100 yds.

so you guys tell me more about your 1/4moa battle rifles......was that one or 2 shots ??

anything near 1 moa is fine in an ar15 with a 556 chamber and chrome lined bore.

its a battle rifle not a target rifle.

mike in co

[NickSS]

AS I said in my last post I have an Olympic carbine and it shoots extremely well. I have shot FMJ reloads into one inch 10 shot groups with a 16 inch carbine with iron sights. The only special thing I did was weigh all the bullets and used the ones in the middle of the batch that weighed within .1 gr of each other. This cut almost one inch out of the groups fired with bulk un-weighed bullets. As for quality I have owned five or six colt ARs of different models, several Bushmasters. a couple of DPMS and two Olympic arms rifles. My first Olympic arms rifle was poor to say the least but in recent years they have gotten their act together and make as good a rifle now as any other I have seen. As far as I can tell as long as the rifle is built to mil specs they all are about the same. Like in any other rifle there are minor differences and if you get into competion with it you want the best barrel and trigger money can buy. As to the rest of it one is good as another for most applications. Truthfully I have not had a malfunction with any AR in so long that I forget when I ever had one. If kept clean and maintained they will shoot all day every day until warn out. I get a real kick out of M1 Garand collectors who pay really big bucks for a winchester M1. I have owned a couple dozen M1s in my life and the Winchester ones were always the worst finished and fitting of them all. That is just like a Colt AR. They are no better fit or finished than most of the rest of them on the block but they Charge more money because it's a "Colt". Big deal I would rather save money on the rifle and buy more ammo with it. I put my DPMS light weight carbine together from parts and it cost me ready to shoot $655.00. Think of all the ammo I can buy for $400 or $500 I did not spend on the rifle. And the rifle shoots right at 3/4 inch for 10 shots off a bench rest when firing Sierra 69 gr matchkings pushed by 24 gr of H335 in Lake City GI brass using a 6X scope for a sight.

[nicholst55]

Here's some info on the differences between the various .223 and 5.56mm chambers that are available:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf

[Down South]

Down South, Ill be in Jonesville on Friday at El Nopal for a meeting. I can show you one of my built AR's. I have over 15 in different variations. They are all quality.

BTW I shoot Highpower, right now with a "built gun". Its a White Oak Armament upper with a Krieger barrell on a Essential Arms Lower with a RRA 2stage trigger. This gun has a Wylde chamber for accuracy reasons with 80gr bullets. I would not use a wylde chamber for any general purpose gun, they are tight. Nato chambers for my general purpose guns.

Not knocking colt, but they are overpriced for what they are. You can get the same gun in RRA, Bushmaster, Even DPMS and Olympic for much less without sacrificing quality. DOnt let the colt snobs fool you. If fact when it comes to service after the sale, I have found colt lacking. BTW my first highpower gun was a Colt Hbar which I made Expert with and even managed to squeek out a few master scores.

If you start building with parts kits, Del Ton and Model 1 are who I have used. I have not had one problem out of them. Also dont overlook the colt kits from Century arms and other importers that you can Build on a kit.
I appreciate the offer and would gladly take you up on it but I will be out of town Friday. I will be Leaving for Houston tomorrow and will be gone through the weekend.

[Down South]

Here's some info on the differences between the various .223 and 5.56mm chambers that are available:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf

Thanks for the info. It gives a good reference to the different chamber dimensions.

[akajun]

You have one fine match AR and a great barrel, and Colts are high priced. That's where I stop agreeing with you. First off Olympia Arms is one of the worse on the bottom of the totem pole AR builders. Model 1 sales is another low quality AR. You should hear what the industry says about them and JT. DPMS is only an assembler, they make nothing in house. RRA is one of the new boys on the block that has a good advertising group, not that it's a bad rifle, which it's not. The longest standing manufacturers are CMT (STAG), Colt, Arma-Lite, and Bushmaster. I'm not talking about the custom builders out there like LW, Les Baer, and some others.

Our own Bullshop not long ago acquires an Olympia Arms AR 15 and the bolt was installed 180 degrees out because the bolt cam pin could be installed in the bolt from either end of the hole due to their wonderful terrible manufacturing processes.

Well I personally own 3 model1 sales rifle and have had zero problems, even one in the problematic 7.62x39 that runs 100%. The only Olympic I have ever handled that did not run right was one that the gas key was not staked on properly and the screw backed out. A call to Olympic and they sent the owner a new carrier and did not ask for the old one which we were able to fix ourselves. My DPMS guns, especially my 308's are some of the most accurate and reliable guns I own for stock production guns. My 308's will outshoot my Fulton Armory match M1a.

As far as Stag, I personally know of one guy who has sent his Stag upper back twice for the same problem, not enough gas to cycle the action. It was a complete gun but they only wanted the upper back. They made it right eventually, the gas hole was either out of line or too small, and they gave him some accessories to make up for it, but he was without rifle for 4 weeks.

All manufacturers will have problems, Its how they deal with the problems that makes the difference.
BTW DPMS is not an assembler, they manufacture their own stuff. Thats why Remington bought them and thats who makes Remington's line of Ar's and 308 ar's.

[Lloyd Smale]

I hear the oly and dpms bashing all the time. I did own two differnt oly back years ago and they were basicaly junk. Ive also shot some of there newer guns and they were much better guns. I own two dpms guns both sportitcals (there cheapest guns) ones an ar15 and ones an ar10. both are great guns. both shoot moa or less with loads they like and both have been extreamly reliable. Im not one that considers going out with a 100 rounds a day of shooting either. Both of these guns have many thousand rounds throught them. The little 223 has more rounds through it then probably all my other ars combined. I bought it because it was cheap and i figured id use it for a blaster. Well i kind of fell in love with it. It is at least a lb lighter then any of my other ars and just doesnt miss a beat and will shoot right along side my colt bushmaster and stag guns. I also dont see the big deal about them not manufacturing there own guns. Colt doesnt either and there consider one of the best. For the most part ar parts are ar parts and the only real thing that seperates one from another is the quality of the bolt group and maybe the quality of the barrel. A lower is a lower and so is a lower parts kit. Sure a rock river usually comes with a better trigger but a few swipes with a file can make any of they just as good.
I like my colt. It no doubt has a better bolt group then my dpms but for 700 bucks compared to 1200 bucks for the colt I could buy a couple good bolt groups. I get a charge out of guys that think because there gun says stag or bushmaster that its a cadilac when if fact its just a ford.
You have one fine match AR and a great barrel, and Colts are high priced. That's where I stop agreeing with you. First off Olympia Arms is one of the worse on the bottom of the totem pole AR builders. Model 1 sales is another low quality AR. You should hear what the industry says about them and JT. DPMS is only an assembler, they make nothing in house. RRA is one of the new boys on the block that has a good advertising group, not that it's a bad rifle, which it's not. The longest standing manufacturers are CMT (STAG), Colt, Arma-Lite, and Bushmaster. I'm not talking about the custom builders out there like LW, Les Baer, and some others.

Our own Bullshop not long ago acquires an Olympia Arms AR 15 and the bolt was installed 180 degrees out because the bolt cam pin could be installed in the bolt from either end of the hole due to their wonderful terrible manufacturing processes.

[StarMetal]

I hear the oly and dpms bashing all the time. I did own two differnt oly back years ago and they were basicaly junk. Ive also shot some of there newer guns and they were much better guns. I own two dpms guns both sportitcals (there cheapest guns) ones an ar15 and ones an ar10. both are great guns. both shoot moa or less with loads they like and both have been extreamly reliable. Im not one that considers going out with a 100 rounds a day of shooting either. Both of these guns have many thousand rounds throught them. The little 223 has more rounds through it then probably all my other ars combined. I bought it because it was cheap and i figured id use it for a blaster. Well i kind of fell in love with it. It is at least a lb lighter then any of my other ars and just doesnt miss a beat and will shoot right along side my colt bushmaster and stag guns. I also dont see the big deal about them not manufacturing there own guns. Colt doesnt either and there consider one of the best. For the most part ar parts are ar parts and the only real thing that seperates one from another is the quality of the bolt group and maybe the quality of the barrel. A lower is a lower and so is a lower parts kit. Sure a rock river usually comes with a better trigger but a few swipes with a file can make any of they just as good.
I like my colt. It no doubt has a better bolt group then my dpms but for 700 bucks compared to 1200 bucks for the colt I could buy a couple good bolt groups. I get a charge out of guys that think because there gun says stag or bushmaster that its a cadilac when if fact its just a ford.

I'm talking about manufacturers a number of parts for their rifles. Today very few companies make every single part for their rifles. An example are screws. Most the time those are farmed out parts. In respect with that Colt did make a lot of parts for their rifles. A high percentage of AR15 companies farm out every single part. DPMS is one. Now I won't bash DPMS because I feel they have set a standard for parts that they will accept and for those they will reject. DPMS isn't too bad of a rifle. Recently one of the top brands had a barrel problem. I won't mention who. They went to Lothar Walther to find out what that problems was and it was resolved. When I was told it was pretty pathetic this major company messed up so bad.

I hear some say well I had trouble with a Stag. Let me ask you this. Name one product in the world someone hasn't had a problem with. Look at the car manufacturers....have they made everyone of their cars perfect? No.

I'm just saying which companies put a little bit more effort in their product.

One can buy the surplus junk parts for an AR that one of the large parts vendors sales (not Numrich) like Sarco. Some of the parts are really government surplus junk. Yet a working rifle can be assembled from them.

Look at Remington and S&W. They don't make their AR15's. Stag makes S&W's and DPMS and Bushmaster put them together for Remington. Do notice that S&W, who like to feel they make a premier product, did got to Stag ( which CMT is one of the oldest manufacturers of AR parts) for their rifle. The two new 22 rim fire dedicated AR15's being sold by S&W and Colt aren't even made by either.

The lower line manufacturers have a higher ratio of bad guns, not saying everyone of them are junk.

[Moonie]

My 19 year old son and I recently put together an AR, DPMS lower with an upper kit from www.m-aparts.com, total cost was about $640. Haven't shot it much but it fits the bill for what we wanted, just a plinker. I am working on building a 6.8 SPC upper with top shelf parts however. Do be careful the AR platform can be addicting.

[StarMetal]

My 19 year old son and I recently put together an AR, DPMS lower with an upper kit from www.m-aparts.com (http://www.m-aparts.com), total cost was about $640. Haven't shot it much but it fits the bill for what we wanted, just a plinker. I am working on building a 6.8 SPC upper with top shelf parts however. Do be careful the AR platform can be addicting.

You're right on all accounts especially them becoming addicting.

[timbuck]

I've been watching this thread also thinking of an AR type. Nobody has mentioned the one I am looking at, Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf. Anybody have anything good or bad to say about them?

[StarMetal]

I've been watching this thread also thinking of an AR type. Nobody has mentioned the one I am looking at, Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf. Anybody have anything good or bad to say about them?

It's a pretty good round. The parts that AA uses are pretty decent too. It's a real thumper of a cartridge too. Little hard to get components for, but I think you'll really like it.

[Lloyd Smale]

just got back in the door from shooting my beo again. Mostly just trying to weed out which of my magazines work and which dont. ended up putting about a 150 rounds through it in a t shirt and have a little bit of red on my shoulder ;) It sure is fun though. It smacks rocks like the hammer of thor! Shot a couple 100 yard groups with the 335 reineer hps. They consistantly go 2 inch at a 100 which aint bad for me using an aimpoint. Couple buddys stopped by and really got a charge out of me dumping a couple clips into a big rock as fast as i could. Had my ar10 along too and it was like shooting a pop gun after the beo. I dont know how many rounds are through my beo but its a bunch and i cant remember it ever missing a beat other then a couple of my mags dont like feeding the last round.

[mac1911]

I posted this on the fly and needed to clear it up a bit .For decent range plinking,I Went with a model 2 from STAG...hands down the best customer support BEFORE I even owned one. Answred all my phone calls and emails even called mr back to discuss the difference between .223 rem chamber and 5.56....I have since built a few uppers and lowers. Useing S&W RRA STAG in many configurations. My STAG factory gun has shot 4k rounds of wolf milclasic with out a hitch. I am no match shooter but hit about 3" groups or so @ 100yards.

Peter from AR15sales.com is the best for STAG and RRA guns and parts most items ship for free and lower than SRP. I saved about 125.00 on a complete STAG upper (kit,LH safety and some extra parts) compared to others and stag(on my order)

[mike in co]

I saved about 125.00 on a complete STASG upper compared to others and stag.

ok what upper did you get that you saved 125 off stag msrp ???

cause i'm gonna start carrying those....none of the ones i carry have a $100 markup


and yes i am a stag dealer....

( having said that if you are buying from a distributor /dealer...he may get there)

[Larry Gibson]

I've dealt with lots of ARs over the years since '65. I've owned numerous Colts over the years and never had a thing wrong with any of them. I've fixed a couple others with small parts breakage due to hard use and abuse but that is expected with any rifle, AR or other.

Currently my Colt Hbar Competition has not stuttered once and shoots sub moa all day long with the Redfield Palma sight on it of with a scope using quality ammo. Yes the Colts cost a little more but I've not had any problems with them. I also have a DPMS AR and a parts gun with an original M16 upper and milsurp 12" twist chrome lined bore. The DPMS is very accurate; It wears a Leupold 3x9 and shoots 1 1/2 - 2 moa with M855 and close to 1 moa with match loads. The parts AR with it's 12" twist chrome lined mil spec barrel using the EOTech on it will put 20 rounds of LC M193 into 3 1/2" at 200 yards any time I ask it to. With Speer 52 gr HPs over 26.5 H335 it shoot into right at MOA. Back when I could focus on an ARs front sight I've also shot that load in a lot of Colt ARs and others that would shoot 1 - 1 1/2 moa out to 300 yards (deadly on varmints, particularly coyotes).

I've also dealt with a myrid of other ARs. Being just a few miles north of Olympic Arms and close to Fort Lewis I have also a bit of experience with their ARs and will use them as an example here. Almost all of them that are factory built are good, accurate and serviceable rifles. The problems comes when you buy a used one someone (a lot of unit "armorers" get credit around here) built from a parts kits. The AR is relatively easy to put together but it must be done right. I've seen many parts kits with pretty poor parts, obviously rejects from a production line with many of the parts out of spec. I've rebuilt and corrected too many of these parts guns built on Olympic lowers that were assembled incorrectly or had bad parts to count. Olymic arms and DPMS get bashed a lot becuase the receiver has their name on it but who knows where the rest of the rifle came from or who put it together? Yet Olympic Arms and DPMS get the blame. If you buy a used one don't bash the manufacturer unless you know it is not a parts gun. Even then both companies are easy to deal with to get the problem fixed.

Just my observations on ARs. Others vary.

Larry Gibson

[c3d4b2]

If you are able, I would recommend you purchase a lower and assemble it, then purchase a White Oak Armament upper. If you do not feel confident in building the lower, I would buy the lower and upper separately. It saves you from paying the tax on a complete rifle.

Unless things have changed recently, I would stay away from the Colt lowers. I have heard that they are machined differently to prevent full auto conversions and the machining can cause problems with the higher end triggers (I have not verified the triggers will not work) . Higher end triggers are very nice and are recommended if you can swing it. I have stayed away from the Colts. They seem to work fine, but they are higher priced with no real benefit for the extra money.

Here is a link with instructions on building. (Lowers are easy to put together and do not require any high price tools)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

The White Oak Armament upper is not a top of the line setup, but it is very close (the main difference is the barrel). It has a barrel tube that gives you a free floating barrel and if you use a sling the sling tension will not shift your point of aim. White Oak is affiliated with John Holliger. John is one of the top competitive AR builders in the country and he has helped both me and my brother with (self induced) issues we were having.

If you are planning on a better trigger you can also buy a lower kit from White Oak that does not have a trigger and save a few dollars.

Here is a link

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/

There are a few manufactures that actually build lowers. They build the lowers and mark them for the company they are building for. Here is a link with some info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=318113

I would also recommend the Wylde chamber. They seem to do well with what ever you feed them.

I would also highly recommend checking out the following books.

The Competitive AR15: the ultimate technical guide http://www.zediker.com/books/ar2/ARII_main.html


Black Magic—The Ultra Accurate AR-15
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=584265&t=11082005

[StarMetal]

If you are able, I would recommend you purchase a lower and assemble it, then purchase a White Oak Armament upper. If you do not feel confident in building the lower, I would buy the lower and upper separately. It saves you from paying the tax on a complete rifle.

Unless things have changed recently, I would stay away from the Colt lowers. I have heard that they are machined differently to prevent full auto conversions and the machining can cause problems with the higher end triggers (I have not verified the triggers will not work) . Higher end triggers are very nice and are recommended if you can swing it. I have stayed away from the Colts. They seem to work fine, but they are higher priced with no real benefit for the extra money.

Here is a link with instructions on building. (Lowers are easy to put together and do not require any high price tools)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

The White Oak Armament upper is not a top of the line setup, but it is very close (the main difference is the barrel). It has a barrel tube that gives you a free floating barrel and if you use a sling the sling tension will not shift your point of aim. White Oak is affiliated with John Holliger. John is one of the top competitive AR builders in the country and he has helped both me and my brother with (self induced) issues we were having.

If you are planning on a better trigger you can also buy a lower kit from White Oak that does not have a trigger and save a few dollars.

Here is a link

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/

There are a few manufactures that actually build lowers. They build the lowers and mark them for the company they are building for. Here is a link with some info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=318113

I would also recommend the Wylde chamber. They seem to do well with what ever you feed them.

I would also highly recommend checking out the following books.

The Competitive AR15: the ultimate technical guide http://www.zediker.com/books/ar2/ARII_main.html


Black Magic—The Ultra Accurate AR-15
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=584265&t=11082005


I can't verify on the high end triggers in the newer Colts, my older HBAR is preban and machined for the illegal stuff.

For your information, unless made specifically for full auto, all AR's are machined to prevent easy use of illegal stuff....it's the law. It's not just Colt.

[c3d4b2]

For your information, unless made specifically for full auto, all AR's are machined to prevent easy use of illegal stuff....it's the law. It's not just Colt.

This is true, however Colt had gone to extra steps. Please see the pictures below

Colt
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/coltsearblock02.jpg

Comparison
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/ar15nosear001.jpg

[StarMetal]

Yes they did go to extra steps. The point is moot in that it's against the law to convert, at least without proper paper work and permission, and why do that when you can buy the legal real McCoy.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it is questionable if ALL the high end triggers would fit. It's not the fitting necessarily, but getting the trigger past that block down to where it needs to go. The ones that are, what I call, enbloc triggers...you know the type you just drop in and pin....not like say a National Match two stage RRA's one.

[mike in co]

I can't verify on the high end triggers in the newer Colts, my older HBAR is preban and machined for the illegal stuff.

For your information, unless made specifically for full auto, all AR's are machined to prevent easy use of illegal stuff....it's the law. It's not just Colt.

not quite true....
the carrier and trigger are not full auto design... the recievers are,and all but colt could accept full auto parts.(ok technically the recvr are not marked for full or burst)
some smiths charge extra to work on a colt lower because of the trigger block.

my question is why buy from a single manufacture that makes his part less like everyone else ? why spend extra money for a colt and then not have it completely compatable with EVERYONE ELSE....

we must mention at this point that krappy kolt also has odd size trigger pin holes and an odd sized fron pivot pin.

so tell me again, why i should spend more money on a colt when it does not march the rest of the industry ??

(ohh and they dont make the part. they subcontract it out like nearly everyone else in the industry)



mike in co

[StarMetal]

not quite true....
the carrier and trigger are not full auto design... the recievers are,and all but colt could accept full auto parts.(ok technically the recvr are not marked for full or burst)
some smiths charge extra to work on a colt lower because of the trigger block.

my question is why buy from a single manufacture that makes his part less like everyone else ? why spend extra money for a colt and then not have it completely compatable with EVERYONE ELSE....

we must mention at this point that krappy kolt also has odd size trigger pin holes and an odd sized fron pivot pin.

so tell me again, why i should spend more money on a colt when it does not march the rest of the industry ??

(ohh and they dont make the part. they subcontract it out like nearly everyone else in the industry)



mike in co


...not quite so Mike. All the current lowers are machined to not fit auto parts. You need to take a depth gauge and measure the distance on from the top of the lower to the depth of the milling. You will find that the bottom floor in the spot where auto parts would fit are taller, or not as deep. In other words you have to mill deeper.....and wider.

The uppers, to my knowlede (maybe not Colt) still have the recess cut out where the auto sear would be, but I think it is a Ghost that has to be widened.

[riverwalker76]

I have 7 AR-15s and I love every one of them.

Truth be told most of your big brand companies buy from other manufacturers and assemble them.

DPMS and Bushmaster buy barrels from ER Shaw and Wilson Arms Co. depending on what barrel length, twist, etc ... Wilson Arms Co. manufactures all of Bushmaster's 24" barrels & all of their stainless barrels PERIOD.

To be quite honest with you ... I believe building is the ONLY way to go considering you can learn from the process, and be able to replace parts as needed without sending it back to the factory for replacement. Plus, you save upwards of $200 by building yourself and more on high end models.

Colt is just a brand name. My K.I.S.S. AR15s will shoot as well as any Colt. In comparison ... it's like comparing a Toyota to a Lexus ... they're the same car with different bells and whistles.

If you are dead set on buying a Brand and money isn't an object ... I'd steer away from the AR line altogether. From where I stand I am seeing a lot more people buying the Magpul Masada civilian clone ,better known as, the Bushmaster ACR. You can interchange calibers by swapping barrels and bolt carriers, and you aren't stuck with the same stock configuration. Your basic AR15 platform is still there.

Check out how easy it is .... who WOULDN'T want one?

http://splodetv.com/video/more-magpul-masada

[mike in co]

...not quite so Mike. All the current lowers are machined to not fit auto parts. You need to take a depth gauge and measure the distance on from the top of the lower to the depth of the milling. You will find that the bottom floor in the spot where auto parts would fit are taller, or not as deep. In other words you have to mill deeper.....and wider.

The uppers, to my knowlede (maybe not Colt) still have the recess cut out where the auto sear would be, but I think it is a Ghost that has to be widened.

any one have a date when this happened ?

[Larry Gibson]

It was in the '70s or early '80s I believe, a long time ago at any rate. Otherwise any AR that you could just drop the FA parts into would be "readily convertable" and thus a machine gun by BATF regs. Came about because of the "drop in" FA sears being sold through Shotgun News.

Larry Gibson

[c3d4b2]

Here is a picture that shows the differences between the AR15 and M16

...................... Left - AR15 .......................... Right - M16 ..................

http://www.quarterbore.com/images/nfa-ar-m16-01.jpg

[StarMetal]

any one have a date when this happened ?

I can tell you when Colt did it. I have a Colt HBAR made in the mid 80's and it is not constructed to prevent the use of full auto parts. Here's when and how:

It should be noted that during the 1990 year production, Colt
incorporated a number of change to the Sporter's lower
receiver. First, it is possible to find receivers with their
original AR-15 and Colt's Firearms Div. markings or
the newer Sporter and C.M.C. markings. Second, the
constuction of the lower receiver was change to one which
followed that of the M-16A2 more closely. This can be seen
in the beefing up of the rear of the receiver and the boss
around the magazine release. At some point the M-16 type,
front lower receiver, push pin replaced the screw type, used
on the early AR's. And finally, by the end of 1990, Colt, had
placed a pinned in block into the lower receiver to prevent
the use of auto sears. As usually it seems that Colt added
these changes as old parts were used up. These changes don't
seem to occur at the same time in each model.
Because of this, one can find many variations in the 1990
year production.

As for other manufacturers you can be guaranteed it wasn't before that because
Colt was the first to cave in.

Now from nearly the very beginning there were of course changes to make the
AR15 semi automatic and I think most of us know what those are.

[StarMetal]

Mike,

on the left hand rifle notice that shelf just right behind the selector. That height/depth, whatever you wish to call it, was in the change in addition to the walls being thicker.

[StarMetal]

List of AR15 lower manufacturers:

Lewis Machine & Tool

LMT
Lauer
DS Arms
PWA
Eagle
Armalite
Knights Armament
Barrett

Continental Machine Tool

Stag
Rock River Arms
High Standard
Noveske
Century (New)
Global Tactical
CLE
S&W
MGI
Wilson Tactical
Grenadier Precision
Colt

LAR Manufacturing

LAR
Bushmaster
Ameetec
DPMS
CMMG
Double Star
Fulton Armory
Spike's Tactical

JVP

Double Star
LRB
Charles Daly

Mega Machine Shop

Mega
GSE
Dalphon
POF
Alexander Arms

Olympic

Olympic
SGW
Tromix
Palmetto
Dalphon
Frankford
Century (Old)

Sun Devil

Sun Devil forged billet receivers

Superior

Superior Arms
Lauer (New)


Aero Precision

Aero Precision

[a.squibload]

Any thoughts on the 458 Socom? Would a 458 upper really fit almost any lower?
A lot more expensive? Etc., etc...

[Lloyd Smale]

socom will fit on any ar15 lower. Personaly if i was to buy another big bore ar it would be the 450bushmaster. I allready have a beo to shoot heavys and my buddys bushmaster is fun to shoot with 250 grain hornady xtps. Real light recoil and still has the power to take about any animal. It would also allow for the use of the ton of 45 colt bullets i have casted. The 458 is capable of shooting 400 plus grain cast and jacketed and puts it close to the beo in power. Finding bullets under 300 grain can be tough though. Any of the three loaded properly is capable of taking any game animal in the US though. Just something about the thump the 50 beo puts on things though. My wife used one to shoot a 1600lb cow water buffalo last year and it did well. Surprising too is how well the reineer hps hold together and expand. I thought they were pretty much junk bullets when I first started using them but somehow they got the alloy right in them and they do just as well as any soft point bullet weve penetration tested and the flat nose version will give a cast bullet in that weight range a run for its money.

[mike in co]

thanks for the replies.
i have no need nor desire for a full auto and have never paid much attention to that part of the rifle.
i knew colt had sold us out in 89 to try and save thier m16 government sales, but had not heard of the generic changes to the lowers.

i shoot a lot of single shot ars...more about accuracy than blasting. i do shoot three gun and just picked up pcs for an 7.62x39 upper to go on a composite lower.

mike in co

[riverwalker76]

List of AR15 lower manufacturers:

Lewis Machine & Tool

LMT
Lauer
DS Arms
PWA
Eagle
Armalite
Knights Armament
Barrett

Continental Machine Tool

Stag
Rock River Arms
High Standard
Noveske
Century (New)
Global Tactical
CLE
S&W
MGI
Wilson Tactical
Grenadier Precision
Colt

LAR Manufacturing

LAR
Bushmaster
Ameetec
DPMS
CMMG
Double Star
Fulton Armory
Spike's Tactical

JVP

Double Star
LRB
Charles Daly

Mega Machine Shop

Mega
GSE
Dalphon
POF
Alexander Arms

Olympic

Olympic
SGW
Tromix
Palmetto
Dalphon
Frankford
Century (Old)

Sun Devil

Sun Devil forged billet receivers

Superior

Superior Arms
Lauer (New)


Aero Precision

Aero Precision



Don't forget ... Xtreme Machining. They produce some really nice Aluminum milled receivers for a great price.

The thing with the lower AR receivers is ... since the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 expired machine shops across the country popped up and started milling receivers.

I would go as far to bet that 90% of lower receivers are ALL milled from the same stock. One company probably makes the billets and everyone buys the billets to machine lowers out of. The good thing about this ..... you can find lower receivers a dime a dozen. I can get a stripped lower for around $60 locally because the market is flooded with them.

[StarMetal]

My list is not complete on lower receivers. One company, to my knowledge doesn't make the "billets" for everyone that machined out lower receivers. One reason I say this is because there are basically two types of lower receivers. One is forged and the other is cast. We can throw in a third type and that is a steel one.

[StarMetal]

thanks for the replies.
i have no need nor desire for a full auto and have never paid much attention to that part of the rifle.
i knew colt had sold us out in 89 to try and save thier m16 government sales, but had not heard of the generic changes to the lowers.

i shoot a lot of single shot ars...more about accuracy than blasting. i do shoot three gun and just picked up pcs for an 7.62x39 upper to go on a composite lower.

mike in co


Mike,

I regret never having bought one (or more) of the "drop in auto sears" when they were legal and available at a very low price. The reason was pointed out to me by my good friend. I was thinking about buying a full auto M16. He told me that if I bought the real McCoy and I worn it out (speaking about the lower which is serial numbered and thus the registered part) that I would have purchase another M16 going through the whole process again. With the drop in auto sear, the only part that is registered is the auto sear. Wear the rifle out that the auto sear is in and you merely place it in another rifle. The auto sears are serial numbers.

There are still a few auto sears around but there costs is about the same as a complete M16.

[c3d4b2]

Would you know who is making a steel lower? DPMS use to have one, however they are not currently making them and I waited to long before deciding to get one.

[StarMetal]

Would you know who is making a steel lower? DPMS use to have one, however they are not currently making them and I waited to long before deciding to get one.

Currently I'm not aware of who makes a steel lower steel receiver but I do know who makes a ceramic metal matrix lower. Go here:


http://www.ar15plus.com/noc/shop/products_detail.asp?CategoryID=29&ProductID=128

[dk17hmr]

You guys are forgetting polymer lowers.

[StarMetal]

I wasn't forgetting the polymer lowers, just thought maybe not many here interested in them. I was going to mention that the ACR is polymer but didn't. Lots never cared for HK when they went polymer.

[StarMetal]

About Bushmaster barrels:

Bushmaster is a choclate onion on this issue.

For some things, they buy from Lothar Walter. This is the odd high end stuff.

For the 5.56 stuff, here is what they do.

The buy steel out of Canada. Then ship it to one of two places for drilling and rifling. Green Mountain is one of them.

Then, they send them out to contouring.

Then out to plating and other stuff.

It is a strange system.

[82nd airborne]

you can get a stripped lower from dsa for $55.

[mike in co]

and plum crazy fireaarms makes a compostite complete lower with composite fire control parts and a 6 *** butt stock...retail 140 intro.....

i am placing an order for...........well more than a dozen and lesssssss than....hmmmmmmmm.
( i part time as a special order clerk for an ffl)

[StarMetal]

I got my STAG complete lowers, ready to pin the upper too for $120.

[82nd airborne]

thats a pretty good price...

[dk17hmr]

and plum crazy fireaarms makes a compostite complete lower with composite fire control parts and a 6 *** butt stock...retail 140 intro.....

i am placing an order for...........well more than a dozen and lesssssss than....hmmmmmmmm.
( i part time as a special order clerk for an ffl)

Paid $99 each for my Plum Crazy lowers about 3 months ago...very very very happy with them.

[StarMetal]

Doug,

You done good and more importantly you're happy with what you purchased. That's what really matters.[smilie=s:

[mike in co]

Paid $99 each for my Plum Crazy lowers about 3 months ago...very very very happy with them.

i aint saying what were paying....notice i only listed a intro msrp price.....


but yes its a good deal.....


you want a light 16" carry gun...this is how to get there...replace the stocked lower on an m4 16 carbine and you drop over 2 lbs!

mike in co

[Lloyd Smale]

anyone make one of those light weight lowers for an ar10? If so can you post a link?

[mike in co]

anyone make one of those light weight lowers for an ar10? If so can you post a link?

not that i know of.....

[Lloyd Smale]

sure would be nice to knock a lb or two off the weight of an ar10!

[StarMetal]

LWC has a 308 16 or 18 inch piston driven AR 10 type rifle with all the whistles and bells that weight around 9 lbs. I've see some on DPMS's website that you can get down to 8 lbs.

[GabbyM]

LWC has a 308 16 or 18 inch piston driven AR 10 type rifle with all the whistles and bells that weight around 9 lbs. I've see some on DPMS's website that you can get down to 8 lbs.

To anyone thinking about a 16 or 18 inch barrel 308 caliber rifle. I would highly suggest you try shooting one first. I don't like short barrels on a rifle anyway just from a ballistics point. But I've fired a Remington 660 IIRC with short vent rib barrel. Was the nastiest firearm I've shot in my life. Flame out the barrel for a distance measured in feet not inches.

When Springfield Armory came out with the Tanker M1. Gun mags had a few articles on it. Seams the US Army did test a short barrel M1. Was rejected due to excessive muzzle blast of the short barrel. I completely concur with the army's decision from back then.

I'd never personally own or even shoot a 308 with a barrel of less than 22” and I'd never buy one under 24”. You need the weight out on the end to keep the gun down under recoil anyway.

I have tenitis (ringing of the ears). Have been told by doctors it only takes nine shots from loud guns to cause this. Like a big revolver out the window of a pickup truck where the blast comes back at you like you have a bucket over your head.

[StarMetal]

LWC is looking to make an alternative to the M4 carbine for out boys over in the sand box so they have something that shoots a bullet with more knock down power. I agree with you a short barreled 308 is nasty as is any other short barreled rifles.

[82nd airborne]

even a 10.5 inch 5.56 is rediculously loud, i say again, rediculously...

[9.3X62AL]

I'm in a similar spot to the original poster--doing some R&D in the direction of buying my first AR-15. I've carried them and used them quite a bit at work, but was never really motivated to own one. We ran Colts, Bushmasters, and Armalites at my old agency, and all of them worked very well. I didn't see a lot to choose from between the three makers we had in service. Most of our deputies opted for the carbine versions by about a 3 to 1 ratio.

My own preferences--as determined to date--run more toward an "A2" example--20" barrel with permanent iron sights, NATO chamber/throat, hard stock, no chrome lining in bore, HBAR profile. A second upper would follow, slick top with scope rail--24" heavy barrel with 223 chamber. Both uppers would have 1-9" twist.

[GabbyM]

for a long barrel I'd take a look at the 26" match or target profile here. http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/index.htm
I like the gas tube being extended 2" farther out.

Bull barrels out past 20" get very nose heavy. I have a 20" Bull barrel and it's a hunk of steel. works well as you can see bullet strikes within your scope view as it is stable under recoil.

[StarMetal]

The AR15 becomes unwieldy with a barrel over 24 inches. Another thing a 26 or 28 inch barrel puts a tremendous amount of stress on that little frail upper receiver and barrel nut. Not a good idea.

[GabbyM]

The AR15 becomes unwieldy with a barrel over 24 inches. Another thing a 26 or 28 inch barrel puts a tremendous amount of stress on that little frail upper receiver and barrel nut. Not a good idea.

The match profile barrels are turned thinner than a bull barrel which is a common long barrel. Which is why I linked to it.
I put my 20” Bull on one of those thick uppers with no forward assist or dust cover. As far as unwieldy. Well that depends upon how you plan to shoot it. Bull barrel in 20” does swing slow. Thinking it may be about the same as a 26” match as far as balance. Never had them side by side to compare. Friend had a 26” bull. Was so muzzle heavy he placed one of the lead wedge weights in the but-stock to bring center of gravity back. Think it was under fifteen pounds. It just went form the pickup to a portable bench. Shot nice but my 26” barrel bolt gun would out range it by fifty to one hundred yards. Shooting prairie dogs. Not sure why.

The auto load cycle does not help me a bit out prairie dog shooting. I've two daughters and AR's make great lady's guns.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont you use ear protection. I find a 16 inch 308 not a bit tougher to shoot then a 24 inch with good ear protection. If in a firefight id gladly put up with noise of a 16 inch gun vs the weight and clumsyness of a 24 inch ar. Id bet 90 percent of the guys on this fourm have a bit of tentis. Mostly from the fact alot of us are old and back when we started shooting nobody thought to use ear protection. I doubt anymore i shoot 6 shots a year without them. A 308 to me in a bolt gun is a gun that should be short and light. The 308 is realitivly effecient in a short barrel and has vertually no recoil so weight sure isnt a problem. In an ar10 with a 16 inch barrel the 308 is about like shooting a a mild 250 savage load out of a bolt. If im going to tote around a 8lb 24 inch bolt gun i wouldnt waste my time with a 308. I step up to at least a 06 and even that has no place in a barrel longer then 22 in my opinion. 24 inch barrels are for varmit guns and magnums and for a hunter that rides around in a truck. I hunt in the woods and walk most of the day and will gladly give up a few fps and put up with a little more noise to be able to carry a trim little rifle that weights 2 or 3 lbs less. I carried my 16 inch ar10 last deer season and it got to be a pain in the but. Nice gun but to heavy for a deer rifle.
To anyone thinking about a 16 or 18 inch barrel 308 caliber rifle. I would highly suggest you try shooting one first. I don't like short barrels on a rifle anyway just from a ballistics point. But I've fired a Remington 660 IIRC with short vent rib barrel. Was the nastiest firearm I've shot in my life. Flame out the barrel for a distance measured in feet not inches.

When Springfield Armory came out with the Tanker M1. Gun mags had a few articles on it. Seams the US Army did test a short barrel M1. Was rejected due to excessive muzzle blast of the short barrel. I completely concur with the army's decision from back then.

I'd never personally own or even shoot a 308 with a barrel of less than 22” and I'd never buy one under 24”. You need the weight out on the end to keep the gun down under recoil anyway.

I have tenitis (ringing of the ears). Have been told by doctors it only takes nine shots from loud guns to cause this. Like a big revolver out the window of a pickup truck where the blast comes back at you like you have a bucket over your head.

[mike in co]

dont you use ear protection. I find a 16 inch 308 not a bit tougher to shoot then a 24 inch with good ear protection. If in a firefight id gladly put up with noise of a 16 inch gun vs the weight and clumsyness of a 24 inch ar. Id bet 90 percent of the guys on this fourm have a bit of tentis. Mostly from the fact alot of us are old and back when we started shooting nobody thought to use ear protection. I doubt anymore i shoot 6 shots a year without them. A 308 to me in a bolt gun is a gun that should be short and light. The 308 is realitivly effecient in a short barrel and has vertually no recoil so weight sure isnt a problem. In an ar10 with a 16 inch barrel the 308 is about like shooting a a mild 250 savage load out of a bolt. If im going to tote around a 8lb 24 inch bolt gun i wouldnt waste my time with a 308. I step up to at least a 06 and even that has no place in a barrel longer then 22 in my opinion. 24 inch barrels are for varmit guns and magnums and for a hunter that rides around in a truck. I hunt in the woods and walk most of the day and will gladly give up a few fps and put up with a little more noise to be able to carry a trim little rifle that weights 2 or 3 lbs less. I carried my 16 inch ar10 last deer season and it got to be a pain in the but. Nice gun but to heavy for a deer rifle.

but lloyd...
who makes a mag fed(20 /24 rds) 30'06 in a 8 lb rifle ??
i see no need for a 16" 308... a 20 works just fine..and a 24 even better.
i have 2 24" 308 ar10's both are tack drivers.....( one is a dedicated br gun, the other is a long range gun)
i'll take an ar15 platform over an ar10 in a short range fire fight..just cause of the mag capacity and such things as the 6.8.........223 with a 77.........

but i also thought a 14.5 was silly on an ar...but in 3 rd burst it puts 3 on a man sized target at 100...so who knows.....

mike in co

[StarMetal]

The match profile barrels are turned thinner than a bull barrel which is a common long barrel. Which is why I linked to it.
I put my 20” Bull on one of those thick uppers with no forward assist or dust cover. As far as unwieldy. Well that depends upon how you plan to shoot it. Bull barrel in 20” does swing slow. Thinking it may be about the same as a 26” match as far as balance. Never had them side by side to compare. Friend had a 26” bull. Was so muzzle heavy he placed one of the lead wedge weights in the but-stock to bring center of gravity back. Think it was under fifteen pounds. It just went form the pickup to a portable bench. Shot nice but my 26” barrel bolt gun would out range it by fifty to one hundred yards. Shooting prairie dogs. Not sure why.

The auto load cycle does not help me a bit out prairie dog shooting. I've two daughters and AR's make great lady's guns.

There is still a lot of leverage on that receiver extension on the upper receiver. Have anyone weighed a flat top upper receiver, just the receiver itself? It amazes me they can even hold an AR15 together alone support a long barrel whether it's a thin profile or not.

I'm just telling you what he experts have to say about the real long barrels. They also claim the should be benched too to help the receiver support that weight. Alexander Arms Loc-Tite's their barrel nut and barrel extension.

[GabbyM]

There is still a lot of leverage on that receiver extension on the upper receiver. Have anyone weighed a flat top upper receiver, just the receiver itself? It amazes me they can even hold an AR15 together alone support a long barrel whether it's a thin profile or not.

I'm just telling you what he experts have to say about the real long barrels. They also claim the should be benched too to help the receiver support that weight. Alexander Arms Loc-Tite's their barrel nut and barrel extension.

https://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=821&cat=1704

That's the receiver I used. A DPMS Low Pro. I think it's overkill on weight and probably will end up wishing I had a dust cover. I run a brass deflector on it that clamps over the rail to pile the brass up neat.

I've never heard of an AR coming apart at the barrel nut or any issues with receiver flex. I do not consider the extension or barrel nut to be a week link. I could be missing something as shooters likely don't go around bragging on how there rifle came apart on them. Have heard of all sorts of parts coming loose from poor assembly. If a barrel nut were to fail I'd chalk it up to someone striping it's threads. I've worked with dozens of men who would strip all the 3/4” calmp bolts on a milling machine holding fixture in a single shift. I can guarantee you those boys would mess up an AR assembly evey single time over and over again.

Personally I'd rather have a thin 20” barrel than a fat 16” barrel. I've no plans of attaching a bayonet to break steel banding off crates. DPMS list there A1 upper complete for $444. IIRC that plastic lower complete with but stock was $129 so $563 retail total plus shipping. One of my local gun shops had Stag rifles for a bit over that price. For a shorter barrel you can get a post ban without the almost useless flash hider.

For law enforcement, kicking down doors and especially hand cuffing perps a shorty would indeed be handy. but I have absolutely zero ambition to do any of that. For a long barrel rifle I would just use a bolt action like I have. But many shooters want both the long gun and auto load. I've never seen a long AR that would shoot with a good bolt gun of the same weight. Seen a bunch of guys try to do it.

[StarMetal]

Gabby,

Next time you have a stripped upper receiver measure the thickness of that thread extension. Just to give you an idea how soft that area is when one is torquing the barrel nut on and doesn't lube the face of the barrel flange that the nut bears against it creates friction which results in the barrel trying to turn. The indexing pin on the barrel extension purpose is not to prevent that, but to index the barrel...that is the gas port at dean 12 o'clock and the front sight. So what happens the index pin indents that fragile and thin threaded extension. The extension is soft and frail.

You're welcome to your own opinions. I'm merely giving you the real facts so that you can decide upon them.

You haven't worked with enough AR 15's if you haven't seen a barrel nut or barrel come loose.

Let me ask you this. How many barrels have you seen that unscrewed from the barrel extension by someone removing the flash hider improperly?

[Larry Gibson]

Having not only shot but stood beside someone who was shooting a very short barreled (muzzle was right in front of the gas port) for about 40 rounds of M80 and M118 I have to say the experience was not pleasant and it was down right distracting. Not only the immensley increased muzzle blast noise (I was wearing both plugs and muffs and was still flinching) but the concusion was fierce also. This was at Campbell Barracks with the Australian SAS back in the '80s. The SAS boys did not care for it at all and said shooting it indoors was like being in the same room when a flash/bang went off, not pleasant at all.

Now back before SA brought out the "bush" rifle I shortened an M1A barrel to 18" and remounted the flash suppressor. I also bedded it into a GI fiberglass stock with the butt plate removed and a recoil pad installed. The rifle weighed right at 8 lbs with a 10 round mag. Attached is me with it (on right holding coyote). It was a handy rifle for getting in and out of the jeep but I never found it to be really any better than the standard M1A with 22" barrel. I shot the barrel out (a little over 8,000 rounds) and put a standard M14 barrel back on it. That works just as well for me.

I also, about the same time I did the above, shortened an '06 bolt action from 24 to 20". I hunted many years with that rifle and found it fine (it also had an M14 flash suppressor on it so the muzzle blast wasn't too bad). However, my two current '06s have 24" barrels which I prefer. I also have a couple 22 and 24" barreled .308s (have a 26 and 27.5" ones too) and find them every bit as handy in "the tick stuff o" of the PNW rain forrests as any shorter barreled rifle. I find little difference between my 20" barreled M94 and my 24" barrled M94AE either.

I guess being raised hunting in the "thick stuff" of the coastal mountains in Oregon I learned how to handle longer barreled rifles. Probably humping an M60 in Viet Nam along with 200 rounds of ammo gave a different perspective on a 9 - 10 pound rifle. But to each his own, I've used a lot of short, medium and longer barreled rifles in combat and peacetime hunting. I prefer the longer barrels is all. What others like is up to them but I do not like being on a firing line when they shoot such short barreled rifles anymore. All of my ARs have 20" barrels and I am comfortable with the 24" models. I've no use at all for the M4 or it's civilian counterpart as I believe the 5.56/.223 is marginal enough to 300 meters without giving up more by shortening the barrel. Time is crtical in multiple target CQB engagements and having to shoot an enemy 2 - 3 or more times gives another enemy time to shoot you. Being able to carry 3 times as much ammo does not make sense when you have to shoot an enemy 3 times instead of once either. I have used 5.56, .30 Carbine, 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO, 9mm and 45 ACP in combat. I prefer 7.62 NATO for that role. However, in civilian personal defense the the ranges are (or at least should be) quite close and most of the other cartridges are adequate with correct ammo and the application of correct marksmanship.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Here's some more information on AR15's to keep this on topic before it goes askew.

I was talking to my friend Arne Brenan and asked him his opinion. He's one of the fellows most responsible for the development of the 6.5 Grendel and he's also an accomplished bench rest shooter. This is what he had to say:

It all depends on how the barrel is designed and what receiver you mount it on.

Billet receivers are more rigid than regular forged receivers and can handle more weight.


It also depends on the cartridge and the caliber and what you are going to do with it.


IMO, the best two barrel lengths in the AR are 18 and 22 inches.


going from 18-22 is is worth maybe 75-100 fps
going from 22 to 24 is worth maybe 30 fps
going from 24 to 26 is worth maybe 20 fps
going from 26 to 28 is worth maybe 10-15 fps


The main purpose for a long barrel is to increase the sight radiius on match rifles.


It is also important if you are trying to squeeze every fps you can out of a small cartridg

[frank505]

Mike in CO and Lloyd
How about an 8 pound 30GOVT06 that gets fed with charger clips? My little 1903 21" and Model 54 both are under 8 lbs and reloads are quick. Of course both are equipped with Lyman 48 rear sights, no nancy boy bedwetter scopes on a real rifle.

[Down South]

Well this one thread that I started that really took off and I appreciate all of the info. I’m thinking that I may buy another upper in the future. I’ll probably buy another lower too plus extras. I’d like to put something together for long range. I guess what I’m saying is that I’ll build an AR later on. This one is for plinking and if TSHTF. I got to thinking, out of all of the revolvers, pistols and hunting rifles that I have, I don’t have nutin for group therapy.

[mike in co]

https://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=821&cat=1704
I've never seen a long AR that would shoot with a good bolt gun of the same weight. Seen a bunch of guys try to do it.

ask me......
is sub .5 in a 24 ar10 ok ?
is sub 0.2 in a 24 ar10 ok
is sub 0.2 in a 26 ar15 ok ??

mike in co

[mike in co]

Mike in CO and Lloyd
How about an 8 pound 30GOVT06 that gets fed with charger clips? My little 1903 21" and Model 54 both are under 8 lbs and reloads are quick. Of course both are equipped with Lyman 48 rear sights, no nancy boy bedwetter scopes on a real rifle.

no because it is not mag fed...simple lets not mix apples and oranges.....

like i said show me you '06 in a 20 /25 rd mag fed config...

[c3d4b2]

I've never seen a long AR that would shoot with a good bolt gun of the same weight. Seen a bunch of guys try to do it.

It kind of depends on the comparison. If you are comparing AR's to bench rest, the Bench rest will be more accurate. Generally at the High power rifle matches, the AR's can hold there own with the bolt guns. The AR's do seem to have an advantage in the rapid fire stages due to not having to work the bolt and magazine reloads are easier than stripper clips.

When I first started shooting highpower I was amazed at how accurate AR's were. In the hands of the better shooters I saw on several occasions 2 to 3 inch 10 shot rapid fire groups. In the sitting rapids (at 200 yards) the shooter would start from a standing position and when the targets went up he would have 60 seconds to assume the sitting position and fire 2 shots, change the magazine then fire 8 shots in 60 seconds. Of course the bolt guns are doing just as well, though there does not seem to be as many bolt guns.

Off of a bench I have seen AR's shoot groups similar to Mike's examples.

[GabbyM]

Gabby,

Next time you have a stripped upper receiver measure the thickness of that thread extension. Just to give you an idea how soft that area is when one is torquing the barrel nut on and doesn't lube the face of the barrel flange that the nut bears against it creates friction which results in the barrel trying to turn. The indexing pin on the barrel extension purpose is not to prevent that, but to index the barrel...that is the gas port at dean 12 o'clock and the front sight. So what happens the index pin indents that fragile and thin threaded extension. The extension is soft and frail.

You're welcome to your own opinions. I'm merely giving you the real facts so that you can decide upon them.

You haven't worked with enough AR 15's if you haven't seen a barrel nut or barrel come loose.

Let me ask you this. How many barrels have you seen that unscrewed from the barrel extension by someone removing the flash hider improperly?

That would be pretty hard since the barrel does not screw into the receiver. I'm sure if Buba held or clamped the receiver instead of placing the barrel in a barrel vise then wrenched the flash hider he would trash the receiver. But how do you unscrew a barrel that is not screwed in? I'm not understanding why abuse is in any way connected to a design weakness. Same with no grease on the barrel nut.
Take a pipe wrench to a Mauser and see how long it stays serviceable.

I and everyone else has seen all sorts of issues from over torqued barres in bolt guns and revolvers. It's like a plague. There is no hope for anyone who would fail to use grease on a barrel nut more than after the first time. Blame the barrel or the nut but we all know who is to blame regardless of where fingers are pointing. Personally when I am torquing a nut and the first hole aligns for the gas tube anywhere close to the torque value I stop there and call it good. First one I did I saw where the tighten it up boys would go for the next hole thus exceeding torque value. In there mind tighter is always better and they can destroy hundreds of dollars worth of machine tooling every shift for twenty years and never change there ways. ( Yes the machine tooling destruction is a personal pet peeve of mine which is vaguely connected to this thread. )

I did buy the heaviest receiver offered for my heavy barrel build. So I'm not of a mind that there is no flex involved. But the receiver barrel extension as far as I know has little stress under recoil which is where any big flexing occurs. If we had reports of bolt lugs wearing off linear or breaking due to suspected flex I'd be interested. Or any accuracy issues. Most of all I've never in my life heard of a barrel coming loose due to the extension stretching to allow a nut to loosen. It may have happened but I've never heard of such a thing and heavy barrel AR's shoot one hole 100 yard groups .

Am not at all impressed by other people destroying receivers. Any more than all the stuff people tear up when working on cars under a shade tree. Or on the production clock at a dealership. Plus having machined quite a bit of 7075 I can say it's probably way tougher than you may think. Not trying to be argumentative.

Have been hearing all about how Mickey Mouse guns don't work since the sixties and have never bought into it and have never had one fall apart in my hands and I've been shooting them for forty years. I may have had a jam but not sure. Do remember adjusting by bending the feed lips on aluminum mags so the bullets would set correctly but can't recall if I incurred a jam due to that or fixed it first. Since I bought my SP-1 for $69.95 at K-Mart I've been enduring scorn for shooting a mouse gun. I've become somewhat defensive over the years and I'm sure that shows in my post.

When AR's got popular I bough a VW diesel car so I could once again have people tell me I owned the wrong machine and I'd be sorry. I just missed the scorn.

BTW StarMetal: Do you know the hull of an Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer will bounce a 5" shell off. And it's only 3/4" thick in places. 3/4” of that alloy has the strength of 12” of the steel on a WWII battle ship hull. USS Cole was just hit with a very large load of HE. But since it broke was it a design flaw?

[StarMetal]

That would be pretty hard since the barrel does not screw into the receiver. I'm sure if Buba held or clamped the receiver instead of placing the barrel in a barrel vise then wrenched the flash hider he would trash the receiver. But how do you unscrew a barrel that is not screwed in? I'm not understanding why abuse is in any way connected to a design weakness. Same with no grease on the barrel nut.
Take a pipe wrench to a Mauser and see how long it stays serviceable.

I and everyone else has seen all sorts of issues from over torqued barres in bolt guns and revolvers. It's like a plague. There is no hope for anyone who would fail to use grease on a barrel nut more than after the first time. Blame the barrel or the nut but we all know who is to blame regardless of where fingers are pointing. Personally when I am torquing a nut and the first hole aligns for the gas tube anywhere close to the torque value I stop there and call it good. First one I did I saw where the tighten it up boys would go for the next hole thus exceeding torque value. In there mind tighter is always better and they can destroy hundreds of dollars worth of machine tooling every shift for twenty years and never change there ways. ( Yes the machine tooling destruction is a personal pet peeve of mine which is vaguely connected to this thread. )

I did buy the heaviest receiver offered for my heavy barrel build. So I'm not of a mind that there is no flex involved. But the receiver barrel extension as far as I know has little stress under recoil which is where any big flexing occurs. If we had reports of bolt lugs wearing off linear or breaking due to suspected flex I'd be interested. Or any accuracy issues. Most of all I've never in my life heard of a barrel coming loose due to the extension stretching to allow a nut to loosen. It may have happened but I've never heard of such a thing and heavy barrel AR's shoot one hole 100 yard groups .

Am not at all impressed by other people destroying receivers. Any more than all the stuff people tear up when working on cars under a shade tree. Or on the production clock at a dealership. Plus having machined quite a bit of 7075 I can say it's probably way tougher than you may think. Not trying to be argumentative.

Have been hearing all about how Mickey Mouse guns don't work since the sixties and have never bought into it and have never had one fall apart in my hands and I've been shooting them for forty years. I may have had a jam but not sure. Do remember adjusting by bending the feed lips on aluminum mags so the bullets would set correctly but can't recall if I incurred a jam due to that or fixed it first. Since I bought my SP-1 for $69.95 at K-Mart I've been enduring scorn for shooting a mouse gun. I've become somewhat defensive over the years and I'm sure that shows in my post.

When AR's got popular I bough a VW diesel car so I could once again have people tell me I owned the wrong machine and I'd be sorry. I just missed the scorn.

BTW StarMetal: Do you know the hull of an Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer will bounce a 5" shell off. And it's only 3/4" thick in places. 3/4” of that alloy has the strength of 12” of the steel on a WWII battle ship hull. USS Cole was just hit with a very large load of HE. But since it broke was it a design flaw?

Gabby,

Here's what happened. First let me say that the barrel extension is held fast to the receiver by both the index pin and by the friction of the barrel nut against the barrel extension flange. So by just holding the rifle a few people have removed, or tried should I say, the flash hider with a a Cresent wrench and turned the barrel lose from the barrel extension. Yes, they should have used a barrel clamp in removal of the flash hider. The question that arose upon that happening is how the heck could I have unscrewed the barrel with a 6-7-8 inch Cresent wrench when the barrel is supposedly torqued over 100 pounds?

BTW....the hulls you spoke on those Destroyers aren't make out of the aluminum the AR receivers are. Was that your point that the hull being relatively thin were strong beyond imaginations just like the thread extension portion of the upper receiver?

[GabbyM]

It kind of depends on the comparison. If you are comparing AR's to bench rest, the Bench rest will be more accurate. Generally at the High power rifle matches, the AR's can hold there own with the bolt guns. The AR's do seem to have an advantage in the rapid fire stages due to not having to work the bolt and magazine reloads are easier than stripper clips.

When I first started shooting highpower I was amazed at how accurate AR's were. In the hands of the better shooters I saw on several occasions 2 to 3 inch 10 shot rapid fire groups. In the sitting rapids (at 200 yards) the shooter would start from a standing position and when the targets went up he would have 60 seconds to assume the sitting position and fire 2 shots, change the magazine then fire 8 shots in 60 seconds. Of course the bolt guns are doing just as well, though there does not seem to be as many bolt guns.

Off of a bench I have seen AR's shoot groups similar to Mike's examples.

It's the velocity hence maximum range that I've not seen an AR make. See post #? by StarMetal with it's velocity chart. Looks correct to me. However with a non gas vented bolt gun in 26” barrel I've no trouble sending a 53gr bullet at over 3,400 fps. I've shot next to two different long barrel AR's prairie dog shooting. Even after swapping ammo the bolt gun had between fifty to one hundred yards range on the AR. Swapped shooters too. None of my bolt gun loads exceeded published data.

White Oaks sells 26” AR barrels with a gas port moved 2” forward but they do not advertise an increase in velocity. Port pressure with slow powder is supposed to be the reason for moving the port forward.

Arching heavy for caliber bullets at long range works better on paper than on an unknown range moving critter. 8” twist bolt guns with 69 grain bullets do not make hits on dogs at long range over a 50 grain Blitz-King from a 12” twist barrel. It's not even a contest. All those 600 yard scores you see AR match rifles turning in with 77 or 80 grain bullets don't mean much out in the field. For one thing they take to long to get there and the critter moves out of the way of your bullet. Note you do not see a big move by small varmint shooters into heavy for caliber bullets. Sierra 65 grain Game King is one heck of a yote killer though. Which is what my 20” AR is set up to shoot along with it's sister 69 grain MK.

I have three 22 rifles. A 5.56mm AR a 223 AR and a 223 Bolt gun. All are set up for completely different task and the ammo for them is not interchangeable to the point where most of it will not even chamber in another rifle. Bolt gun for instance gets neck sized cases that will not chamber in either AR. I do get to use the same high price match grade dies and all that prep equipment but the ammo must be labeled as to what rifle it shoots in. If I shoot cases sized to fit the 223 rifles in the old 5.56mm rifle groups open way up. You can have a 1 and a ¼ inch rifle or a 2 1/2” shotgun. I've never checked to see what rounds interchange since it's a moot issue. That's what ammo cans with stickers are for.

I did purchase a 1,000 piece box of Hornady once fired cases for $50 dollars off reloadersauction dot com this winter. That right there is a reason to shoot 223 rilfes.
22 bullets are cheap and cast boollets can be made in a years suply from one pot of lead. ;)

Never have set up on the 500 yard line at Effingham , Illinois with my 20" barrel AR with 69gr MK's against my Rem 700 26" with 50 grain blitz-Kings. Only run irons or a 1x X 3x Weaver on the AR while I have a 6 x 24X on my bolt gun. But the trigger pull alone would be a game breaker.

[GabbyM]

Gabby,

Here's what happened. First let me say that the barrel extension is held fast to the receiver by both the index pin and by the friction of the barrel nut against the barrel extension flange. So by just holding the rifle a few people have removed, or tried should I say, the flash hider with a a Cresent wrench and turned the barrel lose from the barrel extension. Yes, they should have used a barrel clamp in removal of the flash hider. The question that arose upon that happening is how the heck could I have unscrewed the barrel with a 6-7-8 inch Cresent wrench when the barrel is supposedly torqued over 100 pounds?

BTW....the hulls you spoke on those Destroyers aren't make out of the aluminum the AR receivers are. Was that your point that the hull being relatively thin were strong beyond imaginations just like the thread extension portion of the upper receiver?

What I was getting at with the ships hulls is advancement in metallurgy. It's been leaps and bounds every ten years. We have aluminum you can whittle with a pocket knife then 7075 will make a 20 horse power mill shake like a 25 cent coin operated Motel 6 bed with a .060” deep pass.

I do realize an AR is not to hard to break. Am sure there are many ways to break one that I've never considered. A wrench is a powerful tool. They can move about anything and if they can't you just need a longer one.

My argument is a properly assembled then in good working order AR running without failure to a long life. After the wrenches and hammers come out all bets are off.

[a.squibload]

Dangit, you guys about talked me out of buying an AR. Allow me to ramble:

Had considered a 458 Socom AR but 450 Bush is straight-walled and should be easier to reload,
also takes pistol boolits. At least these are not 22 caliber and would HAVE some terminal ballistic effect.
A freind was in Iraq and almost got shot by a BG that he had put two 22 holes in already.

"Civilian personal defense range" might be changing in light of the recent invasion of Arizona,
still I wonder if SHTF situation in my mostly urban environment would ever require more than 50 yards of trajectory.

If it ain't short enough I probably wouldn't drag it around with me, thinking vehicle storage, concealment, etc.
Carrying a rifle case to the car could be like a "kick me" sign on the back.
Maybe it's the 007 factor, the Kel-Tec folder in 40s&w is looking good, and cheaper than an AR. But does it even qualify as a rifle?

Can't afford too many items, somebody talk me into something...

[StarMetal]

It's the velocity hence maximum range that I've not seen an AR make. See post #? by StarMetal with it's velocity chart. Looks correct to me. However with a non gas vented bolt gun in 26” barrel I've no trouble sending a 53gr bullet at over 3,400 fps. I've shot next to two different long barrel AR's prairie dog shooting. Even after swapping ammo the bolt gun had between fifty to one hundred yards range on the AR. Swapped shooters too. None of my bolt gun loads exceeded published data.

White Oaks sells 26” AR barrels with a gas port moved 2” forward but they do not advertise an increase in velocity. Port pressure with slow powder is supposed to be the reason for moving the port forward.

Arching heavy for caliber bullets at long range works better on paper than on an unknown range moving critter. 8” twist bolt guns with 69 grain bullets do not make hits on dogs at long range over a 50 grain Blitz-King from a 12” twist barrel. It's not even a contest. All those 600 yard scores you see AR match rifles turning in with 77 or 80 grain bullets don't mean much out in the field. For one thing they take to long to get there and the critter moves out of the way of your bullet. Note you do not see a big move by small varmint shooters into heavy for caliber bullets. Sierra 65 grain Game King is one heck of a yote killer though. Which is what my 20” AR is set up to shoot along with it's sister 69 grain MK.

I have three 22 rifles. A 5.56mm AR a 223 AR and a 223 Bolt gun. All are set up for completely different task and the ammo for them is not interchangeable to the point where most of it will not even chamber in another rifle. Bolt gun for instance gets neck sized cases that will not chamber in either AR. I do get to use the same high price match grade dies and all that prep equipment but the ammo must be labeled as to what rifle it shoots in. If I shoot cases sized to fit the 223 rifles in the old 5.56mm rifle groups open way up. You can have a 1 and a ¼ inch rifle or a 2 1/2” shotgun. I've never checked to see what rounds interchange since it's a moot issue. That's what ammo cans with stickers are for.

I did purchase a 1,000 piece box of Hornady once fired cases for $50 dollars off reloadersauction dot com this winter. That right there is a reason to shoot 223 rilfes.
22 bullets are cheap and cast boollets can be made in a years suply from one pot of lead. ;)

Never have set up on the 500 yard line at Effingham , Illinois with my 20" barrel AR with 69gr MK's against my Rem 700 26" with 50 grain blitz-Kings. Only run irons or a 1x X 3x Weaver on the AR while I have a 6 x 24X on my bolt gun. But the trigger pull alone would be a game breaker.


My load for my 26 inch barreled Model 70 Win Varminter is the 53 grain Hornady with 4895 to a measured velocity of 3300 fps. So I agree with you there. Now I have a bone stock pre ban Colt HBAR with the 7 twist. All I mainly done was shot prairie dogs out west and groundhogs back east with it. Now I hunted with friends and those friends exclusively always had 22-250's. I was not at much a handicap with my two 223's. Now I can tell you that the 69 grain Sierra shoots much better then you depicted. I was also one of the first to report back to Sierra on that bullet. I couldn't believe how flat that bullet shot in my Colt. There is a fellow over on Accurate forums that also has a Colt HBAR and man oh days you shoot see his long range groups! Only thing he done thought was put a free float forearm on his....and a scope of course. Another thing I am trying to convey is that my HBAR and the other fellow's both have the 5.56 chamber. You had better believe the 5.56 chamber can be made to shoot. Not as good as the match chambers, but still very well. My one 22-250 friend had lots to say when he saw my HBAR perform one day. He was at the time against "assault rifles". I changed his mind there. Anyways after some very long range groundhog kills here is what he had to say. He said he was impressed how flat it shot. Was impressed how much damage it done at distance. Impressed at "how fast" it got to the target. He complained about the muzzle blast (they have a flash hider on them and it increases the noise).

All I can say is if anyone was persuaded by some past posts not to buy an AR 15 in 223 or with a NATO chamber....don't be. They shoot much better then said.

Gabby I'm not saying AR's aren't durable and long lasting. I'm just sayin that the longer barrels are a strain on the upper receiver thread extension and barrel nut system that most don't realize. I'm also not saying that using such long barrel that you are going to break that threaded portion in a few shots. In fact I don't think that you will break it.

[mike in co]

It's the velocity hence maximum range that I've not seen an AR make. See post #? by StarMetal with it's velocity chart. Looks correct to me. However with a non gas vented bolt gun in 26” barrel I've no trouble sending a 53gr bullet at over 3,400 fps. I've shot next to two different long barrel AR's prairie dog shooting. Even after swapping ammo the bolt gun had between fifty to one hundred yards range on the AR. Swapped shooters too. None of my bolt gun loads exceeded published data.

White Oaks sells 26” AR barrels with a gas port moved 2” forward but they do not advertise an increase in velocity. Port pressure with slow powder is supposed to be the reason for moving the port forward.

Arching heavy for caliber bullets at long range works better on paper than on an unknown range moving critter. 8” twist bolt guns with 69 grain bullets do not make hits on dogs at long range over a 50 grain Blitz-King from a 12” twist barrel. It's not even a contest. All those 600 yard scores you see AR match rifles turning in with 77 or 80 grain bullets don't mean much out in the field. For one thing they take to long to get there and the critter moves out of the way of your bullet. Note you do not see a big move by small varmint shooters into heavy for caliber bullets. Sierra 65 grain Game King is one heck of a yote killer though. Which is what my 20” AR is set up to shoot along with it's sister 69 grain MK.

I have three 22 rifles. A 5.56mm AR a 223 AR and a 223 Bolt gun. All are set up for completely different task and the ammo for them is not interchangeable to the point where most of it will not even chamber in another rifle. Bolt gun for instance gets neck sized cases that will not chamber in either AR. I do get to use the same high price match grade dies and all that prep equipment but the ammo must be labeled as to what rifle it shoots in. If I shoot cases sized to fit the 223 rifles in the old 5.56mm rifle groups open way up. You can have a 1 and a ¼ inch rifle or a 2 1/2” shotgun. I've never checked to see what rounds interchange since it's a moot issue. That's what ammo cans with stickers are for.

I did purchase a 1,000 piece box of Hornady once fired cases for $50 dollars off reloadersauction dot com this winter. That right there is a reason to shoot 223 rilfes.
22 bullets are cheap and cast boollets can be made in a years suply from one pot of lead. ;)

Never have set up on the 500 yard line at Effingham , Illinois with my 20" barrel AR with 69gr MK's against my Rem 700 26" with 50 grain blitz-Kings. Only run irons or a 1x X 3x Weaver on the AR while I have a 6 x 24X on my bolt gun. But the trigger pull alone would be a game breaker.

i shoot 52/53 match at 3500/3600 fps easy from a 26" bbl...with accuracy in an ar15.

if you want long range accuracy why compare to a 22 cal ar, why not a 30 cal ar..the ar10 and the sr25.
i have shot my ar10t at 600 with the ability to hit 2moa( lack of wind skills by me). 175 bergers similar load as the current 118 lr load.
lol get a jewell trigger.....just cause yuo and you guns get out shot by your ar's does not mean all ars are out shot by bolt guns.....

in 1996, john feamster( a member here) shot a 0.231.....at 200 YARDS in a br match with an ar.

when you do that with your bolt gun( in a br match) let us know.

mike in co

[MGySgt]

The bottm line here is What do you want it for? The AR platform can be made to do a lot for you.

For the SHTF purpose - I bought a 16in S&W M&P 15. I have 20 30 round mags, the rifle will shoot 1.5 MOA with the WW 5.56 ammo I bought. Have 800 round of it left - I am good for awhile!

If you want a AR long range Varmit rig - go for it. It will do it!

A CQB - it will do it.

But the 5.56 has never been a long range killer - not enough mass - it needs the HV to do it's job - Any of us that have carried it knows that at close range - It will put a big hole where it comes out - all done by MV. If I am going past 200 give me an M14!

As long as you are pleased with what you have that is all that matters.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[82nd airborne]

[QUOTE=StarMetal;929211]Gabby,



You haven't worked with enough AR 15's if you haven't seen a barrel nut or barrel come loose.

Ive lived with AR's for a long time, and not using them like we use them here, also used as clubs, crutches, window breakers, and shooting untill the barrel is red, and ive never seen the barrel nut or barrel come loose unintentionally. ive ran black on ammo on a number of occasions, as well as almost everyone else there, and i mean ABUSED some ars. never saw one come apart. this is also with a 4 lb daytime laser, 1 lb ish ir laser, wilson combat foregrip, and a giant surefire hanging off of the rail system. Im not saying anyone is wrong, and i am under experienced as far as knowlege, but i have seen ars treated rather roughly for extended periods of times without failure. as for the guy almost getting shot by someone he shot twice, ive never seen a hajji keep going after one GOOD hit from the 5.56mm. and i cleared saddar city after no coalition forces had entered it in 18 months. we took 16 casulties the first day, and the hajjis about 20 times that. after two resupply convoys in 12 hours, still never saw one fail, or saw someone keep going after a propper hit.
aaron

[Lloyd Smale]

same here. I dont know how many thousands of rounds ive put through my ars in 223 762x39 308 and 50 beo in civilian and military use, but I know it has to be near a million and ive never had a barrel nut come loose on mine. Other then springs getting weak a broken firing pin spring extractors wearing and the stocks comming loose ive havent had another problem. Mine have been dammed fine weapons and very reliable. Now all of mine are 20 inch or shorter though, but a couple are decorated like a christmas tree.

[82nd airborne]

I got hit with an IED a few years aga (which ended my military career) it broke the aimpoint off of its base on my m4, broke the rail system, caved in the side of my m2 .50, broke my lower back all up, slipped six discs in my neck/back, lodged shrapnel in my throat, but the m4 was still serviceable!

[StarMetal]

A student, on arrival at the Swamp phase of Ranger School, showed him his M4 and said “my barrel fell off”. His punishment for not telling an instructor at the Mountain phase (the previous phase) about the broken M4 was to be given a M240, which weights 27 lbs, as a replacement.

http://cdn1.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/368242851-tm.jpg
This all started when the barrel was installed and it was tightened a bit too much, causing the anodizing to crack

[StarMetal]

I got hit with an IED a few years aga (which ended my military career) it broke the aimpoint off of its base on my m4, broke the rail system, caved in the side of my m2 .50, broke my lower back all up, slipped six discs in my neck/back, lodged shrapnel in my throat, but the m4 was still serviceable!

Sorry to hear that happen to you. I sincerely hope you fully recovered and don't have any lingering medical after effects. Thank you for your service too.

[82nd airborne]

Sorry to hear that happen to you. I sincerely hope you fully recovered and don't have any lingering medical after effects. Thank you for your service too.

Thankyou sir, Im alright, i get paid for the pain that I am left with, but I'll never complain about it, as some of the best men to have walked this earth either never came home, or came home a lot worse than me, they are the ones who really made a sacrifice, and if the description fits any of you, i will gladly help any way i can, my hat is off to you.
aaron

[mike in co]

The bottm line here is What do you want it for? The AR platform can be made to do a lot for you.

For the SHTF purpose - I bought a 16in S&W M&P 15. I have 20 30 round mags, the rifle will shoot 1.5 MOA with the WW 5.56 ammo I bought. Have 800 round of it left - I am good for awhile!

If you want a AR long range Varmit rig - go for it. It will do it!

A CQB - it will do it.

But the 5.56 has never been a long range killer - not enough mass - it needs the HV to do it's job - Any of us that have carried it knows that at close range - It will put a big hole where it comes out - all done by MV. If I am going past 200 give me an M14!

As long as you are pleased with what you have that is all that matters.

Just my 2 cents worth.
the problem with your description is that it is military based...us civilians dont have to shoot fmj bullets........

kinda silly to stop at 200 with a properly equipt ar15.....even the mil has designated marksmen shooting 77's in "tighter" scoped ar's...and they don't stop at 200....

yep you are living in the past
and skip the m14 and just go with a nice ar10....much better than the old 14.

[StarMetal]

I have found my 7 twist Colt HBAR to be deadly as far as 375 yards on varmints......and that was with the Nam issue 55 grain FMJ cannelure bullets. So that is showing that it has enough energy and velocity left to cause a FMJ to cause lots of damage. I also believe the faster twist aids in that damage.

[Lloyd Smale]

Money just doesnt seem like enough payment for what you did and what you have to endure for the rest of your life. If there is anything i can ever personaly do JUST ASK!!!
Thankyou sir, Im alright, i get paid for the pain that I am left with, but I'll never complain about it, as some of the best men to have walked this earth either never came home, or came home a lot worse than me, they are the ones who really made a sacrifice, and if the description fits any of you, i will gladly help any way i can, my hat is off to you.
aaron

[3006guns]

My experience with the AR platform is outdated and limited, BUT....

I bought one of the first Colt AR15 sporters to hit the market back in the early 70's. Couldn't wait to get my hands on that black, racy looking beauty! Took it out to the Nevada desert and started popping away........was very impressed with the cartridge, but the gun rattled when shaken and the trigger pull-disconnector was the worst I'd ever felt. All that and, well, it was PLASTIC. I just plain didn't like it, so it was traded off not too long after. Kinda wish I'd stayed with it though, as I only paid $229.00 brand new!

[82nd airborne]

Lloyd Smale, the money dosnt make it better, just seems to justify it a little i guess, thanks for you sincere hospitality, i'll keep that in mind.

[MGySgt]

the problem with your description is that it is military based...us civilians dont have to shoot fmj bullets........

kinda silly to stop at 200 with a properly equipt ar15.....even the mil has designated marksmen shooting 77's in "tighter" scoped ar's...and they don't stop at 200....

yep you are living in the past
and skip the m14 and just go with a nice ar10....much better than the old 14.

Probably am 'Living in the Past' - My Pappy always told me 'If it wasn't broke - Don't fix it'.
A big part of survival is dealing with familiar objects - I know what to do with an M-14. I like the weight and feel of it on a longer rang sight picture.

Yes a lot of individuals load up an AR platform with all kinds of do dads with brings the weight up. Then we get into what was already discssed here - is that too much weight on the barrel nut ang receiver.

I learned to shoot long range with a tight sling. Try that with a M-16/AR-15. I have tried a tight sling in the prone and have watched the front sight move to the left when I flexed in position pulling the front of the rifle left. That can't be good for the receiver. We were later told to use a light sling, just enough for support, At 500 meter, I like a good tight position easier to get hits once you obtrain your natural point of aim. Always had trouble with the M-16 to shoot a Possible, not because the 16 wouln't do it - I just had a hard time maintaining the natural point of aim without a real tight sling.

For me - it's what works.

[StarMetal]

MGySgt (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=57)

With the heavy barreled M16's and AR15's you don't have that sling problem and guarantee you that you don't with the free floats, which there are many in military configuration. I agree with you the first issued M16's in Nam had very very thin barrels.

I think the sights are very good on the current crop of M16's and AR15's. What's wrong with their two size aperture peep sight and the dial up drum rear sights and the square post front sight?

[mike in co]

Probably am 'Living in the Past' - My Pappy always told me 'If it wasn't broke - Don't fix it'.
A big part of survival is dealing with familiar objects - I know what to do with an M-14. I like the weight and feel of it on a longer rang sight picture.

Yes a lot of individuals load up an AR platform with all kinds of do dads with brings the weight up. Then we get into what was already discssed here - is that too much weight on the barrel nut ang receiver.

I learned to shoot long range with a tight sling. Try that with a M-16/AR-15. I have tried a tight sling in the prone and have watched the front sight move to the left when I flexed in position pulling the front of the rifle left. That can't be good for the receiver. We were later told to use a light sling, just enough for support, At 500 meter, I like a good tight position easier to get hits once you obtrain your natural point of aim. Always had trouble with the M-16 to shoot a Possible, not because the 16 wouln't do it - I just had a hard time maintaining the natural point of aim without a real tight sling.

For me - it's what works.
see you are right ..still living in tha past with past data...
they shoot 600 and 1000 with stock looking ar15's.
they free float the handguard assembly///you cannot do that with an m14...you can with an ar10.
an ar10 in match condition will out shoot an match m14 and do it longer.
i had the m1a full trick and sold it for an ar10...and never looked back.
trying a tight sling on the wrong rifle is just doing it wrong...the rest of the world shooting high power have no issues.
( there is nothing wrong with doing what works, but kinda silly to not get better by moving into the present)
dont mix tricked out short range combat/three gun rifles with long range target rifles. no one adds "stuff" to a cmp/dcm rifle in the stock mil class. even the mil recognizes the need for different rifles for different condiitions. that have full built scoped designated marksmen rifles and short range dot optics 16 carbines.......
you want to see a joke go look at springfields 16" m14 clone......

m14's shoot , but require more maintenance to stay there. almost no maintenance on an m16/ar15/ar10 by comparison. when your m14 bbl wears out, you send it to a gunsmith and wait. on an m16/ar15/ar10....you take the handguard off and replace the bbl...its about that easy.
there is no wood to warp as the day /temp/moisture content changes...tell that to your m14. a impregnated, laminated wood stock helps...but its still wood.

look at how easy it is to mount a SOLID scope mount on an ar platform and then the same on an m14.....the one that works cost you your stripper clip guide, so one advantage you had on the ar platform just went away.


mike in co

[c3d4b2]

We were later told to use a light sling, just enough for support, At 500 meter, I like a good tight position easier to get hits once you obtrain your natural point of aim. Always had trouble with the M-16 to shoot a Possible, not because the 16 wouln't do it - I just had a hard time maintaining the natural point of aim without a real tight sling.

I Shot the M 16 match twice at Perry. I will have to agree with what was reported. The accuracy was poor, the triggers were creepy (and had a bad break) and they were only kidding when they said light sling pressure, they really meant no sling pressure....

I was really glad to get back to my CMP match rifle. I did realize how much better the match rifles were over the standard military M16.

I agree the the upper and barrel nut assembly are the weakest links in the rifles design. However, I have been to a lot of matches with long barreled space guns and CMP rifles with weight under the handguard, and not seen or heard of any issues with the barrel nut or upper receivers. I have had one upper for approximately 10 years (with a heavy barrel and lead weight) and not had an issue. It is currently on it's 4th barrel. Of course these gun do not see any heavy duty or harsh environments.

When I started out shooting matches ~12 years ago I was looking at M14's because of the things I had heard about AR's. I went to my 1st match with a borrowed M1 and the gentleman assigned to help me (and keep me out of trouble) said I would be better off with an AR. He said an out of the box match AR from Rock River will shoot with a match conditioned M1A and will not have to go back t the gunsmith to be rebuilt every couple of years.

When I got down to the pits and saw what the guys were doing with the AR's I was truly amazed. One gal I was pulling a target for shot a ~2 inch sitting rapid fire group at 200 yards. Of course these were not the same AR's I had heard about. They had match barrels, better sights and better triggers. But they did open my eyes.

[MGySgt]

MGySgt (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=57)

I think the sights are very good on the current crop of M16's and AR15's. What's wrong with their two size aperture peep sight and the dial up drum rear sights and the square post front sight?

Nothing is wrong with the sights - just that the 14 (with it's extra weight) gives me a more solid sight picture.

I even liked the M16-A1 sights once I got use to adjusting them, they give a good sight picture but I wasn't and still am not as steady for longer range sights.

[MGySgt]

see you are right ..still living in tha past with past data...
they shoot 600 and 1000 with stock looking ar15's.....................


I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. What percentage of us are going to build a rifle for Camp Perry?

What percent is going to build a rifle for 3 gun?

What percent is going to buy (or build) the AR because it is a darn good weapon for plinking, maybe some varmits (ones that fly or have four legs), home defense- 2 legged varmits (adding or being able to add a flashlight or laser makes sense) and any insurgency that crops up here at home it is still going to do them justice. If they stick with the 5.56 (as long as the US forces still use it) they will be able to scrounge ammo to keep it running.

We, at least I won't, join any group against our gov, but I will defend my self and my family if someone or group attempt to do us harm.

The Average Joe isn't looking for a sniper type rifle to shoot 300 - 1000 yards. Most of us don't have an oppurtunity to shoot much past 300. How many of us have had the training to dope the wind and mirage over the field/pastures to make a hit?

I bought the 16in version because it is light, short, easy to swing, you can walk down a hallway (passageway to Marines and Sailors) and not poke evry little thing walking through your house or urban environment in the dark.

I know I can hit with it at 300 - 600, but that is not what I bought it for.

These are my reasons and justification to me why I bought it.

Mike in CO - you have different reasons and purpose for yours.

Just for the record - My last year to qualify with the M16 - I used the A2 model - sights were easier to adjust, but we were still told to use a loose sling (I always thought it was the receiver, not the barrel is why the loose sling) and my score was about the same as it had been with the A1 - mid range Expert.

I still think the M16 is an excellent battle rifle for the average Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman. They are easier to shoot accurately in the offhand or high kneeling, quick recovery for aimed 2nd or 3rd shoot if needed (keep shooting until the bad guy is on the ground - then shoot him again - even with the 7.62).

Getting long winded in my old age.

These are my thoughts from my experience - yours may be completly different.

[c3d4b2]

I always thought it was the receiver, not the barrel is why the loose sling

The barrel diameter under the hand guard has a smaller diameter than the muzzle. I belive this was so a grenade launcher could be installed.

Below is a link to a picture of the barrel profile.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=BCM-BRL-s-20+STD

[mike in co]

Nothing is wrong with the sights - just that the 14 (with it's extra weight) gives me a more solid sight picture.

I even liked the M16-A1 sights once I got use to adjusting them, they give a good sight picture but I wasn't and still am not as steady for longer range sights.

sorry...again comparing apples to oranges.

try a match ar15 for weight and say that again...they move the weight right up there.

[mike in co]

I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. What percentage of us are going to build a rifle for Camp Perry?

What percent is going to build a rifle for 3 gun?

What percent is going to buy (or build) the AR because it is a darn good weapon for plinking, maybe some varmits (ones that fly or have four legs), home defense- 2 legged varmits (adding or being able to add a flashlight or laser makes sense) and any insurgency that crops up here at home it is still going to do them justice. If they stick with the 5.56 (as long as the US forces still use it) they will be able to scrounge ammo to keep it running.

We, at least I won't, join any group against our gov, but I will defend my self and my family if someone or group attempt to do us harm.

The Average Joe isn't looking for a sniper type rifle to shoot 300 - 1000 yards. Most of us don't have an oppurtunity to shoot much past 300. How many of us have had the training to dope the wind and mirage over the field/pastures to make a hit?

I bought the 16in version because it is light, short, easy to swing, you can walk down a hallway (passageway to Marines and Sailors) and not poke evry little thing walking through your house or urban environment in the dark.

I know I can hit with it at 300 - 600, but that is not what I bought it for.

These are my reasons and justification to me why I bought it.

Mike in CO - you have different reasons and purpose for yours.

Just for the record - My last year to qualify with the M16 - I used the A2 model - sights were easier to adjust, but we were still told to use a loose sling (I always thought it was the receiver, not the barrel is why the loose sling) and my score was about the same as it had been with the A1 - mid range Expert.

I still think the M16 is an excellent battle rifle for the average Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman. They are easier to shoot accurately in the offhand or high kneeling, quick recovery for aimed 2nd or 3rd shoot if needed (keep shooting until the bad guy is on the ground - then shoot him again - even with the 7.62).

Getting long winded in my old age.

These are my thoughts from my experience - yours may be completly different.

you be talking to the wrong guy...
i own two ar10s...one a target and one a br rifle.
i own 9 ar15's....everything on your list and more. i have 2 dedicated br ar15's, a three gun, a long range( 26" bbl krieger , 1/7 twist)

and ohh you cannot buy an m14...but with the proper paper work i can buy a full auto ar15( i got no use for one)


free floated fore ends and heavy bbls are quite common. as are optics...why shoot iron sights when optics are much better( even the mil has figured that out)

why do you think we moved to the m16 ? lighter, cheaper, easier to shoot..better, more ammo per man.
an m14 shooter in nam carried 4 mags and one in the gun....total round count by the bean counters...100 in real life 95 or less. a nam era m16 came with 7 20 round mags...140 rounds, same story some carried less than the 140....133/126...but still significanly more rounds than an m14 shooter.
m14's are still used today, but more and more are being replaced with ar10's/sr25's...cause they work better longer and are cheaper to make and maintain.

you dont have to BUILD a rifle for camp perry.....you can shoot local cmp/dcm /nra matches...oh and buy the match ready rifle of the rack...at a discount for match shooters!


if your average guy does not get to shoot past 300 , as you say, then what do you need a 500 yd m14 for ??? see someone mixing apples and oranges ??

i never said an m14 was no good, what i did say was an ar10 is better....no sense comparing an ar15 to an m14..........thats apples and oranges again.
why does the mil shoot ar15/m16 at perry ??? cause they saw the light. they were getting thier colective butts beat by civilans shooting ar's over thier m14's.

next

mike in co

[missionary5155]

God morning
I wore a Pickle Suit from 71-74. I had my fill of that piece of plastic in Basic. I so badly wanted to shoot a M-14. BUT as I was an 11E Tank crewman and got to shoot real calibers at the ranges. But I sure did not want anything to do with that little black rifle. When I ETS´d I happilly continued shooting Caliber 30´s and larger. Except for one .243 Remingtom 788 I did not have any centerfire smaller than .30. Raised two sons and 1 daughter who never fired a .223 but happily fired the Caliber .30 semi-autos... so much for that "Recoil Baby Boo".
But one day about 1985 I walked into a police supply store I frequent when up north there. There in the resale rack was a Colt H-bar Match with Flash surpressure for $700. Looked 99%. Box, papers, all that stuff... Previous owner officer Never used it. So out of a wim I bought it.. still have it. Trigger was awful like all the Colts I remembered from basic... but worse as it was still near new. BUT I found out it was OK to shoot and far more acurate than I imagined. My wife liked it.. It did not rattle her to shoot it.
So now there are 3.. all set up for specific tasks. The Colt is stock.. there is one flat top with a 4-12 scope & 24 inch free floated barrel for coyotees and groundhogs when I an to lazy to go brush crawling. Another with a colapsoble stock and Halo sight.
Personally I would go with a AR-10 or one of the other companies that make a Caliber .30 AR type. They are more affordable. But the system works and a Caliber .30 will be far more versitle. Sadly the magazines are costly.. Back when I bought my first FN a mag was $5-7.. not no more. But you will never regret a caliber .30. Something gets hit with a .30 and it really gets the starch watered out fast at any range. The m4 may be a great tool for door to door... But I never had to clear a building... I had a 105mm with beehive or HP for that... But it looked to me my pump Mossy 12 guage was just as good.
So there are my ramblings.. The caliber.223 has a place.. But my caliber .30´s have a home.
Then one day then clouds were on the Horizon.

[mike in co]

ohh and as life would have it..i think the swedes got it right over 100 yrs ago.

look where we are going.....down below thirties, and up from twenties....lands you in 6.5 land.

it would still be an ar sized chassis, 6.5 in an 7.62x39 type case..........

not thirty round mags but not 20's either.....
maybe an 18 inch bbl...a bit heavier than todays ar mil bbls.

just stirring the pot.

mike in co

[StarMetal]

sorry...again comparing apples to oranges.

try a match ar15 for weight and say that again...they move the weight right up there.

I double that, apparently he has never handled a match AR15 or AR10 to compare weight. One of the main criticisms by my best friend is why should he carry a rifle that weighs as much as a M14 but only shoots the 5.56. He knows how heavy they are.

I want the match grade accuracy at distance because I shoot varmints at long distance. I also practice on long distance targets.

The boys over at the Grendel forum hardly ever shoot close distance. Almost all of them are long distance shooters and boy oh boy what that 6.5 Grendel can do.

[Storydude]

Sure you can buy a legal M1
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos10/feb/3114m14.html

22,500 dollars+stamp.

[82nd airborne]

a gent here has 3.... they are fun

[dualsport]

I'm going to do a 'trigger job' on an ar15, all generic mil-spec parts. I have the AGI how to video and a pretty good book. I've done more complicated work and pulled it off, so am confident I can follow instructions. I know a aftermarket trigger is the popular choice, but I want to learn how to just make the standard trigger better. I don't use an ar for varminting or hunting critters at all, maybe a local match for fun. Anybody doing their own ar trigger work? How'd it go? Anyone using the AGI gunsmithing videos? Mine looks pretty thourough and easy to follow. I want to keep the two stage, I like them, with a second stage maybe at 3 lbs.? Clean and smooth means more to me than just light. Who's already crossed this bridge?

[82nd airborne]

Its not too hard, i use a very fine hone. youll never get it light but you can get it pretty smooth. just keep testing it to make sure it is still functioning properly as you go, it does take some time.

[dualsport]

Thanks Aaron, and thankyou for your service and sacrifice too. I don't know how you guys do it, going down those same roads everyday, as ordered, knowing you're going to get ied'd. From all that I've heard it's like you're being used as bait. You have more cajones than I do, I couldn't do it. I never carried an M16 professionally, when I was in boot camp(Navy) we had 30-06 bolt actions, I kid you not. And very worn out 1911A1s, all just for "repelling invaders". I think we shot some .22 rimfires too. We also did a lot of marching. Anyway, my goal is to just tune up a mil spec 20" A2 type using cheap parts. I'm really cheap. Several of my fellow shooters are waiting for me to do my gun for a learning phase and then they want their triggers cleaned up. I do have some good stones to hone with and instructions. The AGI video goes beyond that, with some minor modifications to the fire control group, but no new parts. Another reason is I'm a closet survivalist (shh) and want to know my weapon inside out. The barrel coming off thing is a new one for me to worry about. Finally, one last question, ok two, when you were firing your weapon 'til the barrel got red did it continue to fire and do you think the military should go to piston systems? (That's one ?) When were you in Iraq? For what it's worth, I'm glad you lived, welcome home, a little late.

[82nd airborne]

Thankyou very much for the gratitude dual sport, thats what makes it easier! To answer your question on the red barrel, it was night time so it probably wasnt near as hot as a red barrel in the day, which i have heard of, but yes i did keep shooting for the rest of the 12 hrs. (google april, 10 2007 firefight iraq) its something like that that brings some stuff up. But anyways, im fine with the direct impengement system because as long as you take care of it, it takes care of you. the guys that activly engage in combat continuously, not just a non combat unit that gets ambushed or something, take the utmost care of their weapons and i saw only one jam during actual fighting. pretty rare if you take care of it. the piston system is probably a little more reliable if you dont take care of it, but it too will eventually malfunction with the lack of propper care. i havent messed around with the piston system much, most of what i know about it is from gun mags, which are unreliable to say the least. however it has worked for years on ak's and other systems. That said, i dont think it would be a bad idea to switch to the piston, but its not necessary. sorry to ramble. and thank you too for your service.
aaron

[mike in co]

just for the drool factor....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/other%20guys%20stuff/P1000123.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/other%20guys%20stuff/P1000124.jpg

taken in my gun room/armory/basement tonight....

mike in co

[crabo]

Soooooo, 6.5 Grendal, or 6.8 and why? This would be for hunting.

Thanks,

[82nd airborne]

i have taken deer with a 110gr out of the 6.8, does a phonominal job! cant vouch for the 6.5. I did shoot a cull buck while he was running dead away from me up a steep incline @ 102 yrds. the bullet entered at the front of the tender loins angling thru the vitals and stopped in the skin of his chest. Perfect mushroom. not too much velocity, not too little. even tho he had a jacked up rack ( a bladed tine and a main beam with a complete twist in it.) he tasted darn good.

[Moonie]

Ok, I've done all of this research and can tell you that the 6.8 drops out of the air at 300 yards and the 6.5 kills like the hammer of god at 1,000 yards... At least the Grendel folks would have you think that. Seriously the ballistics are very close to each other. 6.8 rounds are easier to find and 6.8 specific parts are cheaper than the 6.5. If you are planning on shots under 300-350 stick with the 6.8, if over that...use something MUCH bigger than either for humanely taking game, seriously.

BTW I went with 6.8, I drink no ones cool aid!

The 6.5 guys like to compare against the old spec I chamber in the fast twist barrels in 6.8 which limited the round, the new spec II chamber and 1-11" or 1-12" twists are about 200fps faster than the old spec I chamber with similar pressures.

[BD]

I've killed a truck load of critters with the 6.5 out of my old swedes. It's easy for me to believe that I could do the same out of an AR. So, How does one go about building an accurate 6.5 AR?
Who's got the accurate barrels? What kind of velocity can I get out of a 20" barrel with 120s? 140s? I have an AR in .223, and one in .450. I have an upper in the drawer ready to go.
BD

[mike in co]

I've killed a truck load of critters with the 6.5 out of my old swedes. It's easy for me to believe that I could do the same out of an AR. So, How does one go about building an accurate 6.5 AR?
Who's got the accurate barrels? What kind of velocity can I get out of a 20" barrel with 120s? 140s? I have an AR in .223, and one in .450. I have an upper in the drawer ready to go.
BD

you need to find the bolt and bbl extention...those are the two harder ones to find.

then a smilth that knows ar's.

pick a bullet weight, an oal( a 223 lower or a 308 lower)......and go from there.

design a reamer for yor combination...or use one in production.

my small group with my custom br ar10 is a 0.116..................................(308 win br)

mike in co

[Curlymaple42]

I've killed a truck load of critters with the 6.5 out of my old swedes. It's easy for me to believe that I could do the same out of an AR. So, How does one go about building an accurate 6.5 AR?
Who's got the accurate barrels? What kind of velocity can I get out of a 20" barrel with 120s? 140s? I have an AR in .223, and one in .450. I have an upper in the drawer ready to go.
BD

2500-2600fps with a 120grSMK out of my 22" barrel made by Lothar Walther. 1" groups at 150yds no problem. Building three 18" hunting 6.5Grendels right now. One for me, one for a friend, and one for a guy in AZ. The 22" is too heavy for running around in the woods up north chasing whitetails! I have a TC Encore with a 15" barrel (pistol) coming in 6.5Grendel too. Great BC's on the 6.5 bullets. 140gr is too heavy I guess. I run 120gr bullets almost exclusively. I could run lighter bullets to really zip it up. I guess the 108-107gr bullets really are the best. Will the 6.5Grendel do anything better than the 6.8SPC at Maine deer hunting ranges? Doubt it. Is the 6.5Grendel a cool sexy little round? Yup. I got a .50Beowulf too just in case bears or zombies attack. Heehee...

[crabo]

I am thinking about something with more punch for pigs than the 223, when trying to get multiple hits.

[dk17hmr]

6.8 with 110gr V-Max flat kills deer
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/Dougs9point2008.jpg

Than again so does the 223 with 55gr Nosler Ballistic tips.

[GabbyM]

I'd consider a varmint bullet as a handicap when deer hunting. I know lots of deer are taken every year with V-Max but they are varmint bullets. Nosler makes two Accubond hunting bullets for the 6.8mm. As far as I know they are the only two game hunting bullets made for the 6.8 SPC. Aside from the ones you can pour yourself.

[dk17hmr]

The 110gr was designed as a varmint bullet for the 270 WIN, which can throw that bullet at over 3400FPS. At 2700 fps it acts like a conventional hunting bullet. I shot that deer at 42 yards, the bullet exited, after destroying the lungs and heart.

Just like the 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip is used in the 300 whisper as a big game bullet. Slow them down, slows down the expansion.

Lots of companies are making 100-110gr hunting bullets for the 6.8 by the way.

[82nd airborne]

The 110gr was designed as a varmint bullet for the 270 WIN, which can throw that bullet at over 3400FPS. At 2700 fps it acts like a conventional hunting bullet. I shot that deer at 42 yards, the bullet exited, after destroying the lungs and heart.

Just like the 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip is used in the 300 whisper as a big game bullet. Slow them down, slows down the expansion.

Lots of companies are making 100-110gr hunting bullets for the 6.8 by the way.

same thing with varmint bullets in the .250 sav that were made for the 25-06. a lot of people criticized using them without ever testing them at lower velocity.

[GabbyM]

The 110gr was designed as a varmint bullet for the 270 WIN, which can throw that bullet at over 3400FPS. At 2700 fps it acts like a conventional hunting bullet. I shot that deer at 42 yards, the bullet exited, after destroying the lungs and heart.

Just like the 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip is used in the 300 whisper as a big game bullet. Slow them down, slows down the expansion.

Lots of companies are making 100-110gr hunting bullets for the 6.8 by the way.

That's interesting and surprising to hear your bullet exited. I've used V-Max in 22 and 6mm. They completely fragment even out past 500 yards. This when hitting little prairie dogs. Also Nosler 55gr ballistic tips barely get it done on Coyotes at medium ranges. While sometimes they will about blow a yote in half. Good coyote bullet though if for nothing else than they don't ricochet at all. Sure they will kill a deer but I'd not consider them ideal for that. And neither does Nosler. With the almost fifty cent per bullet price on the 6.8mm white tipped Nosler I can understand reluctance to shoot them. Where are you finding anyone making game bullets other than the white tip for the 6.8mm? Speer , Hornady or Sierra do not. Probably someone like Swift or Barnes but I've not searched the world for them. Again I'm not saying you can't kill deer with high frangible bullets. For sure tens of thousands of deer will drop DRT from Sierra Match King bullets again this fall. Just my opinion but I consider a high frangible bullet a handicap not an asset with thick skinned game like deer. I have told hunters before in person an SMK was not a good deer bullet. Only to be responded to in a hostile manner along with an exclamation of “I've killed a deer every year for 27 years with these bullets”. A statement I'm not impressed with but it was time to just nod and drop the subject.

[82nd airborne]

I definatly agree that they are not ideal, however, shot placement is key, ive seen it done with a 10/22 on severa occasions, although it isnt leagal and i dont condone it, unless you are to the point of eating your shoes and thats what you have. i dont even gun hunt anymore, generally just archerey, but i prefer large bore cast when hunting, they never fail. even when they dont expand, its still a half inch in diameter, pretty dang effective.

[dk17hmr]

Barnes has several 6.8 weight bullets that would work on well on deer and larger. 85gr -110gr X style bullets.

Nosler has the 100 and 110gr Accubond, Remington has a 100gr PSP, Seirra Prohunter in 110gr. There are a few more that the guys on the 6.8 forum talk up.

In all fairness the Accubond wasnt on the market when I shot that MI buck, had it of been I would have probably used it.....v-max worked though.

[GabbyM]

yes in your photo he didn't look like he was trying to get up.

[82nd airborne]

i bet a solid turned bullet in the 110gr range would do well with a hollow point to allow expansion.

[Lloyd Smale]

we did some testing for penetration on a bunch of differnt .22 bullets last year and believe it or not the 60 grain vmax ended up in the top 5 for penetration. they basicaly all come unraveled except for the partitions and barnes bullets but the wound channels were deaper with some then others and the vmax was one of the best if not the best varmit type .22 bullet in the tests.
That's interesting and surprising to hear your bullet exited. I've used V-Max in 22 and 6mm. They completely fragment even out past 500 yards. This when hitting little prairie dogs. Also Nosler 55gr ballistic tips barely get it done on Coyotes at medium ranges. While sometimes they will about blow a yote in half. Good coyote bullet though if for nothing else than they don't ricochet at all. Sure they will kill a deer but I'd not consider them ideal for that. And neither does Nosler. With the almost fifty cent per bullet price on the 6.8mm white tipped Nosler I can understand reluctance to shoot them. Where are you finding anyone making game bullets other than the white tip for the 6.8mm? Speer , Hornady or Sierra do not. Probably someone like Swift or Barnes but I've not searched the world for them. Again I'm not saying you can't kill deer with high frangible bullets. For sure tens of thousands of deer will drop DRT from Sierra Match King bullets again this fall. Just my opinion but I consider a high frangible bullet a handicap not an asset with thick skinned game like deer. I have told hunters before in person an SMK was not a good deer bullet. Only to be responded to in a hostile manner along with an exclamation of “I've killed a deer every year for 27 years with these bullets”. A statement I'm not impressed with but it was time to just nod and drop the subject.

[GabbyM]

we did some testing for penetration on a bunch of differnt .22 bullets last year and believe it or not the 60 grain vmax ended up in the top 5 for penetration. they basicaly all come unraveled except for the partitions and barnes bullets but the wound channels were deaper with some then others and the vmax was one of the best if not the best varmit type .22 bullet in the tests.
Another surprise.
60 grain V Max must be much stronger than the 50 grain.

Did You fellows happen to test the 65 Grain Sierra Game-King? Have a box of 500 here I'm real proud of to in theory to shoot the same load as the 69gr MK's. Have not tried them yet. Would be a real turn to find a 60 grain V-Max out penetrate the 65 Game-King. Then Speer makes the 70 grain bullet that you'd think would sink in.

[Lloyd Smale]

didnt test that one but one that was suprising was the 64 grain winchester. i figured it would be a good bullet for deer and it came apart worse then some of the 50 grain bullets. Another failure in my opinion were the barns bullets. we tested two differnt one and neither gave realiable expansion. Out of our testing we determined that out of the bullets we tested the partitions were hands down the bullet wed take hunting for anything over 50 lbs. Buddy later shot a couple pigs with them and they did great. both of us shot whitetail does later and they did good on them too.

[Storydude]

just for the drool factor....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/other%20guys%20stuff/P1000123.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/other%20guys%20stuff/P1000124.jpg

taken in my gun room/armory/basement tonight....

mike in co

Plum Crazy lowers?

[mike in co]

yes....20 of them well in THAT stack.........lol

[Storydude]

At least you got yours it seems....:rolleyes:

GunsFX or straight from the boys?

[mike in co]

didnt test that one but one that was suprising was the 64 grain winchester. i figured it would be a good bullet for deer and it came apart worse then some of the 50 grain bullets. Another failure in my opinion were the barns bullets. we tested two differnt one and neither gave realiable expansion. Out of our testing we determined that out of the bullets we tested the partitions were hands down the bullet wed take hunting for anything over 50 lbs. Buddy later shot a couple pigs with them and they did great. both of us shot whitetail does later and they did good on them too.

lloyd,
i do not hunt, but use dto shoot the win 64 in three gun matches. in one match we had the option of taking a blind hot at a bad guy behind a pallet. just 1" pine. if you take the shot, you loos time but gain points...if you hit well...the a zone aint big.
i took the shot...and was given an "a" hit..........cause the 1 inch hole in the target was very impressive from a 223. the bullet went into the wood as 22 and came out big....then hit the target...... worked well in my "paper" world.
i quit using them because the lead nose would ocassionally ding and cause a jam. i think a full m4 set of feed ramps might fix that issue. cheap bullet and shot well.


mike in co

[Down South]

What do you guys think of this scope on an AR platform?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=162772&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=657

[mike in co]

What do you guys think of this scope on an AR platform?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=162772&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=657

depends on what you plan on doing with the riflle.

i have a similar 3-12x on a 30mm tube.

scopes are not "quick" on target at short range, dots and iron sights are quicker.

but if a target/hunting midrange gun.....not a bad scope.

mike in co

[frank505]

Emma has a Loopy 1x4 Mark AR series on her. Seems to be good scope, holds zero, tracks to the adjustments which are a realistic .5 minute . For me like a scope says something. I have two rifles with conventional mounted scopes and a scout rifle. Other than those, I shoot good irons.

[frank505]

Lloyd;
I would really like to see the tests of the 223 bullets if you could ,please,please.

Thank you Frank

[Moonie]

Down South: This is the one I'm planning on putting on my 6.8 SPC upper I'm building:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=517504

[mike in co]

might i suggest, if one is to build a 700-1000 dollar rifle, one should spend close to the same on the scope, based on planned useage of the rifle.

so more like $500 than $200.........................

there are exceptions, but few.


mike in co

[Moonie]

mike in co, obviously you and I have different priorities, I prefer value over bragging rights. Nikon makes a great scope, the 4-12 40mm with BDC reticle will fit perfectly with the rifle I'm building. Have you actually read about the scope I posted? I've had lots of different scopes in the last 25 years including several that cost close to $1K. Me? I'd rather put the extra $300 into reloading equipment and supplies for the rifle, as long as the scope was good enough.

Thanks for the advice however.

[mike in co]

i do not know what the recoil will be like on your 6.8, but be fore warned that ar's "recoil" in both directions......initial recoil and carrier group slaming forward.
my ar10 just killed a redfield( oem denver) target scope. great scope but was not designed for double recoil. on 223's its not a big issue, but as you move up in bullet weight/case size, it does matter.
so spend what you want...i( have 40 dollar 2-7 ncstar's on milsurplus rifles), but i do suggest you look for ar platform scopes or higher end scopes.

most scope makers make several levels of quality/cost product lines. in nikon, its monarch, buckmaster and then prostaff...thier lowest line.

it does not mean its not a good scope and that it will not work, its just if you put money into a great gun why not a great scope instead of a good scope..??
just me...



mike in co

[BD]

I've found that there are quite a few scopes in the $300 range that will work for most general hunting. I have a leupy Ulitmate Slam muzzle loader scope on my .450 Bushmaster. I think it was $259. The BDC reticule is right on using the 250 grain FTX @ 2,200 fps and it's held up to it's first 700 rounds with no issues. 300 yards is the practical limit of the cartridge so the 3x9 optics work just fine.

IMHO when scoping an AR "thumper", the warranty is an important consideration.

It's when you get into longer range shooting that the cost of usable glass goes high. Trying to find a FFP mil/mil scope over 10X with quality glass under $1,000 is certainly a challenge.

BD

[Down South]

but i do suggest you look for ar platform scopes or higher end scopes.
The Nikon M-223 Rifle Scope 3-12x 42mm Side Focus BDC 600 Reticle is specifically designed for the AR-15.
This isn’t actually what I would classify as a “Cheap” Scope. It does carry a lifetime warranty even if you are not the original owner.
I too have several expensive scopes. I have five Leopold’s with several of them being over 1K. I do also have another Nikon 4-12X, I think that's the correct magnification, with the AO. It held up well on several belted magnums that I have. I retired it down to my .17 HMR for squirrel hunting. It still will handle the recoil of the mags though. I can't speak of the double recoil that you mentioned for the older Nikon though.
I’m thinking the Nikon M-223 will work well with the 16” barreled carbine W/the .55 gr bullet at 3240 fps. It shouldn’t be hard to either match or come close to that velocity hand loading with the 55 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet.

Here is an interesting link. Of course it is a Nikon Ad but it is still somewhat impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IZUfHYyZLc

[mike in co]

yes i did not mention the 223 specific ar scopes because he is building a 6.8......
but yes there are some good things on the market for 223 ar's

mike in co

[Moonie]

Recoil of the 6.8 is much closer to the .223/5.56 then the .308/7.62. Most report no loss of on target sight picture.

[dk17hmr]

I have a Bushnell 5-15x40 on my 6.8. On 15 power I can hold on target through recoil at 50 yards..........not much recoil there.

I am a fan of Mueller scopes, they are good quality budget scopes. I just bought a 4.5-14x40 30mm with target turrets and sunshade for about $145 to my door, I plan on putting it on my 22-250 AI once I get it set up.

I have Mueller scopes on several rifles and had a 4-16x on my 6.8 before I got the Bushnell with no issue of zero shifting, even when cranking the turrets around to hit the 500 yard and 650 yard gongs.

I also have a Millett DMS-1 on my 300 whisper, which is a great "tactical" scope 1-4x 30mm tube.

Do yourself a favor when you get a scope get a one peice scope mount, I have an Armalite 1" mount and a Burris P.E.R.P 30mm mount. Both are great, the Burris is better looking though.

[GT27]

I wouldn't trust my life with any AR platform in existence IMHO,give me a CheyTac, or Rem 700, in .308 or .338 Lapua, and 500-1000 yards distance any day!Yes I do own a AR also,fun range gun,but to me that's all it is... GT27

[shdwlkr]

I am real late in finding this thread but

Those M-16's back in the day (60-70's) were a real pain period I used to have to care for 70 of them.
As to the amount of ammo you can carry as compared to the M 14, remember back then it was many times spray and pray, you burn up a lot of ammo that way.

The pill you put out the barrel was only 55 grains and through a 1 in 12 twist barrel at that, cleaning was not recommended at first then some idiot realized that this was needed. Don't let a few drops of water get in the barrel and then fire nasty things happened and yes we destroyed a few 16's showing individuals the down side to trying this.

We even had a few Ak's to have fun with and see what they could do simply amazing firing corroded ammo with water in the barrel and it still worked.

I just recently, actually last winter bought a black rifle again. I got a good deal on a used one and had to do some cleaning and such to get it work but it does what I want. I am not a into a real accurate AR platform shooter just enjoying shooting targets and remembering some fun from the past. This one is A2, Hbar, chrome lined barrel, preban 5.56mm and is what I wanted. I am happy with it now that I have the bugs worked out. Who ever had it before me didn't realize how to clean it or had a heck of a lot of ammo to get rid of before they let go of the rifle.

If I wanted a long range military rifle it would be the M 14 or Garand I used both and enjoyed both and one nice thing is you hit something with one of these rounds they stay down not always true with that 55 grain pill. I don't think of the AR's as anything but a 200-250 yard tool.

Now I also have a 22 LR in AR platform and just got my son one in M4 platform what fun to shoot and it doesn't break the bank if we shoot several hundred rounds.

My first two are both A2 platform as I like it best but that little M4 is winning me over real fast.

As to manufacturer I think it boils down to who you like and how much you want to spend. I have seen them all over the price range.

If I were thinking of a SHTF firearm I like the ideal of 50bmg for that purpose and since I can't afford one I guess I don't expect to see a SHTF environment. Besides if this really happens food, water, shelter will most likely be more important than having that rifle and just how are you going to carry all that ammo you will need with you?

Ever watch that show doomsday preppers I think it is called there is no way most of the stuff those folks have that they will ever get out of their neighborhoods with it and get to that remote place of theirs before all heck breaks loose.

Do I think things are going to change in America? If you have been watching they already are and not for the good of the people either. Freedom is just signature away from being non existent in all phases of our lives not just the ones we have let them take away already. The country I grew up in and served for doesn't exist anymore and may never exist again in my life time.

My most interesting question is will there be an election this fall and if so will it anything for the average American in a positive way?

Sorry for wandering off topic

[paul h]

I've had a couple of AR's, first was a armalite M4, never a bobble or malfunction, I just didn't care for the muzzleblast of the short barrel and the chrome barrel gave up a bit of accuracy.. Next was a Rock River Predator Persuit. Again perfect function, 20" tube toned the blast right down and accuracy was as good as my Rem 700 varmint 223. Trouble is I found the gun nose heavy.

I have a stripped AR lower, so the next AR is going to be a custom upper from WOA with their 18 1/2" SDM barrel with a hogue ff tube, and I'm still debating the configuration of the lower, but likely hogue grip, Magpul ACS stock and a 2 stage trigger.

[connecticut-yankee]

Does anyone have knowledge of Windham Weaponry?? I know the owner used to own Bushmaster.

Thanks

[340six]

I am real late in finding this thread but

Those M-16's back in the day (60-70's) were a real pain period I used to have to care for 70 of them.
As to the amount of ammo you can carry as compared to the M 14, remember back then it was many times spray and pray, you burn up a lot of ammo that way.

The pill you put out the barrel was only 55 grains and through a 1 in 12 twist barrel at that, cleaning was not recommended at first then some idiot realized that this was needed. Don't let a few drops of water get in the barrel and then fire nasty things happened and yes we destroyed a few 16's showing individuals the down side to trying this.

We even had a few Ak's to have fun with and see what they could do simply amazing firing corroded ammo with water in the barrel and it still worked.

I just recently, actually last winter bought a black rifle again. I got a good deal on a used one and had to do some cleaning and such to get it work but it does what I want. I am not a into a real accurate AR platform shooter just enjoying shooting targets and remembering some fun from the past. This one is A2, Hbar, chrome lined barrel, preban 5.56mm and is what I wanted. I am happy with it now that I have the bugs worked out. Who ever had it before me didn't realize how to clean it or had a heck of a lot of ammo to get rid of before they let go of the rifle.

If I wanted a long range military rifle it would be the M 14 or Garand I used both and enjoyed both and one nice thing is you hit something with one of these rounds they stay down not always true with that 55 grain pill. I don't think of the AR's as anything but a 200-250 yard tool.

Now I also have a 22 LR in AR platform and just got my son one in M4 platform what fun to shoot and it doesn't break the bank if we shoot several hundred rounds.

My first two are both A2 platform as I like it best but that little M4 is winning me over real fast.

As to manufacturer I think it boils down to who you like and how much you want to spend. I have seen them all over the price range.

If I were thinking of a SHTF firearm I like the ideal of 50bmg for that purpose and since I can't afford one I guess I don't expect to see a SHTF environment. Besides if this really happens food, water, shelter will most likely be more important than having that rifle and just how are you going to carry all that ammo you will need with you?

Ever watch that show doomsday preppers I think it is called there is no way most of the stuff those folks have that they will ever get out of their neighborhoods with it and get to that remote place of theirs before all heck breaks loose.

Do I think things are going to change in America? If you have been watching they already are and not for the good of the people either. Freedom is just signature away from being non existent in all phases of our lives not just the ones we have let them take away already. The country I grew up in and served for doesn't exist anymore and may never exist again in my life time.

My most interesting question is will there be an election this fall and if so will it anything for the average American in a positive way?

Sorry for wandering off topic

My Colt SP1 is 1-12" and may just shoot the 55's good but is a classic and uses an old scope i had since i got the rifle back when. The old Colt scope that goes in the handle hole.
The Match grade 20" H bar likes 68-70's and is better than i shoot and eats the 55's up
I wonder if the chrome barrel would hold it back if i was a serious shooter
Few test i tried were with just 55-70 grain SP's
The 6.8 is a thought

[btroj]

A properly set up AR can shoot quite well to 600 yards, and even beyond.
The Army, Marines, and many civilians do very well at Perry each year wi the black rifle.
When I decided to shoot Highpower I didn't even consider anything but an AR. Just so easy to Get shooting well.
My distinguished badge tells me all I need to know about what an AR can do out to 600.