Rework LC '43 ammo for M1 Garand

[smoked turkey]

My son gave me a couple of boxes of 30-06 military ammo marked LC '43. I was told this particular lot was used for machine gun ammo. I have disassembled this in order to knock out the corrosive primers. The powder charge by my digital scale averaged 50.8 gr of a stick type powder. The bullets are 150 gr FMJ with a cannelure. The c.o.a.l. was 3.33". I want to replace the primers with Win LR and reuse the powder and bullet. However, I had planned on a load of 46 grains instead of the original 50.8 which seemed too hot for my M1 Garand. I think what I am doing has been done many times before, but I didn't want to assume anything. Is my plan a good one? If not I would like to know.
I have knocked out about 6 of the old primers with my RCBS universal depriming die and have bent and lastly broken the decapping pin. I considered replacing the pin with a cut off nail, but thought I would call RCBS tomorrow to see if they offer a heavy duty pin. I also have a primer pocket swage to remove the crimp which I plan to do after the old primers are knocked out. This seems like a lot to do in order to get two boxes of brass to work with but I enjoy the process. I just need to be sure I am on the right track. Thanks for any and all comments.

[spqrzilla]

I wouldn't reuse the powder myself, I'd load anew with a known powder. There is not enough powder at issue to be worth trying to reuse it.

[NuJudge]

I think your plan is fine. Everything I've read says there was no different M2 Ball Specification for machineguns. You are reducing the powder charge by roughly 10% to avoid surprises. Winchester primers seem to produce higher pressures than even some magnum primers, but you are reducing your powder charge by 10%. The military used (and still uses) powders with non-standardized burn rates, so they used more or less to bring the bullet up to the specification muzzle velocity. I've seen 4895 from WWII vintage ammo be as slow as 4064. I never found any that was faster than usual, but I'm sure it was out there.

You have encountered crimped in primers. The are sometimes very hard on decapping pins. Several manufacturers make decapping dies that are much stronger than the usual, and if you're going to do this often, seek one out:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=136543

I've also had trouble with decapping WWII US brass because of off-center flash holes. The flash holes being way off center did not seem to cause trouble with accuracy.

[nicholst55]

If it was me, I'd just shoot them and then reload the brass. Corrosive primers are NOT a big deal; just thoroughly clean the rifle with water after firing, then clean and oil as normal.

I'd be more worried about possible split cases due to age than I would the primers, personally.

[Lead Fred]

I would have stuffed them in my Garand, and made a pile of LC 43 cases

[MtGun44]

I sure wouldn't worry about the corrosive primers. These rifles were made to run with
corrosive. If you wipe out the bore with windex on a patch about 3 patches, wipe down
the bolt face and then clean the gas cyl and piston with a wipe of windex, all followed by
your favorite oil/solvent like Hoppe's #9, you will be good to go.

If you insist on replacing the primers, leave the powder alone, it was fine and unless it
is clumped, rusty looking or otherwise abnormal looking, put it back and go. It is not too
hot for the Garand, it was made for the Garand. M2 Ball is M2 Ball, no different specs.

Bill

[wiljen]

I gotta go with the just shoot it crowd. Mercuric primers, I would dispose of. Corrosive primers are only an issue if you don't clean the gun properly after firing. I'd shoot em and enjoy em. Come to think of it, I have. SL 43 in my case.

[smoked turkey]

Thanks to all for the very informative replies. Yes I am thinking I should have shot em as most stated and went from there. Unfortunately I have done the deed of pulling the bullets and dumping the powder in a baggie for future use. I do think getting the brass prepared for the new primers is more work than its worth. Knowing how I am when it comes to empty brass I am sure I won't discard it. I'll crawl around on my hands and knees looking for a single. LOL.

[NickSS]

I personally use a small 1/16" pin punch and a 3/8 socket to decap crimped in primers. It works fast and the punch does not break like decapping pins in RCBS dies do. I have a Dillon pocket swagging tool so getting rid of the drips is easy too. I have used this method on several thousand GI cases and it works fast and easy. I too would just fire the stuff off and then go from there. I would anneal the brass as it may have age hardened before reloading them though

[smoked turkey]

NickSS: Thanks for the idea of the pin punch and socket. I'll look into that. You mentioned annealing the brass. This may be a question for another thread, but I read an article on annealing in handloader I think it was not too long back. They were talking about using some kind of marking pen on the upper part of the brass that reacted to heat. I have only used a propane torch and stood the cases in a pan of water, then quenched them at a certain time. I don't think that is scientific enough to insure consistency. Do you or anyone have a not too expensive or involved method of proper annealing because I agree that the cases probably need it.

[Multigunner]

Thanks to all for the very informative replies. Yes I am thinking I should have shot em as most stated and went from there. Unfortunately I have done the deed of pulling the bullets and dumping the powder in a baggie for future use. I do think getting the brass prepared for the new primers is more work than its worth. Knowing how I am when it comes to empty brass I am sure I won't discard it. I'll crawl around on my hands and knees looking for a single. LOL.

I'd dump the powder, not because of any fears of damaging the rifle but just due to the normal degradation of consistency I'd expect from powder that old regardless of how well stored.
I only shoot to obtain the best possible accuracy I can get, so using even slightly degraded old powder is just a waste of new primers and good bullets. With old powder I'd never trust the results I would get, and it would just be expensive plinking.

Bullets so long as they aren't corroded remain as good as new, and the same is usually true of cases, but primers and powder degrade over time. The old ammo may still fire but its unlikely to give optimum performance.

[riverwalker76]

I sure wouldn't worry about the corrosive primers. These rifles were made to run with
corrosive. If you wipe out the bore with windex on a patch about 3 patches, wipe down
the bolt face and then clean the gas cyl and piston with a wipe of windex, all followed by
your favorite oil/solvent like Hoppe's #9, you will be good to go.

If you insist on replacing the primers, leave the powder alone, it was fine and unless it
is clumped, rusty looking or otherwise abnormal looking, put it back and go. It is not too
hot for the Garand, it was made for the Garand. M2 Ball is M2 Ball, no different specs.

Bill

X2 I agree, and will add ......

If the powder has white crystals in it .... throw it away. I have seen some older powder that had saltpeter added, and saltpeter breaks down ... similar to dynamite.

[Uncle R.]

Did I miss something here?
Are you removing live primers?
I can't recommend it - especially if they're crimped in.

[smoked turkey]

Thanks to all for the thoughtful insights. Just to let you know I have kept the powder because it still has a good smell and color to it and it is not clumped. I plan to load only a couple of rounds with say 46 grains and shoot it in my Remington 700 prior to using it in the M1. I may run it over the chrono just to verify everything. I called RCBS about the broken decapping pins in my universal decapping die and learned that they sell a heavy duty unit made more for decapping crimped in primers. It is their model 87585, while the standard one which I have is 87580. The reviews for the heavy duty unit on Midway is mixed, but generally positive. The cost is about $17. RCBS is sending me replacement pins at no charge. I think I'll try the pin punch idea before I spring for another decapper.
I also read the reviews on the case annealing setup Midway sells. No doubt it works but I think it is a little too much $ and I can make something that will work for virtually nothing. I do wish I knew where to get the heat sensitive marking fluid they sell in the kit. It would make it more consistent from case to case. I'll be loading some trial loads soon. If the results are either good or bad I'll report back in case anyone is interested.

[Linstrum]

Hang on a second, if this is original 1943 ammo, the powder is going on 67 years old and smokeless powder often develops a faster burn rate when it gets old. It doesn't get stronger, just faster, and it could get a little dicey with the pressure time curve required for the Garand to keep from tearing out the extractor grooves. I have shot ammo loaded in 1939 no problem in a Mosin-Nagant bolt rifle, but a bolt rifle doesn't require a special pressure-time rate to work.

What I'd do is check the brass base where the extractor claw pulled on it and see how it is holding up. If the brass looks okay and the primers don't show excessive flattening, then go ahead and make those cartridges empty – Garands do that real good!

With corrosive primers, you can't wait until tomorrow to clean the barrel, so be darned sure to WASH your bore when you get back from shooting. The offending material that destroys the barrel is potassium chloride and it cannot be neutralized – it has to be washed out with water.

I don't recommend punching out live primers. I made an aluminum adapter to hold .30-06 cartridges in my 12 gauge shotgun and I pop old corrosive primers in my shotgun because it is easier to wash out than any of my .30-06 rifles. I haven't run across any surplus U.S. ammo with corrosive priming since about 1980, though.

rl806

[Maven]

" I do wish I knew where to get the heat sensitive marking fluid they sell in the kit. It would make it more consistent from case to case. "

smoked turkey,The temp. indicating crayon or liquid is known as Tempillac (sp?) or Tempil Stick (sp?) respectively. You can usually find them where welding supplies are sold. Btw, a propane torch can be used to anneal your LC '43 brass (careful not to overdo it) as can an alcohol lamp.

[zuke]

Use a LEE hand de capping punch to knock out the old primer's.
Sound's like your dumping the corrosive primer's for non corrosive one's.
Your powder reduction sound's good.
Don't forget all nay sayer's, the creosote water proof sealant pretty much glued the bullet into the case neck.
After pulling the bullet and breaking the bond they WILL be of lesser pressure.

[Grapeshot]

My son gave me a couple of boxes of 30-06 military ammo marked LC '43. I was told this particular lot was used for machine gun ammo. I have disassembled this in order to knock out the corrosive primers. The powder charge by my digital scale averaged 50.8 gr of a stick type powder. The bullets are 150 gr FMJ with a cannelure. The c.o.a.l. was 3.33". I want to replace the primers with Win LR and reuse the powder and bullet. However, I had planned on a load of 46 grains instead of the original 50.8 which seemed too hot for my M1 Garand. I think what I am doing has been done many times before, but I didn't want to assume anything. Is my plan a good one? If not I would like to know.
I have knocked out about 6 of the old primers with my RCBS universal depriming die and have bent and lastly broken the decapping pin. I considered replacing the pin with a cut off nail, but thought I would call RCBS tomorrow to see if they offer a heavy duty pin. I also have a primer pocket swage to remove the crimp which I plan to do after the old primers are knocked out. This seems like a lot to do in order to get two boxes of brass to work with but I enjoy the process. I just need to be sure I am on the right track. Thanks for any and all comments.



From an old Ordnance guy. M2 Ball was designed to be used with the '03 and Garand. The M1 Ball was what we used in WW1 but was determined to be better suited for Machine Gun ammo as it fired a 173 grain bullet. Eventuall they used up the stocks of M1 Ball and discontinued making it.

M2 Ball would work just fine. Go ahead with your plan on reusing the pulled down powders.

You might consider re annealing the brass if you are concerned about case splitting due to age.

[koehn,jim]

Just me but I always shoot some wd40 in the empty case and let it sit overnight before pounding out live primers. Please wear eye protection and hearing protection too. Once in a while it gets noisy. Good luck

[smoked turkey]

Maven, thanks for the tip on heat sensitive markers at welding shops. I will look there. I just think it would produce a more consistent annealing process than using a timed approach to heating the brass with a torch. Although I understand that 5-6 seconds on a piece of brass turning about 200 rpm is about right prior to quenching. In the past I have always applied heat for a longer period, so I apparently over did the heat some. I am thinking of making a case holder out of a dowel with a hole drilled in the center to accomodate 30-06 cases. I plan to drill a hole in the bottom of the dowel for a small bolt that I chuck into my battery drill at lowest speed setting. After heating approx 6 seconds I will dump the case into a tray of water. The heat marker would bring some control into the process.
As an additional note to the primer removal on the LC 43 cases, I have deprimed a few cases, and then ran them over the RCBS primer pocket swaging die, and them used my chamfering tool on the primer pocket. After all that I find the primers are still very hard to seat. Apparently I am not getting the crimp fully removed. I am about ready to chuck the idea of punching out the old primers. I should have shot the ammo and them cleaned up the Garand from the corrosive primers in the first place. Live and learn I guess!

[Maven]

"As an additional note to the primer removal on the LC 43 cases, I have deprimed a few cases, and then ran them over the RCBS primer pocket swaging die, and them used my chamfering tool on the primer pocket. After all that I find the primers are still very hard to seat."



smoked turkey, Although I have the RCBS tool, I seldom use it as I run into the same problem you did. I now use a primer pocket uniforming tool (large rifle size) available from Sinclair International, Midway USA, et al. to clean, uniform and remove most of the crimp. Sometimes, I have to lightly chamfer the pocket as well. Btw, some of the primer pocket uniformers can be chucked in an elec. drill or drill press, which makes the job much easier. Btw, I once had a quantity of new WCC '45 ammo, which I pulled down. Although the powder was in excellent shape, I didn't use it. Upon reloading with CB's, I got a number of split necks, but after annealing with a propane torch, the problem was eliminated.

[madsenshooter]

Maven, thanks for the tip on heat sensitive markers at welding shops. I will look there. I just think it would produce a more consistent annealing process than using a timed approach to heating the brass with a torch. Although I understand that 5-6 seconds on a piece of brass turning about 200 rpm is about right prior to quenching. In the past I have always applied heat for a longer period, so I apparently over did the heat some. I am thinking of making a case holder out of a dowel with a hole drilled in the center to accomodate 30-06 cases. I plan to drill a hole in the bottom of the dowel for a small bolt that I chuck into my battery drill at lowest speed setting. After heating approx 6 seconds I will dump the case into a tray of water. The heat marker would bring some control into the process.
As an additional note to the primer removal on the LC 43 cases, I have deprimed a few cases, and then ran them over the RCBS primer pocket swaging die, and them used my chamfering tool on the primer pocket. After all that I find the primers are still very hard to seat. Apparently I am not getting the crimp fully removed. I am about ready to chuck the idea of punching out the old primers. I should have shot the ammo and them cleaned up the Garand from the corrosive primers in the first place. Live and learn I guess!

For annealing uniformly I use the base and lockring from the Lee Trimmer set. The base acts as a heatsink, and I slowly rotate the neck/shoulder in the flame of a propane torch until it's the right color, then dunk the brass, along with the base and lockring, in a bucket of water. I use a battery powered drill/screwdriver to turn the case. I can't see putting a whole lot of money into something that's really pretty simple.

[smoked turkey]

madsenshooter thanks for the info on the Lee lockring. I don't have one of those but I can see it would work. I am with you in that I too think it can be successfully done without spending a lot of money. Where I am right now is that I don't have a lot of old military brass so I hate to spend a lot of money on equipment to remove the crimp on the primer pocket. I would consider it if I had a large amount to do.
Maven I am not glad you had trouble on removal of the crimp on primer pockets but I am glad to know I am not the only one. If I could find a large quantity of military brass I would be willing to invest in a better tool than the RCBS for removal of the crimp. The RCBS is cumbersome to use anyway, at least for me.

[zuke]

When I had a bunch of .223 brass to work up I made a primer pocket crimp tool out of an piece of screwdriver.
I filed 4 seperate cutting edge's on it like a Philips screwdriver but more to one side.
Cut it off about 2 inch's long.
I used it in a drill and just held the case in my left hand and gave the drill a fast squeeze of the trigger.
Done in a couple second's.

[Multigunner]

From an old Ordnance guy. M2 Ball was designed to be used with the '03 and Garand. The M1 Ball was what we used in WW1 but was determined to be better suited for Machine Gun ammo as it fired a 173 grain bullet. Eventuall they used up the stocks of M1 Ball and discontinued making it.

M2 Ball would work just fine. Go ahead with your plan on reusing the pulled down powders.

You might consider re annealing the brass if you are concerned about case splitting due to age.

During WW1 they found that the original .30-06 ball ammunition when fired from the Browning 1917 MG did not come close to reaching its maximum calculated range. They had not had a range sufficiently long enough to fully test the 150 grain .30-06 and had extrapolated its trajectory based on available information, which turned out to be misleading.
In fact they found the 150 grain .30-06 to have the poorest long range indirect fire performance of any major ammunition type used in WW1.
It was fine for use in the infantry rifle, just not suited to the ultra long range Machinegun fire deployed during that war.

The M1 Ball had been intended to replace the original 06 load for all weapons in that caliber, but due to its much greater range few if any of the existing rifle ranges had enough free distance beyond the butts to avoid danger of overshoots that could be hazardous to the public.
The M2 ball (with 152 gr bullet due to deleting some lighter alloying metals giving it a nearly pure lead core) was then developed to provide a rifleman's cartridge. It was as accurate as it needed to be at any range a rifleman would be expected to engage the enemy, and it kicked a lot less than the M1 ball.

M1 ball had always been intended for MG use, it was decided later that it was not as well suited to use in the infantry rifle, though it occasionally would be used in rifles.

[jonk]

Everything you are planning on doing is fine; however, I've shot a lot of old ammo. Never LC 43, but DEN 43. Never bothered with pulling bullets or powders (I did check a few to make sure the powder in that lot was ok) and went at it.

These were loaded with 4895 (if stick) or something very close to it. That's a very stable powder. My DEN 43 chronographs right at M2 spec.

Since you've done the deed and pulled them, I would reduce to 46-7 gr and go for it. Let us know how it turns out.

[duck hollow pete]

Is W.W. II m.g. ammo loaded hotter? DON'T KNOW! I'm a US Navy Vietman Vet Amphibs 67-71. During my 1st go everything we has was ww2, we where always told that .30cal. mg ammo was ok in are M1s in a pinch and the thompson ok in the 911's the same because it was hotter. Is it? DON'T KNOW! My dad was a ww2 Navy Vet (gunnersmate) he always said the same thing. Is it loaded hotter? DON'T KNOW! But I do know back in the late 70's a veteran highpower competitor showedup on the line at our highpower match here in western pa. with three guys from his club to try their hand at highpower. Now the one shared his M1nm and his match handloads the other two had a G.I. Issue M1 and what turned out to be WW2 M.G blacktip (AP's), the one guy's dad brought back, When that M1 fired,one bullet went through the steel target carrier at 6ooyrds, that extractor yanked them bad boys out and flung'em all over the place and bent the rims on every last one of them. Were they loaded hotter? DON'T KNOW! BUT SURE HAD ALL THE EARMARKS!!!!!

[duck hollow pete]

Is W.W. II m.g. ammo loaded hotter? DON'T KNOW! I'm a US Navy Vietman Vet Amphibs 67-71. During my 1st go everything we has was ww2, we where always told that .30cal. mg ammo was ok in are M1s in a pinch and the thompson ok in the 911's the same because it was hotter. Is it? DON'T KNOW! My dad was a ww2 Navy Vet (gunnersmate) he always said the same thing. Is it loaded hotter? DON'T KNOW! But I do know back in the late 70's a veteran highpower competitor showedup on the line at our highpower match here in western pa. with three guys from his club to try their hand at highpower. Now the one shared his M1nm and his match handloads the other two had a G.I. Issue M1 and what turned out to be WW2 M.G blacktip (AP's), the one guy's dad brought back, When that M1 fired,one bullet went through the steel target carrier at 6ooyrds, that extractor yanked them bad boys out and flung'em all over the place and bent the rims on every last one of them. Were they loaded hotter? DON'T KNOW! BUT SURE HAD ALL THE EARMARKS!!!!!

[flounderman]

that 40s gi ammunition was corrosive primed. anything with a red primer laquer is corrosive. you need to use hot water and scrub the barrel after you shoot any of it or it will rust your barrel. I went thru about 400 corrosive primed brass and washed them in hot soapy water after I deprimed them. I don't know if it was neccessary, but just to be safe. we were issued
some corrosive at a dcm club I was in years ago and it put rings in the chambers in some of the springfields. I would wash any corrosive primed brass in hot water to cut the residue, to be on the safe side

[smoked turkey]

This is to provide an update on the LC 43 ammo I have been reworking. I don't know for sure if the LC 43 machine gun ammo I have was loaded with heavier charges of powder or not. The primers were corrosive so I pulled the 150 gr. spitzer FMJ bullets and weighed the powder in several samples. It ran from 50.6 gr-51.2 gr with average of 50.8 gr. It was stick powder and in all probability 4895. I felt it was loaded a little hotter than needed for my Garand. I immediately ran into problems knocking out the crimped in primers. I broke the decapping pin on my RCBS decapper. A call to RCBS netted me 10 new pins (free!). I shortened the pin so as to just be long enough to knock out the old primer. That allowed me to decap the 50 cases I am working with. I broke no more pins. I then chamfered the primer pocket before running the cases over my RCBS primer pocket swaging die. After some adjustments that sort of worked. It is a hard process and I didn't like having to use such force on the press handle to get the case off the swaging button. I then chamfered the primer pockets again. The cases were full length sized. I should have annealed them prior to this but I am wanting to get the process completed. The primers seated fairly hard but they did seat. I loaded twenty rounds with 46.2 gr. of the reclaimed powder.
Yesterday I was able to try the loads. I chronographed a few at av velocity of 2537'/s. My group for all twenty rounds wasn't too good at 4" at 60 yards. Ten rounds went into 2". The cases were thrown about four feet at the 1 o'clock position. I think the Garand will shoot better than that. I plan to increase the charge 0.5 gr to 46.7 to see if that makes any difference in group size. Other wise the whole process has been fun and the M1 sure is enjoyable to shoot. Sorry for such a long post.

[fatelk]

It seems that some of the WWII '06 ammo especially was heavily crimped. Some are a big pain to decap and de-crimp. The worst I had was some 44 dated Canadian 8mm brass. I never tried a pin punch; I'll have to remember that one.

I've decapped an awful lot of live primers over the years. I've had a very few go off (vary rarely), and it's really not a big deal. I only ever had them go off when they were heavily crimped. Sometimes the pin would even go completely through the primer without pushing it out. Just use some common sense and standard safety procedures (safety glasses, gloves, nothing flammable around, etc.). A lot of folks seem scared to push out a live primer, but it's really not that scary.

The age of the powder doesn't bother me at all, either, as long as it looks and smells good. I've used many pounds of WWII surplus gunpowder over the years, and gotten very good accuracy in a good rifle, much better than the average M1 is capable of.

I have a couple gallons of WWII 1x brass that I haven't done anything with. I have so much other good '06 brass that I haven't needed to mess with it yet.

[Multigunner]

.30-06 ammo intended for use in sychronized aerial machineguns, cowl mounted guns, was especially tested by lots for consistent time of ignition. They used rotating plywood discs in the place of a propeller to spot if any rounds hangfired and would hit a prop.
In earlier days of wooden props a bullet in the prop could down a plane, but most alloy props could withstand many hits, though bullets burried in the prop could shake the hammond constant rpm drive apart in short order.

The Aerial gun ammo was by virtue of its highly consistent ignition the most accurate of military ammo, and British snipers loved to raid RAF supply dumps for their Green Cross and Red Spot ammo.

I've heard that 168 gr AP was at one time the favorite of US target shooters.
Also that late in WW2 when more .30 MGs were being replaced in aircraft use by the .50 BMG huge stocks of .30 AP were issued to US ground troops and they were encouraged to fire at any likely place of ambush rather than wait till they actually saw the enemy.
The great penetration made field expediant fortifications practically useless, even most stone walls couldn't hold up to a rain storm of .30 AP rounds.

[Pirate69]

I use a sharpen pencil or a toothpick to hold the brass via the flashhole and turn as it heats. I purchase a thermal pencil that melts at 715F and timed how long it takes to get the neck to that temperature. I then dump it in a bucket of water. The time will vary by the intensity of the flame. If I recall correctly, it takes about 10 seconds to reach that temperature to anneal the brass. Gives a nice color change 1/4 " down on the case. At the correct temperture, the brass will anneal in matter of seconds. If the temperature is to low, such as 650F or so, it takes hours to anneal. Can't go that long a period or the whole case would anneal and that would be bad. Too high a temperature and the brass becomes too soft and this is a problem also. It will not even rehardnen with working. That is why a thermal pencil is good to get you in the correct temperature range. I have more info on annealing and will try to find it tonight.

[smoked turkey]

Pirate69 that is good information. I am very interested in finding a thermal pencil and needed to know what temperature to look for. I understand that they can be found at welding shops. I haven't looked yet but I will first chance I get. From your post it seems I will be looking for 715F. If you find any more info I will be very interested to see it.

[Rico1950]

Smoked turkey
Check out the 6mm bench rest site. Detailed article on annealing. Pretty sure it's LESS than 715F.