Which mold for paper patching?

[qajaq59]

Would someone suggest which Lee mold to buy for paper patching in a 30-30 lever gun? I'm guessing that it has to be smaller then the regular ones to accommodate the thickness of the paper? It might be fun to try doing those.

[HammerMTB]

My PPing has been limited to my Marlin 1895G in 45-70. I use the same boolit I use if I lube it. I run the PP'd boo thru the sizer and it works fine. It'd be .458" + 2 wraps before sizing, and it just needs a light coat of lube to git-er-dun. I would think you could do the same in 30 cal. I may be finding out soon in a Garand. Does anyone s'pose paper could get in the gas system?

[dnepr]

My PPing has been limited to my Marlin 1895G in 45-70. I use the same boolit I use if I lube it. I run the PP'd boo thru the sizer and it works fine. It'd be .458" + 2 wraps before sizing, and it just needs a light coat of lube to git-er-dun. I would think you could do the same in 30 cal. I may be finding out soon in a Garand. Does anyone s'pose paper could get in the gas system?

ok everyone is talking about this method , the simplicity of it just hit me , I have been using a bore sized slug patched up to groove diameter , this is a method simplifies a lot of issues .... the lightbulb just went on , sometimes I am a little slow to get the idea but i get it now , Thanks for putting it into terms that get through my thick skull :lol:

[qajaq59]

Hammer, what are you using as a lube, and how are you applying it?

[303Guy]

I use my ordinary case lubing pad 'loaded' with STP. I roll the patched boolit on the pad as I would a case. This seems to work just fine for me. It allows the patched CBoo to slide through a sizer and seat easily. I have no issures with patch adhesion to the core and the bore seems to stay clean. This works over a wide range of loading from insufficient to 'confetti' the patch to actual patch failure in a rough bore. I am of the opinion that one should not displace too much of the air trapped within the paper. (I'm using very porous printer paper)

Here are patch fragment recovered from the rough bore with the correct loading.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Withfiller211gr30gr2209Grits-PatchF.jpg

[qajaq59]

I just have to give the PP a try. For years now I've been thinking about it because I get the impression that it will allow me to use soft lead and still use fairly high velocities.
And if I'm wrong about that feel free to say so.

[docone31]

Use this Lee mold.
C309-170-F
Cast useing ww alloy. Water quench. Size to .308. Use dish soap for lube. Wrap a soaking patch 1 3/8" useing a cigarette roller to get a finished diameter of .318, .319. Size it to .309, useing Auto wax as lube. Use the wax sparingly. You just want the patch to shine.
Use Dollar store computer printer paper. Lined notebook paper will also work.
Seat per standard specs, use start load data for the weight in jacketed specs. Do not crimp.
You can use the Lee FCD die but, not with a crimp that will drag out the patch.
When you wrap the patch wet in the roller, it will come out damp. Twist the tail. You want approximately 1/2 of the patch used in the process.
Cut the patches 1" across the grain. In the puter paper, it will be across the bottom of the sheet.
In time, the patched castings will expand slightly. Mine went to .310 from .309. That is good.
Your first few shots will be wild, fire out 20, then they get real predictable.
That is the size you need to do.
Do not lube the patched loads on loading. No alox, no lube, no wax. Leave them dry. The auto wax from sizeing will work to protect from weather unless you are swimming. You would not use patched loads under water anyway.
Have fun, don't give up, and good shooting.

[303Guy]

I get the impression that it will allow me to use soft lead and still use fairly high velocities. I believe that to be true. I'm not sure of the effects of high muzzle pressure nor high spin on a soft-ish boolit but my understanding is that higher velocities with softer boolits is to be expected. Starmetal is getting some pretty impressibe velocoties with his 6.5 Swede.

On the mold selection, I would suggest trying your existing mold without post wrapping sizing. The throat might just be able to swage the fired boolit without damaging the patch. That does not work with my two-groove. There is just way too much swaging taking place and it stretches the patch rearward, causing crinkles which impress in the core and stay there. There is no patch failure - just the crinkling and base drag feathering. But then the two-groove has a throat with a 1 degree included taper, beginning right at the transition.

[Zeek]

. . . I am of the opinion that one should not displace too much of the air trapped within the paper. (I'm using very porous printer paper). . . .

Yup! Whut HE said! I wasted six months working with pretty sized-to-hardness-after-wrapping/drying PPatches. They CAN work, but the easy/quick/sure way it so start out with the boo sized down just enough (the Lee push-thru sizer is sovereign for that) that your applied/dried PPatch brings the boo back up to the desired final diameter.

For example, assuming a desired 0.310" boo diameter, you could use a 0.304" Lee push-thru sizer (custom) then apply a 3X patch of 0.001" thick tracing paper, for a final diameter of 0.310. Lube it very lightly (e.g., using paste floor wax), load out such that your get some resistance to chambering, and fire using starting J-boo charges. It is simple and it works.

Why does it work? My idea is that the gas-filled paper (i.e., it has not had the air sized out of it) gets pressed against the interior of the barrel, and the compressed air in the patch gives an excellent pneumatic seal (against gas leakage) and transfers torque to the boo too. There just flat is not time (~2 milliseconds from ignition to muzzle) for the trapped air to escape from the patch, so you get the handy nice-sealing pneumatic effect. I'll take that any old time compared to the challenge of getting a "flat tire" (no trapped air) PPCBoo to behave.
Zeek

[6.5 mike]

qajaq59, you're right about pushing soft lead at higher velocities, only thing that might be a problem is cycling it through the action as you don't want to damage the patch. Matching factory specs should be no problem with a 30-30, & as doc said the lee 170 works well in 2 of my 94's. Going to try pp'ed in the 325b i've got after I fix the bubbaed scope mount.

[qajaq59]

Thanks guys for the info. It's appreciated

It sounds like I can use an older Lyman 311041 FN that that I already have. It always cast a bit small anyway. I'll size it own a bit more and give it a try.

[303Guy]

I'll be looking forward to your results!:drinks:

[HammerMTB]

Hammer, what are you using as a lube, and how are you applying it?

Sorry, yer thread wandered off....
It got lots more feedback here anywho!
I use Imperial case sizing wax. Just a dab on the heel of the boolit is enough to get the process started.
And I have been going to softer lead. The idea is to create an expanding boolit, at least for me.... :cool:

[303Guy]

And I have been going to softer lead. The idea is to create an expanding boolit, at least for me.... :cool:I'd like to hear more about that. That's my objective too.

[docone31]

I have fired dead soft lead in my rifles at full speed.
If you use the technique I have shown, you can also.
The paper keeps them from spinning apart in the barrel. They appear very stable out the bore.

[pdawg_shooter]

Pure lead is good to around 2200fps. Over that you need a little alloy for strength.

[qajaq59]

I'll pick up a paper cutter and get some paper when I get a chance. I'm going to give it a try. I know there's a lot of guys doing it, so it must have some value.

[HammerMTB]

I'd like to hear more about that. That's my objective too.

The process so far:
I have tried WW/Pb in 50/50 ratio. That was successful as far as shooting them. There was no change in POA or vel. I've been thinking the next step would be 20/1.
I have plans to test for expansion, but the penetration on a 45/70 is so deep it may take some "figgerin'" to recover boolits..... :veryconfu

[Elkins45]

Yup! Whut HE said! I wasted six months working with pretty sized-to-hardness-after-wrapping/drying PPatches. They CAN work, but the easy/quick/sure way it so start out with the boo sized down just enough (the Lee push-thru sizer is sovereign for that) that your applied/dried PPatch brings the boo back up to the desired final diameter.

For example, assuming a desired 0.310" boo diameter, you could use a 0.304" Lee push-thru sizer (custom) then apply a 3X patch of 0.001" thick tracing paper, for a final diameter of 0.310. Lube it very lightly (e.g., using paste floor wax), load out such that your get some resistance to chambering, and fire using starting J-boo charges. It is simple and it works.

Why does it work? My idea is that the gas-filled paper (i.e., it has not had the air sized out of it) gets pressed against the interior of the barrel, and the compressed air in the patch gives an excellent pneumatic seal (against gas leakage) and transfers torque to the boo too. There just flat is not time (~2 milliseconds from ignition to muzzle) for the trapped air to escape from the patch, so you get the handy nice-sealing pneumatic effect. I'll take that any old time compared to the challenge of getting a "flat tire" (no trapped air) PPCBoo to behave.
Zeek

Everything you've said above makes me think I'm on the right track with this idea:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=84659

[qajaq59]

The sizing it down and them wrapping it certainly seems to make sense to me. Otherwise it must be a bear to get it sized with the paper on. But that's why I like this forum. It gets me info that generally makes sense.

[docone31]

That is the way I looked at it. Seemed to make tighter patches.

[6.5 mike]

All but 2 ( 7.7 jap & 303 sav) that I pp'ed are sized after wrapping. I try to use a paper that keeps my unfinished size .002 or less. Using lee molds that drop just undersize helps, lee 405 gr drops at .455 2 wraps tracing paper .4605. Barrel is 0.4575 groove, size to .459. Just a touch of car wax on the paper & slips through a lee die with almost no effort. If I need another custom sizer, I'll contact Buckshot, I have 1 & couldn't be more pleased with it. I have tried wrapping my cruise missle's, drops at .268, 2 wraps tracing paper, back through a .268 die from Buckshot, did these over 3 mouths ago, still holding at .268 with no climate control in my big shop. These are the most I've tried sizing down so far.

[qajaq59]

lee 405 gr drops at .455 2 wraps tracing paper .4605 Thanks for mentioning the tracing paper. I had no clue where to find cigarette paper, but tracing paper only took a trip to the stationary store. So at least I'm that far.

[Zeek]

Thanks for mentioning the tracing paper. I had no clue where to find cigarette paper, but tracing paper only took a trip to the stationary store. So at least I'm that far.

When you buy tracing paper, you are looking for the thin kind (~0.001" thick). There is a 16 pound type of tracing paper that is over twice that thick. So, if you are buying it at a store, bring your micrometer. If you are ordering it on-line, the right weight is around eight pound.

Myself, I like a 3X or 4X wrap of 0.001"-thick tracing paper (gives a diameter boost of 0.006" and 0.008", respectively). A 2X wrap (adding only 0.004") might not be thick enough to work. There really IS a point where the patch is too thin, and. It is a bit like ice skating . . . I don't like trying to see how thin the ice can be and still keep me from crashing thru.
Zeek