Article in Guns Magazine

[giz189]

Has anyone read the article on boolit casting in the July issue of Guns magazine? It states there are only 3 reasons a boolit will lead the bore. {1} Boolit is to fast {2} Boolit to soft or {3}Boolit doesn't carry enough lube. I guess it does not matter what diameter it is. Although the author does eventually touch on diameter he does not list it as a cause for leading. I guess we just clutter our minds up with all this information that we don't need.:groner:

[45nut]

lol thats impressive!

[EOD3]

Careful sarge, you never know who' ox you're goring around here :rolleyes:

Although I doubt anyone here would own up to writing an article like that... :bigsmyl2:

[Ole]

As a non-caster, that's what I always believed before I joined this site.

[nicholst55]

As a non-caster, that's what I always believed before I joined this site.

Agreed; me too. A LOT of people still believe that - well, that or the bore needs to be firelapped!

I wish I had $5 for every time I've read a post on other forums along these lines: 'Bad Leading - what to do? I bought the hardest bullets I could find for my (fill in the blank), but they still lead. Should I firelap the bore, or will that help?' Seems like .45 Colt revolvers are especially bad like that, because most guys can't understand why their linotype-equivalent hardness bullets are leading at a mere 750 fps. I always tell them to 1) slug the bore, 2) measure chamber throats, 3) size to match the chamber throats (assuming that they're larger than their groove diameter) and 4) use an alloy suitable for the pressures they're loading for. Unfortunately, that's more trouble than most folks are willing to go to.

[HeavyMetal]

Most people only "know" about casting from what they can read in the gunzines.

When you go contrary to the favored writer of the day, right or wrong, your an idiot!

Who was our writer in this case?

[Bret4207]

Don't ever expect anyone to discuss fit in your average gun comic. Too complex to fathom.

[44man]

Don't ever expect anyone to discuss fit in your average gun comic. Too complex to fathom.
I like that---GUN COMIC! :bigsmyl2:

[cajun shooter]

There are very few writers that I put even the tinest bit of faith in. I stopped my subscriptions because of this. One guy that still writes today has never found anything wrong with any tested product. I find it strange that when a new gun comes out it receives nothing but accolades. Then the problems start and they can't make replacement parts quick enough. This is true of gun related products also.

[nicholst55]

There are very few writers that I put even the tinest bit of faith in. I stopped my subscriptions because of this. One guy that still writes today has never found anything wrong with any tested product. I find it strange that when a new gun comes out it receives nothing but accolades. Then the problems start and they can't make replacement parts quick enough. This is true of gun related products also.

Sounds like Layne 'Never-met-a-gun-I-didn't like' Simpson.

[462]

A lack of information is no better than misinformation.

[MtGun44]

I am embarrassed for Mr. Barsness. He does know a lot about shooting, but he is very
clearly pretty ignorant about cast boolits. He needs to avoid writing about this topic in the
future.

I really enjoy his writing on a lot of other areas, but he really needs to spend a LOT more
time studying and shooting different cast boolits before he tries to write an article to teach
about them. It does point out the level of knowledge about this topic that is available on
this site. Pretty much most of the 'conventional wisdom' out there is baloney, especially
my pet peeve - 'only hard cast boolits won't lead, especially at magnum velocities'.

Anybody out there that knows how to contact the gentleman? I wouldn't mind contacting him
if I knew how so I could urge him to avoid writing on this topic, to avoid making a fool of
himself in public.

Bill

[jlchucker]

AWH! It was a nice Sunday morning, right up until someone started quoting gunrags. You can save enough money to buy some good molds with by not subscribing to pubs like GUNS and the rest. Giz189, you got me all wound up this morning. I need another cup of coffee to calm down. Those are indeed GUNCOMICS.

[RayinNH]

Bill, write to him in care of the "gun comic"...Ray

[BarryinIN]

I am embarrassed for Mr. Barsness.

It was John Barnsness? It's not shocking, but a little surprising. I wouldn't say I was a fan or anything, but I thought he was better than most (OK, that's faint praise but the best I could do).
Come to think of it, while his articles are plentiful in Rifle/Handloader, I don't recall seeing his name attached to casting articles. I guess Guns didn't notice that.

[Charley]

I commented on that idiotic article a few weeks back on another board. http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum95/13268.html

[giz189]

I agree with some that think he is one of the better writers in general, but I think he missed the boat a little on this one.

[gray wolf]

I guess you could say that I am glad I don't have the money to spend on that junk.
It's disguised as educational reading material.
If I need to learn something about casting a bullet or shooting a lead bullet
I just ask about it here.
Yes I agree about all the great write ups on the new guns, WOW every one is a winner.
I don't think so.

[MT Gianni]

John and his wife have a web sight to order books from and he hangs out at 24 hr camopfifeor used too. I have visited with him several times at gun shows and in stores and he is generally a very personable individual.

[Bret4207]

As Mt G said, last I knew John hung at 24 Hr, nice guy from all appearances, one of the few writers that actually seems to have some idea what he's about. There's a good chance the article was intended for "the masses" and written/edited with the broad brush type of stroke. There's also a good chance John just isn't a cast guy. Even our own Mike Venturino, who's turning out to be a better guy than I gave him credit for years back, has yet to get into fit and it's issues, and he's about he most knowledgeable main stream gun writer in regular print.

Truthfully, you've got to spoon feed this stuff to people. Even us old guys that have been at it a while take time to change our opinions and ideas. We're still fighting the " How hard do I need my boolit to shoot at 2500fps?" problem every day here.

Hey it coulda been worse- Can you imagine David Fortier or Peter Kokalis doing a cast article? The problems would be huge! I mean, what uniform do they dress up in to pretend to be a soldier from a certain period?!!! Things like could make or break and article! Or Clair Reese could have made a blind stab at it. That would require a fantastic leap of imagination in itself.

[pjh421]

As I read down this thread I was wondering who was going to throw the name Claire Rees into this (hee hee).

Paul

[Charley]

As Mt G said, last I knew John hung at 24 Hr, nice guy from all appearances, one of the few writers that actually seems to have some idea what he's about. There's a good chance the article was intended for "the masses" and written/edited with the broad brush type of stroke. There's also a good chance John just isn't a cast guy. Even our own Mike Venturino, who's turning out to be a better guy than I gave him credit for years back, has yet to get into fit and it's issues, and he's about he most knowledgeable main stream gun writer in regular print.

Truthfully, you've got to spoon feed this stuff to people. Even us old guys that have been at it a while take time to change our opinions and ideas. We're still fighting the " How hard do I need my boolit to shoot at 2500fps?" problem every day here.

Hey it coulda been worse- Can you imagine David Fortier or Peter Kokalis doing a cast article? The problems would be huge! I mean, what uniform do they dress up in to pretend to be a soldier from a certain period?!!! Things like could make or break and article! Or Clair Reese could have made a blind stab at it. That would require a fantastic leap of imagination in itself.

This is the second post I've seen shifting the fault to the editor. As a sometime writer myself (not about guns!), that's mostly BS.

[82nd airborne]

Kokalis and Fortier, both stay in topics of which they are knowlegeable, and that they are. although it is mainly tacti-cool weapons they write on and a pretty fair distance from cast boolits, I figure we might as well point out a positive while we're at it. I enjoy thier articles because they are technical rather than describing the outside appearance and never mentioning pet loads or even true accuracy.

[azcruiser]

Most if not all articles in gun magazines are a direct
result or to some extent to sell someone's products.
For the most part they are BS told by BS ers
Some are very good at the BS part

[Bret4207]

This is the second post I've seen shifting the fault to the editor. As a sometime writer myself (not about guns!), that's mostly BS.

Well, I'm not a writer, my sole contribution appearing in a now defunct magazine many, many years ago, but I have spoken/written with some gun writers who tell me the editors have a lot to do with it. I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt. I see see no need to get rude or disrespectful about it.

[pmeisel]

Barsness is on the 24hr Campfire most days, posting under Mule Deer. He is very approachable and friendly, treat him with respect and he will respond in kind.

Venturino and a few others are on there sporadically too... also Ken Howell, former editor....

And there have been a couple threads on how editors mangle a writers contributions.....

[Charley]

Well, I'm not a writer, my sole contribution appearing in a now defunct magazine many, many years ago, but I have spoken/written with some gun writers who tell me the editors have a lot to do with it. I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt. I see see no need to get rude or disrespectful about it.
Not being rude, try writing for a peer review group ( as this is, to an extent). If your conclusions are contrary to other's work and experience, you are going to get criticism. Some of it is oblique, some of it is direct, and some just flat hammers you. Teaches you to do more research and spend more time on analysis and conclusions before submiting for publication.

[MtGun44]

Is there some equivelant to our PM on that site? I don't want to say what I need to
say no a public forum.

Bill

[Mike Venturino]

I have never (to date) posted on the 24 hour Campfire site. Never visited it either.

MLV

[waksupi]

Thanks for pitching in Mike, always good to hear when someone else is tossing BS that isn't true. I didn't recall ever seeing you there.

[muskeg13]

Ditto the Grooannn! and snicker at the "gun comic" reference. It's certainly appropriate. I about fell off the stool in the "reading room" when I noted the glaring omission of the absolute necessity of proper sizing in the article. Nobody who casts a lot of boolits themselves (as opposed to those only shoot store bought) would have overlooked this. I threw the magazine down and was tempted to use the paper for a more useful purpose. Later, I looked at the article again to see who the author was. If it had been anyone with the cast bullet credentials of MV or Brian Pearce, I would have cancelled my subscription. I don't want to do that, because "Guns" does have good articles now and then and I'm running out of options for decent gun periodicals after BP Cartridge News, Rifle and my favorite, Handloader. We have to break the "harder is better" myth or those few enterprising souls who try the alternative of cast boolits will likely become discouraged and give in to the push to ban lead.

[Bret4207]

Not being rude, try writing for a peer review group ( as this is, to an extent). If your conclusions are contrary to other's work and experience, you are going to get criticism. Some of it is oblique, some of it is direct, and some just flat hammers you. Teaches you to do more research and spend more time on analysis and conclusions before submiting for publication.

So all the other writers who claim the editors have a hand in things are lying?

[azcruiser]

to quote Joe Pesci in casino [ I'ts The Money it's always about the money ] sums up my feelings on gum magizines

[danski26]

I read the article and found it lacking also. I'm not sure if it was an oversight or an editing problem but there was a problem that one way or the other the author should have caught before publishing.

[pmeisel]

Sorry, Mike, I was confused. I guess I am visiting too many sites.

[Blackhawk Convertable]

Worst gun writer has to be Mr. "I've never tested a product that wasn't the best thing since John Browning designed the..." Larry Weishun. Instead of calling him Mr. Whitetail, it should be Mr. Whitelie.

[Bret4207]

Naw, Clair Reese. He might be the nicest guy in world for all I know, but his articles stink.

[pmeisel]

Well, switching from being negative, I'll be positive... Although I have enjoyed a lot of articles from the long-time-oft-published guys, my favorite thing to read just for fun is Gun Digest.

A lot of the articles over the years are by people who are seldom published or not widely published, they were free to write about whatever they wanted, and the editor got to pick what he thought was best from the selection. Reading old GDs was also how I discovered some of the writers who contributed primarily to things I just didn't read, or whose most active years were behind them....

[RayinNH]

I read the article yesterday. I didn't find it as offensive as most of you seem to. He was talking about handgun boolits specifically. He mentions the three reasons for leading, boolits too fast, too soft or not enough lube. Of course there are a myriad of reasons for leading also including rough bore, undersize boolits, not sticking your tongue out at the right angle when squeezing the trigger etc.

He was casting two different boolits for two handguns. The molds cast very slightly oversize and he mentions not having to size because of that. He also mentions many casters consider one thousandth over bore diameter to be ideal.

The last paragraph he says he has been casting for several decades. I have to assume he's learned something in that time. I'll cut him some slack and just figure he was under a word constraint to the column to elaborate in detail. You gotta get those ads in you know.

Any article that deals with casting can only help our hobby in getting more people interested. Those that are really interested will pursue more information. Those that just want cheap blasting/noise making rounds will buy hardcast.

My two cents. your MMV...Ray

[MtGun44]

The article was not completely incompetent. I never said it was.

Not making FIT the most important first step is a major disservice to the new caster.
Failure to put fit as the number one critical issue leads one to chasing a bunch of
much less critical issues around trying to get accuracy or stop leading when you are
failing to use the most powerful tool you have - FIT.

Getting the fit wrong (usually completely ignoring it or just asking "Hey, what is good
for a .38 Spl?" ) is the key error in most of the long threads where some newbie is
struggling. Lots of various suggestions, harder alloy, heat treat, add a GC, try a different
lube, beveled bases are no good, yes they are, that lube sucks, no it doesn't, tumble
lube is worthless, I love tumble lube. Yadda, yadda, yadda. One recent thread runs over
160 posts in what is most likely a fit problem, possibly compounded by other issues.

The newbie is baffled because he is chasing all the secondary factors - not that they are
unimportant, but they are SECONDARY. You need to sort all of them out, but after getting
the fit right, and usually "too big" almost never happens (unless chambering is an issue) so
the fit issue is not big enough.

Bill

[Bret4207]

Well, I don't get "Guns" anymore, or anything else either really. Deputy Al best described most of todays gun mags as "Gun Comics". Sad, but true. The almighty dollar rules, that much is for sure and from what I understand a guy like Ken Waters, Al Miller, Townsend Whelen or George Nonte wouldn't get published today. So here we are, stuck with the status quo. The best we can do is provide good info to those looking to get into this discipline and try and get the basics across. Fit is King. I don't see how that can be denied.

[Charley]

So all the other writers who claim the editors have a hand in things are lying?

All the others? Thought you said "some".
I guess my writing doesn't involved editors much, it is based on teaching/training in my industry. It's often reviewed by a state agency, and is open for review and criticism by an awful lot of folks way smarter than me. Truth is truth, though, and fact is fact. Little line you mentioned...twice..."fit is king". A writer who doesn't write the truth, editorial decision or not, needs to decide what is important to him. If he won't write about facts, well, there is always a market for vampire fiction...

[Suo Gan]

This mistake is the least of their problems.

IMO the gun rags are still coasting along on the pens of earlier greats (both editors and writers). They have left many modern shooters cold with their constant barrage of advertisements that tell us the only way an author was able to make the 600 yard shot with his new xxxxxmagnum with its 1-99x scope was by having this rangefinder, and that GPS, and this ceramic bladed knife, and that packable toothbrush used by astronauts. They have become a wing of Madison Ave. I have written some of my old favorites (when I was a kid) mags and told them about it. I told them that I counted over 300 ads and 10 articles talking positively about their advertisements in their recent issue. Their unanimous response was, "Due to the tremendous expense of running a contemporary magazine, we cannot do anything else!" So if everyone is on the take for promoting a new product, how the heck can we believe that they are being objective?

I know I have turned a mistake in an article into a gun rag rant, but I get the drift that they think we are all fat, dumb, and happy about their current practices. But I doubt it will change anytime soon.

[Wayne Smith]

The Good Old Days weren't that long ago. Handloader #220, Dec. 2002 has an article by Gil Sengel on the 23-20 where he clearly explains the need for two different diameter boolits in his Colt vs his S&W. In the same article is an article by Ross Seyfried on ... GASP!... Paper Patched Bullets! And one by John Haviland on the differences between brass cases.

Sure has gone downhill since then, hasn't it?

[pmeisel]

The big seller popular mags sell most copies to the new and less knowledgeable (I remember when that was me).

[RayinNH]

Mike Venturino writes for Guns, he doesn't shill for the advertisers. Sure he uses products, dies powder etc. and they get mentioned as to brand. Mas Ayoob on the other hand...:roll:...Ray