dont know how some of you guys do it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I hear all the time on here where someone prefers and uses just one powder or primer or cast bullet and gets good accuracy. You must be a lucky sob. Ive been playing with 44 mags all summer. Ive been probably taking on to much at one time but what the hell. Ive been shooting a 3 inch 29 a 4 inch 629 a 4 5/8s super a 5.5 inch bisley and a 3.5 inch redhawk all at the same time. Ive been working my way through 11 cast bullets trying to find a 1000fps and a 1300fps load for the 250 class bullets and a 1100 fps load for the heavys. I dont think after the thousands of rounds ive shot so far i can narrow it down to any one powder or primer combo that works better then another with any certain bullet in any more then one gun.
Im looking for one inch group loads. No 44man not at 50 but just at 25 ;) Im here to tell you there rare. Ive been shooting keiths and lfns for the most part and have been using 2400 universal clays, power pistol, unique, and herco for mid range and 2400, 110, 820, 297 and 4227 for the hotter stuff. Primers for the light loads have been cci, fed and ww and for the heavys ww and cci 350s.
Every time i read where just about everyone is getting one inch groups with about every load they shoot i want to choke them. If one thing ive found in YEARS of shooting sixguns is it takes a really good sixgun to do it often and alot of load work to get an average gun to do it. It is a RARE out of the box ruger that will do it without alot of work and thats in 44 a caliber that tends to be the easiest to find loads for. I really want to choke guys that claim they do it with bullets ive been shooting for 20 years and have never found a good load in any gun for that particular bullet. I think alot of guys are doing more talking then shooting. Its like some guys that buy a new truck and lie about the gas milage like its something personal if that lump of steel they bought isnt the best dammed thing on the road. then you get the reall idiots who claim to buy a rew ruger or smith and buy a box of about any factory ammo and with absolutely no shooting experience shoot one inch groups. I have to call bs on that. It takes alot of handgun shooting experience to shoot a 38 special that well let alone something that has a little bit of recoil like a 44 mag. Then i want flip over backwards when they claim to do it with there brand new 500 smith.
Either there totaly full of bs or im the worse shot in the country. I know ive shot at least 5000 44 mags and the same in 45 colt earlier this year looking for one inch group loads and can count the ones ive found on my fingers and toes.
Sorry about the long post and the rant but i just want to someone to explain to me why people feel they have to lie about there guns and shooting ability. Must be really frustrating for a honest beginner reading that kind of dribble.

[StarMetal]

Lloyd,

I was always anti-44 magnum because I was a 45 Colt fan. Well finally one day I broke down and bought a S&W 629 Classic (since has been sold). I bought a Saeco 240 grian TC gas check bullet. For my lead plinking load I stuck with the first load I tried and that was 10 grains of Unique. For jacketed I used the Hornady XTP bullets. I had a scope on it and at 50 yards it shot an honest 3/4 group with either the lead or the jacketed. Took some deer with it and then sold it and bought me a mig welder with the money.

I don't know what to tell you.

[Geraldo]

Either there totaly full of bs or im the worse shot in the country.

You're the worst shot in the country...http://www.smileyhut.com/laughing/rofl.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

Sorry, Lloyd, I coudn't resist that. I don't have much to offer other than to say that I have yet to find the perfect .44 revolver or the perfect .44 load. I settled on one that was passable in the .44s I owned at the time, but it wasn't 'one hole' accurate.

Edited to add-they are full of BS.

[BLTsandwedge]

Hiya Lloyd,

I'd been shooting a 629 Classic for about 8 years now- it is close to being as accurate as any revolver I own provided I do my job. I shoot off-hand- I've never really worked at all with benchrest, even for zeroing. By off-hand I mean a two hand hold with no rest or body support of any kind. The best I can do with the 629 is a 3" group at 25 yards- I do not know if this is good or bad because there are no bullseye shooters at my club to compare my shooting to. I am assuming a 3" group off-hand is pretty average shooting. Having said that, most of my groups are 3.5"- I hope to improve this now that I'm on new tremor medication (as posted several weeks ago). These groups are from a #429421 over 24g W296 and a WLP. Accuracy from slower loads has been worse- I find that the faster I can push the #429421 the better....within reason.

[BABore]

I don't have any 44 Mag groups handy, but here are a few I have on file for some of my other out-of-the-box Rugers. I'll have to see iff'in I have any of my favorite 44 mag loads ready to go for pictures this weekend. I use my own 429421 HP clone cast from 50/50 WW-Pb, air cooled for 10 bhn. 24.0 grains of WW296 and a CCI 350 primer. It will only do 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" when I'm shooting good. That's at 50 yards though. I'll move the target in some and see what I get. It does about the same over 8.5 grs of Unique with a CCI 300.

All these loads are at 25 yards except for the 45 Colt. That was shot at 50 yards with open sights. Not my gun, but I worked up a load for it. IIRC that one was around 1 1/4".

[Frank]

I know this sounds kind of basic and redundant, but have you tried a red dot? The reason I say that is because you would be amazed how that little dot is dancing all over your aiming point that you might not be seeing with iron sights. Even off the bench when it goes bang you can see where the dot was last. The red dot gives a lot of feedback, IMHO.

[peter nap]

I don't have any 44 Mag groups handy, but here are a few I have on file for some of my other out-of-the-box Rugers. I'll have to see iff'in I have any of my favorite 44 mag loads ready to go for pictures this weekend. I use my own 429421 HP clone cast from 50/50 WW-Pb, air cooled for 10 bhn. 24.0 grains of WW296 and a CCI 350 primer. It will only do 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" when I'm shooting good. That's at 50 yards though. I'll move the target in some and see what I get. It does about the same over 8.5 grs of Unique with a CCI 300.

All these loads are at 25 yards except for the 45 Colt. That was shot at 50 yards with open sights. Not my gun, but I worked up a load for it. IIRC that one was around 1 1/4".

That just makes me sick!:killingpc

[Changeling]

Loyd I know we have had our difference of opinions, but that aside, I really understand what you are saying. I wish I really had a definitive answer for you, but you know the variables are vast!
If you have the time I would suggest the following:

First off what Frank said sounds really good, I have never used a "dot" scope on a revolver but if I was unsatisfied I definitely would give it a go and not just disconnect with the idea without giving it some thought
I know (everybody else also) you are sincere about marksmanship.

The other thing is the distance, to be honest have no idea why everyone (A lot) shoot at 25 yards unless it is for some reason that started way back when and just become a standard! It is probably great for some of the smaller caliber revolvers/pistols, but guys using 357 mags through 45 caliber or heavier (yes, him and Whitworth, LOL) have really no reason to shoot at 25, what the hell for?.

If you would take some advise it would be to get with the revolver/caliber you want to try/like, 1 that you like, the hell with everyone else's choice, just your favorite. Go someplace that has a bench to shoot from with no distractions, such as other shooters and just have some fun shooting, all alone, by yourself! You might be surprised.

[44man]

That just makes me sick!:killingpc
What we do here also makes gun writers get sick too! [smilie=l::bigsmyl2:
It really is not that hard. What dies are you using? What alloy, what boolit diameter?
You have been with me all along so you should on top of it. Yes, the .44 is great and easy to work with.
I don't know what to say except I wish we (You and Lloyd) lived close together, then I could show you. You would spit and cuss when you see how lazy and lax I am, grab another home brew and some shine and laugh like crazy. I will bet a lobster dinner that I could have both of you shooting under an inch at 50. Yes YOU fellas, not me. Bioman does 1/2" at 50 with a new Hunter.
I bet Babore will have you fellas shooting like him too.

[dubber123]

Lloyd, it's not only you. I can't really say I've ever had much luck with lighter loads producing the best accuracy for me, but once in a while I luck onto a good load. The old Lyman 429383? round nose and 8 grs of Unique was a 1" or less load out of my 4" 629, but thats about it for good light loads. The short sight radius on the guns you mention sure do make it hard on you also.

I just spent the better part of 4 months working on my 6" Mod 14 to get it where I was happy, and I tried many different boolits. BABores 360640 was the only one I was happy with. At that rate I will definately die of old age before I get loads worked for them all.

[Bass Ackward]

What length barrels? :grin:


Statistically I find that my best cast loads, regardless of bore diameter or launching platform do not exceed 12k psi muzzle. Less for PB. More often than not, it is closer to 4k - 6k. Much easier to achieve with the longer barrels as (7 1/2" in 44 Mag) 1300 fps can be produce with 28K and only 4k of muzzle pressure.

So what are you doing?


The 4" class of guns with a 240 grainer require 40k to 45k to produce 1300 fps. This produces 15k -20k of flight altering, launch ruining, muzzle pressure.

For the 3" it is 58k to produce 1300 fps and a bevel base creating 25k of muzzle pressure. And not only is this flight altering, but this thrust producing jet engine must be controlled too!

So my guess is that you are getting the 1000 fps level fairly easy, but scratching your head on the next level. My advice is to buy a football helmet, it will save your hair. :grin:

Learn to love longer barrels where pressure is produced. Or don't produce it. Bigger bore, cut pressure faster and are more advantageous in shorter barrels.

[RobS]

Llyod Smale to be quite honest there is nothing that holds true to every gun as you have found (10K rounds of 44mag/45 colt loads):shock:. There are the compromises of "general comfort" in the notion that one powder/primer/bullet combo will produce decent groups, but not 1" at 25 yards, with several revolvers of different makes etc. This notion would be stretching things out I believe.

You and I do agree on certain issues regarding reloading although where as you are close minded to an extent I am always willing to learn something new. I had a thread started that you merely shot down with abrasiveness comments as your practices didn't mesh with what I had written. Well here we are and you are venting................

I agree with you on those who can take a reload and shoot it equally well with 1" groups in any firearm that is chambered for it..................I call BS as well. I'm not saying that a person can't take two different revolvers and shoot good groups with the same load, but to say that a certain load will work magically in all firearms.................

However, if you should happen to find the "perfect" load I'll be listening to hear how it was done............with what bullet............alloy/BHN.................powder.............primer etc.

[bigboredad]

?Lloyd
its possible that people really think that they shoot that good because they 1. don't know how far 25 yards is so they guess or 2. they have know idea how to measure groups or what a inch group really looks like. The one thing I've learned over the years and it doesnt matter what you are talking about people for some reason have to embellish there own achievements. I have no doubt there are some here that really can shoot that good and don't have to stretch the truth. i won't name names but there is one here that I believe more than any other and he routinely gets called a liar but I have no doubt he can make not only his six guns work but many others. I wish you luck and as far as me I am the worst shot you've ever seen and won't bother anyone with my groups. I also suck at writing so I hope this makes sense:wink:

[454PB]

I feel your pain.

I can't hold a candle to some of the guys here, but I keep trying.

Over the last 38 years of shooting the .44, .45, and .454, I've beat up my hands and ruined my hearing. I still haven't found that magic load that will CONSISTANTLY produce 1" groups at 25 yards with open sights.

Yesterday I was shooting two of my .357 magnums.....a blue Ruger Security Six 6" and a chrome S&W model 19 2 1/2". I did get one six shot group using the S.S. of an honest 1", and several 2 1/2" groups with the snubbie Smith......and I was really happy with those.

What surprises me is that I can shoot offhand and only increase the group size about 50%.

On the other hand, I've observed other shooters bench testing handguns that bragged about 6" groups at 25 yards......so maybe there is hope.

[GP100man]

Lloyd

I was at the same point your at with 2 Redhawks ,then I tried IMR 800x !

I know it`s close to Herco but it`s different , the 7 1/2 barrel will shoot 800x way better than the 5 1/2 barreled , the 5 1/2 likes the classic Keith loads .

& on a good day at 25yds 4" is `bout all I can do , I used to practice with paper plates for huntin & if I hit the plate I was happy !!!

Now everybody wants to drag out the calipers ?????

[AzShooter]

I dont mean to be a smart ass. Some guys can probably do it but not a lot of them. Ask them to do it in front of you.

I made a lot of money at the range from guys telling me their gun could print 1 inch groups all day. Even guys with scoped rifles. I put down my money and tell them if they can do it the money is theirs otherwise they owe me.

I've NEVER paid out.

It's one thing to do it once or once in a while but it's very hard to do it every time especially under pressure.

Now bench rest shooters are a different breed.

[giz189]

Hey Lloyd, never owned anything in 44 caliber, but I am sure if I did, I could shoot 1" at fifty yards anytime I wanted to..........not!

[Lloyd Smale]

Buddy AL and i talked about this yesterday. Al is hands down the best handgun shot ive ever seen and has probably loaded more ammo then anyone in the country. Gun writers and even John linebaugh ask him for loading advice.


He said first that about half the shooters that make these claims are talking out there buts. Its a small handfull of handgunners that really are capable of delivering the goods. He said second you have to take into account that a good percentage of these claims are comming from guys that shoot basicaly rifles without stocks. It takes a lot more skill and consentration to get one inch groups out of a 4-6 inch gun then it does a 7-10 inch gun off the bench.



His third suggestion was one that hit home with me. He said to throw away all the marginal molds you have. Bullets like the 250k, 245k, 429421, lbt 250swc, ect. He said there molds that will occasionaly luck into a good gun but take work even in a good gun to get to shoot. Concentrate on proven shooters like the 240 rcbs swcgc the lyman 429244 and 215. Sure it will cost you a gas check but those bullets shoot. Looking at my records past and present shows this out. I can show you guns that like the 429421. Maybe one with the round lube groves and the next gun may like one load with the square but those other three bullets tend to shoot well in every gun with about every load and in my cases they shoot exceptionaly well. I dont think ive got a group recorded with any of them that went much over 2 inches and sure cant say that about the others. Got to be something to it as ive shot all of these bullets cast out of various alloys from 5050 pure/lyno to straight lino and sized everywhere from 430 to 433 and its rare when they do good. I guess more then anything what im trying to accomplish here is a good shooting plain base load so i doubt im throwing any molds away. I dont mind buying gas checks but it sucks for guns you take out and shoot a thousand rounds a week out of. So i guess ill just keep plugging along.


One other suggestion he made that was a good one is once you find a load for a certain gun with a plain based bullet put it away and quit the load developement for that gun. A guy doesnt need 5 loads for one gun that shoot one inch. I guess im guilty of that because Im allways looking for the majic load that does well in all of my guns to simplify loading. I probably just aint going to happen though. I know 44man is just biting at the bit to tell me to ditch the swcs. bottom line is i know there a bit tougher to work with but using a lfn or wfn isnt a majic cure either. I think its more of a fight because of the weight range of these bullets then it is a design. 45 colts in this weight range are even tough yet. What really blows is when you work your tail off to find a good load and do find it then take it out and shoot it at 3-500 yards and find out its all over the place. Thats one place the 44 bullets tend to shine over the 45s in that weight range. Its alot easier to find a 44 bullet that willl fly.

[Ed K]

Lloyd,

I've noticed you have on more than one occasion stated you shoot a short barreled gun better than long. I'm not saying that isn't true for you but well, that just defies physics - a law of nature. There is a reason silhouette shooters take advantage of 10" barrels. I will go on record now that I do not consider myself a great shot and I don't believe I've ever posted group sizes, blah, blah.

That out of the way I will say that on a short barreled gun the sight picture looks steady and well-aligned to my eye but the groups don't reflect it. Then on a longer barrel gun getting the same sight picture is more difficult but the groups improve. Now go to a scoped TC and I have to fight like crazy to steady the sight picture but guess what? The group is still better. The longer sight radii and optics exaggerate sighting error, causing you to focus harder and groups improve. There just isn't enough feedback in the sight picture of a short barreled gun to be able to shoot it really well in my opinion (and as seen in my results).

[44MAG#1]

I know I am new on here but that doesn't mean I don't know anything. Just never really thought much about shooting forums until lately when I had some questions about delivery times of custom gunsmiths.
BUT I will tell you how some shoot the real small groups and that is through the law of odds.
The more you shoot the more likely you will luck into a good group.
Yesterday when I tried the Ruger I got back that was not fixed I shot my 45 Colt New Vaquero with a RCBS 270 SAA 18.0 gr 2400 and Rem 21/2 primers and 5 out of the 6 cut the same hole with 1 slightly out. 25 yards offhand. A billfold group. I threw it away.
The other day I shot my BFR in 45/70 at 25 yards offhand with a 520 grain bullet and 49 gr or H322 that 4 out of the 5 would more than have hit a quarter with 1 out slightly. Another billfold group. I don't have it either. I have shot like this before but I don't normally do it. The more I shoot the more likely I will though.
I have had many groups offhand at 50 yards that some can't shoot at 25 yards offhand but I rarely if ever keep them.
Throw away your bad groups, your average groups, and the above average groups and just keep your unbelievable groups, even by you, and you will have some.
That is how it is done. Don't believe it just go to a public range and watch most people shoot.

[Bret4207]

I enjoy a good lie as well as the next guy, but it's true that most of the claims on the internet are just dreaming. I've seen some guys brag up their skills and then I've seen the targets they shot. Huh. 2 different things those claims and targets.

Face it, if I get on Grey beard. 24 hr Campfire or the High Road or even this site and show pics of 3.5-4.0" groups at 50 yards, shot from a rest and bags...I'll get crucified. Nobody considers that a bragging group. So our egos tend to shrink that group a bit, to round down instead of up, to stretch the range from 50 to 100. Best advice- take everything you read from 95% of the posts out there with a grain of salt.

Lloyd, you're finding what I've believed for years- each gun is a law unto itself. What works fantastic in your 44 might not, probably won't, work so great in mine.

I do agree with friend Als suggestion of going to the GC designs. They just make things easier. Never seen that fail.

Ed- I have a Smith Kit Gun, 4". That one defies the laws of common sense, but I think I have it figured out. I can shoot that particular gun better holding it in one hand, off hand, than I can 2 handed or off a bench. Why? Sight picture. It works for my tired eyes. Conversely, I have a 9.5" Ruger 32 Mag SSM that I cannot shoot at all with open sights. I thought the thing was a real dog till I put a scope on it. It's my only scoped revolter, but it works for me. Sight picture makes the difference. Goes agiant common sense, but there you have it. Just flukes, I know, but it happens.

[45 2.1]

It does make a difference in what alloy, lube, gun, loading method you use and the pressure range you choose to shoot it in. If your not getting results with what you've chosen, try something else.................... You might get a big surprise.

[Jack Stanley]

Lloyd , It sounds as though some might be braggin' but , I have no doubt that at least a few of the guys CAN deliver the groups that all say they can . Give them an invite to the first annual Lloyd Smale snowflake/blackfly shoot to be held on the shores of the great inland sea :)

When I was twenty some years younger and could actually see pistol sights , I wanted to hunt deer with a model twenty-nine . I cast some gas checked hollow points , put them on a increasingly large stack of 2400 untill I could get two cylinder fulls of the ammo to fit inside the dimensions of an old style silver dollar . Not just once but several times , half the holes were clustered in a ragged hole , the others still fit inside a Morgan dollar .

For me that's enough to lay the hurt to just about anything in my back yard , though it might have trouble on the elk in your corn patch . Though I never expected to shoot beyond twenty-five yards hunting . I did waylay one deer that was thirty five or so steps away while using my training wheels pistol hunting . There would have been no way I could support the gas check and powder habit this gun could have had , so I cheated . I started bullseye compitition using .... yep the model twenty-nine . H&G made a wadcutter mold for me , a charge of faster powder so the slugs would cut clean and not tear the paper . Then shoot a lot of single action and when I thought I was all that , shoot double action . Going back and paying attention to a hunting load was easier for me then . The gun is a six inch barrel , blued steel marvel that I still have but I don't shoot much or as well as I once did .

It sounds like you're trying to keep up with what others say they can do but maybe you haven't seen them do . So what to do about it ???? Maybe find the revolver ya like that has the best chance of doing what you want , keeping in mind you're going to shoot a thousand rounds a week ( even in the snow tunnel ) . And then , retreat to the top secret "waterfall" shooting range ya got out back . You probably shoot better than you know , compitition will hone your edge so what the others say to detract from your performance means less all the time . Those that give honest input will help you ...... just like they help on this board .

It's not to late for a snowflake shoot , whaddya tink nex week be good out dere ona da ice ? :Fire:

Jack

[redneckdan]

Lloyd,

I've noticed you have on more than one occasion stated you shoot a short barreled gun better than long. I'm not saying that isn't true for you but well, that just defies physics - a law of nature. There is a reason silhouette shooters take advantage of 10" barrels. I will go on record now that I do not consider myself a great shot and I don't believe I've ever posted group sizes, blah, blah.



Longer barrels give a better sight picture. Short barrels decrease the time off the bullet in the barrel and there for the amount that the bullet will be thrown off due to 'wiggle'. Understand that this comes from a bullseye backround and may not apply to much to shooting off a bench.

[Uncle R.]

I enjoy a good lie as well as the next guy, but it's true that most of the claims on the internet are just dreaming. I've seen some guys brag up their skills and then I've seen the targets they shot. Huh. 2 different things those claims and targets.

I do agree with friend Als suggestion of going to the GC designs. They just make things easier. Never seen that fail.
.

That matches my experience too. Once-in-a-lifetime lucky groups don't count. If you can't do it again and again and again it's not a true reflection of the load, the gun, or your ability to shoot.
<
I'm far from expert with cast and I know that a lot of guys here don't use gas checks in revolvers but I've had better results with less load development and hassle when I use those little cups. Yeah, they're expensive but to me they're worth the cost for the way they tighten up my groups.
<
As for shooting small groups with a handgun - well, I'd rather have a scope than a red dot but either is better than irons - and even when my eyes were young and clear a scoped handgun was better for bench rest grouping. I'd rather have a pile of sandbags than a Ransom rest. (Fill 'em with real sand please.) Even with everything just the way I like it I'd hate to bet that I could deliver a 1" group at 25 yards every time with a revolver. At least with any of MY revolvers...
<
Now and then? OK - maybe.
Every Time? No excuses?
Um - well, er rather - can I use my Contender?
<
Uncle R.

[44man]

I detest shooting paper. There is only two purposes for paper, working a load or sighting in. As loads are worked, poor targets go in the burner barrel and that load is not visited again. As soon as groups tighten, I confirm with a bunch of targets as I sight in. Those get tossed in the drawer and I move to another boolit another day and do the same but will not sight in for it unless I choose it over another for deer. Sighting in is the very last thing on my mind until the season gets close and that boolit needs done. Otherwise I just shoot the one that is sighted for cans, bottles of water and all kinds of fun targets to 200 yards. I will do 200 yards drop tests on paper but I aim at a can or something above the paper. I will forever hate bulls eyes.
I can not shoot open sights from sandbags, the sights are too close to my eyes. I only shoot Creedmore with open sights to get them as far away as I can. A standing rest might help but Creedmore is still farther.
This could be a lot of some fellas problems, you are just too close to the sights.
I use the red dot for deer and many of my groups are shot with them even though the dot is large. Switching to a scope has shown no improvement for me, groups do not get better for some reason. A scope is also a bear to use from Creedmore, I hate the wiggle I can see. I do not want to see it. I shoot open sights better from the position. If you are watching wiggle, you will not shoot good. You will always try to make the gun fire when the cross hairs pass the center. The very best scope is 1X. I have a Tasco 2X with a dot and I can not shoot tight groups with it, the red dot will do better. My Loopy will equal the red dot. Neither are worth a darn for deer, they both black out in the mornings and evenings when the deer are moving. Open sights seem to move to another country too. I shot a lot of deer with them but it needs to be full light.
Vision is the most important thing and as I get older, it gets harder.
Once a gun is shooting, there is still no way to shoot a tiny group all the time but when the gun is as good as it can get, the rest is just the shooter, the loose nut. Wake up with blurry vision and shaking hands, forget it!
Short barrels are harder to work a load with but once you find it, the length has nothing to do with accuracy but don't get carried away with short. I laugh at those that want a .500 with a 2" barrel. Once recoil can't be controlled, forget accuracy. I like 7-1/2" to 10". I do OK with 5 and 6" but a wild gun is a belly gun. I can control my 7-1/2" .475 BFR and even a Freedom but to think you can do it with a 4" barrel you are howling at the moon. You can't allow any gun to recoil or torque different for every shot. My favorite saying is "I like to hold my guns loose so they roll in my hand." :mrgreen: The gun you have could have limits according to your strength and ability to control it.
If you tell me you shoot 1" groups with a 4" titanium .44 at 50 yards, I will accuse you of writing Obama's speeches.
Every platform you stuff cartridges in can not be made to shoot. Want to have fun, come shoot Whitworth's little .500 Linebaugh! :drinks: I will bet a lot of Jack Daniels you can't keep it on paper. Neither of us can do it.
Here is the little beauty.

[44man]

How about this, a .500 with 700 gr boolits!!!!!
Have to be missing brain parts.

[44man]

.500 Alaskan and then results.

[crabo]

I know that for me, I can shoot my best groups with my Luepold 2.5X8 on my revolvers and off the bench. Once I find a load that I like, I put on a red dot. The group size grows. Then if I shoot open sights, the group grows again. The gun and load is still capable of the same group, but I am the limiting factor. The testing with the scope shows me, and gives me confidence in my gun and load, so when I miss, I know it is my fault.

I cannot shoot my pistols offhand with the scope because of the weight, which is why I like my Ultradots. I would suggest that shooters shoot a round of Hunter's Pistol to show yourself your practical capabilities.

[TCLouis]

The only variable I seldom change is primer. I try to have a primer supply on hand (served me well during the recent period of shortage), so Winchester of the appropriate size it is.

Then I vary powder and load level.

I am willing to bet that using only one primer brand cheats me out of some better shooting loads.

Shooting to develop an accurate load is one reason I have handloading gear.

The significant changes in group size and shape are fun to watch develop and when one hit the "sweet spots" (some boolit/powder combos have more than one) it is success in a picture . . . .

ONE hole in the target.

[Blammer]

Lloyd, after reading your post I can understand how you could be frustrated.

I think using the short barreled guns with no scope is a big hinderance to shooting small groups.

I know I would NEVER be able to shoot a 1" group with a 4" handgun and no scope. I'm just not that good a shot.

I use a 7.5" scoped RSRH or a 10" contender with scope and can get good groups at 25 yds. They are sorta boring so I shoot at 50 yds and 100 yds with them. (plus that's the range I'll be hunting deer at, so to me it makes sense to practice at those ranges.)

If I were shooting 4 or 6" guns open sighted at 25 yds I'd be very happy with 2" groups. Why? I can't see the sights, age and eyes thing. That's just me.

As far as boolits go. I would seriously look into a round flat point or a trun cone design for accuracy. I have looked through many of my targets and discovered that my more accurate boolits and loads are with truncone and round flat designs. Keith's are the least accurate for me, others this may not be true, just my observations.

Good luck.

[44man]

I know that for me, I can shoot my best groups with my Luepold 2.5X8 on my revolvers and off the bench. Once I find a load that I like, I put on a red dot. The group size grows. Then if I shoot open sights, the group grows again. The gun and load is still capable of the same group, but I am the limiting factor. The testing with the scope shows me, and gives me confidence in my gun and load, so when I miss, I know it is my fault.

I cannot shoot my pistols offhand with the scope because of the weight, which is why I like my Ultradots. I would suggest that shooters shoot a round of Hunter's Pistol to show yourself your practical capabilities.
Got that right, hunters pistol is TOUGH.
But it is not the scope weight, it is being able to see the cross hairs bounce all over that ruins shooting. No magnification is always best.
Trigger control is better if you don't see all the junk going on.
Believe it or not, if I shoot open sights off hand at 25 yards, I do much better with one hand then I do with two. I have better trigger control.
For the red dot you need the exact right target so you can center the dot. Work on your target and see what you get. At long range I find it better to sit the dot right on top of a can, never a bulls eye.

[HeavyMetal]

Lloyd:

Buy 25 yards of 1 inch pipe

put target at the end of said pipe

insert muzzle into pipe

pull trigger 6 times

1 inch 25 yard group!

With practise you can do this all the way out to 600 yards but I've found holding up that much pipe is really to much work.

Now that we've all had a laugh I will suggest a real idea: Alloy make up!

Did some testing back in my early shooting days (1975) and found that two metals seemed to shoot the best "real" clip on wheel weights and linotype. Surprisingly both alloys shot the same size groups and both were water quenched right out of the mold.

I played with several other combonations and found a few that worked as well but none better!

Currently working with my standard alloy which is 92% lead 2% tin and 6% antimony, as best as I can tell. I quench everything in water, except my 38 wadcutter loads, and have been real happy.

Do I shoot one inch groups? once in awhile!

Do I try to shoot 1 inch groups? No!

I do try to get the best out of what I happen to be shooting at the time and yes I have shot the ocasional tight group, which is always fun, but trying to make every pistol, or rifle, shoot into one inch at any range is lesson in frustration as you have found out.

Play with your boolit alloy and see if you get what you want.

I will also remind you that shooting is supposed to give you fun not an Ulcer.

[357maximum]

Lloyd I know it is a yooper tradition and all, but have you ever used a bench instead of the truck window as a rest?:kidding:

Folks like BaBore make us mere mortals feel inadequate, just the way it is. Think it makes you feel less than via the internet, try watching it in person. After seeing someone like Babore shoot a revolver I am afraid to break mine out for fear of looking THAT BAD.

[Bass Ackward]

People want groups. And there is a ton of points here that can be made here. Sometimes we get too serious that can ruin what we are trying to do. Here is something to laugh at.

This was this morning. I was denied permission to shoot off the bench until I got the tomatoes staked. My only permissible excuse was for a bathroom break. Range is 50 yards off the porch, I was upstairs out the bathroom window multi-tasking. :grin: Two hands, wrist supported over a towel (which needs cleaned now by the way :shock: ) . I read John Taffin liked 7.5 grains of Unique for everything, so I said why not and just swapped bullets. Those slugs were the Lee 200-RF, 240 GBPB of Bob's, 429215, and my 250 TCPB. Some were 20-1 and need better lube in this heat and some were ACWW +2% tin. No plan, just what I had on hand.

Not one inch, but shooting at 50 yards with opens, you can't tell if it's the load or if it's you. These are 2 1/2 to 4 at 50. Last group leaded or it showed real promise. Grandson got in the spirit before I could get downstairs, so there are some 357 holes in the center targets to ignore. Click the picture to read the details.

[StarMetal]

People want groups. And there is a ton of points here that can be made here. Sometimes we get too serious that can ruin what we are trying to do. Here is something to laugh at.

This was this morning. I was denied permission to shoot off the bench until I got the tomatoes staked. My only permissible excuse was for a bathroom break. Range is 50 yards off the porch, I was upstairs out the bathroom window multi-tasking. :grin: Two hands, wrist supported over a towel (which needs cleaned now by the way :shock: ) . I read John Taffin liked 7.5 grains of Unique for everything, so I said why not and just swapped bullets. Those slugs were the Lee 200-RF, 240 GBPB of Bob's, 429215, and my 250 TCPB. Some were 20-1 and need better lube in this heat and some were ACWW +2% tin. No plan, just what I had on hand.

Not one inch, but shooting at 50 yards with opens, you can't tell if it's the load or if it's you. These are 2 1/2 to 4 at 50. Last group leaded or it showed real promise. Grandson got in the spirit before I could get downstairs, so there are some 357 holes in the center targets to ignore. Click the picture to read the details.

John,

I see you finally stepped up to quality targets such as I might use.:drinks:

[Maven]

Shooting small groups is a bit like fishing and photography in that we only mention the "keepers" and not those that got away or the ill-composed, out of focus, or poorly exposed shots. And that's what counts, since they give us [so much] pleasure.

[44man]

If any one of you came here and I put a beer can at 200 yards and a spot to aim at to allow for drop, put you on the bench, I am willing to bet you will hit the can. Might take a few shots while I hit you with a billy club but that is the confidence I have in my revolvers.
Can I instruct you on trigger and recoil control??? Oh, I can make a mess out of you! :Fire:

[Bass Ackward]

John,

I see you finally stepped up to quality targets such as I might use.:drinks:


You might say that I had a ..... window of opportunity and I had to geter done. :grin:

[Frank]

Lloyd Smale says
don't know how some of you guys do it
475 sighted in.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2359
45-70. Look, with a half grain more how it opened up. Now 45-70 is sighted in like above.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2360

Total rounds expended: 15

[RayinNH]

They're using fisherman's rulers LLoyd. From a Ransom Rest, sure. Hand held or resting on bags, most cannot. Move your sight a few thousandth any direction and there goes your group. I can't do it and I've never seen anyone else do it a the range. With a scope that's a different thing...Ray

[Dale53]

I have found it no great trick to regularly (not always but regularly) get 1" groups from .38 Special, .357 Magnum. 44 Special/Magnum, and .45 Colt off a Ransom Rest. I talked our club, years ago, to investing in a Ransom Rest. However, you need a really solid base bench to tie the Rest down so you get consistent results. Our club bench is failing and we have allotted the money for a new one.

A good man with a scoped gun can do about as well off a bench as a Ransom Rest will give you.

A Ransom Rest needs to be operated consistently if you wish to have good results - it is NOT an automatic win. However, with some effort, that can be done. I have spent the time necessary to learn to use the RR and it has paid off in good results with my own cast bullets.

I can no longer see open sights good enough to brag about my feats (such as they were) with them. However, with Red Dots or scoped sights and a good bench I can still shoot well.

I don't really enjoy bench shooting OR Ransom Rest shooting. If you are going to get the most out of your revolver or pistol, it is work that needs to be done.

As soon as I get a decent load, then I shoot standing two handed. That is where 99% of my shooting is done.

It is no shame for me to admit that Red Dots and Scopes have saved the day for me.

FWIW
Dale53

[gon2shoot]

Well sir, I have been shooting pistols for a few years, in the mid 70s, I shot a lot of compition shoots in Az. My cal. of choice then was the 44 mag, and I went through several.

I had some one-hole groups at 100 yds then, but not on a regular basis, more like 2 1/2 to three inch when I had good eyes.

Without going into a (very)long story of my exploits, my shooting is now controlled by a 6" plate. Whichever gun I want to use has to put 6 rds in a 6" plate at the range I plan to hunt.

Not real exciting, but realistic.

[MtGun44]

Dale,

Get and try the Lyman Hawkeye aperture device. It is a miracle for pistol shooting with
irons and old eyes. If you have never tried it you will not believe the improvement. fussy and looks
pretty dorky, but boy does it work.
I have never loaned mine to a shooter over 40 that didn't say "Where can I get one?" as
soon as he used it. I keep a few new ones around to sell now.

Bill

[Frank]

Dale53 said
As soon as I get a decent load, then I shoot standing two handed. That is where 99% of my shooting is done.

Same here. Offhand is what I like best. That's what I'm working up to. Last time out I did a test, tired I fired both BFR's, 475 & 45-70 at a can at 50 yds. 3" for both groups. I love it when the dot is wiggling all over. Allows for some good concentrating to keep it steady.

[Dale53]

MtGun44;
I have had a merit adjustable disc for many, many years. It does help a good bit (actually, for a long time it helped a LOT).

I have lost most of the vision in my right eye (I shoot right handed) and I had to shift to my left eye. Surprisingly, it only took me a few sessions at the range to adapt.

Now, when I need to shoot iron sights, I use a pair of clip on, flip up, lenses along WITH the merit disk. That allows me to not only focus on the front sight but the merit allows me to sharpen up the bullseye too. The neat thing, is once I have quit shooting, I can flip up the lenses and I'm back to my normal prescription glasses.

Ain't old age a bummer? On the other hand, it beats the alternative hands down!:mrgreen:

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

My eyes are getting tired. I can see still 2020 at distance but up close is a joke and theres no glasses ive found that allow sight work and still let me see a target so no doubt thats effecting things. Im not going to use a dot or scope till im blind so thats out and im not going to start wheelbarrowing around long barreled sixguns so thats out. No doubt like was said the 4 inch guns are a bit tougher to shoot 1 inch groups out of but when i find that one inch group it proves to me that there not impossible to shoot well and thats not the problem. I guess to some extent i dont buy into the short barreled big bores recoiling more then a long one My 4 inch 500 linebaughs allways seemed to have less recoil then a 5.5 inch gun. I think it has something to do with the fact that the bullet is in the barrel a shorter period of time and that reduces muzzle flip. I also agree with redneckdan in the fact that dwell time in a barrel can really effect your off hand shooting. Most people ive watched shoot do better off hand with a short barreled gun even when the target is out to 500 yards. I guess ill keep muddling along shooting a 1000 rounds a week trying to find the golden load. Its a **** job but it sure beats my old job!!!!

[runfiverun]

my best group shooting 44 is with a 10" bbl.
it mostly wears the spare 445 8" bbl, but when it's shoot group time i put on the 10"er.
if my eyes get much worse over the distance, i may do as i have suggested to others and simpy buy a 25' bbl and cut out the waver.
but the shroud might be the limiting factor.

[Bass Ackward]

Lloyd,

I waited to see where this was going to go and it didn't. So AGAIN I will be the devils advocate and bad guy.

I'd say that Buddy Al gave you some excellent advice. It's excellent because you won't read it here.

For guys that shoot multiple guns, a GC is a necessity. It's even worse for guys that shoot a lot. Each of those conditions requires your time of which there is only so much. I don't waste time any more with PB "load development". I might pick a load and shoot them as I did here, but I get what I get until I got 2000 rounds through the gun. Then I might try if I still like the gun.

I can get a GC design to shoot fairly quickly. How many guys can have 50 molds for 50 guns little alone the right bullet molded up on hand in the right hardness / mix with the right lube in the lubricisor when it is needed? The odds get pretty FANTASTIC!

Learn to love that little GC baby. It made Thompson a national hero. A hero that was never spoken about because the BIG names scoffed at GCs. Real men don't say they are sorry, or eat quiche, or shoot GCs. It just isn't done.

Do guys embellish their groups? Yes. The REAL bragging rights comes from superbly shooting PB. Cause it is the pinnacle of difficulty. It ruined an industry when all handgun ammo was PB. And those companies were too stupid to figure out that all they needed was a bigger / smaller bullet, or a harder / softer bullet, or Willie's Wonder lube.

So it gives us status and credibility here. Except that people can't reproduce that and the SCREAM for targets shows that they want to find that PB disciple, that person that they can trust, the guy who passes on the one secret that makes everything possible to lead them to the promised land.

In the end, maybe one gun in ten can shoot PB well. Maybe 1 guy in 10 will find that magic design. That magic lube. And maybe 1 guy in 10 can shoot 1" groups. Rarely do those combinations meet up for the multiple gun / caliber man. Just doesn't happen. That gas check frees you from bondage.

Just like this boards deception or denial about leading, we can add PB over accuracy claims to that list as well. It is the absolute WORST recommendation we make to beginning casters. What causes us to lie beyond credibility is that we don't realize that we don't have to lie. You don't need one inch groups for all guns or loads. But that statement too is taboo.

But you been around long enough that you should have know all of this Lloyd. You have been believing what you read here. No rules.

[jh45gun]

I now shoot at objects instead of paper once I get my gun sighted in. To me that builds more confidence. If I can bounce a pop can or a plastic bottle around all afternoon it sure is better than looking at a some what larger group on paper and thinking your not shooting well. For whats its worth with a scope I can shoot them magic groups same with a red dot at closer ranges. With open sights they open up just cannot see the sights as well and as the man said move a bit with open sights and there goes your group. Plus I find it easier to shoot at a object instead of paper with a short gun.

[Marvin S]

You might check into Lasik eye surgery they can now correct for near and far in some cases. Its hard to hit what you can't see. I know glasses made a big difference for me.

[Blammer]

Here is one of my very bestest groups ever, and yea the one that is out of the group is because I moved my point of aim because I thought I was missing the target all the time. Yep you heard me, I thougt the last 4 shots I missed the target completely, quiet a surprise when I walked up to see the target.
Can I do this again? NO! I doubt it. But it sure is fun to show off.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/5-44shots226grNEI.jpg

Here is a typical group for me.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/44mag-2.jpg

But I occasionally get a really good group when doing load developement and then use that one for my "main" accurate load.

Here is an example of a really good test group.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/270gr41mag.jpg

Then here is a practice session with said accurate load.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/41mag100yds.jpg

oh yea, all of these targets were shot using sandbags and a rest and a scope. :)

[Thumbcocker]

Lloyd;

You have far more loading and shooting experience than I probably ever will so I won't presume to tell you anything about shooting or loading. I would pose this question to anyone looking for "the" load in a particular caliber. Is there a factory load that works well across the board in most guns of that particular caliber? It stands to reason that if there was that load would dominate the market.

For most of my relaoding career I was constantly looking for super loads for the given caliber. It was very frustrating because guns are individuals. It started making loading and shooting unfun. I love my .44's and shoot a lot of 900-1000 fps loads with fast to medium powder. I have settled on a few utility loads with Kieth boolits (because I have a 4 cavity mould for it) and shoot mostly those. 6.5 of red dot and 7.0 of 700x are a couple of favorites. I get much more anal about hunting loads.

Are theses the best loads for all my .44's. Certainly not but I get to shoot a lot more by having a standard load. At this point in my life I am very short on time for any type of recreation so I compromise. Handguns with iron sights are by nature comprimises between portability, power, and accuracy. I have found a few loads that give performance that is acceptable to me in most of my .44's. By acceptable I mean they shoot acceptably well considering my ability, the gun, my time, and the target I am shooting at. I have more fun shooting instead of being dissatisfied with holes on targets. It has taken me a while to get here but the idea is to have some fun.

I have always wondered how much a person could learn using one gun at a time and really learing just that gun. Alloy, powders, primers, brass, seating, boolits, sizing diamater, and all the
other variables. It could be a lot of fun or drive a person bonkers depending on your personality.

Just some thoughts from a person with a fraction of your expereince.

[HollowPoint]

I've owned more than a few hand guns in my time.

It is very possible that during that time, I reloaded and fired enough that one of those pistols and reload combinations was capable of those elusive 1" groups but, not so long as I was the one doing the shooting.

I used to spend alot of my time and money chasing those 1" groups but, it didn't take long for it to become more of a job than an enjoyable pastime. I already have a job. I don't need another one .

Now days, if my pistols and reload combinations will hit a coyote at 50 yards I'm happy with that. It makes it all enjoyable again.

I just like to shoot.

HollowPoint

[44man]

Blammer, some great groups! :cbpour:
But you can see what soft lead and fast powder did to your Unique 50 yd group. Size a little larger, keep making the boolit harder while you test and watch the group get smaller and smaller.
See how 2400 is much better?

[44man]

Lloyd;


I have always wondered how much a person could learn using one gun at a time and really learing just that gun. Alloy, powders, primers, brass, seating, boolits, sizing diamater, and all the
other variables. It could be a lot of fun or drive a person bonkers depending on your personality.

Just some thoughts from a person with a fraction of your expereince.
Not so, I work with all kinds and calibers of revolvers and most holds true for all of them. Only twist rate and barrel length can need a change. I load my friends rounds or they load them here and they all shoot the same.
The same process works in the .357, .454, .44, .45, .475 and 45-70.

[maddog2020]

I love my 3 44's but what not to love about a ruger?
s super black hawks, and a super red hawk with 0 1/2' barrel.
I get accuracy I can hit and blow up bowling pis at 100yrds
also have 454/45lc and its a cast bullet lover

[45 2.1]

Lloyd,

I waited to see where this was going to go and it didn't. So AGAIN I will be the devils advocate and bad guy.

I'd say that Buddy Al gave you some excellent advice. It's excellent because you won't read it here.

For guys that shoot multiple guns, a GC is a necessity. It's even worse for guys that shoot a lot. Each of those conditions requires your time of which there is only so much. I don't waste time any more with PB "load development". I might pick a load and shoot them as I did here, but I get what I get until I got 2000 rounds through the gun. Then I might try if I still like the gun.

I can get a GC design to shoot fairly quickly. How many guys can have 50 molds for 50 guns little alone the right bullet molded up on hand in the right hardness / mix with the right lube in the lubricisor when it is needed? The odds get pretty FANTASTIC!

Learn to love that little GC baby. It made Thompson a national hero. A hero that was never spoken about because the BIG names scoffed at GCs. Real men don't say they are sorry, or eat quiche, or shoot GCs. It just isn't done.

Do guys embellish their groups? Yes. The REAL bragging rights comes from superbly shooting PB. Cause it is the pinnacle of difficulty. It ruined an industry when all handgun ammo was PB. And those companies were too stupid to figure out that all they needed was a bigger / smaller bullet, or a harder / softer bullet, or Willie's Wonder lube.

So it gives us status and credibility here. Except that people can't reproduce that and the SCREAM for targets shows that they want to find that PB disciple, that person that they can trust, the guy who passes on the one secret that makes everything possible to lead them to the promised land.

In the end, maybe one gun in ten can shoot PB well. Maybe 1 guy in 10 will find that magic design. That magic lube. And maybe 1 guy in 10 can shoot 1" groups. Rarely do those combinations meet up for the multiple gun / caliber man. Just doesn't happen. That gas check frees you from bondage.

Just like this boards deception or denial about leading, we can add PB over accuracy claims to that list as well. It is the absolute WORST recommendation we make to beginning casters. What causes us to lie beyond credibility is that we don't realize that we don't have to lie. You don't need one inch groups for all guns or loads. But that statement too is taboo.

But you been around long enough that you should have know all of this Lloyd. You have been believing what you read here. No rules.

Pretty good joke there John................................

[Bret4207]

Back- Got a little burr under the saddle, eh?

[maddog2020]

I like my 41 mag, get great expansion on my cast bullets, and will drop any deer I shoot, and btw no cuts in the scalp

[Blammer]

Blammer, some great groups! :cbpour:
But you can see what soft lead and fast powder did to your Unique 50 yd group. Size a little larger, keep making the boolit harder while you test and watch the group get smaller and smaller.
See how 2400 is much better?

those boolits I cast I forgot what alloy I had in the pot until after I cast up a bunch, being it was softer lead than I usually use I just relegated those boolits to "plinker practice" loads. (also note the first two 44 mag targets each use a totally diff boolit and powder, just the "accuracy" portion was what I was generally pointing out.)

I put unique behind those because I just was practicing, and yes I do like 2400 the best so far with my AC WW's.

[44man]

I admit to just using water dropped WW's for plinking loads with 231 and Unique. They are bottle and can accurate to 50 yards. I just use 7 gr of powder---HEY, what do you expect from a cheapskate! :Fire:
Serious accuracy work with fast powders never has equaled slow powders but as I got harder, accuracy increased. I don't see a need for super plinking load accuracy anyway. Cheaper to just use WW's.
Super accuracy is only needed for long range and hunting. Never, ever will I give up accuracy for hunting even if the shot is 10 yards.
I do not bother with light load work unless someone has a problem and is the only reason for my testing. It really opened my eyes over the last few years, seeing what fast powder will do to a boolit and some is not pretty. I feel no tests are a waste and it has added to knowledge that moves into slow powders too.
But Blammer, I just love those four shots in one hole that you shot, it helps prove that the revolver is just a wonderful machine. My other guns are safe queens, nothing I love more then a revolver.

[Suo Gan]

Got a custom Les Bauer 1911 that I cannot shoot for the life of me, can't figure a load out for beans. I have an old Colt Combat Commander a military buddy built for me and it will shoot most anything I load in it well, and several loads within an inch!! When I take it to the range it draws a crowd. The Les Bauer makes me look silly, and I can tell people are embarrassed for me. It is a gun/load thing I reckon. Don't ya think?????

Wanna shoot for pinks? I'll be using the Colt.

[44man]

Got a custom Les Bauer 1911 that I cannot shoot for the life of me, can't figure a load out for beans. I have an old Colt Combat Commander a military buddy built for me and it will shoot most anything I load in it well, and several loads within an inch!! When I take it to the range it draws a crowd. The Les Bauer makes me look silly, and I can tell people are embarrassed for me. It is a gun/load thing I reckon. Don't ya think?????

Wanna shoot for pinks? I'll be using the Colt.
Luck of the draw. Some guns just don't have it and I would complain to the maker and have him make it right. Money for a gun does not make it shoot, seen a few Freedoms that spray shots. Others are tack drivers.

[Edubya]

I have a friend that can out shoot me with every gun that I own. Anytime I want to test out a load, I'll invite him to come to the range. He shot a 25yd, 8 round group of 1" +/- a hair, with my Dan Wesson 1911 after I had shot only two mags through it. I have just just learned to accept it, I can't hold a light to him but I'll keep on trying.

EW

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
Well first get a Dan Wesson (that was not abused).
Turn the barrel in until a .001 gauge will bind the cylinder rotation.
Replace the shroud and nut and tighten the nut well. You may have to play with that barrel nut BUT a Loose nut will never shoot good. TOO tight may only break the wrench.
Now if you were blessed to get a .41 mag try a 210-220 GC with 21-22 grains W296. Shoot from Creedmore.
Every Dan 41 I have / had done that with will shoot less than 1" at 50 yards.
I cannot do this standing or sitting or from a bench.
I understand the 44´s are as good.. never owned one.
My 414 SM Dan did not yet = that goal.
My 357 Dan with a 10" barrel will with one 180 load.
My 375 SM will do so with a 255 gc .
I do not have a Ruger revolver that will = this but a couple .41´s come close.
NO S&W I own will do this.
NO Colt I own will do this.
No Taurus I own will do this.
I hope the BFR .454 I rescently bought will.
Again I can only shoot this well from the Creedmore.
Mike in Peru [smilie=2:

[frank505]

i cant shoot from a bench, much rather sit against the jeep tire. dont shoot much if any paper for lack of time. doesnt seem to matter much when i am killing picket pins with a 45 and 310k or 335k.
change your die set one die at a time and see what happens just pick a decent load and start changing dies. better yet get the heck out of da up and move here before we disown you. he he

[fecmech]

I was doing a little practicing for our weekly Hunters pistol silhouette and when I finished decided to shoot 100 yds off the bench for group. Now this is only a .38 spl and not a .44 but the same principles apply. My .44 will not shoot this good but will do 2-2.5" @50 yds. This .38 will easily do 1"@25 yds as these groups at 100 show. Average for 3 six shot groups is 2.79" at 100 yds so that works out to a little less than 3/4"@25. As previous posters have mentioned for serious group shooting you either need young eyes and long barrels or scopes or dot sights!

[Dale53]

fecnech;
Excellent results!

Dale53

[AzShooter]

Nice groups. I have a Smith 627 that shoots great. I'm still in the process of working over my 686. I ordered a 180 grain mold from LPT that has really brought my groups together. Takes a lot of time and a lot of shooting to get the best groups.

Cylinder throughts have to be all the same. Bullets are all sized .001 over throat diameter and this has proven to make a big difference. I normally shoot Solo 1000 which is a very fast powder. Lately I've been using Unique and pushing the limits.

My best group has been with 5..4 grains of Unique in a .38 case with an OAL of 1.58. Playing with OAL makes a big difference. Changing it to 1.63 opened the groups up an inch. My testing is done off a bench with iron siights double action. I need to have the old 686 drilled for a scope mount.

The 627 I use a Leupold 4 X scope for development but for competition I use iron sightes in USPSA and ICORE. Funny how most guys just want to be able to hit the 8 in A-zone at 50 yards and are happy. I want to be able to hit 2 - 2 1/2 inches from 50 from the bench so that I can hit the 4 inch X zone at 50 double action . I'm still working on it If I can keep them all in the A I'd be happy at a match but my goal is for X's

Unique is doing well but I may change to Blue Dot for a little slower powder. I'm only shooting 5 inch guns and I want all the powder to burn in that barrel length. Blue Dot may not because I see a lot of flame coming from the barrel during night shoots..

[Lloyd Smale]

bass excellent post! Im amazed you havent got a bunch of flak from guys claiming gas checks are nessisary. I know in my shooting gas checked bullets hands down out preform plain base bullets. Enough so that i dont bat an eyelash at buying gas checks. Like you said if your a guy that only has one handgun and has 5 years to work up loads for that gun im sure you can find an accurate plain base load. Ive done it myself. But when your sitting on a bench with 4 differnt guns trying to find a load that works in all or most of them a gas check design takes alot of work out of it. Personaly id rather have a load that shot 1.5 inch out of 4 guns then a load that shoots 1 inch out of only one. Its nice to crank out a 1000 rounds that you can use in about any gun and know there going to shoot well. Ive got 9 differnt 44 mags and 7 45 colts right now and keep and loading seperate ammo for all of them can be a pain and spending months with one gun on the bench just takes away from standing on your own two feet and actually getting better with a sixgun. Like you i dont need one inch accuracy for everything. For most hunting and shooting chores a gun that shoots 2 inch at 25 is plenty accurate enough but i just feel better in the hunting field with a load that has shot at least 2-3 inch at 50. Thanks for being one of the honest ones!
Lloyd,

I waited to see where this was going to go and it didn't. So AGAIN I will be the devils advocate and bad guy.

I'd say that Buddy Al gave you some excellent advice. It's excellent because you won't read it here.

For guys that shoot multiple guns, a GC is a necessity. It's even worse for guys that shoot a lot. Each of those conditions requires your time of which there is only so much. I don't waste time any more with PB "load development". I might pick a load and shoot them as I did here, but I get what I get until I got 2000 rounds through the gun. Then I might try if I still like the gun.

I can get a GC design to shoot fairly quickly. How many guys can have 50 molds for 50 guns little alone the right bullet molded up on hand in the right hardness / mix with the right lube in the lubricisor when it is needed? The odds get pretty FANTASTIC!

Learn to love that little GC baby. It made Thompson a national hero. A hero that was never spoken about because the BIG names scoffed at GCs. Real men don't say they are sorry, or eat quiche, or shoot GCs. It just isn't done.

Do guys embellish their groups? Yes. The REAL bragging rights comes from superbly shooting PB. Cause it is the pinnacle of difficulty. It ruined an industry when all handgun ammo was PB. And those companies were too stupid to figure out that all they needed was a bigger / smaller bullet, or a harder / softer bullet, or Willie's Wonder lube.

So it gives us status and credibility here. Except that people can't reproduce that and the SCREAM for targets shows that they want to find that PB disciple, that person that they can trust, the guy who passes on the one secret that makes everything possible to lead them to the promised land.

In the end, maybe one gun in ten can shoot PB well. Maybe 1 guy in 10 will find that magic design. That magic lube. And maybe 1 guy in 10 can shoot 1" groups. Rarely do those combinations meet up for the multiple gun / caliber man. Just doesn't happen. That gas check frees you from bondage.

Just like this boards deception or denial about leading, we can add PB over accuracy claims to that list as well. It is the absolute WORST recommendation we make to beginning casters. What causes us to lie beyond credibility is that we don't realize that we don't have to lie. You don't need one inch groups for all guns or loads. But that statement too is taboo.

But you been around long enough that you should have know all of this Lloyd. You have been believing what you read here. No rules.

[Lloyd Smale]

Id love to have it done but checked into it a bit and found that the operation for far sighted people is much more expensive then near sighted. Medicare wont pay for a penny of it either so im about out of luck there. Few more years and im going to have to put those toliet paper tube things on my sixguns like 44man and the other REAL old guys like him have to use ;)
You might check into Lasik eye surgery they can now correct for near and far in some cases. Its hard to hit what you can't see. I know glasses made a big difference for me.

[warf73]

Few more years and im going to have to put those toliet paper tube things on my sixguns like 44man and the other REAL old guys like him have to use ;)

Thats funny

[Bret4207]

bass excellent post! Im amazed you havent got a bunch of flak from guys claiming gas checks are nessisary. I know in my shooting gas checked bullets hands down out preform plain base bullets. Enough so that i dont bat an eyelash at buying gas checks. Like you said if your a guy that only has one handgun and has 5 years to work up loads for that gun im sure you can find an accurate plain base load. Ive done it myself. But when your sitting on a bench with 4 differnt guns trying to find a load that works in all or most of them a gas check design takes alot of work out of it. Personaly id rather have a load that shot 1.5 inch out of 4 guns then a load that shoots 1 inch out of only one. Its nice to crank out a 1000 rounds that you can use in about any gun and know there going to shoot well. Ive got 9 differnt 44 mags and 7 45 colts right now and keep and loading seperate ammo for all of them can be a pain and spending months with one gun on the bench just takes away from standing on your own two feet and actually getting better with a sixgun. Like you i dont need one inch accuracy for everything. For most hunting and shooting chores a gun that shoots 2 inch at 25 is plenty accurate enough but i just feel better in the hunting field with a load that has shot at least 2-3 inch at 50. Thanks for being one of the honest ones!


There's no shame in using a GC, despite what Uncle Elmer wrote. It's not a cure all, but it sure makes things easier. I'm hoping to be able to snag one of those GC makers that lets you put the check on a PB design. I have a 30 Plinker GB that won;t shoot for beans in anything, might be the answer.

[StarMetal]

There's no shame in using a GC, despite what Uncle Elmer wrote. It's not a cure all, but it sure makes things easier. I'm hoping to be able to snag one of those GC makers that lets you put the check on a PB design. I have a 30 Plinker GB that won;t shoot for beans in anything, might be the answer.

That tool, or should I say modification to your sizer die, isn't a cure all. In many instances you have to shoot a higher velocity to reap the benefits of it. I make one for my 30 caliber bullet I shoot in a variety of handguns and in all instances in all the guns it is worse then the flat base version of the bullet. I simply wasn't driving them fast enough, nor do I want to out of some of those various hand guns.

[cptinjeff]

There is a POSTAL match going on right now that some of you 1" at 25 yds guys might want to get into.:razz:


I've been a professional fishing guide for 25 years.


...."it aint the size of the fish, but the size of the story that counts":bigsmyl2:

or

...."release the fish, save the memory....its always bigger!"







btw....just trying to add some levity here and not infering anything else. In other words, I'm attempting humor. AND trying to drum up some participation in the match!!!

[44man]

Since a gas check is there to take the rifling, not protect the base, I have doubts about pop can checks. Same as wads, what do they do to allow a boolit to take the twist without skidding?
Some of that stuff just aids in lead scraping which should not be needed anyway.
A wad might buffer a dead soft boolit and help prevent lead from squirting out the gap but I really doubt that too.
I shoot tons of PB from all kinds of revolvers and they are as easy to use as a GC boolit. A few recovered boolits will tell you right away if you need to toughen the alloy to stop rear band skid (notice I did not say harden but they will be harder anyway.)
I have had them to 1800 fps in the 45-70 by accident because of 4198 pressure excursions. 4759 is sooo much easier on boolits.
Insistence on soft lead and fast powders just plain needs a gas check. Even half hard boolits driven too fast with slow powder will need one.
Remember the old Harvey Prot X zinc disk? It did not aid spin and skid, it was used to scrape out lead caused by skid.
Let's say you find the perfect alloy for 1400 fps with a PB then want to shoot 900 fps for fun. What makes anyone think you can't use the same alloy? Who figured out the boolit should be softer for the lower velocity? Guess what, faster powder is worse and the boolit should be a lot tougher.
I find it hard to explain that expanding the base of a boolit with thump will not allow it to take the spin and it will still skid and upset into an entirely different shape then what was cast. Makes for great lead mining too.
Gas checks do not protect the base itself, they protect the rear drive band.
If anyone thinks a gas checked soft boolit can be driven hard and fast from a rifle needs to recover boolits. The lead must be harder so the thing starts to take the spin BEFORE the base is reached.
The end all is that if you know what is going on you can make a PB shoot just as easy until you reach a pressure or velocity that requires a check. Or a boolit a little too soft.
The gun has rifling so why does everyone want to turn it into a smooth bore? [smilie=s:
Look at recovered jacketed with the nice even land marks all the way to the nose. You will play heck doing that with lead but the marks on the base MUST be rifling size for BOTH PB and GC.
If you want to shoot PB, just start out with a better alloy.

[44man]

There is a POSTAL match going on right now that some of you 1" at 25 yds guys might want to get into.:razz:


I've been a professional fishing guide for 25 years.


...."it aint the size of the fish, but the size of the story that counts":bigsmyl2:

or

...."release the fish, save the memory....its always bigger!"







btw....just trying to add some levity here and not infering anything else. In other words, I'm attempting humor.
Been wanting to but my knuckle is still swollen and hurting. I can't even bend my finger yet. I woke up with it and my whole hand swelled the next few days. It might have been from pulling the rope starters on tillers I had to fix or a spider bite.
No way I can shoot yet. I sent for some DMSO to see if it will work.
At one point my knuckle was 1-3/8" wide---OUCH! :veryconfu

[StarMetal]

Since a gas check is there to take the rifling, not protect the base, I have doubts about pop can checks. Same as wads, what do they do to allow a boolit to take the twist without skidding?
Some of that stuff just aids in lead scraping which should not be needed anyway.
A wad might buffer a dead soft boolit and help prevent lead from squirting out the gap but I really doubt that too.
I shoot tons of PB from all kinds of revolvers and they are as easy to use as a GC boolit. A few recovered boolits will tell you right away if you need to toughen the alloy to stop rear band skid (notice I did not say harden but they will be harder anyway.)
I have had them to 1800 fps in the 45-70 by accident because of 4198 pressure excursions. 4759 is sooo much easier on boolits.
Insistence on soft lead and fast powders just plain needs a gas check. Even half hard boolits driven too fast with slow powder will need one.
Remember the old Harvey Prot X zinc disk? It did not aid spin and skid, it was used to scrape out lead caused by skid.
Let's say you find the perfect alloy for 1400 fps with a PB then want to shoot 900 fps for fun. What makes anyone think you can't use the same alloy? Who figured out the boolit should be softer for the lower velocity? Guess what, faster powder is worse and the boolit should be a lot tougher.
I find it hard to explain that expanding the base of a boolit with thump will not allow it to take the spin and it will still skid and upset into an entirely different shape then what was cast. Makes for great lead mining too.
Gas checks do not protect the base itself, they protect the rear drive band.
If anyone thinks a gas checked soft boolit can be driven hard and fast from a rifle needs to recover boolits. The lead must be harder so the thing starts to take the spin BEFORE the base is reached.
The end all is that if you know what is going on you can make a PB shoot just as easy until you reach a pressure or velocity that requires a check. Or a boolit a little too soft.
The gun has rifling so why does everyone want to turn it into a smooth bore? [smilie=s:
Look at recovered jacketed with the nice even land marks all the way to the nose. You will play heck doing that with lead but the marks on the base MUST be rifling size for BOTH PB and GC.
If you want to shoot PB, just start out with a better alloy.

Since a gas check is there to take the rifling.....................:killingpc:groner::gro ner:

Geesh Jim, it's obvious you don't know the true reason of a gas check.

[fecmech]

Few more years and im going to have to put those toliet paper tube things on my sixguns like 44man and the other REAL old guys like him have to use ;)
Hey I resemble that remark!

[44man]

Since a gas check is there to take the rifling.....................:killingpc:groner::gro ner:

Geesh Jim, it's obvious you don't know the true reason of a gas check.
Explain then. The gas check is there to stop skid and allow the boolit to take the rifling, thus keeping a base seal. This is the only way to stop gas leakage when other things are not right.
It is not magic and still can be exceeded.
If you tell us it is to stop bases from melting, I will have to laugh at you! :mrgreen:
Bases do not melt from powder heat but high pressure can turn boolits into globs. A check can help at the base under high pressure but what about the rest of the boolit? Checks do not cure slump.

[45 2.1]

Explain then. The gas check is there to stop skid and allow the boolit to take the rifling, thus keeping a base seal. This is the only way to stop gas leakage Actually it isn't, but a GC can be purchased and used easier than most of the other options. when other things are not right.
It is not magic and still can be exceeded.
If you tell us it is to stop bases from melting, I will have to laugh at you! :mrgreen:
Bases do not melt from powder heat but high pressure can turn boolits into globs. A check can help at the base under high pressure but what about the rest of the boolit? Checks do not cure slump.

You'll note some of the works of Dr. Mann and Veral Smith. They both show that the boolit is subjected to varying levels of pressure, greatest at the base and lesser toward the nose. Any wad or appliance between the powder and the actual lead reduces the pressure on the base somewhat, some materials more than others. A GC strengthens the base and reduces gas cutting provided it doesn't expose the base band to gas while transiting the barrel. The GC taking and absorbing part of the pressure/heat is not often mentioned plus it should provide a unform base edge provided it was made or swaged that way. This absorbtion of part of the pressure goes hand in hand with useing softer alloyies for expansion. The same can be said of Freechecks on PB boolits.

[StarMetal]

Explain then. The gas check is there to stop skid and allow the boolit to take the rifling, thus keeping a base seal. This is the only way to stop gas leakage when other things are not right.
It is not magic and still can be exceeded.
If you tell us it is to stop bases from melting, I will have to laugh at you! :mrgreen:
Bases do not melt from powder heat but high pressure can turn boolits into globs. A check can help at the base under high pressure but what about the rest of the boolit? Checks do not cure slump.


No, stopping skid is only a side benefit. It's not the heat of the pressure melting the base, it's the extreme pressure eroding the edges, and distorting the base. Think of how those high water pressure machines cut intricate pieces out of steel. They don't melt it, it's the pressure. Haven't you noticed how bullet bases of fired bullets from high pressure loads are cupped? Even with gas checks. That's where the peak of the gas pressure is...in the center of the base and you can very obviously see that. So they protect the base of the bullet from any type of deformation, side benefit is they hopefully firmly grip the bullet and help anchor it in the rifling, and seal off gas trying to escape around the base of the bullet.

[44man]

No, stopping skid is only a side benefit. It's not the heat of the pressure melting the base, it's the extreme pressure eroding the edges, and distorting the base. Think of how those high water pressure machines cut intricate pieces out of steel. They don't melt it, it's the pressure. Haven't you noticed how bullet bases of fired bullets from high pressure loads are cupped? Even with gas checks. That's where the peak of the gas pressure is...in the center of the base and you can very obviously see that. So they protect the base of the bullet from any type of deformation, side benefit is they hopefully firmly grip the bullet and help anchor it in the rifling, and seal off gas trying to escape around the base of the bullet.
I see no argument since I have also explained boolit deformation.
But I can shoot holes in a lot of stuff.
Here are revolver boolits all shot in the same pressure range. Notice the gas checks on the factory loads. Then see my .475 PB working at max pressures just short of brass sticking and .45 gas check boolits. Strange my PB shows zero damage and not even the .45, 347 gr boolit shows as much damage as the factory loads, in fact it is pretty smooth and even.
If you are cupping bases, you ARE skidding rifling.

[44man]

Now notice the gas checks from factory loads compared to my boolit.
See anything funny?
Gee, Joe, you might learn something here! [smilie=1:

[44man]

Another thing to look at is the portion of hard factory lube that stayed in one side of a boolit. Now how great is that for accuracy? :roll: Would you take a WW off your car to make a boolit with?

[44man]

I am enamored by those that work like mad to make perfect boolits, no wrinkles or voids and weigh every boolit. Then stick the hardest, most brittle lube in the grooves because they don't like a mess. Need a heater on the sizer. They sure look and feel great, clean with no lube except in the grooves.
No hope I am afraid! :killingpc
Hey Joe, this is fun. What else can we do?

[StarMetal]

I don't agree with cupping bases that you have a skipping bullet. I've probably collected more fired bullets then most have on this forum. I've also see jacketed bullets with cupped bases too.

One of my worse revolvers for skipping bullet is also one of my most accurate revolvers and one, for a plain jane gun, that will should right along side or beat your rigs...with iron sights. No red dot or scopes on my hand guns. That happens to be my Smith Model 25 45 Colt that you saw the good small group at 100 yards.

Another reason for cupping is sides of the bullet tend to stick to the walls of the bore and the center gets punched in from the pressure. Very much like pounding a slug through a barrel with an undersized rod.

You have lots to learn Jim, but you won't because One, you don't have the time, and Two, you're set in your ways. I tried nicely to explain what gas checks do, but you have other ideas so I'm finished.

:coffeecom:Fire:

[44man]

I don't agree with cupping bases that you have a skipping bullet. I've probably collected more fired bullets then most have on this forum. I've also see jacketed bullets with cupped bases too.

One of my worse revolvers for skipping bullet is also one of my most accurate revolvers and one, for a plain jane gun, that will should right along side or beat your rigs...with iron sights. No red dot or scopes on my hand guns. That happens to be my Smith Model 25 45 Colt that you saw the good small group at 100 yards.

Another reason for cupping is sides of the bullet tend to stick to the walls of the bore and the center gets punched in from the pressure. Very much like pounding a slug through a barrel with an undersized rod.

You have lots to learn Jim, but you won't because One, you don't have the time, and Two, you're set in your ways. I tried nicely to explain what gas checks do, but you have other ideas so I'm finished.

:coffeecom:Fire:
Well I have forgotten so can you explain the gas check again since I never see erosion on the edges of boolits? All I ever see are extrusions from the lands. All of my recovered boolits have flat bases and sharp edges. Since I never shoot what is wrong, I guess I will never see what you say because it is fruitless to go look for it. [smilie=f:

[Bret4207]

Jeeze, here I sit actually agreeing with Joe. I think a pig just flew by......

Joe and Bob, trying to talk to some people is wasted effort.

[44man]

Well, all kinds of theories floating around but I have not been able to put a TV camera in a cartridge yet.
If I take a softer alloy I can't get under 6" groups at 50 yards with a PB. Take the exact same boolit but made for a GC and I can get one ragged hole groups with a flier now and then. I harden the boolits and the fliers go away and if I make the first PB harder it will also shoot one ragged hole.
Recovered boolits all show no base damage but the skid is evident on the ones that shoot bad AND on the fliers, GC or not.
Now just how do you fellas find other uses for a GC? Since I use boolits that fit and have no gas cutting or leakage and none of the boolits lead the bore, what other determination would I make?
Will a gas check prevent leading? :holysheep All of you know that is as false a statement a guy can make.
Do they allow a too small boolit to be used? That is funny too. [smilie=f:
To say the bite and seal to the rifling is a secondary, unimportant function and the GC does something else more important eludes me.
Maybe I am dense but you fellas that stick together and offer no definitive proof of a more important function sure puts a spin in other readers heads. I am sure they all await some proof.
Or just maybe you need a better alloy!
Do you need to borrow a camera?
How about a decent alloy for a PB? This shows skid but it has stopped at the base band. Will a GC help? NO, not needed so will making the boolit harder help? Not really because even with skid on the front, this boolit has done under an inch at 100 yards many times and 5/8" at fifty with fair consistency. I might get to 1/2" at fifty with it a little tougher.
Notice there is no base damage or erosion on the edges.

[44man]

Joe and Bret, I have agreed with both of you too many times to count but this is something you just can't dispute without actual proof. Show and tell then I will tell you what you are doing wrong. :bigsmyl2:

[Bass Ackward]

Notice there is no base damage or erosion on the edges.


The short barreled man has to deal with high muzzle pressure to achieve velocity. People worry about gas cutting. But at the wrong point. It's all in the launch. High muzzle pressure makes every PB bullet a bevel base. Question is, is it uniform?

In the beginning air that passes the bullet is cool until the air that was in the case is replaced by expanding gas. That is impossible to happen unless there is something grossly wrong. So my point is that we worry about something that can be controlled. Where the REAL gas cutting happens, we can't do a darn thing about it but wear the gun in better.

99% of gas cutting occurs at the cylinder face and the muzzle pressure only serves to ruin the launch. I know that is going to be a new concept to allot of people.

This result can be uniform and do OK or not for many reasons. If you have an alignment issue, and I would say that 8 out of 10 made today, have, then the bullet is going to turn and break seal improperly receiving the most gas cutting where the seal first broke. There the base is destroyed regardless. And you get spitting.

Now the higher the pressure is at the muzzle, the more effect it will have on a deformed base. Another way to say this is the shorter this barrel is, the less margin for error you will have, or the lower velocity / pressure will be needed to minimize erosion. Unless you use a check.

With a GC, regardless of what happens from the beginning or the middle, there is absolutely zero gas cutting with a GC upon exit from either cylinder throat or muzzle exit. This is also one of the reasons that heavy for caliber bullets shoot better. The longer bearing length allows for more time for the cylinder to align with the bore so that it breaks clean and gas cutting is uniform if the mechanical condition of the gun allows it to be. So you DON"T need a GC on heavier bullets. For the multiple gun man, or light for caliber guy, this factor is eliminated with the check. Shooting low pressure / velocity can minimize this effect allowing acceptable accuracy if your standards are not unreasonable. But we never differentiate this to new shooters when we recommend PB.

This is where the advantage comes from that a longer barreled guy doesn't have to endure. And it is why I don't try playing with bullet mix "A" or working up loads for a PB until the gun wears in. You need a GC bullet for break in until the cone is worn enough not to cause you so much gas cutting. In the end, it still won't be ideal, especially with light for caliber bullets.

So your best accuracy will STILL come from a GC if you have misalignment.

[frank505]

I put a 32 twist Green Mountain barrel on my old 45 Colt and stopped the skidding. We had noticed a 24 twist barrel also did the same. The bullets are WW air cooled and lubed with Carnuba Red. No leading, no skidding just rid myself of the 16 twist barrel from Ruger. Accuracy is better, can hit golf balls at 65 yards, switch barrels and hits are accidental. Also shoots a 360 grain Keith bullet very well to 475 yards. No I dont shoot from the bench just in the field or sitting against my Jeep tire. No scopes, just a handy sixgun to spend my days with no matter what I am doing. Before you experts jump my a#! go talk to Lloyd Smale about me

[StarMetal]

44man,

All I can tell you is that I have shot all kinds of alloys, from soft lead all the way to and beyond the harder babbitts, in all sorts of calibers, and from low to high velocities. I won't lie to you that all the loads and all the guns shot super accurate groups, but I didn't have any of the problems you are describing.

I have a 4 inch barrel Model 19 S&W, in 357 Mag of course, the old pinned barrel model that I bet I could give you one heck of a run for your money at long long distance. Why I mention this is about the post if you have a SWC with a nose that is loose in the barrel if you would stick the nose of such bullet in the muzzle, which I believe it was you that mentioned it.......the claim I just staked here is with such a bullet. That bullet is the RCBS 150 grain semi wadcutter. Yet that is one of the most accurate bullets from that Model 19......with a four inch barrel. I've shot it from all sorts of alloy mixes. So I got a chuckle when I read that statement about the nose being loose. Sure doesn't hold true to my revolver and...and...that's with other people shooting my revolver and accurately too. So I'm not alone making the claim "well I did it".

I don't know what to tell you Jim, I've done (so has 45 2.1) a lot of the things that you have said cannot be done.

[tek4260]

I guess I am just lucky. I have only had one Ruger that was not accurate and it found a new home after about 20 or so rounds. All the discussion about GC, alloy, nose shape, and skidding is very informative but has anyone thought about the basics of shooting? I know that when a revolver is inaccurate, I blame myself first. After a short time here and at Rugerforum, I decided to fix all my shooters to the best of my "home gunsmith" ability. This means light light triggers, proper throats, 11 degree forcing cones, proper timing, ect. On my reloads, each is hand trickled on my RCBS 10-10 (my usual load is 1 gr below book max) and the chrony tells me the deviation is less than 10 or so fps. Aside from that, the rest of the accuracy is between my hands and eyes. Lloyd, I am not doubting your ability. But, could it be something as simple as the consistency of your grip that you have overlooked in all those rounds? Sight picture? Anything more simple than the arguments I have read above. I have two 45 Rugers that gave me ragged holes right from the start after my mods and one BFR that gave me that after shortening (don't know what difference it would have made, but I never fired it before shipping it off to be cut).

FWIW, Linebaugh has it right. HS-6 and H110 with heavy boolits...

[44man]

Joe, I have NO problems. I solved them years and years ago.
You clearly miss the point that a few guns have problems and just because yours doesn't is the same as me saying none of mine do either. But never claim a Keith will shoot from every gun just because it does from yours. I have had those guns too but I also had better Keith molds to go along.
Definitions of accuracy and saying "it shoots good" holds little water.
Every single thing I ever loaded for a revolver can be said to "shoot good."
Define and show average groups, not just one exceptional luck group.
Funny that in all of these years I have never seen a single picture from you. That is just not acceptable. I am wide open and will go right down and shoot a group if asked and will post a picture. Why do you hide? Don't you have a camera?
I post so many pictures I have to delete many or I run out of space yet some of you have never, ever offered proof of a single word.
I do not believe everything I read, from here or from a gun comic.
I find it strange that proof pictures mean so little to you few that are so set in your ways that knowledge from experience offends you. You call me hard headed yet you are a million times worse. I choose to learn and you have never offered a better solution.

[StarMetal]

Joe, I have NO problems. I solved them years and years ago.
You clearly miss the point that a few guns have problems and just because yours doesn't is the same as me saying none of mine do either. But never claim a Keith will shoot from every gun just because it does from yours. I have had those guns too but I also had better Keith molds to go along.
Definitions of accuracy and saying "it shoots good" holds little water.
Every single thing I ever loaded for a revolver can be said to "shoot good."
Define and show average groups, not just one exceptional luck group.
Funny that in all of these years I have never seen a single picture from you. That is just not acceptable. I am wide open and will go right down and shoot a group if asked and will post a picture. Why do you hide? Don't you have a camera?
I post so many pictures I have to delete many or I run out of space yet some of you have never, ever offered proof of a single word.
I do not believe everything I read, from here or from a gun comic.
I find it strange that proof pictures mean so little to you few that are so set in your ways that knowledge from experience offends you. You call me hard headed yet you are a million times worse. I choose to learn and you have never offered a better solution.

Jim,

I have gotten away from posting pictures because of all the flak I get from pictures of groups I have shot with various rifles. I think your memory is lacking a little because in the past I've posted many pictures of recovered bullets from both hand guns and rifles.

Most my friends should similar style bullets as me and with equally good results, I'm not talking about just "good" groups or shooting, I'm talking about extraordinary good groups and shooting.

[Bret4207]

Joe has posted pictures of his famous "ragged one hole groups" (Pat. Pend.) before. The problem with pictures of groups is that without recognized witnesses they mean....what? Nothing. And that goes for anybodys pictures or groups. The only way you get your groups accepted without question is by maintaining a believable status to start with. I would, for instance, never doubt Deputy Al's pictures or Dale McGees or Bob S. But I wouldn't expect any one to buy my pics without a witness and that probably goes for a lot of other people too. So while pics may satisfy some people, it just creates problems in another way.

[Whitworth]

Well then, I can vouch for 44man and his shooting. There, is that settled? :grin:

[Bret4207]

The short barreled man has to deal with high muzzle pressure to achieve velocity. People worry about gas cutting. But at the wrong point. It's all in the launch. High muzzle pressure makes every PB bullet a bevel base. Okay, for the first time in a long time I have to ask, "Whut?" Why do you think that Bass? Question is, is it uniform?

In the beginning air that passes the bullet is cool until the air that was in the case is replaced by expanding gas. That is impossible to happen unless there is something grossly wrong. So my point is that we worry about something that can be controlled. Where the REAL gas cutting happens, we can't do a darn thing about it but wear the gun in better.

99% of gas cutting occurs at the cylinder face and the muzzle pressure only serves to ruin the launch. I know that is going to be a new concept to allot of people.

This result can be uniform and do OK or not for many reasons. If you have an alignment issue, and I would say that 8 out of 10 made today, have, then the bullet is going to turn and break seal improperly receiving the most gas cutting where the seal first broke. There the base is destroyed regardless. And you get spitting. I'm not sure "destroyed" is the right word, kind of gives rise to the impression "all is lost"

Now the higher the pressure is at the muzzle, the more effect it will have on a deformed base. Another way to say this is the shorter this barrel is, the less margin for error you will have, or the lower velocity / pressure will be needed to minimize erosion. Unless you use a check.

With a GC, regardless of what happens from the beginning or the middle, there is absolutely zero gas cutting with a GC upon exit from either cylinder throat or muzzle exit. If the GC is of adequate size This is also one of the reasons that heavy for caliber bullets shoot better. The longer bearing length allows for more time for the cylinder to align with the bore so that it breaks clean and gas cutting is uniform if the mechanical condition of the gun allows it to be. Okay, that one makes no sense. If things are unaligned how does the boolit somehow become aligned? The boolit can't bend and leave a square base. So you DON"T need a GC on heavier bullets. For the multiple gun man, or light for caliber guy, this factor is eliminated with the check. Shooting low pressure / velocity can minimize this effect allowing acceptable accuracy if your standards are not unreasonable. But we never differentiate this to new shooters when we recommend PB.

This is where the advantage comes from that a longer barreled guy doesn't have to endure. And it is why I don't try playing with bullet mix "A" or working up loads for a PB until the gun wears in. You need a GC bullet for break in until the cone is worn enough not to cause you so much gas cutting. In the end, it still won't be ideal, especially with light for caliber bullets.

So your best accuracy will STILL come from a GC if you have misalignment.

I think sometimes the best accuracy comes with a GC even if everything is perfectly aligned. That depends on a lot of things including the stubborness factor of the shooter!

Good post BA, got me thinking again.

[44man]

Thanks Marko, show them what you do with my "worthless" loads too.

[leftiye]

Geesh! (nuff said?)

[Bass Ackward]

I think sometimes the best accuracy comes with a GC even if everything is perfectly aligned. That depends on a lot of things including the stubborness factor of the shooter!

Good post BA, got me thinking again.

I would have thought my ideas were old hat to you by now. How long you been reading me? :grin:

Gas is lighter than a bullet and once released, it will accelerate passed the bullet while it remain under enough pressure to do so. For a split second it is this hot gas that will cause focused damage. Focused .... where? The higher the pressure and the hotter the gas, the longer this effect will be in place. And the more deflection too. Why most PB loads are better with ball powders. (cooler burning) Or lower pressure cartridges. You know the ones.

Destroyed means that it is no longer perfect. Why is that important? Well .... casters take time to screen their bases during or after molding for sharp bases. Why bother if the gun is just going to shoot them to the same imperfect standard anyway? When a gun spits, what part of the bullet do you suppose that lead is coming from? Is it uniform? Problem is that a spit doesn't always come from the misaligned perp. It builds against the cone or cylinder face until it builds enough that that pressure level blows it clear. BC gap comes into play here as well. Some guys want tight. Me, I want that pressure dropping rapidly and this to remain constant by remaining clear so full cylinder #10 is the same velocity and pressure wise as the first cylinder was. I'll gladly add more powder if I need to.

GC strengthens this area to minimize this effect and lowers what you need to know or your gun's inadequacies. The cone performs the centering. Not ideal, but good enough in most cases to beat the "defective" PB scenario. If everything is perfect, then the PB has the highest accuracy potential because lead weighs more than copper and the weight is shifted back and the bullet shorter for better stabilization. But the gun still must be perfect at that pressure level, the shooter knowledgeable enough to make use of it, and then display it. Not a fair challenge for a rookie with less than ideal conditions either way.

So cutting pressure works obviously. That can be done only to a point before it causes poor ignition or it becomes necessary to go to lower pressure cartridges that .... just .... happen to have better accuracy (ease of use) reputations with lead. And better accuracy reputations with shorter barrels too by the way.

Don't forget to read #11. Don't get hung up in the accuracy of the numbers, only the trend that it displays.

[44man]

I would have thought my ideas were old hat to you by now. How long you been reading me? :grin:

Gas is lighter than a bullet and once released, it will accelerate passed the bullet while it remain under enough pressure to do so. For a split second it is this hot gas that will cause focused damage. Focused .... where? The higher the pressure and the hotter the gas, the longer this effect will be in place. And the more deflection too. Why most PB loads are better with ball powders. (cooler burning) Or lower pressure cartridges. You know the ones.

Destroyed means that it is no longer perfect. Why is that important? Well .... casters take time to screen their bases during or after molding for sharp bases. Why bother if the gun is just going to shoot them to the same imperfect standard anyway? When a gun spits, what part of the bullet do you suppose that lead is coming from? Is it uniform? Problem is that a spit doesn't always come from the misaligned perp. It builds against the cone or cylinder face until it builds enough that that pressure level blows it clear. BC gap comes into play here as well. Some guys want tight. Me, I want that pressure dropping rapidly and this to remain constant by remaining clear so full cylinder #10 is the same velocity and pressure wise as the first cylinder was. I'll gladly add more powder if I need to.

GC strengthens this area to minimize this effect and lowers what you need to know or your gun's inadequacies. The cone performs the centering. Not ideal, but good enough in most cases to beat the "defective" PB scenario. If everything is perfect, then the PB has the highest accuracy potential because lead weighs more than copper and the weight is shifted back and the bullet shorter for better stabilization. But the gun still must be perfect at that pressure level, the shooter knowledgeable enough to make use of it, and then display it. Not a fair challenge for a rookie with less than ideal conditions either way.

So cutting pressure works obviously. That can be done only to a point before it causes poor ignition or it becomes necessary to go to lower pressure cartridges that .... just .... happen to have better accuracy (ease of use) reputations with lead. And better accuracy reputations with shorter barrels too by the way.

Don't forget to read #11. Don't get hung up in the accuracy of the numbers, only the trend that it displays.
They are not old hat to me Bass, You tend to beat around the bush a little but most of the time you make a lot of sense. Some fellas need whacked with a billy club to wake up though.
When someone says what we do needs verified, it means we are called liars, down and dirty simple proof that they are not able to do it so the easy explanation is we are lying. With thousands of posts to tell them how, they are still stubborn in the extreme.
Human nature is just funny.
Sometimes we just have to do this! :killingpc
Strange how easy it is to dispute but how hard it is to show proof. One thing for sure, if someone showed 50 or 100 yard groups, I would never call them a liar. There is such a thing as integrity.

[StarMetal]

44man,

I hate to burst your bubble but I know 4 people that can out shoot you. One is dead, my good friend Jack up in Pa...gone to cancer. The other is my oil refinery best friend, Mike down in Tulsa, Ok, 45 2.1, and myself. Now I can give you Mike's phone number in a pm and you call him and ask him about my shooting. Another to vouch for me is my childhood best friend Carl out in Denver, Co. Another best high school friend is Bob in Fayette City, Pa, and one more refinery friend Frank of Broken Arrow, Ok. I'll give you or anyone the phone numbers to these good people and you can talk to them.

Now Wiljen invited me down to shoot my Swede so he can put an end to the kaka on the forum going on about it. Perhaps I should do that and take some of my handguns and put an end to your ridiculous, continuous, and arrogant bragging.

Like Bret said I haven't seen you shoot so your posted pictures and group are just a crock to me.:takinWiz:

[45nut]

Annie Oakley
Fabulous Topperweins Addy and Pinky
Ed McGivern
Tom Frye
John Huffer
Herb Parsons
Jerry Miculek
Bill Blankenship
Timothy Murphy
Carlos Hathcock

I never witnessed any one of them shoot personally,, and I would wage mighty few here have,, but do I just dismiss the possibility of any one of them incapable of the feats I hear about them? Nope.

I know its mighty easy to brag via a keyboard,, but it seems even easier for some to discount out of hand and generally call out most anyone as a liar via the same keyboard.
Deception anger in my opinion seems better directed toward real and not just perceived lies from the government drones spouting real propaganda in the best imitation of the nazi machine.

Let's not tear each other apart here when we are not the ones causing real pain and suffering across the earth.

[Whitworth]

44man,

I hate to burst your bubble but I know 4 people that can out shoot you. One is dead, my good friend Jack up in Pa...gone to cancer. The other is my oil refinery best friend, Mike down in Tulsa, Ok, 45 2.1, and myself. Now I can give you Mike's phone number in a pm and you call him and ask him about my shooting. Another to vouch for me is my childhood best friend Carl out in Denver, Co. Another best high school friend is Bob in Fayette City, Pa, and one more refinery friend Frank of Broken Arrow, Ok. I'll give you or anyone the phone numbers to these good people and you can talk to them.

Now Wiljen invited me down to shoot my Swede so he can put an end to the kaka on the forum going on about it. Perhaps I should do that and take some of my handguns and put an end to your ridiculous, continuous, and arrogant bragging.

Like Bret said I haven't seen you shoot so your posted pictures and group are just a crock to me.:takinWiz:

Ooooh, can I get involved? But none of that bench rest, sissy stuff. We go offhand with heavy loads, not plinking loads! :bigsmyl2:

[tek4260]

Tough crowd

[45 2.1]

Ooooh, can I get involved? But none of that bench rest, sissy stuff. We go offhand with heavy loads, not plinking loads! :bigsmyl2:

Why have any limits? You shoot yours and everybody else shoots theirs................ in all venues. Combat, aerial, silhouette, target, long range, bench rest, NRA, offhand the real way (thats one handed BTW), etc. Enough of this "mine is bigger and meaner" stuff. See if you can toe the line in other disciplines.

[Bret4207]

Like Bret said I haven't seen you shoot so your posted pictures and group are just a crock to me.:takinWiz:

WHOA! Hold on just one stinkin' minute. Bret did not say that. What I said was that a picture doesn't mean alot if your rep doesn't back it up. I'm sorry Joe, but that includes you too and your claims of "one ragged hole" grouping at 100 yards with cast from an SKS anytime, anywhere! Same goes for 44Man and his "I've shot more and can shoot better than anyone else here" claim. I'm only paraphrasing a little as both of you have said pretty much those exact words. MAYBE both of you can do it, I don't know. What I do know is fact is that egos tend to massage groups and distance very often in this old world and that pictures of one hole groups might have been shot at 100 yards and contain 10 rounds or they might have been shot at 10 yards and be 2 rounds.

When you make seemingly wild claims, even when you provide "proof" through pics, people tend to be skeptical. As I said, I wouldn't expect anyone to simply believe I could shoot incredible groups day after day based simply on my say so. I can tell you I look exactly like Sterling Hayden and provide a picture, would you believe it?

[Whitworth]

Why have any limits? You shoot yours and everybody else shoots theirs................ in all venues. Combat, aerial, silhouette, target, long range, bench rest, NRA, offhand the real way (thats one handed BTW), etc. Enough of this "mine is bigger and meaner" stuff. See if you can toe the line in other disciplines.


The limits were put there to make it tougher (not a mine is bigger and meaner scenario). If you can shoot any of my .500s one handed, I'd like to see it. Anyhow, you are welcome to come down any time -- I'm sure Jim has extended an invitation.

[Bass Ackward]

I read Lloyd on another post saying that none of his guns have been to college. But in truth Professor Target, of the School of Hard Knocks, took him to task. :grin:

Look, nobody has the answers cause the conditions always change depending on the test you are given. Some things tend to trend along because all guns in a caliber are supposed to be the same. But what do you do when they don't?

If you are poor, it does behove you to have some semblance of a problem solving capability. Can't do that without some experience or education behind ya. I assume that is why we are all here. If you are well enough off, then just buy and try I guess. No right or wrong way. Just git'er done.

But it is good to understand others. Makes it easier to understand why they strive for what they do. It only gets complicated when they feel that their style is the only style. We each walk sort of a different path and hand gunners have the most choices.

I only use benching for load development or theory testing. And that fills dead time for me. I don't particularly like it (with a handgun) especially with full power loads and I don't know anyone that is very good at doing anything they don't enjoy doing. But it beats work.

After thinking about it, I honestly can't remember the last time I shot at a standing anything. Maybe a ground hog or a crow this year. See, I still hunt and these days, stuff usually sees me before I see it. If I ain't hunting, I'm working and I have to react when I was focused on something else. No glass going to help me. Choice is to clear leather or go back to work. At that point, the best revolver, the most accurate revolver, is the one you got on and the ideal load is the one that's in there. They all work if you thought ahead of time and you do your part. Hearing protection for unplanned situations is limited to reduced noise loads. One of the fun things is putting stuff in crotches of trees and coming back a week or two later and shooting them as fast as I spot them. Then keep them on the move. And that's a different twist.

Why I look pretty bad out there too. A handgun on one side and a canteen on the other. A walking stick in my non-gun hand for keeping me upright on the slopes and shooting support. Pair of small binos around my neck just in case. Property joins a state park. So it's a full day hunt. I got a sandwich in one pocket, some paper wadded up for whatever, and a radio to tell the ol lady where to bring the truck. Might have rain gear if appropriate. If I am in a stand late in the day at seasons end, (we do have them) I got a rifle to reach out cause I tired of 50 yard standing deer about 30 years ago.

Handgun for challenge, rifle for meat.

[451whitworth]

Tough crowd

i'm the greatest internet handgun shot of all time.:roll:

[Whitworth]

44man never claimed to be the best at anything and has arrived at his level of performance through lots of trial and error, elbow grease, and constant tinkering. But then someone posts that he knows four people who can outshoot him, never having met Jim. That's a bit presumptuous, no?

[44man]

There you all go again, off on the same tangent!
Never, ever at any time have I said I shoot better then anyone, go back and read every single post I ever did.
I only, ever, have one claim and that is that I make revolvers shoot the best they can. So get off that junk.
I have told you many times that if you come and shoot my revolvers you would most likely out shoot me.
Stop injecting claims I never made. I need a rest to shoot good and Whitworth out shoots me off hand.
If you think I shoot those groups because I am a super shot, your off your rocker! Can't you understand I do it because I make the guns and loads capable.
I have tried to help and posted every single thing I have learned. A lot of guys have improved and appreciate those things I say to try while others continue to keep their heads in the sand and add untrue things about what I said because they can't really do what they say they do because they just can't make their revolvers shoot good. Since they can't do it, everyone else is a liar.
Joe keeps tossing ONE group shot with his .45 at me and I toss a hundred back at him, not because I am a better shot but because I understand the revolver.
Elmer Keith understood the revolver and made it work with what he had. We have advanced but so many are stuck in his era but NONE of us are Elmer Keith status either. I keep saying if Elmer had the powders, brass and guns we have now, he would be in his glory but some of you just keep using what he had back then and expect to shoot like he did. News for you, your middle name is not Elmer!
How does this sound? Joe Elmer Starmetal!
Sorry Joe but you deserve it for inserting things I never said.
A few others are too, makes no sense, are you trying to bolster yourselves? Come shoot my guns or better yet bring yours and I will load some rounds for you that will make you admire your gun a lot more. Yes, I can get you shooting 1" or 2" targets at 100 yards from a rest. If you can't, blame yourself, not the gun.
Keep posting things that are untrue only hurts you in the end.

[45nut]

Jeesh,, did anyone read my post at ALL? I sure wonder. this thread is done.