I need help with a Documentary

[peter nap]

I'm doing a video on an interesting Self Defense shooting.

The basics are:
Man came into a store and immediately shot the owner with a .38 spl. Nothing unusual about that /
A customer that was legally carrying a BP replica cartridge gun (45LC) shot the BG in the chest catching the left lung.

HE WAS USING HANDLOADED ROUND BALL LOADS. Load amount and powder is unknown.


Now the problem. I can't fins any terminal ballistics for a .45 round ball out of a handgun.

Any ideas?

[Dale53]

peter nap;
Mike Venturino's book, "Shooting Colt Single Actions" has complete loading data for Cap n Ball revolvers including velocities and loads.

THAT's what you need.

Dale53

[sagacious]

Lyman Handbook #47 has 45Colt RB data for smokeless.

Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook has 45Colt RB data for BP.

[runfiverun]

think 45 acp.

[peter nap]

think 45 acp.

I hope not. My EDC is a 1911 with hardball. I'd be unhappy if I didn't get any better stopping authority than the round balls did.

The BG not only didn't stop the fight, he didn't even seem to notice being hit. He emptied his revolver and then went after the other fellow bare handed.
He stopped the fight after being shot in the Hip joint dislocating it. Then being hit over the head with the gun barrel.

It took a couple of hours to die.

[redneckdan]

Depends on your scale and its resolution. If you were comparing the round ball, the .45 acp and the .375 H&H then the two pistol rounds would be near identical. Compare the two against say a .45 schofield and then you would be able to see a difference, though in real world accuracy would be more important than the difference in energy.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I'm amazed that people expect immediate incapacitation with a pistol round in a 250 lb bad guy. Its not like a .220 swift hitting a praire dog. its more like a pellet gun stopping a pit bull.

Peter Nap. Kudos for publishing, and doing some research before hand.

[TCLouis]

Without load data and powder we can all speculate til the cows come home and is is all BS including some of which follows.

Most folks I know that load RB loads load them down for some purposes other than self defense loads.

Loaded to the "max potential", the fight might not have happened as laid out.

The other thing to remember about this description, "catching the left lung" caliber and loading notwithstanding, it is location, Location, LOCATION, in this case location of boolit strike also.

Center of CHEST hit with a quick follow-up or two and I think the threat would have been neutralized.

After all that is all we are trying to do is "neutralize the threat" isn't it?

[Oyeboten]

It would all depend on the Kind or Model of Cap and Ball Pistol...the Capacity of the Cylinder Chambers...how much and what kind of Powder/Propellent...Diameters of Cylinder Bores to that of the Barrel Bore major diameter proper, Length of Barrel, and, weight of the Ball less whatever Lead 'ring' was shaved off in Loading.


Far as I recall, most Remington or Colt 1860 Model C&B .44 Revolvers on 3F BP will be nudging the 1000 fps mark with a 144 Grain Lead Ball and a full charge of 3f BP.

Dragoons of Walkers, of course, can hold a lot more powder and provide higher FPS.


As others have mentioned, whatever the Hand Gun, Shot Placement tends to be high on the list far as getting prompt results.

No reason a .44 Remington or M1860 Colt would not drop anybody, so long as the Shot or Shots are well placed.

[peter nap]

Well., everyone is right so far about unknowns and BS.

This has been a difficult story to do because the shooter is a little paranoid, the PD does not want the story out and are begrudgingly giving me what I have in my FOIA requests.

I don't know the exact load the shooter was using except it was 45LC, RB handloads and they were hot.

The location of the wound was high and to the left of center mass. About where you'd place your hand when saying the Pledge.

Medical Examiners records here are treated as medical records and are not FOIAable.

From pictures I have and the description of the suspects actions, he caught the top tip of the lung and there was no bone hit or cardiovascular damage so the suspect was free to continue the fight until his lungs filled with blood and he suffocated. That's my hunters opinion and I will interview a Doctor that is familiar with gunshot wounds to get an expert opinion.

shooting on a shoestring, thanks!
There's enough BS...self defense media on the market. This is going to tell the complete and actual story or I'm not going to do it.

I've got a couple of hundred hours of research in it already, actually got the shooter and many of the people in the store to talk to me in a relaxed atmosphere and shot a lot of footage already.

The rule of thumb on documentaries is one hour of video for every minute of finished product. I'm not a video whiz. I'm a still photographer so I'm revamping the rule to three hours/minute.

[Bullshop]

Was he loading single or double ball? I only load RB in revolver cartridge two ways, single for gallery type loads at very close range or double for self defence loads. The doubles are loaded hot.
With the doubles at moderate range each shot makes two 45 cal holes from the 45 Colt.
At very close powder burn range they may make one hole. I may be wrong but if memory serves a 45 RB is only about 120gn. Thats only about half the weight of a 45 acp. I think with a 45 acp and one of Mihek's 200gn HP's soft and the same hit would have had different results. Those 5 sided Mihek's are awesome.
BIC/BS

[peter nap]

Was he loading single or double ball? I only load RB in revolver cartridge two ways, single for gallery type loads at very close range or double for self defence loads. The doubles are loaded hot.
With the doubles at moderate range each shot makes two 45 cal holes from the 45 Colt.
At very close powder burn range they may make one hole. I may be wrong but if memory serves a 45 RB is only about 120gn. Thats only about half the weight of a 45 acp. I think with a 45 acp and one of Mihek's 200gn HP's soft and the same hit would have had different results. Those 5 sided Mihek's are awesome.
BIC/BS

Single ball.

[Oyeboten]

Single soft Lead Ball in .45 Colt ought to weight right about 140 Grains...very hard Alloy, low 130s.


Funny, I am loading some as we speak...pure Lead.


I misread the OP...thought it was a .44 Cap and Ball Revolver for some reason.


If it was .45 Colt, or if a Ruger, could have been a very wide range of possibility as for the Loading and FPS.


If say an old SAA Colt, and, putting 40 Grains of 3F Black Powder behind it, and, if using a Ball which would be a good fit...should be around the 1000-1,100 FPS mark.


In a strong modern Revolver such as a 'Ruger', and various of Smokeless propellent choices, if said to be 'Hot', could well be 1,450-ish FPS I would think.

So 140 grain Ball-projectile, 1,450 FPS, would be upper .357 Magnum territory for whallop.


If a reproduction SAA, some of these have shorter Barrels, some long, and one would generally not load 'Hot' Cartridges for them...which does not mean that guy did not, of course.


I could Chronograph some, and report back.


But I do not have any Loading figures for Smokeless, and so am using 3F Black Powder, maybe some '777' or 'Trailboss' ( since these fill the Case to the Bullet's base)...figuring to make up some Single Ball and Double Ball.

Loading densities for Double Ball could get dicey with conventional Smokelss, or would require some careful thought anyway.

[Oyeboten]

Might be some useful info here -

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm?v1=420&v2=2876.1

[runfiverun]

a pass through with nothing but flesh/lung hit would result in what happened, also if he was breathing in or out at the time of the hit would change things.
ever chase an elk or deer?
the hot load would also NOT help in this situation. it would pass through and allow easier closure of the would by not creating the intended shock.
you have to have shock to the flesh either through blunt force [opening/flattening of the projectile]
or through hydrostatic shock [the whack bamm of how weatherby cartridges work.]
perforating tissue is not going to be immediate no way no how [talk to anybody who hunted ducks when they first went to steel shot]

[peter nap]

The only bullet hole I found was from the 45LC. It was a miss and hit the cooling vanes in the bottom of a cooler.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/freezer-hole.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/freezer.jpg

[Bullshop]

If that was a mis and still didnt have enough to cut that thin metal then it couldnt have been a very hot load. I doubt it was much over 600 fps if that. If it was anything near what a hot loaded 45 Colt can propel a 140gn RB with a hot load there would be a hole where the dent is.
BIC/BS

[peter nap]

If that was a mis and still didnt have enough to cut that thin metal then it couldnt have been a very hot load. I doubt it was much over 600 fps if that. If it was anything near what a hot loaded 45 Colt can propel a 140gn RB with a hot load there would be a hole where the dent is.
BIC/BS


That was my opinion too Bullshop. I should put quotes around hot. I'm trying to keep my opinion out of this though.

FWIW, it didn't have enough steam to cut the freon tubes.

[Bullshop]

OOPS! Sorry, an opinion is all I can afford right now. We have went and spent our 12 month budget in 6 months. Got a lot done though, a new summer kitchen, cow barn, and added 5 acres to BS acres.
Best wishes on your documentary!
BIC/BS

[peter nap]

OOPS! Sorry, an opinion is all I can afford right now. We have went and spent our 12 month budget in 6 months. Got a lot done though, a new summer kitchen, cow barn, and added 5 acres to BS acres.
Best wishes on your documentary!
BIC/BS

I don't mind your opinion.....I'm just trying to keep my opinion out of it.:smile:

[fryboy]

ok from the speer #11 45 colt rb load the heaviest loading with a 141 grain rb
4.5 unique for a mv of 632 fps 5 1/2" bbl

litest load listed 4.0 ww231 @ 544 fps FWIW 5 other loads listed all fall inbetween that

[Bullshop]

Those would be about top velocities for accuracy. A RB has very little bearing surface and pushed beyond that they will strip.
If accuracy is not desired as in close range self defence they can be made to go way faster than that.
My guess is by hot they meant the top listed loads which when compared to hot loads for boolits there is quite a gap in velocity even with non magnum type loads that are safe for colt clones.
BIC/BS

[Oyeboten]

Carrying light re-loads using round Ball in .45 Colt seems a naive or at least odd thing to do.


Any chance on some more detailed info of the event?

Who made the pronouncement on the Cartridge and projectile?


Anyway, shooting Round Ball in vatious of my Cap & Ball Revolvers, over BP, FPS around 950 - 1150, accuracy is fine to excellent for the distances I plink at, and were thought to have been good in their day, also.

The Lead Ball upsets - mushes out sideways under acceleration - to engauge the Rifeling better.


Over a full charge of Pyrodex or '777', no reason why 900-1100-odd FPS would not result when Round Ball is used in .45 Colt Cartridge Arms.


Most low bulk and 'fast' Smokeless Powders would be a poor choice for this...way too much space in the Cartridge.

[peter nap]

Carrying light re-loads using round Ball in .45 Colt seems a naive or at least odd thing to do.


Any chance on some more detailed info ot the event? Who made the pronouncement on the Cartridge and projectile?

The shooter told me they were hot. He's a little standoffish and tight mouthed. In a year, I'm the only one that's gotten any more than sketchy details and I had to pry a lot of it out.

I doubt the PD even looked at the loads. It was a slam dunk self defense case.

I know he was shooting 45 LC but he stopped short of telling me the load other than "Hot" RB.

[Oyeboten]

Well, it is curious in many ways, of course.


If the loads really were 'hot' in the sense most experienced shooters would intend the term to mean...then, one would have to guess lower mid-teens I would suppose for the FPS...but could even be a little more.

This assuming a good fit of Ball to Barrel, and, a good choice of Alloy for the Ball, and a good Crimp...and no idea what Powder, other than powder choice would be fairly crucial to the safety of the Arm, and, to respect the peculiar conditions of the Cartridge being loaded with a single Ball, in order to get FPS significantly higher than one would with BP or say '777'.

To do this right and to attain best results, a person would have had to either replicate someone else's priovate and considered Loading recipe, or, do a fair amount of thinking, and experimenting to arrive at themselves.

There is next to nothing for published Loads for .45 Colt Round Ball, and, such as there is or had been, would tend to be 'Gallery' Rounds of low power for Paper Target at fairly close range, rather than Loadings pushed to the max for FPS.


So...Round Ball in .45 Colt is both an obscure matter, and, an eccentric or unusual taste in Cartridge Loadings for a person to have elected.

[Oyeboten]

Any possibility on more details of the Revolver itself?


Anyway...any off the shelf .45 Colt Cartridges will have plenty of whallop for a recipient.

A single Ball projectile, on first blush, does not make any sense as a defensive Round in a .45 Colt chambering Revolver, when far greater energy could be delivered to a target using any off the shelf Cartridges.

Romance or Historical affinity wise, the single Ball projectile went out of fashion with the Cap & Ball Revolvers, and, from the onset, the Metallic Cartridge Conversions, or, subsequent fresh designs for Metallic Cartridge Ammunition, the projectiles were no longer Balls, but, heavier and longer shapes, carrying far more energy then, for their greater mass, than the Ball could.


The Cooler Vent - was that a dent? Or a hole? And in either case, any idea what gauge or composition the Metal is?

[waksupi]

I imagine if he loaded with 4F, it would be a rather energetic load.

[peter nap]

Any possibility on more details of the Revolver itself?


?

replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2 inch barrel

The cooler vent was a dent but the ball slid down the vent...about 18 ga metal I guess, and penetrated about 3/4" into the cooling fins..

[Oyeboten]

No way to know if the Cooler Vent shot was in fact representative of what the other Cartridges could do...but, that one shot anyway would not appear to have been remarkably energetic to me.

Repro 1875 Remington, 7.5 Inch Barrel...should be capable of anything a Colt SAA would do.


I have a .45 Colt 'Snubby' which I am sure delivers 600-ish FPS with heavy Bullets...even if that is of no use to us in this matter.


There are so many variables possible with home-load Ammunition, or, vagueries of consistency shot to shot also, according to the experience or understanding or habits of the person doing the re-Loading...

Is there any reason to suppose he was using Black Powder?


I believe the Smoke Clouds would have been conspicuous, if he had been.

If no conspicuous Smoke Clouds were mentioned, we can guess he was probably using something else than BP for a propellent/Powder.