Dreaded Paper Rings!

[RMulhern]

Well...I've grown VERY TIRED of attempting to shoot PP and getting paper rings left in the mouth of my cases and along with that....a certain amount of lead left in the bore because the 45* shoulder just forward of the chamber has been tearing off the **** end of my patches so....I called Pacific Tooling today and talked with Dave Kiffe and ordered me a reamer to take the 45* down to 7* as a friend has suggested! The tool should be here in a few days so shortly.....I'll have a 'smooth leade' and hopefully no more torn patches!!:lovebooli:wink:

[Lead pot]

Did you order a compound lead Rick? 7 degree into a 2.5 or just the straight 7 degree?

[Red River Rick]

Mr. Mulhern:

I came to that same conclusion a few years back when I tried shooting PP boolits out of my Pedersoli RB. With that 45 degree "WHATEVER" you call it, Leade, Throat, etc., Paper Patching in these chambers don't work worth a darn.

Greasers shoot just fine, but PP boolits don't shoot out of my rifle...........accurately! If I was shootin at a Drive-In Theater screen.............I may get a few on paper.....................at 100 yards.

So then, basically you've ordered just a "Throating" reamer, yes, no? Let us know how it turns out, I may have to go the same route.

:drinks:
RRR

[montana_charlie]

With that 45 degree "WHATEVER" you call it, Leade, Throat, etc.,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=2357

[RMulhern]

Did you order a compound lead Rick? 7 degree into a 2.5 or just the straight 7 degree?

Kurt

I got the 7*....same as Orville told me he has! Dave Kiffe also verified this!:drinks:

[Yellowhouse]

So, you sent a chamber casting to Pacific to order the reamer?

[RMulhern]

So, you sent a chamber casting to Pacific to order the reamer?

No! Pacific Tooling makes ALL of Kirk Bryans' reamers up at Shiloh and after talking with Dave Kiffe.....I was assured that no need for that!:-):D

[montana_charlie]

Have you seen this discussion?
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15602

[Yellowhouse]

Have you seen this discussion?
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15602

Discussion? What discussion?

[RMulhern]

Yellowhouse

Click on that 'Link' and you'll see some postings regarding certain issues. I went back and read these postings again but I've yet to figure out what MC is attempting to convey to me. I THINK possibly he concurs that removing the 45* angle will help or totally eliminate the problem with torn patches but....I don't know at this time.

I have a .45/100 Hiwall by Steve Meacham that consistently leaves paper rings either in the mouth of fired cases or either within the chamber/bore so Dan Theodore has been kind enough to send me a reamer to get this rifle up to par for use with PP. The barrel has been 34" but when I get it back from my RifleSmith it will be 31" over-all as I'm having him chop off the back-end and am rechambering it with Dans' 1870s original spec'ed reamer. This reamer has been used by Bryan Youngberg up Casper way and I think Jimbo Terry has a rifle chambered with this reamer. According to Dans' reporting....both of these rifles are shooting 'lights out' so maybe my reworked Meacham will do the same. This reamer has been spec'ed out for utilization with Starline brass BTW....which I have an abundant supply of cases. I'll have a cerrosafe cast to send to Dan so he can select a few PP bullets for me to try once I get the rifle into operation.

[montana_charlie]

Click on that 'Link' and you'll see some postings regarding certain issues. I went back and read these postings again but I've yet to figure out what MC is attempting to convey to me. I THINK possibly he concurs that removing the 45* angle will help or totally eliminate the problem with torn patches but....I don't know at this time.
Rick,
I don't know if you have ever made a serious attempt to match your case length to your chamber depth. At least, I can't remember you mentioning it. I also don't recall any mention by you of taking a chamber cast.
It's my belief that paper rings are caused (primarily) by 'short brass'.

I agree that the linked discussion at Shiloh went to pieces, but what I wanted you to notice is that your Shiloh chamber is ten thousandths longer than you (probably) believed it to be.
I don't know what your 'trim to length' is, but if you trim to the full dimension of the 'cartridge name'...that is still ten thousandths short for your chamber.

I shoot a 'modern chamber' with the sharp step. My cases are all stretched to fit. I've had only one paper ring...EVER...and that was on my last outing. I set that case aside and measured it back at the house. It was under length, and had been accidently included in the 'set' of cases I was shooting.

I think the 'funnel step' that Orville and Kurt are promoting is a good idea for PP bullets. I think it will reduce or prevent deformation of the bullet shank, and I'm referring to the wasp waist, finning, and cupped base types of damage seen in recovered bullets.

It may also help with paper rings...

CM

[RMulhern]

CM

I take great pains to make certain with all my brass that I'm at max length. Matter of fact....in the case of my Meacham rifle....which is the .45-100 that brass runs at around 2.615" instead of 2.600". If brass is ordered long...such as the next caliber up and trimmed back as you well know.....the order of the day is to start trimming that and checking for block closure. Leadpot taught me quite sometime back that one good way to check for max length is to load a charge and stuff in an OPW and then about a 3/4 to 1" lube wad with another wad atop and fire! The very definitive line imprinted on the exterior of the case...when it's slightly long will be the exact chamber length. This is basically what I do. With the RMC brass...it comes long to begin with and I have found that most of it will chamber even though long so I fire-form it and most of it gets trimmed to 2.882" instead of 2.875". No paper rings with it at all! To 'ease the pain' of having to purchase custom brass I've taken Orvilles' advice and I ordered a throating reamer for my two Shiloh .45 2 7/8 so I can use either Starline or Norma brass for PP. It should be in here any day now! The Meacham rifle is being worked on as I type this!

[montana_charlie]

CM
This is basically what I do. With the RMC brass...it comes long to begin with and I have found that most of it will chamber even though long so I fire-form it and most of it gets trimmed to 2.882" instead of 2.875". No paper rings with it at all!
That would tend to support what I believe.

To 'ease the pain' of having to purchase custom brass I've taken Orvilles' advice and I ordered a throating reamer for my two Shiloh .45 2 7/8 so I can use either Starline or Norma brass for PP. It should be in here any day now!
It would be interesting to know if the 'Orville Funnel' will prevent paper rings when the brass is a bit too short...
CM

[Don McDowell]

I'm of the mind that paper rings are a function of crimp. I don't get any paper rings except for the cases that have had some slight amount of even taper crimp applied. Want the paper rings to dissappear? Chamfer the cases, and size them to a tight slip fit on your patched bullet.

[RMulhern]

Way ahead of you on that my friend! I've tried it with crimp and without and the rings are still going to appear (in some chambers) regardless!! And what I've shot with a very small amount of taper crimp....with the crimp being so light that I can still extract the bullets from the mouth of the case...it makes no difference! The problem is that the base of the bullet gets blown into the 45* angle....expands....and then as it goes into the bore the patch gets cut upon entrance thereto!!

I'll solve this problem soon.....with a 'throating reamer' coming from Pacific!!

Enjoy your Wyoming weather! It was 113F Heat Index here yesterday!!!!

[Don McDowell]

Guess not all 45 degree chambers are the same then . lol

[Lead pot]

Paper/lead rings????? you mean these little things ???????
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0355-1.jpg
I used to get them [smilie=f:
Just take your cleaning rod with a loose patch and run it through the barrel with a crown bushing on it and you will find your paper or lead rings!

[martinibelgian]

Been there, done that - and shot the converted rifle last thursday with PP for the 1st time. And yes, no more paper rings, so it works. I do have to admit that my chamber is pretty 'generous' (read oversize), so... Accuracy is not yet what I want, but that might be the wiping regime or the load, as cartridge OAL changes quite a bit in performing the operation. Still it does look promising. Promising enough to take her out to next WE's 200yd match - but I'll be ahooting 2 rifles in that competition, so if it doesn't work, I'll get another chance with the other rifle.
FWIW, I did it to a .45 2.1", and I 'm shooting a 540gr PP bullet, patched to .458, The load tested was 74grs of 1 1/2Fg, I bumped it to for the match loads.

[Red River Rick]

I'll solve this problem soon.....with a 'throating reamer' coming from Pacific!

And..............................?

:drinks:
RRR

[RMulhern]

And..............................?

:drinks:
RRR

RICK

No receipt of reamer at this time! Still waiting!!

[smilie=6:

[DukeInFlorida]

Orville??? There's ANOTHER Orville hanging around?????

My name is Orville also!

PM me please, so I know who you are. :)


....same as Orville told me he has!

[Gunlaker]

Orville??? There's ANOTHER Orville hanging around?????

My name is Orville also!

PM me please, so I know who you are. :)

I don't know if he posts here much. He's mostly on the Shiloh board. Strangely enough, he goes by the user name of Orville :smile:

Chris.