Bullet style and bearing surface?

[Changeling]

Of the following 3 different styles of bullets in a given weight range/meplat, what gives the most bearing surface?

I consider these styles to be the Keith , LBT, and the Ranch Dog/TL designs. In regard to the RD/TL design I am not referring to using "tumble lube".

Any additional comments are very much appreciated, even that Wad Cutters have the most.

[Bass Ackward]

All a semi-wadcutter is, is a RNFP with non bearing length lead removed from the nose.

If all the weights are to remain the same, where does that extra lead have to go that came off the nose to keep the weights the same?

You just answered your own question.

[Heavy lead]

All a semi-wadcutter is, is a RNFP with non bearing length lead removed from the nose.

If all the weights are to remain the same, where does that extra lead have to go that came off the nose to keep the weights the same?

You just answered your own question.

With all due respect, not always. A lot of RNFP designs that I see have undersize or even no front driving bands, such as a box of WLN Cast Performance boolits I have in the basement in .45 caliber, they mic .4525 on all drive bands, but only .449 in front of the crimp groove in what appears to be a band, but is too small.
In reality I don't think you can make any blanket statement about any design be a wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, WFN, WLN, RNFP or what have you unless you see the specs on it, any one design COULD have more than another.

[Bass Ackward]

With all due respect, not always. A lot of RNFP designs that I see have undersize or even no front driving bands, such as a box of WLN Cast Performance boolits I have in the basement in .45 caliber, they mic .4525 on all drive bands, but only .449 in front of the crimp groove in what appears to be a band, but is too small.
In reality I don't think you can make any blanket statement about any design be a wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, WFN, WLN, RNFP or what have you unless you see the specs on it, any one design COULD have more than another.



The front band starts where the front band starts. NOT just because you expect one to be there. At that point, everything forward of the first point of contact (drive band) is unsupported nose weight. Meaning that it contributes NOTHING to the bearing or driving surface.


So my statement is applicable and it still stands. There is a reason that lighter bullets per caliber are usually semi wadcutters and why you need heavier than accepted weights per bore diameter to have a RNFP.

[S.R.Custom]

In other words, Changeling, if you're evalutating two different boolits, you'd have to add up the bearing surface lengths and compare them yourself. Bearing length is not a function of nose type. Or anything else, for that matter. It is, as a design criterion, purely arbitrary.

[Changeling]

In other words, Changeling, if you're evalutating two different boolits, you'd have to add up the bearing surface lengths and compare them yourself. Bearing length is not a function of nose type. Or anything else, for that matter. It is, as a design criterion, purely arbitrary.

What bullet manufacturers supply this information (bearing length) so one can make determinations? I don't recall any.

Bearing length most certainly is a function of nose length/style. When a designer puts his expertise to the task of designing a boolet his major priorities or just that. As for me adding up the bearing surface, get real. That is a function of the designer, normally portrayed as a Mechanical engineering diagram that is supplied to the Cherry maker.

Your way would be a wad cutter and swc and TC all the same, you need to rethink!

BTW, Bearing surface is usually considered from the base of the bullet to the uppermost limit of full contact of land grove engagement, bore ride is not a consideration.

[crabo]

Sounds like you have it all figured out. Why did you ask the question? (I'm not trying to be argumentative if it sounds that way.)

[leftiye]

A wadcutter will always have the longest bearing length - providing that all bands are full diameter - of any design for a given weight in a given caliber. I know - thanks for nothing? Other than that any design can be (and are) manipulated producing longer or shorter noses and therefore conversely longer or shorter bearing sections. Let's forget about bevel bases, and boattails, they only make things shorter elsewhere.

[44man]

Bearing length IS NOT IMPORTANT unless you have a boolit too long and heavy that the proper velocity can't be had for stability in the twist rate.
As long as the whole range of velocities can be worked, about any boolit can be made to shoot.
The front band in front of the crimp groove is not important either if the rest of the boolit fits. What counts is how the boolit is guided into the forcing cone and barrel. Nose shape is very important and even a Keith works if the base of the nose is over bore size ahead of the shoulder. It is the small nose that is the problem. If you stick the nose of a Keith in the muzzle and can wiggle it sideways, don't expect much. I think Elmer knew this and his boolits were right but mold makers thought appearance was a better selling point.
Grease grooves were blamed, flat bottom or round---hogwash, it was the change to the nose.

[45 2.1]

Some of the things you hear on these threads. First one guy says some Magnum handgun caliber is easy to get to shoot, then at a later date he can't find a good load for all his guns in that caliber. Next we have a fellow saying this or that isn't important after saying on previous threads he doesn't know why this or that didn't work. These guys are consistent on some things though, but not everything. Anybody recognize theirself? Somedays it doesn't pay to come here and read some of this stuff.

[44man]

The only thing I have ever said is that bearing length is more important then overall boolit length per twist rate so I don't know if you are talking about me or not.

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry pal but just because i find one caliber easier to load for then another but still cant find one load that shoots exceptional in 3 differnt guns isnt to far out of place if youve shot handguns at all. I can buy two handguns in the same caliber with consectuative serial numbers and both will prefer totatly differnt loads. Try 3 totaly differnt guns from differnt manufactures with differnt barrel lenghts. If you can do it please tell me how!!!!
Some of the things you hear on these threads. First one guy says some Magnum handgun caliber is easy to get to shoot, then at a later date he can't find a good load for all his guns in that caliber. Next we have a fellow saying this or that isn't important after saying on previous threads he doesn't know why this or that didn't work. These guys are consistent on some things though, but not everything. Anybody recognize theirself? Somedays it doesn't pay to come here and read some of this stuff.

[45 2.1]

sorry pal but just because i find one caliber easier to load for then another but still cant find one load that shoots exceptional in 3 differnt guns isnt to far out of place if youve shot handguns at all. I can buy two handguns in the same caliber with consectuative serial numbers and both will prefer totatly differnt loads. Try 3 totaly differnt guns from differnt manufactures with differnt barrel lenghts. If you can do it please tell me how!!!!

I don't know about "all" first of all, but it has been suggested several times that if what your doing doesn't work, try it another way. Elmer shot pretty darn well for a rather soft alloy (a whole lot softer than air cooled wheel weights) with 2400 powder at magnum velocity and pressure level, in a 4 inch Smith no less. He was a whole lot older than we are also. His load has shot rather well in the two dozen 44 Mags i've tried it in. All types and barrel lengths. 10 gr. and up of Unique is another well liked powder and charge range. Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Try something else, pick a different (softer) alloy that matches the pressure level you want to shoot at, duplicate what 44 Man is doing, etc. Don't give up though............

[Lloyd Smale]

Guess im still looking for "another way" that i havent tried in my 30 years of shooting and loading for handguns. thats why i come to this forum daily. Ive found the softer alloy theroy to work so seldom that its hard to justify wasting time on it much anymore. Never found to many case where deforming soft bullets in a good gun was giving me better accuracy. thats why im working to find a load that works in many guns, to save time. Not because im bored and want to repeat past mistakes and waste more time.

[Changeling]

Guess im still looking for "another way" that i havent tried in my 30 years of shooting and loading for handguns. thats why i come to this forum daily. Ive found the softer alloy theroy to work so seldom that its hard to justify wasting time on it much anymore. Never found to many case where deforming soft bullets in a good gun was giving me better accuracy. thats why im working to find a load that works in many guns, to save time. Not because im bored and want to repeat past mistakes and waste more time.


Loyd, as you know I have little experience with Revolvers and cast bullets. Just my 44Mag and the 260 gr WFN mold that LBT made me witch I used for hunting.

I came here because I was tired of using my custom rifles to shoot deer! Hell I could bust them out to 400 yd from my deck, never miss. This eventually just lost it for me one day, thats all I know!

I started looking things over on this site (Lurking every day) and found that I totally liked the idea of a 45 caliber flat point bullet. I had shot one deer with a 44 Mag Ruger BH and was hooked. But, I do believe bigger is better up to a point (dependent on game animal)

Therefore the question on the "styles" of bullets. I notice here that a lot of people get upset if anything is said "OR" someone wants to shoot a non SWC.

So then I started investigating just what made cast projectile accurate! All that data is still available to everyone on this web site. It soon became apperant that there was some people that knew what they were doing on both fronts SWC and LBT style projectile.
The guys using SWC styles are "non listening" meaning they don't seem to really care if there is something better out there or not, they use what Elmer told them was the best without even listening to other shooters.
Now I sincerely believe that what Elmer taught is probably the greatest advancement in bullet design that will ever become reality!
However that is not to say that his designs or best on every front. There are some awesome shooting designs out there, but no one wants to hurt or question the EK design of the SWC!

Thats BS, time stops for no man! When someone says, HEY, look what I am doing with some things that are not the EK way, I don't get upset, I want to read what the person has to say. Especially when some of these people are able to back up there statements!

I think that is the "Key"! Keep an open mind when someone says something that doesn't seem right to "YOU", don't hesitate to try what they said, or even use something that you think might work BETTER! After all, isn't that what made EK design his bullet versions? Think about it!

[44man]

I don't know about "all" first of all, but it has been suggested several times that if what your doing doesn't work, try it another way. Elmer shot pretty darn well for a rather soft alloy (a whole lot softer than air cooled wheel weights) with 2400 powder at magnum velocity and pressure level, in a 4 inch Smith no less. He was a whole lot older than we are also. His load has shot rather well in the two dozen 44 Mags i've tried it in. All types and barrel lengths. 10 gr. and up of Unique is another well liked powder and charge range. Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Try something else, pick a different (softer) alloy that matches the pressure level you want to shoot at, duplicate what 44 Man is doing, etc. Don't give up though............
I don't know about softer but I shot a ton of Keith boolits with complete satisfaction long ago. I loved the boolit. Then along came all the mold makers that thought they could IMPROVE the boolit.
What they failed at is the boolit is a very tricky one to fool with and even today it is hard to find a good one. It is a boolit that can shoot good from one gun and utterly fail in another. The gun just has to be better to start with.
To allow the boolit in those less then perfect guns all that is needed is to spread the diameter just in front of the shoulder. A wad cutter with a point is not the answer.
What is easier? Just do away with the shoulder! So since I am lazy and worthless, I go the easy route instead of buying and trying every Keith style mold out there. :veryconfu
I have a few molds that still have a shoulder but it is tiny and the boolits just plain work.
It always comes down to what portion of the nose will pull the cylinder into alignment so it goes straight into the bore. Up and down alignment is hopeless unless the pin is sloppy. To install a tight pin in some guns will worsen accuracy and I have seen sloppy custom guns shoot super. I have seen super tight guns shoot real bad.
I do not know how to help LLoyd but with an easier to work with boolit, the alloy, primer and powder is all that's left.
My experience has been that a load that shoots good in one .44 will shoot in all .44's unless the twist is different and then only a tweak in the charge is enough. The next problem is if you use too heavy a boolit in a gun that can't take recoil like the S&W 29, etc. But anything to 265 gr that will shoot in a Ruger will shoot in the S&W. In fact the S&W PREFERS 250 to 265 over a 240 gr. Not that the 240 shoots bad, I had too many 1/2" groups at 50 with them but the boolit will rotate around the flight path at long ranges. Up boolit length and it goes away.
I have worked very hard with the .44 since 1956 and only found some guns less accurate. The SRH is better then the SBH, The S&W equals or exceeds the SRH but is grip sensitive. Some Dan Wesson's are super, others suck. Other guns vary up and down.
The whole problem is we live so far apart.
Then the dies used will make or break accuracy so I use nothing but Hornady dies now. You NEED proper and even tension and a boolit hard enough to resist brass sizing them. Think brass first, then tailor the boolit to the brass and to the powder used. Each powder needs a different alloy if you fool with hardness but harder always seems to work best across the board. I don't like brittle, just tough lead.

[45 2.1]

Jim, not everybody here likes big gut busting loads. You and Lloyd seem to like them. Why don't you help him out and leave the lighter stuff to people who use them instead of telling everybody hard and heavy works for everything........which it doesn't.

[44man]

Jim, not everybody here likes big gut busting loads. You and Lloyd seem to like them. Why don't you help him out and leave the lighter stuff to people who use them instead of telling everybody hard and heavy works for everything........which it doesn't.
I shoot all kinds of loads, not just hunting stuff. You fail to realize I get all kinds of loads to shoot. Bass says the same things about my loads and I have never convinced him either! [smilie=l:
Yes, I shoot light boolits too. To tell the truth, they take more work and thinking.

[Lloyd Smale]

So do I and as a matter of fact the loads that sparked the other post were 250s at 900-1000 in the 44 mags. Probably 75 percent of my shooting involves loads like that. Theres proably not a week goes buy that 3 or 400 of them dont go down the barrel of a 44 or 45. Ive even killed quite a few animals with loads like that. Granted most hunting chores with 44s and 45s are taken care of with bullets around 300 grain at about 1100 fps but not allways. I guess other then recoil reduction i cant see what the lighter load will do that the heavy wont do better. Jim and I dont allways agree. As a matter of fact weve beat heads on more then one subject but one thing i appreciate about him is like me he can shoot in his back yard and shoots about daily and does do alot of testing and has probably killed more animals with handguns then most here and what he prints is what he sees. That means a hell of alot more to me then some scientific formula used to tell me a loads effectiveness or accuracy. Jim where you usually screw up is trying to get involved with beating heads with the scientists on here. My take on the gas check thing is i couldnt give a dammed why or how they work. What i care about is that they make it easier to make tiny little groups on paper. that ive proven to myself. I dont shoot theroy i shoot bullets. Funny thing is that none of my handguns have been to college and I guess they just dont know all those theroys because most dont work in them.

[45 2.1]

I shoot all kinds of loads, not just hunting stuff. You fail to realize I get all kinds of loads to shoot. Bass says the same things about my loads and I have never convinced him either! [smilie=l:
Yes, I shoot light boolits too. To tell the truth, they take more work and thinking.

You "get all kinds of loads to shoot". Whats that mean? I can get all kinds of loads also, but I didn't load them either and somebody else's stuff usually doesn't do to well.

You haven't convinced either one of us because of what you've written. That prose don't fly.

[44man]

You "get all kinds of loads to shoot". Whats that mean? I can get all kinds of loads also, but I didn't load them either and somebody else's stuff usually doesn't do to well.

You haven't convinced either one of us because of what you've written. That prose don't fly.
And why not? If I work up a hunting load with a 240 or 250 with a slow powder, it is easy. Just like any other boolit or bullet. Find the accurate load no matter what velocity it needs.
Now for a plinking load with Unique, 231, etc, that is where the work comes in. Working loads has less effect on accuracy so a guy can fool with 1/10 gr at a time but usually going from 7 gr to 10 gr does not show a great change. Several reasons! Instant thump on the boolit and a lower final velocity the boolit might not like.
Can I equal the slow powder--NO, but I can get consistent 1-1/2" groups at 50 yards with Unique and 231. I told everyone how several times.
Funny thing is that I do it with a 245 gr, PB RCBS semi wad cutter too and I dislike them.

[Lloyd Smale]

got to admit its a real rare gun that will shoot that 245 rcbs well. At least not well enough to make me happy. I dont like benching either. It was said in another post that shooting big bores should be done off hand. I guess im not going to go out in the field and use a sixgun unless i know what the load does on paper first. I guess you have to keep in mind that for some guys (probably most guys) if they can hit a beer can consistantly at 25 yards they think they have an accurate load.

[Lloyd Smale]

Its also kind of comical that guys that bad mouth big bore handguns are the same guys that dont bat an eyelash at hunting deer with a 4570 or a 300 mag. Why is a big bore handgun considered "gut busting" when its less powerful. Sure it takes a bit of dedication to master them but dont belittle someone who shoots them because you cant or dont want to take the time. I think i saw it posted elsewhere where a guy should experience all aspects of the shooting sport.

[44man]

Big bore revolvers have always amazed me with how effective they are for hunting. They have always amazed me with their accuracy potential. Yes, as good as I can make them shoot along with them being able to shoot better then I can shoot them, a better shot can make them sing.
I NEED a rest to work loads and sight in, then confirm from Creedmore. No way I can do the work off hand. After the work is when we shoot and practice off hand, never before. Never ask me to work a load off hand, you are barking at the moon! [smilie=l:
I am dense and zone out from a rest and nothing moves until recoil takes over but I am just an average shot any other way.
Work your gun from a rest and let shooting practice come in later once you have the accuracy. Remember that if your gun and load does not shoot, you will NEVER get better.
I have said many times that I can out shoot expensive revolvers and $4000 custom guns with a cheap Ruger or BFR. It is because I made the guns shoot, not that I am a better shot. I can't afford a $4000 gun but it can be made to shoot the same, never better, sometimes not as good. A barrel is a barrel is a barrel and if a Ruger has a good barrel it will equal anything out there. So far the BFR has proven to have the most precise measurements and are the easiest to get to shoot small groups.
Now I am worried because Magnum Research has been bought out.
I have had some very expensive guns here that I just can't get to shoot the way they should, also some Ruger's too. Never a BFR. Will the new owners ruin the gun by cutting expenses?

[mtgrs737]

I cast mostly RNF designs just because they load easier with a speedloader! My accuracy (or better lack of accuracy) isn't tied to a certain boolit design. LOL!

[jh45gun]

Its also kind of comical that guys that bad mouth big bore handguns are the same guys that dont bat an eyelash at hunting deer with a 4570 or a 300 mag. Why is a big bore handgun considered "gut busting" when its less powerful. Sure it takes a bit of dedication to master them but dont belittle someone who shoots them because you cant or dont want to take the time. I think i saw it posted elsewhere where a guy should experience all aspects of the shooting sport.


What I find interesting is the guys that figure you need the most powerfull magnum to hunt game and that guns like the 45/70 and 44/40 ect are obsolete and not good game takers but will shoot anything walking with a 44 mag. (before the other newer big bores were available and the 44 mag was the king of the hill.)

[44man]

What I find interesting is the guys that figure you need the most powerfull magnum to hunt game and that guns like the 45/70 and 44/40 ect are obsolete and not good game takers but will shoot anything walking with a 44 mag. (before the other newer big bores were available and the 44 mag was the king of the hill.)
I like the big bores like the .475 but I will never say anything bad about the .44. It is and always will be, a great caliber. I have taken many, many deer with it. It is one caliber I will never be without.
I fell for it in 1956 and the luster has never gone away.
The .41 is also great but you need to go to custom loads because the choice of molds and boolits is so poor.
Even though some like the really big bores, don't expect us to turn our noses down at the .44. It just is not so.

[jh45gun]

I like the big bores like the .475 but I will never say anything bad about the .44. It is and always will be, a great caliber. I have taken many, many deer with it. It is one caliber I will never be without.
I fell for it in 1956 and the luster has never gone away.
The .41 is also great but you need to go to custom loads because the choice of molds and boolits is so poor.
Even though some like the really big bores, don't expect us to turn our noses down at the .44. It just is not so.

Your reading me wrong maybe a did not state it well but what I meant to say was some guys will badmouth rifle calibers saying they are not up to a certain task and these cartridges in a rifle way surpass the 44 mag round yet those same folks have used a 44 mag in a pistol to shoot every thing walking on the planet and that's ok. Meaning since it is shot out of the pistol its all good and well even though ballistic wise the other cartridges are as good if nothing else if not superior. Not knocking the round or the use of the the pistol.

[Lloyd Smale]

Personaly i do more shooting and hunting with 44mags then all the rest of my handguns combined. Sure i like the 475 and 500s but even i dont want a every day diet of shooting them. 45gun i remember reading an article in a gun magazine. It was about just what your saying. Guys that scoff at a 4570 or even a 3030 for hunting think that the 475 and larger handguns are some kind of dinosour killing cannon. They figure they must be because of all the noise and recoil. In reality they have a hard time competeing with a black powder 4570. Same goes for the average guy shooting a 44 mag. He thinks because it kicks and jumps so much its got to be more powerfull then his trusted 270. When in fact looking at it on paper it isnt even close. One thing to keep in mind though as 44man said handguns like 44mags and 45 colts are more effective then the math guys will tell you. Alot of it is penetration. A cast handgun load will usually hands down outpenetrate about any rifle shooting soft point ammo. Personaly i think alot of it is guys who are dedicated enough to take up handgun hunting are a bit more skilled and know there limits and dont take marginal shots. There sure is exceptions to this though. More and more i see posts on the internet from some bozo that bought himself a 44 or worse yet a 460 or 500 smith and a couple boxes of shells and thinks there ready to hunt. It takes alot of shooting to reallly master even a mild recoiling gun like a 44 mag.

[44man]

Both of you show wisdom and tell it like it is. I was not taking anyone wrong.
Even the .475, though it kills faster then the .44 is not a blow the deer to Kingdom come round. I have been very pleased with it, very good internal damage yet no meat loss.
Better then the .44??? Well maybe 10 yards less covered by a deer on the average. Deer are more stunned by it but they are sure not torn to shreds. The good thing about the .475 is the ease to work loads with and like the .44, what works for deer will also work on huge animals.
I have a hard time picking the gun I start the seasons with so I try to use a different one for each deer.
I don't know why I love the .475 BFR so much unless it is the super accuracy, so easy to find and looking at my .44, I say "Too easy", like a rifle that I am used to.
.475 recoil adds another challenge.
To say any revolver is over powered is just so silly. We can not match rifles but a guy soon learns just how effective a revolver is. What more is needed?
Some love the 30' blood spray of a magnum rifle and the rag they take to the butcher. It is then out of their hands and they don't see the work involved to save some meat.
I do my own butchering and believe me, I will take the revolver--HANDS DOWN! [smilie=w:
I am not enthralled by single shot hunters either, just like a rifle with a scope and rest that can reach out as far as a rifle.
The bow hunter and revolver hunter are as good as it gets until we start with a spear. (I have a spear, but I am not throwing that stupid thing!)

[Lloyd Smale]

I remember when i first got into the linebaughs John saying that the 500 was the more accurate of the two. Ive owned 3 475s now and still have two and 5 differnt 500s and still have two and out of them the 475s have allways been a bit more accurate and eaiser to find good loads for. Id have to say that my 475s have been the easiest guns ive owned to find good loads for. Seems a guy could almost put sand in them and cap them with a rock and shoot good groups. Dont know if it was just luck of the draw and ive gotten good 475s or if theres something magical about the caliber.

[44man]

I remember when i first got into the linebaughs John saying that the 500 was the more accurate of the two. Ive owned 3 475s now and still have two and 5 differnt 500s and still have two and out of them the 475s have allways been a bit more accurate and eaiser to find good loads for. Id have to say that my 475s have been the easiest guns ive owned to find good loads for. Seems a guy could almost put sand in them and cap them with a rock and shoot good groups. Dont know if it was just luck of the draw and ive gotten good 475s or if theres something magical about the caliber.
My 45-70 BFR is more accurate then the .475 but it took a LOT of work. The .475 is just wonderful to work with.
The .44 takes a huge amount of thinking, the .45 is a little easier but not much.
The .500's need more immunity to recoil but should be accurate too.
I confess to grabbing the .475 for the first deer, it just grows on a guy.