Need advice on Sizing, Quenching, etc...

[Bad luck Bill]

Hi all,

I water quenched some bullets last night, lubed them (Lee Tumble method) and then sized them a little while ago. Do you think this will effect the hardness of the quenched bullets in a major way? With the Lee sizing dies you are supposed to lube the bullets before sizing so you don't lead up the die. Is this really neccesary? It takes extra time and lube because I have to relube them for my magnum loads. I plan on shooting these bullets Friday, will they reharden a bit by then?

Okay, next question: I have some wadcutters that I casted and water quenched last night, after casting and quenching I tumble lubed them (The mold is Tumble lube wadcutter design). Today, when sizing them, I noticed that they were a little harder to get through the sizing die...I guess the mold is producing the wadcutters a little fatter than my other molds. Anyway, I dropped some of those bullets into my revolvers chamber throats to see how the fit would be. They didn't drop out (good sign) but I couldn't push them out with a pencil either, should they definitely be sized because of this or could I try and shoot them unsized? Also, I did size some of them, should they be relubed or could I get by with just one coat of Lee Alox? They are wadcutters, so I'll be shooting them at slow velocities, betweem 700-850 FPS.

I'm wondering if I'll get better accuracy with an unsized bullet? Or would it actually be detrimental to good accuracy? The bullets I size fit the chamber throats fine and when pushed through with a pencil they offer only a very little resistance before passing through and dropping out. A buddy of mine sold me some copper jacketed round nose flat points, said they were very accurate in his Contender (.357). When I loaded and shot them I got terrible accuracy, though I was having a bad day. When I got home I grabbed a couple of them and checked to see how they fit my chamber throats. They dropped right through without any resistance, didn't even slow down a little! I figure they're just too small and a bad fit, not good for my BlackHawk.

I also have some 155 gr. wadcutters from the Lyman mold #358477 (They come out at 155 grains but the mold is a 150 grainer) and I was thinking I'd like to try them unsized too, should I forget about this and just size them? I'm not able to push them through my chamber throats when they're unsized, so is this a sign that sizing is definitely neccesary?

Bad Luck bill. :castmine:

[Bass Ackward]

BLB,

Two ways to harden a bullet. You can increase it's chemical composition. Or you can water drop it if it has arsenic in it. The hardness will be determined by how high the antimony content was as well as how fast the temperature dropped. Chemically, the hardness is ALWAYS there. The cooling does it by causing a crystiline structure to form. Size that area and for the depth that the crystiline structure was disturbed, the structure will be destroyed and all you have is the chemical composition hardness to fall back on.

Other things affecting hardness is bullet diameter. Lead is slow to transfer heat which is why it leads. Some water dropped bullets will be close to as hard as they are going to get in 24 hours. Some still get hard, but continue to harden for up to 30 days. I have had bullets that weren't any harder than air cooled one week later that I assumed I had a poor heat treat on and somewhere in the next three weeks, they ended up at 28 BHN. The best way to be sure is to set aside a few bullets for testing on a hardness teater and trying it before you shoot. I have even had bullets .... grow in diameter up to 3 weeks later as the structure formed.

Sizing causes or minimizes pressure. If you need pressure to seal your chambers and burn correctly because you are using a slow powder you might like larger than throat size bullets. Or if your alignment is fine, you may prefer throat size bullets. Or if your alignment is a little off, your gun might prefer bore sized bullets so they can wiggle in the throats a little without being deformed. Depends on your gun and your powder speed selection.

Bottom line, you just gotta try it.

[garandsrus]

Bill,

I would think that for the wadcutters at slow speed you would want air cooled bullets, not water dropped. The water cooled will probably be too hard. The general rule seems to be that the slower the speed, the softer the bullet you should use.

John

[Bad luck Bill]

True enough, i just got carried away a bit! Either way, I don't think it will hurt anything. So...no advice on sizing and any ideas on the adging effect coupled with sizing the next day, softening, etc.? See my message above please

[Larry Gibson]

True enough, i just got carried away a bit! Either way, I don't think it will hurt anything. So...no advice on sizing and any ideas on the adging effect coupled with sizing the next day, softening, etc.? See my message above please

Your WCs were harder to push through the sizer simply because you hardened them.

There is some misconceptions about hardening the bullets. Many think we harden bullets to keep them from stripping or skipping and not holding on the rifling. This is not true. Contrary to popular thought (myth mostly) soft cast bullets will hold the rifling and not skip up to a surprising velocity level. We harden bullets so they will hold thier form and not obturate (slough, bend or deform) during accelleration. The softer the bullet the more it deforms at a given velocity. A bullet that is obturated, bent or excessively deformed in acceleration will not be accurate. That is why hardened cast bullets shoot more accurately at higher velocity than softer ones. As it was mentioned we do this with heat treating or by altering the alloy for harder bullets.

Many also think that sizing after hardening negates the hardening. While this is true of the surface of the driving bands it is not true of the main part of the bullet that deforms the most during acceleration, the nose. Bullets with deep, large lube grooves or a scraper groove are also more suceptable to deformation during acceleration. I routinely size bullets after hardening and achieve the desired results from hardening, i.e. increased accuracy.

Keep in mind that there are other limitations to the level of accuracy you will get from cast bullets. In rifles the rate of twist which produces RPM is the biggest limiting factor. However in hand guns I have driven hard cast GC'd WCs out of a .357 as fast as thier SWC counterpart with equal accuracy, out to 50 yards anyway.

Your WCs will be fine but have you tried shooting them unsized as cast?

Larry Gibson

[hunter64]

I was tired of lubing the bullets, letting them dry overnight, running them thru the lee sizer and then re lubing them again and letting them dry again. So for the heck of it I ran the bullets right out of the bucket of cold water after drying them of course. I ran 20 thru and took out the die and no lead. I ran another 50 thru it and same thing. I don't lube before anymore because in my case it didn't make any difference. I water quench all my bullets which of course makes them hard so this is probably why I can get away with no lube before and most of my sizing is very slight like .310 to .309 instead of a .314 to .309 where there is considerable sizing taking place. Really the only grip I have with tumble lube is it gets on the nose of the bullet and after 30 bullets or so being seated with the dies, there starts to get some of the lube up into the die and the bullets will start to be seated farther into the case. You have to take the die out and clean it and then reinstall it or slowly back the knob out so the bullets don't go in as far. Lately I have been putting the bullets in a large 6X9 pan and pouring in the lube that has been thinned with mineral spirits, then I just use a pair of needle nose pliers and I pull them out and put them on wax paper to dry. This way none of the lube gets on the nose of the bullets and no more problems with gunk in the die.

[Bad luck Bill]

Larry:

I figured that the quenching added to the extra difficulty of getting the wadcutters through the sizing die but also suspected that the wadcutter mold was casting them a little fatter than .358-.359, probably to .360. I water quenched some .358 TL semi-wadcutters and they moved through the die without any problems, but we're talking a different design than a full wadcutter. Could it be that a wadcutter has more surface which added to more contact while sizing?

As for not sizing them and shooting as is; that was one of the questions I asked, see my post above as I talk about not being able to push the unsized bullets through my chamber throats with a pencil. I thought this might be a sign that they were too big and should be sized. I'm still wondering if I should shoot some unsized or not?

Thanks guys,

BLB> :castmine:

[Bad luck Bill]

Hunter,

I've been wondering about that myself! Thinning the Alox with mineral spirits and dunking only the bases in, so it works good, huh? thanks for doing the leg work!

[klausg]

Bill- I don't use the Lee liquid lube, but I do like their sizer dies. I can't remember who it was on here that told me to try this method, but it works for me. I just spray all the bullets to be sized with a little WD-40 & run them through. I'm not sure if that would interfere with the bond of the liquid alox or not, I tend to think not but only a test will tell.

-Klaus

[Bad luck Bill]

Klaus,

After using the Lee sizing dies how do you lube your bullets?

BLB

[klausg]

Bill- right now I am still pan-lubing as I haven't gotten off my kiester long enough to clean up & mount the used 450 I purchased; well we won't go into how long ago [smilie=1: . It involves playing in the kitchen, but I'm single so I'm allowed to do 'silly' things in there. "goatlips" has a fairly idiot-proof site that has lots of nice pictures on the process, http://goatlipstips.cas-town.com/casting.html, (hopefully that worked as I are a 'puter idiot). If not search for my thread "Casting for Dummies"; goatlips' site is very informative and the pictures really helped slow people like me :mrgreen: . The only changes to his method that I use are: a) I use the stovetop, and b) the whack 'em w/ a knife handle didn't work for me, I use a heat gun to slightly heat up the boolit/lube matirx and then push them out w/ my thumb. I have found pan-lubing to be a PITA w/ wad cutters (not much nose there) and a pain in the thumb w/ real pointy type boolits. Hope this helps.

-Klaus

[Bad luck Bill]

Interesting...you've got a lubrisizer and aren't using it! Shame on you Klaus, for shame! Wish I had one, I'd be lubing the hell out of my bullets, beats tumble lubing them, that's for sure! I had a problem a few minutes ago with the Alox fouling up my seating/crimp die. I was getting different OAL on my bullets...at least I'll be able to test different seating depths and how they might affect accuracy. I try to stay positive and make a little lemon aid out of the lemons life sometimes gives me. I cleaned out the Alox from my die by using a Q-tip and some mineral spirits, it's sparkling clean now!

BLB. :castmine:

[454PB]

I've been experimenting with quenched boolits for the last few months. The preliminary results are that if sized immediately after cast, the boolits continue to surface harden for a several weeks, then stay there. If sized weeks after casting, they begin to surface soften and eventually end up at the chemical hardness. I've still got little piles of labeled samples scattered around my loading room that I run a hardness test on every couple of weeks.

There is no reason to use boolit lube or liquid alox to ease the journey through the sizing die, just about anything slippery will serve for that.

As to shooting them unsized, as long as the cartridge will chamber, they can be fired unsized. With my handguns, they usually won't chamber, or they chamber with force. In my rifles, it seems less of a problem.

[Bad luck Bill]

thanks 454,

I noticed that I got a lot less leading with water quenched bullets and magnum loads. I gues if I let the water dropped bullets sit around longer they will get harder? I cast them about a day or so before shooting, so if I cast them, let's say, this weekend and then shoot them five days later, they will be much harder? Will a gas check help to reduce the leading problems I've been having? All my cast bullets are working great at lower velocities, but once I push them past !000 FPS they start to lead the barrel.

BLB. :castmine:

[georgeld]

BLB:
A few things from the way I see it, right, or wrong, they'll differ from some of the others on here so just consider it as George's way, and you'll do fine.

First thing you need to do with every gun you intend to cast for. Slug that barrel, then slug it a couple more times using fairly soft lead. Take notes and keep them in your loading book, or whatever records you keep. This will solve most of your problems.

When it come's to leading, or satisfying your women. Hardness is the trick!!
The harder they are, the less leading you'll get. When your bullets are plumb hard, by that I mean hard enough you have trouble marking them with a thumbnail they are just about right. I don't have a hardness tester, costs too much for a poor boy like me. I'd rather buy molds, guns, dates instead. Maybe someday I'll find one at a discount when I don't have another gun on order.

It seems to work best when your bullets are sized at least on thousandths over bore dia, up to two over, but, don't exceed that if you can help it as that creates a bit more pressure and might show up on the target, or elsewhere.

Lee says their molds are so perfect you can shoot the bullets as cast. Whether that means dry, not lubed ,or lubed and not sized I haven't figured out what they're tying to say yet.

Lubrisizers, expect I'm gonna stir up the hornets with this comment. But, I don't have one and wouldn't use it if someone gave me one. Because: Like Lee claims, the lube is in the groove's not on the rubbing surfaces where it belongs. What good does it do when it's all down in the grooves and not on the rubbing surfaces????? Think about it. Would you run an engine with oil in the pan, and not in the bearings???? Huh? Hell no you wouldn't. Why would you do the same thing with your bullets??

With your bullets hard enough you can reach, or some exceed 2400fps with cast and not have leading.
Another major thing that causes leading is roughness in the bore. Polish that bore with JB, Corbins, or one of the several others if it's leading at all with hard bullets. Then shoot a few and see the difference.
Also, with leading in a bore, it can be a PITA to get it out, same as plastic from sabots, or shotshells and copper fouling. Here's the trick to get that mess out no matter what it might be: Blue Wonder Gun Cleaner, soak a bronze brush, ten strokes, ten minute break, ten more strokes, then patch it clean. IF that don't get it all out, do it again and it will. Two things: Don't get it on the stock, or the finish is GONE! make damn sure you oil that metal immediately after it's patched or it WILL flash rust. IF/when you get flash rust from it, or anything thing else. Just clean it as above, patch it clean and oil it up. That will take the rust out/off too. Best gun cleaner ever made. Anyone having doubts, just try it like this and you'll most likely agree.

This may not have covered all your questions, but, it will give you enough to get most of your problems taken care of.

[454PB]

thanks 454,

I noticed that I got a lot less leading with water quenched bullets and magnum loads. I gues if I let the water dropped bullets sit around longer they will get harder? I cast them about a day or so before shooting, so if I cast them, let's say, this weekend and then shoot them five days later, they will be much harder? Will a gas check help to reduce the leading problems I've been having? All my cast bullets are working great at lower velocities, but once I push them past !000 FPS they start to lead the barrel.

BLB. :castmine:

What I've found so far using wheelweights is that when I size them within hours of quenching, they are at around BHN 24 at a week. At 2 weeks around 28 BHN, and at a month 30 to 32 BHN. Other than those parameters, I can't say.....yet. It would only be conjecture and opinion. Yes, they will be harder a week after sizing, but not as hard as they will be with more time. Also, I can't say what the results will be if they are sized more than a few hours after quenching. The ones I've sized a few weeks after quenching begin to resoften almost immediately......right back to unquenched wheelweight hardness.

Assuming good lubrication and proper diameter for the bore and throats, I've never had any leading using gas checked boolits, and I've pushed them to 2500 fps in my rifles. Others on this board report even higher velocities with good results.

I'm not a big fan of quenching for hardness, I use other means to avoid leading and produce accuracy for 90% of my shooting. I've only returned to it due to the increasing cost and decreasing availability of gas checks. It also was sparked by my curiousity and to confirm or disprove some of the ideas that I read and accepted for a long time. Yours and others results may vary......

[Bad luck Bill]

So, wheel weights cast without water quenching, but with a gas check...shouldn't lead up the bore at all? If I do keep on water quenching my bullets they should be sized withing the first few hours after casting and they will get harder as time goes on, within the first month or so, then stabilize for a year/year and half, then begin to soften again. Do I have things down pretty good now? Do you have any advice for a new shooter as it concerns reducing groups size? Do you think I should find one good load/bullet and stick with it vs. shooting a bunch of different loads and bullet designs as I am now? I'm thinking of the Lyman #358311 over 3.0 grains of either BullsEye or Tight Group, what do you think?

BLB.

P.S.,

Thanks for all of the help George. :mrgreen:

[454PB]

I don't yet know when or if the quenched then immediately sized boolits will resoften. Others say they will, only long term testing will prove it to me.

Yes, properly sized and lubed wheelweight boolits wearing a gas check will not lead in a traditional handgun. I push them to 1600 fps in my .454 Casulls with no leading and good accuracy.

As to load recipes for .38 Special, others are better qualified to help you there, though I do load them, most of my handguns are "bigger". Good old Bullseye has served me well, along with Unique, HS-5, HS-6, WW 231, and all the Dots.....Red, Green, and Blue.

I can't see a need in the world for a gas check design in a .38 Special load.

[Bad luck Bill]

I have a BlackHawk, so I shoot .38's and I shoot Magnum .357's. The gas checked bullets are strictly for the .357 hot loads.

Bad Luck Bill. :castmine: