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View Full Version : Of Goofy Lube, FWFL, Fillers, and a Dirty Rifle



JohnH
05-08-2005, 10:26 PM
Well, all is not ever as it seems I guess. For the best part of the last 2 years I have been using a lube I loosely refer to as Goofy Lube. Stuff had it's start basically as Emmerts, 50/50 beeswax and olive oil. Over time I added other stuff, some Slick 50, some parafin,some Lman Super Moly, burned it once on reheating so I added more beeswax and some FWFL I had I thought I had messed up. Altogether it worked good. No leading at 1800 fps, worked really good pan lubing, no cookie cutter required, set the pan in the fridge after the lube set and in about 10 or 15 minutes you could push 'em out by hand.

Put some of this in my Lyman 4500 sizer, worked good there too. Kinda soft, more than a bit slick. Left a bit of itself behined after each shot, nothig to worry about, but it was there.

Then I got to worrying about this first shot flyer. Was suggested that the lube could be the culprit, not that there was a discussion along those lines, just an idea a fellow had.

I wanted to ignore this, as the only other lube I have is one stick of RCBS rifle lube and a batch of FWFL I made I thought was ruined. I had added parafin to it, was soft and sticky when made and did not work as a pan lube at all. Thought stiffening would help. Nope. So I put it on the shelf, till today. I really wanted to ignore it, I really didn't want to have to clean out my sizer, but then decided there was no gain in continuing to make the same mistakes expecting different results. There was only one way to find out if the lube was the problem, change it.

I had read somewhere that FWFL that had been made too hard with parafin could be softened with petrolatum jelly (more commonly, petroleum jelly). Well it turns out that a product used to prevent weld spatter from sticking during wire welding processes is.....petrolatum jelly with an additive of 1% that aids in preventing tinning. Welco Kleen Green for those interested. I melted my FWFL, added 2 tablespoons of Kleen Green, emptied and refilled my sizer with this stuff.

Success!!!!!!............., well sorta.

Remembered that on changing bullet lube it was highly advisable to clean the barrel completely and start clean. So I took a brush and solvent to my 357 Max and the more I cleaned, the dirtier I realized the rifle was. Thing was filled with gummy soot. At first I thought it was just that dirty #107, but it turns out there is a partner in crime....goofy lube

After getting it clean, first shot was high, then low, then it began to settle down and four 10 shot groups later I had 3 in a row that the first shot was in with the rest of the group. Group size changed a little to the better, but overall about what I would expect to see from this rifle and bullet except the bore ain't filthy. Seems that even though my goofy lube was preventing leading, it was also leaving a gummy film behind that stuck to everything. I mean everything. Amazing the difference FWFL made in the amout of debris in the barrel.

As to fillers...... well after spending nearly a week cutting up little squares of polyester and hoarding the dogs toys stuffing, with over 400 rounds in 3 rifles, two powder changes and a variety of charge weights and what I've seen today, overall, I don't think this polyester fill is doing anything for me that a dang good cleaning and a change of lube hasn't done.

All this did lead to a change of powder in the 357 Max, figured that since I had some AA#2, it would be good to give it a real go round. 4.7 grains, no filler, Lee's 158 RF shoots into nice 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 " groups. Nothig to brag about, and no real change in group size, but at 1500 rounds to the pound it adds up to a substancial savings, as I had been using 7.3 of #107.

I shoot reduced loads as much to not be a bother to my neighbors as to save, so I figure I will have to accept a level of inaccuracy, but it was good to expand my learning experience. Seems that the most difficult part of learning is becoming teachable. Sometimes that means doing something I'd rather not do. But no doubt that FWFL is much cleaner than my lube and that is a great benefit in itself.

Bass Ackward
05-08-2005, 11:34 PM
So I took a brush and solvent to my 357 Max and the more I cleaned, the dirtier I realized the rifle was. Thing was filled with gummy soot.

John,

This is what I continue to try and understand. (Curse to be dumb.)

Anytime you pull the trigger, you get carbon. Any time you have a petroleum based product, mix with carbon, the resulting product is tar. Tar hardens. Tar thickens with colder temperature. Tar builds up reducing rifling height. Or said another way, tar causes purge fliers.

In view of this, I clean after each and every outing. Sometimes mid-shoot if I see patterns change. I just can't beat it, so I clean. Be nice if we could get a bullet lube that had no petroleum based products in it at all.

StarMetal
05-08-2005, 11:37 PM
Bass

Fish oil and beeswax

Joe

Bass Ackward
05-09-2005, 10:00 AM
Bass

Fish oil and beeswax

Joe

Joe,

Yea, my mind started working last night after I wrote that. I was thinking that and maybe some bear grease if'n I could find a sourse. I got these fish oil horse capsuls that I hate anyway. Then again, I can't be the first to think of this, why ain't there somethin already on the market if it would really solve problems? I mean Felix surely would have found a substitue if there was one.

I am not a lube guy. I hate lube. It is a necessary evil, so I use it. I design bullets to get around it as best as I can. I use the bare minimum that I can .... and .... it still get's me every time I turn around.

Bullshop was touting his lube too as full synthetic. Maybe? But I'll bet it has something petroleum based in it. Yo Dan?

StarMetal
05-09-2005, 10:17 AM
Bass

Actually Felix and I did discuss fish oil. He said it makes a very good lube, but the main problem is the odor. Well I went ahead and made some. I used the stuff out of the capsules just as you mentioned. Just fish oil, beeswax, and I used a wee bit of a very scented candle to stiffen it up and kill off the odor and it worked. I've been shooting it and it seems fine. I don't seem to have that first shot out of a cold barrel, uncleaned barrel that is, that wanders out of the group, so I guess the my lube isn't leaving much of a bad residue behind.

Another thing, and Carpetman may like this, it's hard to keep the cats away from my lube. hee hee

Joe

Bass Ackward
05-09-2005, 11:03 AM
Bass

Actually Felix and I did discuss fish oil. He said it makes a very good lube, but the main problem is the odor.

I don't seem to have that first shot out of a cold barrel, uncleaned barrel that is, that wanders out of the group, so I guess the my lube isn't leaving much of a bad residue behind.

Joe

Joe,

My problem, (of which there are many) is that I am not a chemist. So I make a lot of .... Goofy Lube (*trademark of JohnH).

We have a pioneer festival every year. There is one gentleman there that cuts rifle barrels for BP uses and he does everything by hand. His only cutting lubricant is bear grease. His can was over 6 years old (he said) and it doesn't smell. It had a darn nice consistency to it too.

The problem with you fish oil lube is that I usually shoot soft and fast. I need a higher viscosity lube that has those same properties. And forget lanolin.

Your bubblegum lube would work great for handguns, especially automatics. Where guys want to shoot clean and don't have rifling height to fight sludge either.

People are starting to associate me with that lube. So you might as well post a thread about it. Because I am getting mail wanting me to tell them how to do it.

felix
05-09-2005, 12:08 PM
BA. yes, the lanolin percentage should be kept quite low in lube, and just enough for the job on hand. Lanolin, on its own, will become quite hard over time, especially when mixed with outside weather. If fact, it will become almost rock hard in a couple of years. I use the lanolin at 100 percent as a glue for coupling polyethylene water pipes, wrapped with a rubber sleve made for the purpose. The junction still moves aftwards over time, and that movement is required for my swimming pool application where swimmers won't connect with something too solid.

If you guys are SERIOUSLY interested may I suggest trying Mobil's Polyrex Grease. It is a chained urea. It has plenty of viscosity, and will remain really soft in all polar temps, and will stay together in any desert you will encounter. Probably will be a good lube for a boolit with no grooves. Downside? Not many solvents can cut it. ... felix

StarMetal
05-09-2005, 12:38 PM
Felix

The Slick 50 ONE sythetic grease I use in my lube is probably pretty close to the Mobil grease you speak of. It's the lube that I shot some of those one inch groups with my 7mm-08 at nearly 2700 fps with. It seems to stay at the same consistancy hot or cold. If you remember when I shot that 7mm there was nothing in the barrel, as tho I fired jacketed out of it.

Felix I'll send you a pm on what the bubble gum lube is Bass and I speak of so look for it.

Joe

nighthunter
05-09-2005, 04:30 PM
Starmetal .... what else do you use added to the slick 50? Could you post a recipe for us? Sounds kinda interesting.
Thanx

JohnH
05-09-2005, 06:07 PM
nighthunter, there are probably half a dozen different variations on the theme, so just jump right in there and brew some up at a rate of 50/50 or 60/40 beewax to synthetic grease, especially that with moly. Many claim that such lube a lube (moly grease and beeswax) smells and performs just like Lyman Super Moly, a few have gone so far as to raise the question "Is this the same stuff Lyman sells at $4.00 a tube????"

Emmerts lube, commonly 50/50 beeswax and olive oil (Criscoe can be substituted) actually works pretty dang good in wheel guns with 900 fps or slower loads. I prolly shot a 5 gallon bucket of that stuff through a 45 Blackhawk and a Springfield 1911 Gov't Model with nary a hitch. If you use the olive oil, 60-40 does a little better as at 50% it tends to "leak" out of the bees wax.

The fish oil sounds danged interesting.

I was once going to raise a thread on lube, but decided I need to know a bit more of how it actually works before I opened my mouth. Do a search and find The Los Angles Silhouette Club. There, find an article by Glen E, Fryxell "Lubricating Cast Bullets" I don't have the addresses, sorry, but this is a very good article, completely changed what I thought about how lube works. I probably would not have changed out my Goofy Lube if Ihave not read this article. Understanding how lube works and seeing so much in print about FWFL helps the realization of just how good FWFL is.

There is also a "Bullet Lubes Formulas Web Site" (Literally that) Do a Google search and visit, it'll open your mind I assure you.

StarMetal
05-09-2005, 06:15 PM
I can forewarn you that if you blend beeswax and any grease at a 50/50 that you are going to end up with one gooy soft unuseable lube. You don't nearly use that much grease and you use a wee bit of ATF oil to melt the grease in first.

Joe

felix
05-09-2005, 06:19 PM
Joe, Polyrex is a chained urea. No mica, no moly, no nuthin' besides chained urea. Thanks for showing me your bubble gum formula. You should put that up on the board as well. Keep in mind that only a minor amount of zinc, aluminum, and a few other elements will work good in a pot of lead, so don't throw a bunch of boolits back into the pot after being lubed with the bubble gum. On the otherhand, if you are casting gas checked boolits, and you want to contract the size of the shank end just a little, then a few more lubed boolits can be thrown into the pot. These elements will contract the sharp edges and make rounded edges. Just what the doctor ordered for a check slightly too big and sharp. ... felix

Maven
05-09-2005, 06:32 PM
If it's lube formulae you want, try the Cast Bullet Association's publication by Ralph Schneider, "Cast Bullet Lubricants, 3rd Edition, 2002." You can purchase it or possibly pay $5.00 to download it, but it's worth it. Btw, the 3rd edition also includes Felix Lube.

nighthunter
05-09-2005, 06:38 PM
In my line of work we use a special moly lube on machine linkage. The linkage is enclosed in the machines and extremely difficult to get to. We have applied the moly lube then run the linkage for long periods of time with no other lubrication and had no wear on the pins or links. This stuff is black in color and very very thick in viscosity. Do you think it would be worth adding a tiny bit of it to bullet lube?

fecmech
05-09-2005, 08:47 PM
John h--I am a rank amateur as far as lubes are concerned but I will take issue with one of Mr. Fryxell's ideas. He states that hot gases leak into the lube groove, melting the lube and blowing it fwd as a method of lube distribution. I live in the Buffalo NY area and shoot quite a bit in the winter time. I am able to recover a lot of bullets just laying on top of the grass when the snow melts and they are just as they left the barrel with no damage to them. I am speaking primarily of handgun loads or handgun cartriges out of rifles(.357 single shot). It has been my experience that any time the propellent gases get past the base into the lube groove, accuracy has gone south and leading occurs. I try different loads in different places on my property and in many cases loads that did not perform well have badly gas cut bases continuing right up the sides of the bullets. In the area that I shoot in with my proven loads for target practice, the bullets I find have no or minute gas cutting on the outer edge of the base with nothing extending into the lube groove. Those gases are from 10-40kpsi and cut like a aceytelene torch ,imo once they get past the base, its game over. Nick

JohnH
05-09-2005, 10:10 PM
fecmech, I only posted the link, I'm no judge myself of lube or how it works. the article did open my mind to a whole different aspect of lube and the relationship between the lube/bullet/gas pressure, and that was my point in listing the post, to help others, perhaps like myself, get some new information or a clearer idea of what happens when we pull the trigger on a cast bullet load. Mr. Fryxell, as I understand, is giving a summary some information in the old NRA publication "Cast Bullets" which has been a standard of cast bullet making and shooting for at least 50 years now. The gentleman who created this text (an Ed Harris IIRC, But Not CE Harris) is also the gentle who created the NRA alox lube formulation, Given the success of this particular lube and the impact his work has had on cast bullet shooting, rethinking what he puts forward is well worth the listen. Unfortunately, the text is out of print, so we cannot know the entirety of the text, but to assume Mr. Fryxell is the originator of the idea would be a great mistake.

Personally, I have never been much of a believer in the idea that gas can actually melt the bullet base and create leading that way (a phenonemon different from gas cutting, but surely related) as there is simply not enough time in the bore for this kind of heat transfer to occur. A bullet travels the length of the bore in less than 1/100 of a second. This is less than the time required to blink your eyes. I cannot with a 6000 dF acetelyne torch heat a bullet to melting to in that time. I've tried. Perhpas I am unable to recreate the attendant pressure, but I can assure you, passing a cutting torch over the base of the bullet for the duration of an eye blink produces little if anything that looks like gas cutting or edge melt. I actually have less trouble with the concept of gas cutting than I do with that of flame temperature creating leading as a result of melting some portion of the base, and I tend to lean toward you, what about lube is going to stop a high temperature, high pressure gas jet that a bullet has not?,

Again, there is some trouble I have with this whole conversation. How is it that a plain lead bullet is capable of sealing against a gas jet of say 15,000 psi (a 38 Special) in the first place? Why is it that the gas jet simply doesn't cut it's way past the entire base? What property does lube have that aids in prevention of this? Better yet, how is it that molybdnium disulfide alone can prevent leading of 38 wadcutters at 600-800 fps? We don't even have a fluid lube seal in this case.

Lube is pretty tough stuff. It goes form a solid to a liquid or semi liquid state in less than 1/100th second. It withstands gas pressure as low as 5000 psi and as high as 50,000 psi if not greater, and velocities of as great as 2500-3000 fps We've not spoken of rotational forces. That any lube works at all is a greater surprise than that there are a number of formulas that work

JohnH
05-09-2005, 10:33 PM
John,

This is what I continue to try and understand. (Curse to be dumb.)

Anytime you pull the trigger, you get carbon. Any time you have a petroleum based product, mix with carbon, the resulting product is tar. Tar hardens. Tar thickens with colder temperature. Tar builds up reducing rifling height. Or said another way, tar causes purge fliers.

In view of this, I clean after each and every outing. Sometimes mid-shoot if I see patterns change. I just can't beat it, so I clean. Be nice if we could get a bullet lube that had no petroleum based products in it at all.

The surprising part is how well the rifle would shoot as dirty as it was. It was so dirty that the lock (an NEF remember)was at the edge of not not catching, yet it was shooting as good then as after I cleaned it. While there was obvious trash in the bore after each pull of the trigger, I don't think there was a significant buildup in the bore. When I cleaned my lubesizer up, I took a hairdryer to it, and the edges of the spilled over material begn to liquify almost immediately form the heat. I think one way this lube was working is that the film left behind was remelting and cooling at each shot, keeping the bore evenly coated.

I think perhaps the ideal lube leaves none of itself behind. I must admit that I am not a fanatic about cleaning, as you can see, I will put it off as long as I can get away with it. I've yet to own a rifle, or handgun for that matter whose accuracy suffered using cast bullets over long strings of shooting, the action always began in some way to fail to work properly. This probably means I have owned the common firearms made by factories for general public consumption. It actually speaks well to just how good a gun the major makers are turning out IMHO.

What is most surprising to me was how much this gummy crap was distributed throughout the frame and action. I know that I'm running low pressure loads, but it is surprising how much gets past the case. I need to think harder about that. It could be that I need to find a load using a 38 Special case that will shoot in this rifle.

JohnH
05-09-2005, 10:34 PM
Starmetal, OK, I give up, Just what is bubblegum lube???

fecmech
05-09-2005, 11:22 PM
John--I don't have a digital camera that I can post pics with but I can assure you that through whatever combination of pressure and temp that takes place when the cartridge is fired, can melt and cut the lead. I will try and borrow one this weekend to take some pics of the bullets I have on hand and post them for you to see. I think the lube acts like a piston ring in a car engine preventing the gas from escaping past but like I said in my first post, I'm no lube expert.

carpetman
05-10-2005, 02:13 AM
JohnH--I am with you on this one. You can quickly pass your finger through a flame and not get burned. The time you do that is indeed slow compared to how long a bullet is subjected to the flame. I'll take your word for the 1/100th of a second,wouldn't have thought typically that its that long. Will have to say if there was enough heat to melt the lead in that short time--the heat would be severe enough to be making gun barrels red hot. The lube does most likely become liquid (been so long since I was in a gun barrel that I don't remember). Would seem it goes forward as the pressure and bullet going that way and I have never known a lube that didn't go along with the crowd. If it is liquid,we know it aint being compressed or the brakes on our cars wouldnt work.

MARCORVET
05-10-2005, 02:46 AM
Carpetman, you are getting into fliud dynamics. Hydraulic fluids do not compress. However, if you put water, or even engine oil into a brake system, you better have a drag chute. Waxes and pet products are fairly easy to compress.

carpetman
05-10-2005, 03:02 AM
Macrovet---The way I heard it was LIQUIDS dont compress---no hydraulic specs to meet--just liquids. If water for example doesnt work in brakes(I'll take your word on that--I haven't tried it--seriously have you?) it would be because of boiling away or something,but not from being compressed. I suspect they dont use water in brake lines because of the rust factor. When you used this water in your brake lines,did you bleed them? Air can be compressed and has to be removed.

carpetman
05-10-2005, 03:10 AM
Marcovet--Forgot to add--"waxes are easy to compress"--yes in solid state they would have air and be compressable---but turn them into liquid and you dont compress them. Thats why I said I suspect they are liquid in the bore and thus not compressed. Same with ice. It has air thus it floats and you can compress it. Thawed out---cant be done. Urr uhh when thawed it's guess what---a liquid. Pet products--dont know what you are referring to there---but not a liquid. Certainly a can of dog food could be. Kitty litter---do it when the cat is in there and despite their being 90% or so liquid,you can compress that other 10%. Try it on a few---make that a whole bunch and post the results.

carpetman
05-10-2005, 03:31 AM
Marcovet---Not to beat the issue to death,just another thing to ponder. I have seen deer shot with a 30-06 that have close to a 6 inch exit hole. You really think a 150 grain bullet would expand to 6 inches? Get a hammer,a big hammer and try to flatten out a bullet to 6 inches. If you make it,you think that flimsy piece of foil would cut through a deer? The deer is 90% or so liquid already and when struck with those 3,000 pounds or whatever it is of pressure,it probably removes the air or whatever that other 10% is and effectively makes it 100% liquid and is applying pressure and not being compressable it escapes someplace--which is on the off side thus the big hole. The bullet if recovered might have a mushroom(plunger effect on the liquid)but wont be anywhere near 6 inches---but the hole was.

MARCORVET
05-10-2005, 06:24 AM
Pet is short for PETroleum products where I work. I guess that I thought that you would understand that. Sorry.

StarMetal
05-10-2005, 11:45 AM
Buckshot and I have done alot of sizing down of cast bullets from one size to a much smaller size. We have found out that if this is done without the bullet being lubed first that the lube grooves will distort alot. After all you're displacing the metal and it has to go somewhere and if no lube is on it, it will take up the space the groove was in. With the lube the bullet grows alot longer because the lube keeps the metal from occupying that space. So....maybe wax in the solid state isn't so compressable.

Joe

StarMetal
05-10-2005, 11:57 AM
I think pressure is involved in the hot powder gases cutting the lead. You can run your finger through a candle flame fast and not get burned, but try that with a high pressure jet flame of some sort. I'll tell you something that's not a flame but will cut your fingers or even you hand off. That is superheated steam. You never check for a superheated steam leak with your hand, you use a mirror.

Joe

JohnH
05-10-2005, 09:44 PM
I don't know the time of a bullets flight down the bore, I just know that it is LESS that 1/100th second, I would suspect that it is far less than that, or about 1/10,000 second, and is why I have such trouble with the idea of the bullet losing metal to melt as a result of the heat of the flame, just ain't enough time. I don't doubt gas cutting, thought I said so, may not have been clear, but I think that is a rare phenonemon, at least somewhat. If, a bullet is too hard to obturate to fill the throat/bore then I am sure gas cutting will occur, and I think that senario most likely with hard bullets and hard lubes and mild pressures. But if a bullet properly fits the throat/bore then how is it that gas cutting can occur? We are in fact instructed when using cast bullets to insure that the bullet fits so that this does not occur, so if one is getting gas cutting, something is wrong, wrong hardness for the pressure, wrong lube for the pressure, bad bullet fit (always the first suspect). We are always up against the limits of any given bullet hardenss and lube quality.

What cannot be argued is that as bullet speed is increased, the quality of the lube must be up to the task as well. If the lube won't take the pressure/velocity there is little a hard bullet can do but lead. At least so we are told, and I suspect is correct, as I can drive 20:1 to 1800 fps from my 38-55 with Goofy Lube and Lyman Super Moly, but I can't get there with simple Emmerts, though Emmerts is just fine at 1000 fps. (Haven't tried FWFL at 1800 yet, but I hear it is up ot the task)

It may be that another contributing factor to leading is friction heat. Now this I have much leass trouble believing, and it may be that when the bullet is driven with enough pressure and velocity, that the lube liquifies as a result of friction. We know that the lube melts, how else would a lube star at the muzzle be formed? We also know that when the lube is not of a quality or quantity (as the case may be) to hang with the bullet to the end of the bore, we get leading. At this point, I am at the limit of my knowledge and experience.

StarMetal
05-10-2005, 10:09 PM
John

I can't see the lube turning to liquid when alot of us find bullets in the target or dirt that still have some if not all their lube. You would think that if it's a liquid for the short time in the bore that it would spin off upon the bullet exiting the muzzle. I don't think so much that the bullet alloy is melted by the powder flame, but cut. I think the gas finds the weakess point on that bullet/bullet base and starts in there. From examining alot of fired bullets, and especially ones that are gas checked, it appears the pressure is more concentrated in the center axis of the bullet. Felix said something about this one time when I mentioned it. I find alot of gas checks that are really cupped, towards the bullet, on bullets I have recovered.

Joe

felix
05-10-2005, 11:01 PM
JohnH, no, the lead does not melt anytime, unless by blowby which does the ugly deed on sharp corners that are not covered completely & tightly by the barrel/chamber. Lead will strip off in slivers that might or might not be seen upon sunlight inspection. More than likely, you will get a lead wash, which for our argument is extremely small slivers anyway. This leading (coppering for condoms) occurs when the barrel says it likes the boolit better than the boolit itself does. (Sorta' like wife stealing). Increasing the toughness, not necessairly the hardness, of the lead will circumvent this stripping. Stripping can be induced by a twist too fast, or by a lube which has failed at the point where the stripping begins. Now, you can force the boolit to stay together and not strip by blowing it down the barrel so fast that the barrel has no time to do the stripping. In other words, the obturation (boolit expansion) is too hard, making the boolit too solid of a mass to strip in the time allocated. This occurs around 3000-3200, and then the boolit might explode anyway because of air friction at around 35-70 yards. A 7 twist is terrible on a 264 boolit, because that mass (diameter) is much harder to get up to rotational speed in comparison to a 224 diameter boolit. This is why Joe can shoot his 22's quite fast with a 7 twist. ... felix

StarMetal
05-10-2005, 11:07 PM
Now we're getting somewhere. The mass is the part the problem with the 6.5's. You know another thing Felix, my AR15 barrel has a chromed lined bore and in my opinion they foul ALOT less. Even with condoms that barrel is a breeze to clean. Another one that is easy to clean is my 7.7 Jap, again another chrome lined barrel. By the way I'm starting to see some match chrome lined barrels and the test are very promising.

Joe

44man
05-10-2005, 11:34 PM
I like the cat thing better! Could a good lube be made from the remains? UMMM, hairy Felix. The hair would act like a brush and clean out the lead at every shot.
I have to wonder if the larger diameter and longer boolits like the .475 and up contribute to leading due to so much lead in contact with the bore. I shoot .476 to .4765 boolits and get a lot of lead with WW metal. It pushes right out with a few patches and there is no sign of any sticking to the steel. I do think WW metal does lead more then a harder or softer alloy for some strange reason. I always add tin and antimony to WW's for hunting with no leading problems but it is expensive, so most of the year I use the free WW's. I notice this in the BPCR also even with boolits .002 over groove diameter. I get no lead with softer alloys even down to pure lead.
Are there any facts to support this idea? Help, Felix!

felix
05-11-2005, 12:24 AM
44man, I am not sure about "facts" but what you are observing is correct enough (for the board) to say these things we are discussing are indeed facts. Consider the rotational forces necessary when shooting your 475 boolits! It would seem to me via your discussion the twist rate is way too much in your pistol(s) for the lead quality you are shooting. Gosh, for a boolit light enough to shoot with comfort would probably only require a 28-30 twist at the very most. I bet your gun has a 20 twist or better, eh? ... felix

Willbird
05-11-2005, 06:50 AM
I was reading in marks Handbook that fluids DO compress, but they treat them as incompressible to make things simpler to explain.

Bill

Bass Ackward
05-11-2005, 08:10 AM
It may be that another contributing factor to leading is friction heat. Now this I have much leass trouble believing, and it may be that when the bullet is driven with enough pressure and velocity, that the lube liquifies as a result of friction. We know that the lube melts, how else would a lube star at the muzzle be formed? We also know that when the lube is not of a quality or quantity (as the case may be) to hang with the bullet to the end of the bore, we get leading. At this point, I am at the limit of my knowledge and experience.

John,

Education is a wonderful thing. So is speculating on why something happens. It is what allows us to plan our next step in what ever process we are involved in. But concentrate more with results and what can be done to improve your results assuming you are not satisfied. Because for everything involved in this hobby, nothing is an absolute. Because we all shoot differently with different objectives in mind.

I remember reading in the Fouling Shot of a guy that shot cast with absolutely NO lube. Got fair groups and no gas cutting and no leading. I believe that velocity was up to or over 1000 fps in a 357 Mag, but I can't be sure now. The article with pictures is still there.

So a lot of lube "theories" went by the way side on that one. You constantly read things like when the bench rest nationals were held in Kansas a few years back and everyone was surprised at record groups with 105 degree temps. Well that just tells me that the temperature was solving an over lubrication condition that they weren't aware that they had.

To the other extreme, I built a 45 caliber rifle bullet design and over lubed it to test a concept. If bullet design is .... suportive, then you have more flexibility to over lube, or use a broader selection of lubes before problems arise. Or stated another way, you have a bullet design with a higher velocity potential.

So that is both sides of the lube spectrum. What is a shooter to do? Everything, every technique you develop is based on how "you" shoot and want "your" loads to perform.

So lube is the barrier we must all deal with in some fashion for better shooting. to

carpetman
05-11-2005, 08:19 AM
Willbird---You read in Mark's Handbook(Is that Ol Jumptrap--if so that explains it)that fluids do compress but they treat them as incompressible to make things easier to explain. Was wondering if he has a section about whether the world is round or flat and if so does he give the name of Columbus's 4th ship? The one that fell off the edge.

StarMetal
05-11-2005, 08:38 AM
Carpetman

With the rapid recent advance in quantum physics, they think they might have discovered that ship in a time warp in outer space. They are concocting a plan to try to retrieve, as it should be in a perfect preservation state.

Joe

wills
05-11-2005, 09:06 AM
Willbird--- does he give the name of Columbus's 4th ship? The one that fell off the edge.

The Fajita ?

Willbird
05-11-2005, 09:32 AM
Marks Handbook is a popular and well respected engineering handbook, and while I do not recall if it gives exactamounts for other fluids it does give an exact amount that water in a 1 mile long section of pipe would compress at a given pressure.

http://www.insidersecretstohydraulics.com/hydraulic-decompression.html

that link there says hydrauliuc fluids compress .4% by volume at 1000PSI...that is a significant amount.

so with what we are talking about it could be very possble that the lube compress's while the bullet is in the plastic state, and that when gas pressure drops off that the fluid is still under pressure because the bullet has been compressed to fit the lube in it's compressed state.

Bill

utk
05-11-2005, 11:34 AM
Read this article by Glen Fryxsell "Lubricating Cast Bullets":

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/lube.htm

StarMetal
05-11-2005, 12:16 PM
utk

I read the article and there's no way I will believe lube, especially hard lube, is melted to a liquid and freezes solid again before it exits the barrel. If it was liquid all the way to the end of the barrel it would get blowed off the bullet when the bullet leaves the barrel and this just doesn't happen. I've found way too many fired rifle bullets in my backstop that still had dang near all the lube they originally started with in their lube groove and I'm taking about a fairly soft lube which was Javelina.

I do however believe the lube serves a function more then lubing. Dan of mountain moulds and I talked about this and we both agree that it does make a seal to seal of any gas leaks.

Good story, but still not scientifically accurate enough for my taste.

Joe

JohnH
05-11-2005, 12:23 PM
Read this article by Glen Fryxsell "Lubricating Cast Bullets":

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/lube.htm

We have come so far in our conersation that we are now posting a link to the article that started this......to borrow a phrase....."We have come full circle" :)

utk, That is the very article I refered to earlier, but not being computer savvy, don't know how to post links. Thanks for the link. I still think it a good article.

I like what FWFL seems to do for me, I've no idea if I'm using to much, too little or don't need any at all. I also like Goofy Lube, and will continue to use it to pan lube a few bullets along the way. I appreciate all the input guys and I've confirmed for myself what many already know, Bullet lube is not bullet lube, but it is like oil, in that generally any is better than none.

old gunner
05-11-2005, 05:29 PM
I have the article in one of My old manuals, well worth reading, I should mention that the NRA test used Dacron fiber for the best results.
Bill