Using dillon 550b questions on oal??

[ABLE]

When using a Dillon 550b Press has anyone experienced different OAL of the bullets???

I get fairly consistent OAL loads for my 9mm when loading 115 gr Hornady XTP bullets (say 7 out of 10) 1.065 but some come out with an OAL of 1.052 these random ones scare me cause I have heard a short OAL will have a higher pressure build up.

Obviously the reason I bought a progressive is because of rapid loading. I know if you want very accurate loads it is best to us a single stage. But helpful advice would be appreciated.

I cleaned out the dies especially the bullet seater and bullet crimper no change. Still inconsistent.

Dillon service says I need to tighten my center bolt in the base of the shell plate cause the base is flexing. Did that and no change. still a lot of inconsistent OAL.

All that is possibly left is the possibility of the base Shell holder plate being inconsistently machined. Has anyone else experienced this problem???????


ABLE IS PUZZLED??????

[frank505]

Take look at your seating plug. Most are made for a spitzer bullet, machine it to a flat and OAL's will be the same. My 550B is twenty years old or older and still makes great ammunition. Check OAL and crimp when the shell plate is full of cases, not one at a time, then reef on them lock nuts!!

[Edubya]

Crimp separately. I fought with the same problem for a long time and when I finally tried to do it in separate steps, it cleared up. At first I simply backed off the crimp die and was only seating and reducing the case neck slightly then I'd back off the seating pin and tighten down the crimp and run all of the cartridges a second time. I have since bought Dillon seating dies for each of my pistol calibers and moved the RCBS crimping die to the fourth stage.
Ew

[garandsrus]

Check to make sure your bullets are consistent. They may be different, resulting in difference OAL's.

How inconsistent are the bullet lengths?

John

[cajun shooter]

+1 on the post by Edubya. I use my 550 for a 4 step loading process. Buy yourself a LEE FCD die and your problems will go away.

[AZ-Stew]

I seat and crimp in a single operation using Lyman dies for all my revolver cartridges. No issues.

I use Dillon dies for autopistol cartridges (9mm, .40 and .45) that taper crimp as a separate operation, and again, no issues.

Do you trim your cases so they're all the same length? Yes, it's a pain, but if you want consistent crimps and OALs, it's a necessity.

Regards,

Stew

[Throckmorton]

I also am a real fan of 4 dies for loading handgun ammo.I have the same press,and have doing it that way for a long time.I"d even do it if using a single stage,I feel the extra step is well worth it.

[Adam10mm]

Are you using the press with full shellplate or just loading one at at time?

If you set your seater die with empty shellplate (and just the case in the seater die station) then try to seat a bullet with the sizing station full, you will have inconsistent OAL beyond the normal pressure anomalies between brass and bullet that you can't control.

To properly set OAL on your 550, run a case in station one sizing and priming, then index to station two. DO NOT ADD ANOTHER CASE TO THE SHELLPLATE. Perform the charge/bell step in station 2 and index. Now your case is sized, primed, and charged with powder. Place an empty case in station one. Raise the ram to start the bullet. Lower the ram but DO NOT SEAT A PRIMER. Just back the case out of the seater die. Turn the seating adjustment screw and continue to raise the ram until your OAL is reached. You basically walk the bullet down deeper until you get your target OAL.

Once you get your OAL, remove the case in station 1. Index the plate to station 4 to crimp. Raise the ram, turn the adjustment stem down until it stops (contacts the bullet). Lower the ram so the round is out of the die, turn the adjustment screw a half turn, and raise the ram again to apply crimp. Lower the ram and measure crimp.

Proper crimp in a cartridge that headspaces off the case mouth, such as the 9mm, is twice the case mouth thickness plus bullet diameter, with a tolerance of .001". A case mouth in 9mm is .010" thick, so twice that is .020" and the .355" bullet diameter brings that total to .375" diameter. You are just removing the bell you put on the case mouth in station 2. You are bringing the mouth back to factory spec.

This is where and how you measure the crimp.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080189.jpg

This is how all my 9mm ammunition is crimped. Blury, but it reads .3755". Tolerance is .3740 to .3760 inches.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080188.jpg

This is why we bell the case mouth. The bullet is sitting on a sized case. If seated like this, it will tear the case mouth and will ruin the brass.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080186.jpg

This is the lineup of operations. L to R Sized and primed, expanded (belled) and charged with powder*, bullet set on top of expanded case, finally seated to OAL and properly crimped to remove bell.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080184.jpg

Closeup difference between sized and expanded.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080185.jpg

*The crimp here is a bit more than needed because I load 9mm on a Dillon 1050 press with auto index and having a large bell on the case allows the bullet to stay on the case while indexing to the next station. I set the bullet on after the powder charging station so it forces me to look into the case to verify correct powder level before seating bullet. This is done in the open station between powder charge and bullet seating.

[mike in co]

Are you using the press with full shellplate or just loading one at at time?

If you set your seater die with empty shellplate (and just the case in the seater die station) then try to seat a bullet with the sizing station full, you will have inconsistent OAL beyond the normal pressure anomalies between brass and bullet that you can't control.

To properly set OAL on your 550, run a case in station one sizing and priming, then index to station two. DO NOT ADD ANOTHER CASE TO THE SHELLPLATE. Perform the charge/bell step in station 2 and index. Now your case is sized, primed, and charged with powder. Place an empty case in station one. Raise the ram to start the bullet. Lower the ram but DO NOT SEAT A PRIMER. Just back the case out of the seater die. Turn the seating adjustment screw and continue to raise the ram until your OAL is reached. You basically walk the bullet down deeper until you get your target OAL.

Once you get your OAL, remove the case in station 1. Index the plate to station 4 to crimp. Raise the ram, turn the adjustment stem down until it stops (contacts the bullet). Lower the ram so the round is out of the die, turn the adjustment screw a half turn, and raise the ram again to apply crimp. Lower the ram and measure crimp.

Proper crimp in a cartridge that headspaces off the case mouth, such as the 9mm, is twice the case mouth thickness plus bullet diameter, with a tolerance of .001". A case mouth in 9mm is .010" thick, so twice that is .020" and the .355" bullet diameter brings that total to .375" diameter. You are just removing the bell you put on the case mouth in station 2. You are bringing the mouth back to factory spec.

This is where and how you measure the crimp.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080189.jpg

This is how all my 9mm ammunition is crimped. Blury, but it reads .3755". Tolerance is .3740 to .3760 inches.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080188.jpg

This is why we bell the case mouth. The bullet is sitting on a sized case. If seated like this, it will tear the case mouth and will ruin the brass.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080186.jpg

This is the lineup of operations. L to R Sized and primed, expanded (belled) and charged with powder*, bullet set on top of expanded case, finally seated to OAL and properly crimped to remove bell.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080184.jpg

Closeup difference between sized and expanded.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080185.jpg

*The crimp here is a bit more than needed because I load 9mm on a Dillon 1050 press with auto index and having a large bell on the case allows the bullet to stay on the case while indexing to the next station. I set the bullet on after the powder charging station so it forces me to look into the case to verify correct powder level before seating bullet. This is done in the open station between powder charge and bullet seating.

way too much bell on your case.

your measuring method is incorrect. you are using the wide flat part of the jaws, and thus not measuring the neck od, but a spot back an 1/8 of an inch or so...so probably way over crimped.
use the thin section of the caliper jaws and measure at the end of the brass.

you should have cases in all 4 positions when setting dies.

measure your bullets and accept the bullet variation as seating variation.
get or make a seater that is close to bulet design.

mike in co

[Adam10mm]

way too much bell on your case.
Which I explained in the bottom of my post and reiterated here in bold:

*The crimp here is a bit more than needed because I load 9mm on a Dillon 1050 press with auto index and having a large bell on the case allows the bullet to stay on the case while indexing to the next station.


your measuring method is incorrect. you are using the wide flat part of the jaws, and thus not measuring the neck od, but a spot back an 1/8 of an inch or so...so probably way over crimped.
use the thin section of the caliper jaws and measure at the end of the brass.
Thanks. I load quite a bit of ammo and know full well how to use a calipers and where to check crimp. If you notice in the picture, the flat part of the blade is also the same as the wider part of the blade, meaning they will give the same reading whether at the blade tip or wide part of the blade. Also just randomly pulled 5 rounds of 9mm from the 1050's catch bin and measured as in the pic and with the blade tip farther up as you say. Every time I measured it, the reading was exactly .3755" on all 5 rounds using both methods. So, no my crimp is just fine, thanks.

[missionary5155]

Good morning & WELCOME ABLE !
I also crimp as a seperate action. It just works better in all the calibers I load and that is a bunch. I no longer load 9mm but I do 40 S&W by the thousand and they all seem to plop out just fine. 45 acp & 41 mag would be the next high quantity pistol versions and by crimping seperate they all seem very consistent as long as I remember to clean out the seater off and on from the buildup of lead-lube particles.
I bought my first 550 in 1987 and it still turns out GREAT ammo. I think I have that one set up in Large Primer mode.

[Lloyd Smale]

one thing ive noticed more with 9mm then about any other round is bullets seated crooked with a progressive press. there small and its easy to get in a fast rythm and not start the bullet in the case straight. this can cause your overall lenght problem and is heck on accuracy. Just being a small amount crooked that your eyes cant even see will effect accuracy.

[Geraldo]

ABLE, do your HP bullets look the same in the short rounds? A long time ago I loaded HP bullets in 9mm and the nose/HP got kind of crushed on some of them. It might be a bullet problem, not OAL.

[ABLE]

Many Thanks Guys, This is such a helpful board. It is reassuring to find others have the similiar situation and have overcome it.

You have all presented several suggestion for me to try. That I will gradually over time. I feel the situation will be solved then on to cranking them out.

I can offer these words of hope to all the individuals that have offered their expertise.

MAY THE SUN BE AT YOU BACK WHEN YOU LOCATE THE DESIRED TARGET
MAY THE WIND BE GENTLE AND FORGIVING
MAY YOU PAUSE WHEN EXCITED FOR THAT DIVINE MOMENT
MAY YOU SQUEEZE THE TRIGGER WITH THE GENTLENESS OF HOLDING A NEWBORN BABY
MAY YOUR BULLET FIND THE SPECIFIC POINT ON THE TARGET YOU AIM AT
MAY YOU SAVOR THE MOMENT ON YOUR JOURNEY OF LIFE AND RECALL IT OFTEN


MANY THANK GUYS FOR THE HELPFUL ADVICE, HOPE I CAN HELP EACH OF YOU IN THE FUTURE

ABLE
IN HIS GRIP

[mike in co]

Thanks. I load quite a bit of ammo and know full well how to use a calipers and where to check crimp. If you notice in the picture, the flat part of the blade is also the same as the wider part of the blade, meaning they will give the same reading whether at the blade tip or wide part of the blade. Also just randomly pulled 5 rounds of 9mm from the 1050's catch bin and measured as in the pic and with the blade tip farther up as you say. Every time I measured it, the reading was exactly .3755" on all 5 rounds using both methods. So, no my crimp is just fine, thanks.

no
the big wide part of the blade is measuring back about 0.100 form the mouth of the case...because it measure the first thing it hits, and with the wide part of the jaws and a tapered case it will not be giving you the dia of the case mouth....look at your pic....the jaws are at the case mouth at the front of the jaw, but the back side of the jaw is 0.10 or so further back...that is what you are measuring in the pic.....not the mouth of the case....

pics don't lie

as far as your excessive belling.....that is why lyman m dies were invented. no need to kill brass by over belling. excessive belling and then crimping the excess work hardens the brass and leads to neck split.

mike in co

[Adam10mm]

no
the big wide part of the blade is measuring back about 0.100 form the mouth of the case...because it measure the first thing it hits, and with the wide part of the jaws and a tapered case it will not be giving you the dia of the case mouth....look at your pic....the jaws are at the case mouth at the front of the jaw, but the back side of the jaw is 0.10 or so further back...that is what you are measuring in the pic.....not the mouth of the case....

pics don't lie
Did you read the part about me measuring with the thin part of the blade on the case mouth and obtaining the same measurement? Guess not.


as far as your excessive belling.....that is why lyman m dies were invented. no need to kill brass by over belling. excessive belling and then crimping the excess work hardens the brass and leads to neck split.

mike in co
Right, and I'm loading on a Dillon 1050 which will not accept the M die into the powder station since it has no charging capability. Also I load the same ammo personally that I sell in my commercial line. I have shot the same brass in excess of 12 times using this exact technique and have yet to have a case mouth split. Thanks for being wrong again.:veryconfu

[mike in co]

Did you read the part about me measuring with the thin part of the blade on the case mouth and obtaining the same measurement? Guess not.


Right, and I'm loading on a Dillon 1050 which will not accept the M die into the powder station since it has no charging capability. Also I load the same ammo personally that I sell in my commercial line. I have shot the same brass in excess of 12 times using this exact technique and have yet to have a case mouth split. Thanks for being wrong again.:veryconfu

maybe you can explain to the rest of us how one gets the same measurement on a TAPERED CASE when the measurements are taken at two different places ? it may be close..but it aint the same.

what is your left hand doing when you pull the handle on the 1050 ?


on my 550's my left hand is holding the bullet straight as the bullet and case feed into the seating die and captures the bullet......never had a need for EXCESSIVE BELLING.

and just for the record, i shot one lot of 1000 pcs of 9x21 brass for about 7 YEARS. 4 TO 6 MATCHES A month, 10 months of the year. the load was aprox 42kpsi. in seven yrs i had 2 split cases. 12 reloads...heck that happened atleast every year on that brass. whats the pressure on your loads ??

[Tanker Guy]

Closeup difference between sized and expanded.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P5080185.jpg



I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds on my 1050, and never, EVER, belled like that. Where on Earth did you get the idea that you needed a mega bell like that? That is seriously over working the brass.

You are doing this as a commercial reloader?????

[GabbyM]

If you watch the Dillon Videos that's how they bell brass.
I don't bell them that much but if it works it works. Never had a problem wearing out the mouth on 9mm brass. Mine wears out at the head dimentions or I just loose them first.

[Adam10mm]

maybe you can explain to the rest of us how one gets the same measurement on a TAPERED CASE when the measurements are taken at two different places ? it may be close..but it aint the same.
PM me your address and I'll send you five dummy rounds to measure for yourself and post the results here.


what is your left hand doing when you pull the handle on the 1050 ?
When the handle is in operation my left hand grabs a bullet from the bullet tray. When the toolhead rises and the casing that just got belled and charged is indexed to station 6, I visually verify the powder charge level and then sit the bullet on top of the case. When the case goes from station 6 (empty) to station 7 (seating), the bullet sitting on top of the charged case prevents powder spillage.

On my 550 I do a similar routine, except charge/bell in station 2, verify the powder level as I prime the case in station 1, then put the bullet on top of case in station 2 and index. This prevents a double charge because the bullet will hit the powder funnel and cause the powder to spill out of the case, not in it. This method means there is zero chance of a squib or a double charge. Similar to the method on the 1050 except the 1050 has auto index (and primes on the downstroke).



on my 550's my left hand is holding the bullet straight as the bullet and case feed into the seating die and captures the bullet......never had a need for EXCESSIVE BELLING.
My 550 uses less belling as I'm manually indexing on that press which is smoother than the auto index on the 1050.


whats the pressure on your loads ??
115gr 32.1K psi
124gr 33.0K psi
147gr 26.9K psi


I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds on my 1050, and never, EVER, belled like that. Where on Earth did you get the idea that you needed a mega bell like that? That is seriously over working the brass.
It's called actual experience. In that actual experience on my particular machine, that amount of bell is necessary to the loading process with the way my particular machine operates. Less belling will cause either the bullet to fall off (causing a stoppage in the rhythm) or powder to be spilled out of the case (causing the shellplate area to be gummed with powder and lock up).


You are doing this as a commercial reloader?????
My company is a licensed ammunition manufacturer (actually an 07/02). Load both new and fired brass. Been in business 3 years loading for law enforcement, competitive shooters, gun shops, and retail customers. I've never had an issue with split necks either from customer feedback nor the handful of competitive shooters I reload their brass a dozen times over using the same techniques. I run the same ammo through submachine guns with mag dumps and beta mag dumps with no issue; same with fluted chamber pistols. I have tested brass life in excess of 15 firings using this amount of belling and have yet to split a case mouth. I sell what I shoot and shoot what I sell. The same loads my company sells are the exact same loads I shoot personally.

[Tanker Guy]

It's called actual experience. In that actual experience on my particular machine, that amount of bell is necessary to the loading process with the way my particular machine operates. Less belling will cause either the bullet to fall off (causing a stoppage in the rhythm) or powder to be spilled out of the case (causing the shellplate area to be gummed with powder and lock up).




My Super 1050 did the exact same thing out of the box. Try shortening the index ball spring a bit and cycle a few rounds through the press. Keep shortening until it stops that violent indexing and you will find that loading on your 1050 is a lot neater and easier without powder spilling out of the case.

You won't need to set your bullet at station 6 and you won't need so much flare either. Give it a try, I guarantee it will stop indexing so violently and gumming up your shell plate. :-)

[mike in co]

My Super 1050 did the exact same thing out of the box. Try shortening the index ball spring a bit and cycle a few rounds through the press. Keep shortening until it stops that violent indexing and you will find that loading on your 1050 is a lot neater and easier without powder spilling out of the case.

You won't need to set your bullet at station 6 and you won't need so much flare either. Give it a try, I guarantee it will stop indexing so violently and gumming up your shell plate. :-)

what he said...and the same for the 550's

i use 2 550 and never put a bullet in a case in sta two....this is the problem with your process....trying to do somthing it was not designed for.

put the bulet in the case at three or 7 on the 1050 leave your hand there as the plate rises to the die.
plain and simple
the press is designed and built by dillon, but set up and run by the operator.....
ya just need to try something different.
you will NEVER have a double charge you can ACCIDENTLY seat a bullet in if the charge is ALWAYS 50% or more of case volume.
there is more than one way to skin a cat....yours does that but there are better ways.
mike in co

[Edubya]

Blind faith in one's own competence is found solely among the incompetent.

EW

[jsizemore]

Able,
A couple of other considerations.
If you are using range pickup brass or different lots or headstamps, they can also cause varying seating depths regardless of single or progressive. Try sorting your brass by headstamp and see if you notice a difference.
If your concerned about excessive pressure, back off on your powder charge weight a little and/or go to a powder that is less sensitive to small variations in charge weight.
Good Luck