Need 200 & 300 Yd. Match Loads for 30-06/7.5x55

[35 Whelen]

My buddies and I are planning a trip to OKC to compete in an X-Course High Power match. (It'll be my first) I want to use my K-31. My thoughts are to use cast at 200 and 300 yd. then switch to jacketed for 600 yd. prone slow.
Anyone have any guidance? I figure something up in the 1800-2000 fps range would suffice. I'd like to use 2400, but I also have plenty of IMR4198, SR4759 and surplus 4895 as well as almost all the IMR powders ever made. My current load in the K-31 uses the NOE K31-180 bullet over 14.0 grs. of AA#7. It's a really accurate load, but I estimate the velocity to be only in the 1400 fps range.
I have set up a 600 yd. gong here at the house and tried my hand at it with cast loads with one of my 03A3's that's set up with a Lyman 48 rear and a Lyman 17 front. I fired a 314299 at a measured 1865 fps. Elevation is no big deal, but there was a slight breeze from about 90° and I found that a minute change in wind velocity...even as little as 5 mph... made a HUGE difference at the 600 yd. target, easily blowing a bullet completely off the target once the rifle had been sighted in. I tried a the Hornady 150 gr. FMJBT at somewhere around 2800 fps and it shot sufficiently well at 600.
Thanks,
35W

[NickSS]

At 200 and 300 yards you can try your 160 gr load that you currenly have to see how it does in your K 31. Unless you have target sights with windage and elevation on your K 31 do not expect to do well as the elevation adjustments and lack of windage will not prove to be a good target rifle as the object is to hit the X ring every time (Shoot for Xs and take what you get) Your 03A3 is a much better rifle for the high power game as I started with one of them in the late 60s. You can try loads that shoot well the one you used at 600 yards will work quite nicely at 200 and 300 yards. You need to find what your sight settings are for those ranges. Wind can make some difference at 200 yards but it is usually Minimal. In fact I shot in a club silhouette match yesterday with my 30-30 rifle at 200 yards and did not have to make a windage correction at all with a shifting 5 mph breeze. At 600 yards the wind changes start to be noticeable in a hurry. In higy power I have had bullets shift from a X to a 5 due to a wind change I did not notice so you need a spotting scope and learn how to read the wind. A good load for your 06 is a 168gr spitzer boat tail bullet over a full charge of something like 4350. and expect to have to change windage during the match. If you use cast bullets at 600 yards be prepared to double or triple a given wind correction as compared to jacketed bullets as they are going slower and have a poorer ballistic coefficient. I quit HP shooting in the early 90s and took up BPCR shooting instead. Beleve me you can hit the 600 yard target with a bullet going at 1050 at the muzzle all it takes is a little more elevation and of course windage correlation.

[35 Whelen]

Unless you have target sights with windage and elevation on your K 31 do not expect to do well as the elevation adjustments and lack of windage will not prove to be a good target rifle as the object is to hit the X ring every time (Shoot for Xs and take what you get)

My K31 has a globe front and a Redfield Palma rear, so plenty of adjustment. My 600 yd. target is patterned after a 600 yd. repair center so it's 36" in diameter. I welded scoring rings on it that go from X to 7, so that's why such a slight change in wind can blow a slow bullet completely off the target.
Thanks for the advice.
35W

[excess650]

My best load for the 7.5x55 so far is the 175gr Saeco #315 tapered bullet in reformed WW 284Win cases, F210 primers, and 22gr AA5744.

I've shot this all the way to 500m at silhouettes, and the coarse sights seemed to be the limiting factor. It didn't seem to be a problem at all to stay on 385m turkeys, and all 500m rams hit went down.

I really need to get a receiver sight mounted on this rifle.

[madsenshooter]

44.4gr of H4350 gave me 2155fps with the NOE boolit. Low pressure, didn't even seal the case. Good group, 4 touching, 1 out of the group that was caused by the nose shaving. I can't seat mine out like you can in your rifle.

[Bob S]

Since I can't get the 311284 (or the 311299) to chamber in any of my K31's, my "go-to" .30 cal SR load from 40+ years ago won't work for the K31. :sad: Pity, because it was a Master-class load.

I recommend the Lyman/Ideal 311334, like the 311332, but heavier. Mine cast about 194 grains with my old wheelweights, and the "undersize" borerider on the old mould (.298") is perfect for the 7.5 x 55. This is still a work in progress, so I can't give you a "proven" load yet, but suitable charges of 4895 or 4831 to give 1900~2000 fps with 10-ring grouping is what you need. The SR ten ring is about 6", so that shouldn't be too hard ... 2 MOA at 300 yards, 3 MOA at 200 yards.

Watch the wind and hold hard ... Best of luck!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[zomby woof]

I don't think you're going to get 2000 fps out of 2400. I get 2150 fps with 34 grains of 4895 out of my 03A3 with a LEE 180.

[35 Whelen]

Since I can't get the 311284 (or the 311299) to chamber in any of my K31's, my "go-to" .30 cal SR load from 40+ years ago won't work for the K31. :sad: Pity, because it was a Master-class load.

I recommend the Lyman/Ideal 311334, like the 311332, but heavier. Mine cast about 194 grains with my old wheelweights, and the "undersize" borerider on the old mould (.298") is perfect for the 7.5 x 55. This is still a work in progress, so I can't give you a "proven" load yet, but suitable charges of 4895 or 4831 to give 1900~2000 fps with 10-ring grouping is what you need. The SR ten ring is about 6", so that shouldn't be too hard ... 2 MOA at 300 yards, 3 MOA at 200 yards.

Watch the wind and hold hard ... Best of luck!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Bob,
I was unclear in the OP, but I'll be using the NOE K31 bullets which weighs about 190 grs. I wasn't really looking for proven loads, just loads that give round 2000 with a 190-200 gr. bullet in the '06. Since the 7.5x55 and the '06 are so similar in case capacity, I figured on going from there.
I knew you'd shot alot of cast (311291, right?)in the '60's, but I couldn't remember the load/loads you'd used. I'd refer to my 47th Ed. of the Lyman manual, but it's presently loaned out. I have an older, '70's vintage Lyman cast manual, and they list some 2000-2100 fps loads, but only with 2400.


I don't think you're going to get 2000 fps out of 2400. I get 2150 fps with 34 grains of 4895 out of my 03A3 with a LEE 180.

The older Lyman manual I mentioned lists loads in the 2000 fps range, using 2400 at pressures in the 30K range. Your load with 4895 is something along the lines of what I was looking for.

Thanks,
Greg

[FAsmus]

35 Whelen;

The other gentlemen have identified the critical problems with shooting a K31 over the High-Power course of fire ~ namely the need for something that shoots nearly as hard as a jacketed load and for sights that may be adjusted for windage and finer control of elevation than the issue sight provides.

I have a K31 that gives me good performance on out to 800 yards, shooting the RCBS 30-165-SIL over 30 grains Varget. It isn't exactly like a jacketed load but I enjoy it for consistent accuracy and for learning all I can about wind drift!

I didn't have the bucks or inclination for an Olympic rear sight so I modified the issue sight by cutting it off and welding on a piece I cut off from a Lyman receiver sight windage-adjustable portion and then drilling a 4-40 hole to elevate the whole thing with a cap-screw instead of using the course notches provided on the issue sight.

It even looks pretty good.

Good evening,
Forrest

[35 Whelen]

The other gentlemen have identified the critical problems with shooting a K31 over the High-Power course of fire ~ namely the need for something that shoots nearly as hard as a jacketed load and for sights that may be adjusted for windage and finer control of elevation than the issue sight provides.

You mean a sight something like this?:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010112.jpg
:mrgreen:

As stated in the OP, I'll be using jacketed for the 600 yd. portion. I do appreciate your suggestion of Varget. I have a dab left and I may try it.

35W

[coyotebait]

Forrest
I for one would like to see pictures of your modified sight.
coyotebait

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I'm hurting for the capability of taking and posting pictures .. I don't have a digital camera.

So, in your imagination remove the leaf issue sight from its position on the rifle, cut off the rear portion complete with the notch flush with the "zero" of the issue numbers.

Take a Lyman 66 or other equivalent old unused receiver sight from your box of pieces and parts and cut off the windage portion of the sight staff. Mate the two pieces together as closely as possible, making sure the centers of the two sights match up as closely as you can and take to a skilled TIG welder and have him weld them together. (Be sure to remove the movable parts from the Receiver sight before welding to insure their safety from heat related problems).

This will provide you with windage enough for all reasonable shooting with the plus of being provided with a peep aperture to look through.

For elevation I merely took a 4/40 drill & tap set and drilled & tapped two holes on either side of the issue sight staff. This required annealing the staff because its too hard to machine as issued from the Swiss armorers - just heat it to dull red and allow to air cool.

I use two holes because in some instances of fair winds the rear sight is moved over far enough that one or the other of the elevation screws will obscure the visual path through the peep because the sight is moved over far enough that the line-of-sight is blocked by the elevation screw - requiring it to be moved to the other side of the sight so that you can see through the peep.

I used "White-Out" to cover the top of the issue sight's rear portion. Then I marked the white with a pen, providing 3-minute graduations for windage that reads out on the old Lyman windage center mark.

I use 4/40 cap screws to control elevation. These are long enough (3/4 inch) to push the old issue sight leaf quite high. For setting the sight for different elevations I have not come up with anything better than just plain measuring the height of the sight with a machinist's scale and recording elevation on a sight sheet. Its a bit rough but once you're close, the fine adjustments are easy, precise and repeatable.

On the firing line its a little unusual to have a steel scale and a allen wrench on hand to adjust your sights, but it works just fine.


Good evening,
Forrest

[Bob S]

The original patent model.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Finesightadjuster2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Finesightadjuster1.jpg

The screw is in this case a No. 8 x 36 socket head set screw. The length is tuned so it is just out of the line of sight at minimum elevation. Has more than enough range of adjustment to get centered at 600 yards with service-equivalent loads. Never tried it further than that, but there was still some height adjustment left.

I used a small front sight adjuster on the front for windage.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Frontsightadjuster.jpg

With some training, I could operate the front sight adjuster with my right hand only, so I could remain in position and in the sling. Not as convenient as twiddling knobs on a Redfield, but it was effective. And inexpensive.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[johnly]

I've shot cast bullets at a HP match, and one problem at 200 yd. SF OH is the bullets are sub-sonic and the pullers are waiting for the "crack" before they pull the target. Back then I was shooting a 1/12 twist 308 with 20 gr. of 4320 and a 311291 cast from linotype. It would shoot close to MOA at 100 yards and I didn't feel like I was giving up much at 200 yards, unless the wind was blowing.

John

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Yes, with Bob S coming on with his pictures I freely admit to using his ideas as inspiration for my own modification of the Swiss sights.

I give credit where it is due; Thanks Bob!

Good morning,
Forrest

[koehn,jim]

I have always heard and found that the barrel has to be cleaned heavily between brass and lead or accuracy is degraded in both, have I mis-understood?

[felix]

Yes, if the copper is unequally distributed throughout the barrel. This is most likely the situation. Rarely would you have an equal distribution. So, shoot the gun with a clean barrel with or without copper. If it shoots good, then you will not have to clean the barrel further. Shooting high antimony boolits will take the copper out uniformly when fitted well to the barrel/leadin/throat. ... felix

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

Felix is right as far as removing metallic fouling - it just doesn't belong in a CB barrel.

However, I would expand upon his mentioning of "shooting high-antimony bullets will take out copper uniformly when fitted well to the barrel/lead-in/throat."

I for one do not spend any time cleaning out old jacketed fouling when I get a "new" rifle and convert it to the shooting of cast bullets only ~ I simply load up properly sized bullets and go shooting.

It typically takes only 40 to 60 rounds to completely remove the copper fouling and you can the fun of shooting in the meantime.

Good afternoon,
Forrest