Clueless PP newbie with 7.62x54R

[mosinman]

Hi everyone, this newb has been following this forum for last few days, it has me pumped to try this PPing thing :D!

First, the rifle: it's a refurbed Mosin 91/30. Thoroughly scrubbed the bore (w/hot water, Sweet's, foam, brushes, EBC, rubbing/polishing compounds, etc.). End result is a .3129" groove dia., fairly bright bore with strong rifling and light salt & pepper pitting throughout on both grooves and lands, hoping that PP bullets will improve bore condition.

I'd like to keep this project within a reasonably tight budget. Have no rifle rifle moulds at present, would prefer to use Lee if possible.

Would like to cook up a 1400-1500 fps informal target load, also a 1600-1800 fps 100yd/m whitetail deer load using alloy no harder than wheelweights.

Eagerly awaiting comments and suggestions from you PP veterans so I'll have a place to start, and thanks in advance :D!

mosinman

[303Guy]

Welcome aboard, mosinman. It's good to have you with us. You'll have noticed the fun we have when new folks get started and achieve positive results. And being a mosin ...... well, it's as curious as a Lee Enfield.

Since you have cleaned the bore and it has well defined rifling and is 'salt and pepper' textured - which I believe is a good thing - you are good to go. docone31 and others tutored me. I tried all the stuff that is known not to work just for fun - and they don't work, mostly.

Your first step should be slugging your rifle's throat. You do have some lattitude with boolit diameter as papers come in different thickness and you can use three wraps of thinner paper to get the best throat fit. Chances are your rifle's throat and breach end bore will be somewhat larger than muzzle end due to wear which is a good thing too. With luck you will be able to seat patched boolits without the need to size the case necks. At worst you will need very minimal sizing which is harder to do since you need custom dies. Do you know someone with a lathe who can make you one? Anyway, I have fired grossly oversized patched boolits down my rifle bores without any ill effect.

Something I found with two of my recent aquisitions is that a light rusting in the bore caused patch failure. Smooting out the 'sand paper' bore was easy to do and now the patches survive to the muzzle. (You've already done that step).

Good luck and keep us informed all the way!:drinks:

[DIRT Farmer]

mosinman, welcome to the madness. These nuts have got me hooked. I started with a sporster Lee Enfield 2 grove that would not shoot a cast bullet, or for that matter any bullet. I have advanced so far in the last two weeks ( my first suscessful load) I now can keep every bullet on the berm, which is an improvement. Well some better than that. I still get some patch failure, which shows up as a streak of lead on one side of the barrel, no more than 2 inches from the muzzle.

The fun (madness) is the endless possibilitys. My first suscful PP was with a goverment form letter, don't know if it was the qulity of the paper or the BS printed on it.

[rhbrink]

Welcome mosinman, hope that you have done your homework. This is a genuine ringtailed humdinger of a project you are about to embark on. Much to learn but it certainly is worth the effort. Probably the most imortant point that I missed is to have a nose ride bullet mold with the nose1 to 2 thousands larger that the bore, the Lee C312-185-1R is the mold that you want I think.
I'm pretty much in the same class as Dirt Farmer just now starting to make things work. Pay attention to .303Guy and docnoe31 as they have it figured out. But even they don't agree all the time so you have to start and sort out what will work for you.
Good luck and have fun!
Richard
Missourians for Mosins

[docone31]

Ok,
With the Lee 303B mold, the one rhbrink indicated, cast useing wheel weight with a little zinc mixed in. Water drop. Coat with dish soap, and size to .308. Rinse with hot water.
Wrap with notebook paper, two wraps. Cut against the grain, across the sheet rather than with the sheet, 1 3/8". Cut the ends 45* opposing each other.
With the wrap soaking wet, lay it in a cigarette roller, lay the casting on the wrap, and wrap it up. Roll the roller a few times past completion to squeegee the water out. Twist the tail and set it in a cartridge tray, tail up. Let dry completely.
When dry, size it to .314. Smear some auto wax, or JPW on it, sparingly. All you want to do is to provide less resistance going through. Cut tail before sizeing. I like to leave at least 3/8" tail to buffer the sizeing with.
Load like a jacketed, and use minimum load data for jacketed of that weight.
That is what I do for my enfields, and it sounds like your Mosin is pretty close to that. If the groups, after firing enough to clean the bore, still are large, you might consider opening up the sizeing die. I use the Lee push thru dies for paper patching.
Enjoy.

[303Guy]

The cig roller works! Like all things it takes a little practice. There is something in that rolling it to squeeze the water out. It also irons the two laps into each other forming a bond and if you use thicker, softer paper like printer paper, it also sized it down some. A 45° edge angle is as good as it gets (I don't use it but only because I like to dry wrap by finger - much harder to do - and a 30° angle helps a little). So, I'm with docone31. Oh yes, the 45° angle also allows for more accurate patch alignment and narrow edge gap. Several advantages.

docone31, suggests hardening with zinc. That I haven't tried (didn't have any or I would have). I am wanting a tough, ductile and maleable alloy for hunting so I might try some copper - not so easy though. Not relevent right now anyway.:coffee:

[mosinman]

Big thanks to all for the welcome, it's great to be among kindred spirits :D !

303Guy, the 303 cartridge will always have a warm place in my heart, it's what started my handloading hobby when I was a teenager (long ago)!
Is the Mosin throat a constant dia. from front to back? Was thinking of using a swaged .314 handgun bullet to measure the throat, would squeeze it in a vise just enough to bump up the dia. slightly, then drive it into the throat with a dowel from the breech, would that work?

DIRT Farmer, my 303 was a SMLE "semi-sporter", very common in the 60s. The importer would toss the front and top handguard, then sandblast and shellac the remaining wood. Still see a lot of 'em at gun shows and pawn shops.
As for your success PPing with the govt. form letter, I'd bet it was the quality of the paper that did it. Nothing but the best for us taxpayers...paid for with taxpayer money, of course :-( ! BTW, is it November yet? :-D

rhbrink, I need to go over your posts again, lotsa good info there. Had been mulling over that Lee 303 mould you mentioned and your experiences with it confirm that it would be a good choice to start with.

docone31, no zinc or water drop for me, want hardness no greater than WW or Lyman No. 2.
Do you leave the auto wax on or wipe it off before you run it into the sizing die?
So far, have Lee C312-185-1R and a butt roller on my shopping list - anyone think of anything else I need to pick up?

Thanks for all the helpful advice :D !

mosinman

[DIRT Farmer]

Evidently I'm not bright enough to get a roller to work. I tried in collage, and it was tobacco, us in collage in the 60s guys have to note that, and ended up rolling smokes by hand. When I tried PP the same system worked. For wet patch, I roll dry, dampen with rolling over a damp sponge and roll dry on the counter top with the edge of my hand. I apply wax with my fingers, and size the wax damp. I have no clue if this is right, but I get tight shiny patches. So far my best results have been with dry patch, waxed. In the 303 Savage, I do not have a sizer any where near the throat dia. so I have been shooting as wraped. Had some intersting results in my 03-A3 today sized to .309. At some point I will get the short Ruski out and play with it. At least I have the right sizers and bullet dia. Trouble was it shot so darn well with the 314-299 there was no hard motivation lke the 2 grouve 303

[303Guy]

I wonder what the detailed difference between wet wrapping and dry wrapping is? And what difference does wrapping dry then wetting make? I wonder whether rolling the wet patch dry on the counter top (or in a cig roller) makes a difference? I used to make the ends meet by rolling on a hard surface with the edge of my hand or finger. My shaped patches make that unnecessary but the down side is it's too hard to align a curved edge in the cig roller, wet or dry.

One day when we have our acts together we should have an informal competion between ourselves to see who can get which method to work best.:Fire:

[rhbrink]

I just mentioned the Lee mold cause you wanted to start with a Lee if possible, it's too small for my rifle. I've had the best luck with the Saco 315 the front band measures .304. My bore and groove measure about .303 X .3155 you might try to get a good measurement on the bore size as this is important for good accuracy.

Throat? I don't think the .314 bullet swedged down is going to be big enough. I can just tell you what mine is, starts right at the end of the case mouth at .340 tapers quickly to .316 more or less seems have some uneven wear. Only about .150 long and near as I can measure gives me about a 5* angle per side thats steep all this before fire lapping don't know what this looks like now, its works so good enough.

Can you measure the inside of a fired case that will give you a better idea to see how much patch you really need. And I would try to make a chamber cast if at all possible.

I would also make you boolits as hard as possible, just to get you shooting after you make all this work then you can start to work on a softer boolit for huntng use. Thats about where I'm at now when I first started this paperpatch thing I knew that I was dealing with a large, pitted bore with a nasty throat. Thought that I could just take any hard cast boolit wrap some paper around it stuff it in a case and shoot and everything would be great. Boy was I ever wrong about 10' groups at 100 yards that is when they hit something, some I have no idea where they went. Kind off shook my confidence for sure thought that I knew something, found out that I did'nt know anything about this stuff real quick.

Now I'm getting nice round 2" groups at 50 yards not anything as great as some people post but still learning and still a work in progress. I'll tighten her up as much as possible and then try to make some hunting boolits.

Richard
Missourians for Mosins

[DIRT Farmer]

rhbrink good to know I wasn't the only one who had to sneak up on the berm to find where I was hitting. If I would had more brush in the area the berm would have gotten biger.

Just wondering, can you buy M die stems in other sizes? I would like to try using some neck tension, but the old set of 303 dies will hold a 308 bullet tight. I tear some patches when I try to seat neck sized cases.

303 guy do I rember you trying a single wrap on the nose? I will go +1 on a match, problem I would like to meet after for a beer or four

[303Guy]

I will go +1 on a match, problem I would like to meet after for a beer or four Mmmm ..... I didn't think of that!:mrgreen: We could have a beer by proxy.:drinks:
We could post this one to the winner. http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/webowdown2u.gif WINNER :drinks:


I tear some patches when I try to seat neck sized cases.I had that problem too. I made up a neck sizer and expander with mouth bell to solve that one. Seating should hardly expand the neck at all.

[docone31]

Nah, you guys ain't the only ones!
That is what I meant when I said I got 1 min. of berm. I mean, the safest spot was on the target frame when I fired my first patches. It took me about 50rds of wrapping and sizeing to get to where I really like it. I almost junked the whole idea.
I tried everything you guys have.
I know about my .30s, and my SMLE, affectionately referred to by me as my Smelly. After that, I have no idea, nor experience.
However,
Once I got my Smelly sizeing dialed in, the .30s fell into place. There is a ratio between sizeing the prime casting, and the final sizeing. My best results also came from loading the loads like jacketed loads. Same OAL, same powder charges. I tried to fit the throat, estimate jump, transition, and heavy weights. Just used up powder.
Sounds like you are getting close. Leading from the original firing is going to hamper results, the condition of the bore, which is improving with each shot, undersized or not.
Hang in there. I had people looking at me at the range, with these paper wrapped castings loaded into brass, waiting to miss the target by a vast distance. Much laughter, lots of folks said they did not want to compete with me on wrapping. I even had some benchresters next to me one day. They just stared and didn't mingle.
However, today, I can predict exactly where they hit. At 200yds I can walk a bowling pin up the berm, flipping it with each shot. I can hit it on the neck and it flips up the berm. Can't see confetti with a scope though. Others can see it.
Hang in there, it will be worth it.

[DIRT Farmer]

I always dreamed of seeing your neighborhood. I have heard the hunting is fantastic and the decision on fishing is do I want great salt water or freash water fishing. And I am always open to trying new beers. The problem is I found out my new retirment plan, work till I die. So I have become cheeoer than I was, and figure recycling goverment forms beats buying gas checks.

[mosinman]

Okay, have established the dims. on the Mosin:

Bore (lands) dia. - .302
Groove dia. - .313
Throat dia. - .316

Went rummaging thru my old American Rifleman stash and found a 1972 article about smokeless PPing by Col. Harrison, this was the beginning of his research into this then-new area.

He experimented with 30-06 and 308 Win rifles and was pushing non-GC, 15 BHN, PP conventional (two-dia.) bullets into the 1500-2000 fps range.

He suggested for conventional .309 bullets the following:

Patch paper of .002 thickness.
Bullets seated no deeper than to base of neck.
Bullets patched to just a little over the front driving band.
Patched unseated bullets hand-lubed with 50/50 Motor Mica/lithium grease.
Powders as fast as 2400 could be used for the lighter loads.

I've noticed you guys load pretty close to factory ballistics, and the info above deals more with the reduced loads that I'm seeking. Seems like the basics are a little different, thought this may be a better starting place for the loads I'm after :smile:.

Was wondering...since this info is so old, does anyone see any of these recommendations to be obsolete and better served with materials/methods that are commonly used in the PP world of today?

Quick ? for docone31...I admit I'm kinda "old school", but I clearly recall reading that zinc was considered a contaminant that ruins the casting qualities of good boolit metal. Obviously you know something about using zinc to good advantage and am hoping that you might explain, please? Thanks in advance :smile:.

mosinman

[303Guy]

mosinman, on the use of 2400 and patched for lighter loads, I have done this. I forget the motivation - maybe it was muzzle blast in a shorter barreled gun with no suppressor. Anyway, I used my 'test tube' to develop a load that would adequately disintegrate the patch. When I took that load into the fiels I was pl;eased with the accuracy. I shot two turkey with it! The load won't apply to your mosin as it has a larger case but the principle would apply. Simply put, the load needed sufficient pressure to fully obturate the boolit (meaning giving it sufficient latteral pressure against the patch in the bore). I did use polyester filler to hold the powder against the primer. It was a nice load to shoot with in my light carbine. It had a distinctive supersonic crack like that of a 22RF. The boolit was a 208 grainer. Now I'm experimenting with 4350 and filler to get the same results.

[docone31]

I have found zinc is ok for paper patching. I also use it with my pistols also.
You have to stir the alloy. I have found, sizing is less. Zinc casts smaller to an extant.
I have found, you can add zinc to lead to a point, or lead to zinc to more of a percentage.
If zinc is not stirred completely, it develops globe in the casting. They mold ok, but you can see the zinc vs the lead.
You have to run the pot hotter. I use a bottom pout, and useing zinc, I have to run it at full tilt, or the nozzle slows down.
It makes an harder, lighter casting. Balance could be an issue. If you have zinc unmixed in the nose, you could get half the casting zinc, and one half lead. RPM would produce an imbalance.
Play around with it. See what you get. I have gotten good results with zinc and paper.
I have been doing it for a while now.

[303Guy]

Just looked up my 4227 load. It was 18gr at 45% load density under a 208gr patced boolit. That's with a soft alloy perhaps comparablr to air cooled WW. I would expect a little more powder at a little lower load density for the mosin case?

Hope that helps

[6.5 mike]

mosinman, hi & welcome. Col. Harrison's load of 16 gr 2400 shoots very well in my m/91 remington with the lee 185 gr boolit. Find a boolit that matches your barrel, wrap if needed, size to what you need, load & shoot. I use a lee 160 gr tl boolit for my m91/30 as I need a larger nose to fit the throat on this one.
His other load, 13 gr red dot, also works, both are designed for mild shooting. I 'm useing this in a 03A3 with a lee 200 gr wraped up to fill the throat, & yes the paper does come off. Even though Harrison's info is old it still works very well in old milsurps with the odd bores that seem to go along with them.

[mosinman]

docone31, re your zinc/lead alloy mix - WOW :shock:, I admire your patience, my hat is off to you! That's way too much hassle for a lazy dude like me :D, but I wish you the best of continued success with that method.
FWIW, have you tried "air" drop, size, heat treat, patch & lube?

303Guy, thanks for your input on your light loads. 4227 and 2400 seem to be two of the best powders for that range, 2400 might have a slight edge because it's not position-sensitive (no case fillers req'd.) and meters well (at least thru the Lee Auto Disk measure, anyway :).

6.5 mike, thanks for the welcome. Good to know that the loads of both Col. Harrison AND Ed Harris will work well for PP :). Particularly want to try Ed's "The Load" with the Red Dot or similar burning rate, might be the best place to start with the loads I'm after.