Colt Police Positive.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I found one of these with a 4" Bbl in a shop the other day. Old and bold with a lot of the blue worn off, but still locked up ok. I quiet liked it, I have always fancied one but never seen one apart from my mate's old 32 PoPo. I am surprised how slim and small they are. No excess fat or metal here!

Would this stand up to a fair bit of target only loads? I don't buy them to look at them, but treat them with respect regarding loads, etc.

I must get the serial no and find out how old it is. Mick.

[gregg]

You did buy it right? What cal.? tell us more.
How hard is it for you to buy a handgun?

[Swagerman]

I have had one for many years, its a .38 S&W (not special).

Had to replace the hand, but it locks up tight as Dicks Hat Band and very accurate little shooter.

Finish is about gone on one side from being in a holster no doubt. Roll marking pretty faded, but on the back strap it has: Am Rwy Ex.

The bore is excellent too...good shooter.

This was probably a clerks gun that worked in an office back in the 20s or 30s.

Jim


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/brightendcropped.jpg

[Four Fingers of Death]

I thought that it was a 38Special, but I might be wrong, given the lightness of the piece.either way it would be ok, but Special would be a lot easier, I have 3000 once fired +P+ cases and a progressive press set up for the Special. I have about 40 38S&W cases and a handful of loaded rounds and that's it, no dies. I will have to get on the phone tomorrow and check it out. Mick.

[Char-Gar]

The Colt Police Positive was made on the "D" frame, as were the Detective Specials, Agents, Bankers and a few others. It is indeed chambered for the 38 S&W. They did make this revolvers in 38 Special, but it is named the Police Positive Special and has a slightly longer cylinder to handle the "Special" round.

They are good sturdy sixguns and will take use well.

[Swagerman]

4fingermick, whatever you do don't shoot +P reloads in an antique like mine.

The cylinder walls are extremely thin and I doubt the metalurgy is of modern strength.

Jim

[9.3X62AL]

Mick--

Chargar's info is spot-on. If it's in 38 S&W, it will NOT support the higher-end service loads used by the British Empire in their Webley/Enfield/S&W service revolvers. The Colt PP was regulated for the 145 grain/700 FPS commercial intensity "factory load". These revolvers are not as weak as some of the less expensive top-breaks, and will last forever with loads of this more moderate nature. I have a deep fondness for the D-frame Colts, and the Detective Special was likely the best 38 snubby ever made--my opinion here. The D-Colts are enough bigger than the J-frame S&W's to fit my big paws, and to offer another shot in the cylinder of their 38 caliber variants. Perfect. And--wait 'til you try the double-action trigger on that masterpiece......SUPERB.

You likely know this already, but here goes anyway--the 38 S&W is NOT a shorter/earlier version of the 38 Special. The 38 S&W case diameter is ~.386"-.387", while the Special runs about .379". More importantly, the nominal boolit diameter runs about .361", and that is just a guideline--my Webley-Enfield and my S&W Victory Model both have .363" throats.

I have used 9mm Makarov carbide sizer die and expander assembly successfully with my 38 S&W rounds, and the seater die from the RCBS Cowboy Die Set to seat and roll-crimp the loads. The RCBS Cowboy set is OK if you don't object to case-lubing straightwall pistol cases, but the expander stem was from a 38 Special set--the expander portion was too long, it bottomed out on the web of the case before the flaring shoulder could contact the case mouth, and was too small (.355"). I should talk with RCBS about swapping this, but since I had tools on hand that would work, I put it off.

[StarMetal]

From the way I see it, all this confusion is because Smith didn't name their cartridges properly. Since the 38 S&W came along before the 38 Special, Smith shouldn't have just tacked the name Special on the 38 Special, since it gets called the 38 S&W so much. Maybe they should have called the darn thing the Smith & Wesson 357 Special or something, after all it's not a 38 to begin with. Maybe even the 35 Special, that ways when they come along with the 357 Mag there would be no confusion between it and the 357 Special if they named the 38 Special that.

Joe

[floodgate]

Joe:

When it was first introduced in 1899-1902 or so, as an upgrade to the .38 Long Colt service round, it was known as the ".38 S&W Military" for use in the new "Military and Police" revolver. Some older tong tools are marked ".38 S&W M." But this still causes confusion, because many people think these are for the .38 British version of the older .38 S&W with the 200-gr. "manstopper" bullet. I had to dig out an example of the tool, check case lengths relative to the crimping chamber, and assure myself that the larger-diameter .38 S&W cases wouldn't fit into the priming recess, to verify this for myself, and some tool collectors are still not convinced!

But if cartridge nomenclature were logical, that'd be one less topic to dazzle our "newbies" with, wouldn't it?

Doug

[StarMetal]

Doug,

Yessir, you are correct.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

LOGICAL cartridge/caliber nomenclature? Next thing, we'll be talking Maserati camper shells.

After a bit of mechanical adventure with Marie's Jeep, I managed to have a pretty therapeutic rat hunt this afternoon. 2 ground squirrels and 1 crow later, I headed back to the homestead. Those 55 grain Ballistic Tips sort out vermin right smartly and comprehensively. Very satisfying.

Mick, I hope you grab that Colt. I surely would.

[Buckshot]

.............If it IS the 38 S&W, take a look down the list. Quite a bit of 38 S&W info. I sure enjoy mine. Nothing 'Magnum' about them at all, just a good old workaday cartridge that'll roll a can with the best of'em.

..............Buckshot

[Bent Ramrod]

If it's a Colt, it should be called the ".38 Colt New Police" cartridge. Can't go muddying-up the brand loyalties by confusing the nomenclature:) .

I once owned a Police Positive Special in .32-20 and presently have a Pocket Positive in .32 Colt. Very nicely made (the "positive" hammer block is very well thought out) but a little light for anything but standard loadings.

Floodgate, thanks for the info on the .38 S&W "M" designation. I have one of those loading tools so marked and couldn't figure out why anyone would bother with a "Midrange" loading of such a cartridge.

[floodgate]

If it's a Colt, it should be called the ".38 Colt New Police" cartridge. Can't go muddying-up the brand loyalties by confusing the nomenclature:) .

I once owned a Police Positive Special in .32-20 and presently have a Pocket Positive in .32 Colt. Very nicely made (the "positive" hammer block is very well thought out) but a little light for anything but standard loadings.

Floodgate, thanks for the info on the .38 S&W "M" designation. I have one of those loading tools so marked and couldn't figure out why anyone would bother with a "Midrange" loading of such a cartridge.

Dave:

Yeah, I remembered - just after I kicked off my post - that the Colt version was the "New Police", also with a blunter-nosed bullet like the Colt "Special"; should have edited it to include that. There was also the ".32 Colt New Police" variant of the .32 S&W LONG.

Also glad to have helped clarify the ".38 S&W M" issue; this had been a hotly-discussed item on another Board, so I figured a bit of checking both the background literature and the actual hardware was in order. One purveyor still lists that tool as for the .38 S&W, though I have called him on it two or three times. Guess I'll make my next tool purchase from him contingent on his correcting his ad.

Doug

[Four Fingers of Death]

The gun dealer was insisting it was a 38 Special over the phone, he said he bought two of them after a security company gave up with the hassles of getting the Police to license them. I finally managed to get back to the store and he pulled one out and dropped a 38Special in the chamber, stuck out to billyo! They are old and bold and cheap (probably be able to get the price right down if I yake both and also the fact that they are in the older cartridge. They take a bigger boolit don't they?

[jobo12]

Mick,
I currently own three or four pistols in this caliber, and reload regularly for 'em. If you can pick them up on a deal, you may find you enjoy them a lot.
Yes, they do take a slightly larger bullet (just enough that standard .38 slugs are woefully inaccurate). But I have had good success with using HBWC-- hollow-based wad-cutters in .358 cal. These bullets expand on firing and engage the rifling nicely. Meister makes this slug in 158 gr., and Hornady makes it in 148 gr. A nice starting load is 3.5 gr. Unique over standard small pistol primers (Lyman Reloading Manual; 46th edition).
Factory ammunition is available, but is very underpowered to keep from blowing up some of the old top-breaks that are still around. Handloads can make the gun accurate and fun to shoot, but remember that this is baisically a .32 caliber frame and don't get carried away trying to hotrod it. The round is quiet, recoil is mild, and many of the pistols found are in nice shape. RCBS makes dies and shell-holders, but I noticed an earlier post in this thread that was really creative about getting around using them. I recommend you don't let 'em get away-- buy them cheap and use 'em for years.
Joe

[Four Fingers of Death]

I ended up buying the better one. It cycles and indexes nicely, but the second one had a misfitting grip (probably adapted off a .32) and didn't cycle positively.

The srial number is 805XX, located under the crane. It also has a small triangle or shield with the the flat on top and the point down, with the letter P in it and another contrast line on the lhs of the shield / triangle.

I understand that these had a heeled bullet of 38 calibre. Does this mean that the brass is basically short 38Special brass?

I will probably get a mould off Jim Allison at Cast Bullet Engineering.

The Colts had armoury marks as belonging to Broken Hill Propreitry Limited a huge mining company in Australia and engraved over the top of these was the Commonwealth Bank's armoury marks. Two Aussie icon companies.

I couldnt get him to drop the price, but in the end, he threw in a mint 357 Mag Astra Constable (4" Bbl). Strange looking thing, but seems to cycle sweetly and apparently it has an adjustable trigger.
MIck.

[Bent Ramrod]

Mick,

It would certainly be worth slugging your barrel and keeping an eye out for oversize .357" molds. The nominal diameter of the .38 S&W was 0.360" which should be attainable with any normally oversize factory .38 Special mold, or one properly lapped out. The .38 S&W did not require a heeled bullet; it was inside lubricated. According to Henry Stebbins, in dimensions it was a scaled-down .44 Russian, and quite accurate. A friend of mine shoots his bureau-drawer specials in this caliber frequently and he never reloads; can't remember who makes the ammo, but it is available (maybe Fiocchi?).

The British loaded it with a 200-gr bullet for service use; this ".38-200" allegedly gave the same knock-down power of the .455 calibers, with the usual alleged reduction in recoil.

[Four Fingers of Death]

BR, can I cut down 38Special brass? I have some 38S&W cases (and some Dominion Ammo, big jacketed bullet!), but they are at home and I am not in a position to compare at the moment.

Anyone use the Astra Constable? My mate had a Cadix years ago and it shot well. Same gun I think, but with a 6" Bbl. Funny thing is, I've never seen an Astra in all my shooting days, apart from my friends and I tripped over another constable today for peanuts. Mick.

[Bent Ramrod]

Mick,

The head diameter of .38 S&W is 0.386" while that of .38 Spl is 0.379". I understand that many WWII surplus .38 S&W revolvers were rechambered to .38 Spl but the cases bulged at the rear end somewhat. With mild loads you could probably get by, but it would be better to look for the proper brass rather than do all that extra work for what would essentially be a makeshift.

[robertbank]

9mm dies should work if you don't have .38S&W dies I am told if you have the 9MM dies.

Take Care

Bob

[Four Fingers of Death]

Mick,

The head diameter of .38 S&W is 0.386" while that of .38 Spl is 0.379". I understand that many WWII surplus .38 S&W revolvers were rechambered to .38 Spl but the cases bulged at the rear end somewhat. With mild loads you could probably get by, but it would be better to look for the proper brass rather than do all that extra work for what would essentially be a makeshift.


I have a 50 round packet or thereabouts, that will keep me out of trouble. It seems every couple of weeks or so I have to buy a new set of dies and a few hundred or more cases and some moulds.

I gotta have all bases covered shortly.

So far the only thing outstanding is the 38 S&W and the 7.62x54 Russkie!

I'll try using the 9mm dies, I have a spare set.

A few pics of the new(?) arrival:


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Handguns/ColtPolicePositive38SW7.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Handguns/ColtPolicePositive38SW8.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Handguns/ColtPolicePositive38SW3.jpg

NB: I picked up the Redfield scope cheap as well, I usually only use Leupold, but this one will go well I reckon.

[Four Fingers of Death]

You did buy it right? What cal.? tell us more.
How hard is it for you to buy a handgun?

You can't buy for personal protection at all.

You can buy if you are a licensed, active and financial member of a registered pistol club. Once that is in place, which takes a while, it is reasonably simple.

If you see a gun, you produce your license and they will show it to you. Pay for it, fill in the form go to the club secretary and he will fill in his part of the form confirming that you are financial, etc and then send it off to the registry with $30 or fill in the credit card part. 28 day cooling off period (doesn't matter that you might have a safe or two full of guns at home, you still gotta cool off. When they send you the permit to acquire, you can pick the gun up and take it home.

The clincher is, if you got plenty bucks, you keep a couple of pre approved permits in your pocket and you buy and walk out of the shop the moment you pay for the gun.

They don't seem to consider how many guns you have, just that you meet the criteria. In some other states, they are reluctant to approve a gun similar to the one you have. Not a problem here. Mick.

[robertbank]

Yea and our stupid Liberals up here copied as much as they could get away with of your legislation when they passed C 68 up here. We kicked the buggers out and hopefully some of the damage can be corrected now by the Conservatives.

We don't have it quite as bad as that but we have our share of dumb regulations.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Mick--

That little Colt is a beauty, for sure.

I also advise against use of 38 Special brass cut off to fit the chambers. Get the real stuff, if possible. Starline makes a VERY GOOD case in this caliber.

I never tried the 9mm LUGER dies with the 38 S&W........the 9mm MAKAROV carbide sizer was perfect, as was the Mak expander die for my fat-throated revolvers. I bought the RCBS Cowboy die set to get a seater die that would roll-crimp properly--its sizer die is good (requires case lube), but the expander spuds are too long. I did contact RCBS about this, and they were good enough to send out 2 new expanders--one for use with .358" boolits (mics @ .356") and the second for .361" boolits, micing at .359". The spuds are still too long for those short cases, but I'll find a use for the tools eventually.

[StanDahl]

The Colt Police Positive was made on the "D" frame, as were the Detective Specials, Agents, Bankers and a few others. It is indeed chambered for the 38 S&W. They did make this revolvers in 38 Special, but it is named the Police Positive Special and has a slightly longer cylinder to handle the "Special" round.

I don't know about the company name for the model, but my circa 1920 PP 38 Special is marked "Police Positive 38 Special". The cylinder is 1.576" long. It's a nifty little gun and gives good results with 145gr wadcutters and Unique or 231.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/StanDahl/ColtPP.jpg

Just in case this adds anything to the discussion.:-D

[Four Fingers of Death]

Yea and our stupid Liberals up here copied as much as they could get away with of your legislation when they passed C 68 up here. We kicked the buggers out and hopefully some of the damage can be corrected now by the Conservatives.

We don't have it quite as bad as that but we have our share of dumb regulations.

Take Care

Bob

Where we copped it in the neck, was that the pollies realised there would be a huge backlash whichever way they went, but the non shooters vastly outnumbered the shooters, so the cunning B's held a non partisan vote, which meant that they all voted as a block and it wasn't one party arguing against the other. They ensured that we couldn't vote em out, beacuse they all did it. Bugger! MIck.

PS, I hope the recent shootings up your way do not spark a rash of restrictions like they did here a few times.

[robertbank]

We are hearing some reaction from the anti-gun crowd but it is muted by the fact after the Montreal University shootings 20 years ago their infamous gun registry that cost us $2 Billion dollars was supposed to protect us from this recent event. Well to no ones surprise it didn't and can't. The march to end this lunacy has been slowed but in the end we shall prevail.

Let us know how the Police Positive shoots. I have a Webley & Scott in that caliber. Great little shooter. Kind of a useless cartridge in a way but fun to bang away at tin cans and the like. After I got it I came to realize why my uncle, who was a Captain in one of our Tank Regiments during WW11, never once fired his "pistol" through Sicily, Italy, and N.E. Europe.

I got my gun from Edmonton City Police. The went to the .38spl after officers shot at a fleeing bank robber and watched as their rounds bounced off the rear windshield of the get away car.

Take Care

Bob

[Four Fingers of Death]

MY brother was a cop and he had the same problem with the 38 Special with full metal jackets, bounced off the boot (trunk) and rear windscreen. This and similar failures saw us go over to HPs. I was very relieved when we also got issues teh HPs. Mick.

[Dale53]

4fingermick;
FWIW, Starline has .38 s&W. Just order out 1000 cases and forget any problems. That ought to make a dandy little revolver as soon as you get a load worked up that shoots to the sights.

I just LOVE small revolvers (as well as the big boomers).

Dale53

[Four Fingers of Death]

I bought this little beauty and ooked at a BFR at the same time. They are an imoressive pistola! I would like one in 444 or 38/55. Nice guns, bigger than Texas though.
Mick.

[Buckshot]

.................4FMick, that's a nice looking old revolter. Lottsa character. Deputy Al was into the 38 S&W long before me. Actually I never much even thought about it until my folks were moving to Arizona. My dad mentioned the old Smith M&P he had and I suggested :-) he give it to me, and he did.

For some reason the squatty little cartridge kinda caught my fancy, and the unassuming pistol did also. Not big and shiny, no monstrous hole in the end of the barrel and the word 'magnum' was nowhere to be seen! Probably akin to someone who dotes on the 32 S&W, but I've not run across anyone like that yet!

So now I have 3 of the beggers. Two S&W M&P's of which one is blued with a bobbed 4" bbl and the other a real nice 'as issued' Victory model. Then there is the Iver Johnson nickel plated break top. None of them come close to the capabilities of my K38, but all three will keep a cylinderload in the black of a 25 yard pistol bull shooting offhand.

................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

It is a nice litle gun buckshot. There was a second one which didn't cycle smoothly, sorta hanging up at the end, but the tag was getting in the way. This one has ths bank's armoury no4 and the other one was no8. I probably should ring up and get the other one as well, he was just going to wholesale them off. I go the impression that he has taked the business over with a silent partner and is very cash strapped. I hope he makes it, it is a reasonable gunshop. Mick.

[jobo12]

Mick,
Is that pistol a Police Positive or a Police Positive Special? It should say which on the barrel. Typically, when these guns were sold for UK usage where .38/200 ammunition was to be used, the Police Positive Special was sold. Until recently, I owned a RHKP marked Colt (Royal Hong Kong Police) which was a Police Positive Special, even though it was marked and chambered .38 S&W caliber. The difference is the length of the cylinder-- the Police Positive had a short cylinder capable of chambering .32 S&W Long, .22 LR, and .38 S&W (and all manner of competing .32 & .38 cartridges by Colt & S&W which were shorter than this). The Police Positive Special had a cylinder length long enough for the .38 special and the .32-20 (I currently have one of these in .32-20, its a dandy). If the barrel is not marked, check if a .38 special will protrude out of the end of the cylinder when chambered (definitely do not try to fire this round in the gun-- the case size of the .38 S&W is larger, and the smaller Special case can split). If the cylinder length is sufficient for the .38 special cartridge, then you have the larger frame size. It really doesn't matter much, except that the P.P.S. seems a little more robust to me. The .38 S&W cartridge is found in both frame sizes. Factory rounds are readily available in the US, with Remington being the most common. I think you have found an interesting and historical piece with all those comercial markings on it-- enjoy!
Joe

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you look closely at the photo of the lhs side you will see that it is marked Colt Police Positive 38.

I mentioned earlier that a 38 protrudes from the cylinder (which is really short BTW), si it is definetly a 38 Smith and Wesson.

Mick.

[Bigjohn]

4mick;

I have a set of SIMPLEX master dies series 3 for 38 Smith & Wesson. New, unused, I bought then when someone asked me to load some rounds for a handgun for him. I think he sold it soon after the dies arrived.

The dies list the #6 shellholder for the set but I think it should be larger for the rim.

I recently had some cases come through in some gear I was sorting through.

John.

[Four Fingers of Death]

That great, I'll send you a PM, Mick.

[Buckshot]

................So have you shot it yet?

...............Buckshot

[Bigjohn]

Buckshot,
Downunder here in OZ we have what is referred to as a 28 day min. "Waiting Period", so when we put in the paperwork for approval to purchase a firearm we have to wait a min. of 28 days before we find out if we have approval to purchase said firearm.

The Police need a good reason not to approve any application.

Mick could still be in the waiting period for his paperwork. I am waiting on some results of his exploits with this one as well. I'm sure he will post when he has something.

John.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Actually, I have mentioned this before, but if you are cashed up, you can get permits approved in advance. They last 3 months here in NSW. Got apermit in your pocket? See somethng you like? Plonk down money and permit and walk away. The Shooters Party in NSW are trying to get the 28 day waiting time done away with after the first purchase. This has already happened in Victoria I am told. Mick.

Actually Mick has been slack and hasn't even put the permit in yet! :-(