6.5 practice cast bullet

[Nrut]

Hello..... I have a Model 7 .260 Rem rifle that I would like to use for practicing snap shooting at a steel target at around 100 yds or so....the vel would be in the 1800-2000 fps range.......Althought I have been casting since the mid 80's I don't own a 6.5 mold.....any suggestions?....second questions does any one out there use a 6.5 for hunting deer and blackbear with cast bullets and if so what do you find that works best....load wise & bullet wise...I have access to a LBT softnose caster if that helps......thanks for any info that you may share.....cheers...mic

[Oldfeller]

Nrut,

The pain-free way to deal with your 6.5mm shooting .260 rifle is to simply feed it the jacketed bullet that it happens to like the best.

If you are masochistic, get yourself a 6.5 cast bullet mold of ANY kind cast some and join the Karlina Cast Therapy Group that meets every few weeks right here on this same bat-channel.

Karlina, she will drive you crazy and make you puke green pea soup out of your nostrils. She just got two more into her evil clutches just this past few days ago -- had them speaking in tounges to each other with their heads spinning around all backwards (opposite twist rates too).

People who shoot 6.5mm cast bullets need (for mild cases) a psychatrist and for advanced cases, they need an exorcist.

Ask Father Jumptrap or Waksupi or Sundog or Mavin or Buckshot -- shooting cast 6.5 bullets (especially out of a Karlina) isn't for alter-boys. If you can't stand the shock of sometimes seeing your bullets disappear off the entire target backstop, don't even talk about speeds over 1,650 - 1,750 fps.

Some folks here have gotten a bad case of Karlina and have made up multiple cast bullet molds trying to whip her. One crazy person even stuck steel reinforcing rods inside a long 6.5 bullet in an attempt to get them to fly straight. He also cut down some to the relative length of a .22 short, machining them compusively on all surfaces except the bottoms of the lube grooves and weight sorting them to "half a grain" sort lots. That one may never recover ....

There are some poor sick crippled people on this list because of Karlina.

Right now all these poor sick addicts are awaiting a new specialty mold to arrive, an attempt at a bullet that may be short enough to pass through the Bermuda Triangle style evil space warp that exists at the muzzle of a Swedish Mauser. This vessel of their hopes is called the 6.5 Kurtz.

Do you really have the courage to go into a mentally stressful situation that would make Hawkeye Pierce give up alchohol and wimmin, shave his head and weep?

Are you that crazy?

Oldfeller

[JBMauser]

I have had a similar thought about the 6.5 Swede but I have been around enough to have heard that going down that path is a excercise in pain and suffering. I don't ever recall anyone with success with cast bullets with those skinny pills. Has anyone had success with the 7.62x39 Soviet = 1 in 7.5" twist rate which is the only other rifle with such a fast twist? I do not own any communist sheet metal semi autos. I do own a bolt gun in 7.62x54r and have some yet to be fired cast in it. should not be a problem. I have read of chamber inserts for the short communist round for cheap shooting in .30cals. Any comments on the twist rate is that the swedes "bug- a -boo" Thanks, JB

[45 2.1]

A really poor description of the events. Seriously, if you follow the rules the rifle puts forth, they can shoot and do it pretty well, just look at what Buckshot did with a seriously undersize bullet. Thats why he's buying two molds.

[waksupi]

You are being optimistic with your velocity, if you have fast twist.
I've killed a couple bucks with the 6.5 Swede. Velocity around 1700 fps. I was using a Lyman 160 gr. bullet at the time, and bumped the nose up as fat as I could get it. Aircooled WW's. With a well placed shot, the deer would pretty much stay where they were, and after a few seconds, peacefully lie down. One even went back to feeding until it's knees buckled. These shots at under 50 yards.
The 6.5 has plenty of penetration, but placement is important. The autopsies showed this load would make a hole about 1.5" across when shot through the lungs. One that hit the liver shattered it into a star shape, with the wound extending four to five inches across.

[StarMetal]

Buckshot for everyone's information tried to help find a bullet my 260 would like. We talked in depth on the phone about it and about the 6.5 Swede. Buckshot said the same thing Oldfeller said here, to keep the velocity down below 1700 fps in the Swede. Buckshot HAS NOT had great success with the 6.5 Swede in the higher velocities. I believe the highest he obtained was maybe 1900 fps. If it takes a superior alloy to get the Swede to shoot, then it defeats the purpose of cast bullets, although that superior alloy is cast also. For that matter one could concider a jacketed bullet a superior alloy, except it's not cast. To further fuel the fire we can shoot zinc cast bullets out of any rifle at high velocities with very good accuracy. Let's see someone do it with WW's or #2 alloy, at high velocity, with accuracy.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Ok, I'll be serious. For a few minutes anyway.

The .264" bore size is blessed with a twist rate that will totally stabilize long 140-160 grain jacketed bullets. The combo of long skinny CAST bullets travelling quickly down fast twist rate tubes makes this mil-surp particularly challenging for normal cast bullet useages.

Long full weight cast bullets have a speed limit -- 1,650 is a safe top speed for long heavy cast bullets. Beagel made 1,900 with his 9 twist tube with good accuracy. Buckshot did similar, but was shooting at 50 yards, so Beagle keeps top speed accuracy honors for long bullets at 100 yards. Sundog and Maven have both posted good 1,650 rate groups in the past, so the long ones will go 1,650 if cajoled correctly. I can even do it on occasion.

The 170 grain cruse missile is a deady hunting bullet at this 1,650 speed range and because of its excellent BC it maintains that deadly hunting ability out to the point you really can't dope out the vertical drop any more. It would penetrate a deer butt to antlers if you shot one that way at any reasonable distance (or unreasonable as the case may be if you could just dope out the drop).

As the bullets get shorter and lighter, the speed limit goes up some. We are currently building a light plinker bullet mold (6.5 Kurtz) that may be able to reliably break 2,050 fps with good accuracy. This speed is important as that speed in a Obendorf Swede is turning 200,000 rpm and it qualifies for Dan's Contest. Somebody is going to take that prize .....

Take that same 120 grain slug and pop a deer sideways with an air-dropped WW bullet and you will get a good big exit wound with a lot of expansion on the slug. Still a deer killing bullet, just not ass to antlers like the cruse missile could do.

Now, about Karlina being able to make good people act crazy -- I rest my case. Karlina has worked her evil magic on at least two of our otherwise sensible members just very recently. I have EARNED THE RIGHT to say Karlina has evil juju magic BTW, she has worked it on me too.

It was me what did the steel cored super slugs and machined the wee-bitty all machined sluglets, so I can poke fun at myself all I want to. Everybody knows I'm Karlina demential anyway. Jumptrap can tell you all about it as he is a recovering Karlina addict himself, except he is too retiring and soft-spoken to actually say anything.

<g>

Oldfeller

[swheeler]

Nrut: I personally have not tried a 260 Rem, but have tried cast in the 6.5 Swede M96, and then only one bullet, the 170 Oldfeller. I'm guessing that the Remington has a 1 in 9 twist barrel which could make it alot easier to work up a cast load, compared to the 7.5 inch of the Swede. Although Joe has a rechambered Arisaka, which has a 9" twist, and as he said, couldn't find a load that worked worth a hoot! Good luck!
Scooter

[StarMetal]

swheeler is right. I have an Arisaka rebarreled to 260 Rem. With jacketed it stays under 3/4 inch at 100 yards. I haven't found a cast that I'm satisfied with for it yet. Now my groups are about 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards. To me, a rifle with a 3x9 scope, off a benchrest, sandbagged and all, with a decent trigger....that isn't acceptable to me. I have quite a few other scoped rifles that actually shoot cast better then jacketed at high velocity. My CZ 30-06 and Sako 7mm-08 will literaly cut holes with cast. I don't expect my 260 to do that, but if it shot say 1 1/2 inch consistantly, I'd be satisfied. I shot some of Oldfellers 170 gr cruisemissiles and if I got too low a velocity they keyholed. At higher velocities they showed some promise, but the consistantly wasn't there. They would start a cluster, then start flying. Now the throat on my 260 is very very tight. In fact Buckshot sent me some of his Lyman mould cast bullets and he sized them at .268 I believe and they wouldn't fit the gun, plus they were too fat for the bore. My bore slugs .264 right on the button and the throat isn't too much bigger. I did lenghten the throat with a throat reamer because I couldn't even load a short jacketed bullet out very far. The Arisaka is a long action for a 260 Rem and I could take advantage of that by loading the bullets out farther. I shot a deer with it last season with a jacketed bullet and put it away, but now all this talk I think it's time to bring it out again. As swheeler said my rifle has a 9 in twist. It shoot be able to shoot cast pretty good.

Joe

[Buckshot]

............Nrut, all rifles are different beasts so a bit of tinkering is necessary to begin with. Even a M94 Win in the good ole 30-30 may be a bit cranky at first. So now.............

All my experience with the 6.5 has been with the Swede and a tiny dab with an Italian Carcano. The problem lies pretty much with the twist. So far as I'm concerned and what I've seen in 3 fast twist rifles (.444 Marlin 14", 375-'06-12", and the two 6.5's 7.8") is that it does not treat cast well. Why it's so is a topic for another thread.

Rather then relate all the heartache, headache, gas and heartburn I went through, I'll just say that your best and most CONSISTANT accuracy will be found at most anywhere from 1200 to 1700 fps. The reason for the caps is that I have had a couple really good groups at a bit over 1800 fps. But you cannot count on it.

There is nothing especially wierd or unduly hard about getting a 6.5mm to shoot cast lead. Start just like any other rifle. Slug the barrel and the throat to see what you need groove wise, to start with. There is not a wide variety of 6.5mm moulds out there to play with so your selection shouldn't be too hard. I have 6 Swede Mausers and they all shoot a boolit softer then linotype very accurately and without leading. Say about 16 bhn or so. A bit harder then WW alloy. Until recently all lubing had been Javalina (NRA 50/50). It still is sometimes, if I don't wanna mess with heating the other lube-sizer.

The 2 common sizer diameters for the 6.5 is .264 and .266". Choose the largest of which will fit your rifle's throat. Be sure to mike the slug after sizing and before loading if there is any possiblity of your selection being a tight fit in the chamber. All sizing dies do not size to what is stamped on them, plus you will have a bit of springback to a 16 bhn alloy. Also it may be a bit smaller. Just be aware of the finish size so if you have a problem you'll have this info beforehand.

I've had good luck with 4227 powder and also Unique. My favorite is WC872 ball surplus in charges of 32 to 34 grs. If you have some, try it first. It doesn't burn clean in this application because it's so slow. However, for the accuracy it delivers I can live with it! Maven has had very good results with surplus WC820 ball (similar to AA#9). He can supply the data.

Lastly as 45 2-1 mentioned, I did do some shooting with an old NLA Lyman mould. It was a SC and dropped a 122gr HP Loverin slug at .268" if I recall. Sized to .266" I used WC872 (as a proven known quantity to me as I had a limited number of slugs). Starmetal mentioned 1900 fps and this is probably about right without my checking my data. The best part was that accuracy remained VERY good at this speed, and I only stopped as I had run out of these boolits to shoot.

The current custom order for the 6 cav Lee mould dropping nominal 125gr slugs is based on this high speed accuracy. It appeared that going heavy (long) wasn't the right direction. It remains to be seen if this new shorter-lighter boolit will perform as well. I do encourage you to try cast in your 6.5mm. However I seriously doubt that you will be happy with your accuracy at 1800-2000 fps with any 140 to 160gr cast boolit. I hope I'm wrong, though.

What I've mentioned above has worked for me. It's not graven in stone by any means, and it's only offered as a place you might choose to start.

...............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Maybe a certain person will see now that what I was talking about wasn't armchair shooting.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Joe-
Can you read and understand, he said this:

Lastly as 45 2-1 mentioned, I did do some shooting with an old NLA Lyman mould. It was a SC and dropped a 122gr HP Loverin slug at .268" if I recall. Sized to .266" I used WC872 (as a proven known quantity to me as I had a limited number of slugs). Starmetal mentioned 1900 fps and this is probably about right without my checking my data. The best part was that accuracy remained VERY good at this speed, and I only stopped as I had run out of these boolits to shoot.

He said that accuracy remained VERY good at this speed. Read it until you understand it. He said it, not me. He ran out of bullets to test. I own the mold he used. I said the bullets were undersize for what he was trying. Let him test bullets out of the new molds at a larger size before you try to jump everyone. He shot them, not you since you don't have a Swede.

[Nrut]

Well I certainly thank you all for your input....Oldfeller and his tales of Karlina have me thinking I should just use Rem. bulk bullets until the jury results come in on your "Lee 6 cavity group buy" mold......I think the twist rate on my .260 is probably slower than the Swede so it may not be as hard to get to shoot....I'm not looking for benchrest type groups for practice but don't want to get side tracked trying to get the .260 to shoot passable groups either!!.......I'm sure you all know how that goes as per Karlina's curse!!!.........I also have a 38-55 Marlin CB with a .381 grooove dia. to contend with for now (just getting started) so will put the .260/cast project on the shelf for now.......thanks again for all your input...I'm overwhelmed ........cheers mic

has Karlina cursed the Marlin CB in 38-55 also???

[StarMetal]

45 2.1

Yes I read it. To me 1900 fps falls into the upper range of the low velocity range. It's no ways near 2400 fps. There's a big difference in the bullet rpm's between those two speeds.

I've very interested in seeing how the new short bullet will do. What concerns me is for one I throated my 260 out long so I could see the bullets out farther and two the 6.5 Swede apparently is throated pretty far out to handle those long heavy military bullets they were designed for. Thus I'm concerned about will this present too much jump for the new short bullet?

I was concidering to chamber the new rifle I build on the Arisaka action to 6.5 Swede. I decided on the 260 because I like that class of cartridges designed off the 308 parent. One thing if I did have it chambered to the Swede version it wouldn't have the Swede's very fast twist. I still have half a notion to have the barrel cut back a tak and rechambered to 6.5 Swede, merely because the round would feed better being that it's more long and slender similar to the original 6.5 Jap. I have worked some on the feed rails and the feeding of a full magazine is half decent, but not perfect.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Joe-
Maybe i'm confused, but your going to have to explain your statement below. 7 1/2" twist produces the same initial RPMs out of the barrel. I don't think you meant to use the term RPM (rotations per minute) here. Rotations per distance traveled changes with speed as does the centrifugal force of the bullet.

Joe's statement: There's a big difference in the bullet rpm's between those two speeds.

[StarMetal]

What I meant is that the rpm's of the bullet exiting the muzzle at 1900 fps are alot different then the same bullet exiting the muzzle at 2400 fps. Most the other fellows here that have played with the Swede believe it's the high rotational speed caused by the Swede's extremely fast twist that is killing the longer cast bullet's accuracy. I'm in the process of testing this out with my 1/7 twist AR15 with long 70 gr cast bullets for it. So far it hasn't exhibited the same failures as the Swede. I've already have shot some (abeit they were of a soft alloy and Bullshop has sent me some harder alloy ones and I will retest) at 3000 fps then they still stayed on the target, not to fly off in wonder wonder land as Waksupi other have mentioned. So apparently my long 22 caliber bullets out of my 7 twist barrel aren't getting bent upon muzzle exit. What started me on this, not with you, is that I thought it funny that my 260 is being a bugger to get shooting cast bullet and it is of the 6.5 bore family. One would think that it's 9 twist would be alot more cooperative then the Swede's faster twist, but not so in my rifle so far. By the my rifle has been tested both fully bedded and barrel free floated with no difference in jacketed or cast. So I ruled out bedding with my cast problem with it. I'll have to go look at my throat slug I made to see what I am dealing with in that rifle, but I can tell you that it's not too much larger then the groove diameter which is .264 on the button. Like I said the bullets Buckshot sent me were sized to .268 and they wouldn't even begin to chamber.

Joe

[350mag]

Doggone it all, just when it looked like Joe and 45 2.1 were gonna get into a name calling free for all pissing match they start having a reasonable conversation again:) Boys, ya gotta remember to stay mad at each other if you want to have a real drag out fight. Don't ruin all my entertainment value by returning to rational behavior. I don't own a 6.5 and never really have wanted one but I sure enjoy a good flame war when it gets burning hot:)
Ken

[StarMetal]

Shame on you 350mag, go stand in the corner!!! I'm not going to call 45 2.1 any names so you might as well find another flame fight. All I want to do is get to the bottom of why the 6.5 Swede (and throw in the 260 Rem or any 6.5 caliber rifle) are so hard or finickly to get to shoot higher velocities accurately and if they really do bend softer alloy bullets upon muzzle exit. Hopefully I make him think and hopefully he makes me think. They always say two heads are better then one. All the folks that have a 6.5 Swede or know some about this jump in instead of hoping for a good flame fight.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Try some copper babbit for your bullets. It works along with wilke/barnes drive bands and paper patching. In general a PITA to do if you want to shoot alot.

350 mag- Stand too close to your stove, then go jump in the surf if you want excitement.

[StarMetal]

Boy, and to think, at one time I had a babbit supply that was plentiful enough to keep a 105 howitzer in service for years.

Joe

[350mag]

OK I'm in the corner now. It is a good thing I have a wireless laptop or I would have to be out of this discusion.
Joe, I was thinking about you trying to duplicate the symptoms with a long 22 cal. I wonder if the length to diameter ratio that is the issue, or is there also a hardness to diameter issue that is correlated to length? Then throw the whole RPM variable into it too.
Ken

[StarMetal]

I'm just wondering if this finicky problem with the 6.5 is only with the 6.5 bore caliber. That's why I'm experimenting with the long for bore diameter 22 cal cast slugs I have ready to go. Soon as I get them loaded I'll give it another whirl.

From what 45 2.1 has said there might just be a bending problem with the 6.5 in the Swede and/or something to do with how the bullet is gripped by the rifling. I sure would love to try that loverin Buckshot was shooting before he ran out, in my 260.

Joe

[waksupi]

Doggone it all, just when it looked like Joe and 45 2.1 were gonna get into a name calling free for all pissing match they start having a reasonable conversation again:) Boys, ya gotta remember to stay mad at each other if you want to have a real drag out fight. Don't ruin all my entertainment value by returning to rational behavior. I don't own a 6.5 and never really have wanted one but I sure enjoy a good flame war when it gets burning hot:)
Ken

Ken, in all the permutations of this board, I don't ever recall a real flame war. And I hope it stays that way. We might get mad at each other, and have widely diverging opinions, but all flaming does, is drag down the board as a hole. Them boys ain't most likely kissed and made up, but were both smart enough to move forward, looking for answers.

Here's a quote from the frontspiece of the book, "The Sporting Rifle, and it's Projectiles, by Lieut. James Forsyth, published in I believe 1862

"Our object in these inquiries must be the discovery of Truth alone. We must hold ourselves in readiness not only to abandon an old principle, but to relinquish a new one upon reason shown. We must go backwards as well as forwards if needs be. No previous conviction or apparent settlement ought to weigh with us against the latest and most absolute evidence."

[45nut]

Here's a quote from the frontspiece of the book, "The Sporting Rifle, and it's Projectiles, by Lieut. James Forsyth, published in I believe 1862

"Our object in these inquiries must be the discovery of Truth alone. We must hold ourselves in readiness not only to abandon an old principle, but to relinquish a new one upon reason shown. We must go backwards as well as forwards if needs be. No previous conviction or apparent settlement ought to weigh with us against the latest and most absolute evidence."

That my friends is really the spirit of the board. We test,report,accept and give feedback and encouragement and above all listen before stamping our feet and sticking our head in the sand. We learn from each other and freely give our help when we can. Thats why this board is what is is. CB is a state of mind and not a location.

[Buckshot]

Nrut, "Oldfeller and his tales of Karlina have me thinking I should just use Rem. bulk bullets until the jury results come in on your "Lee 6 cavity group buy" mold.

............A couple things. I'd like to make it clear up front that I have zero experience with ANY 6.5mm other then the several Swedes I own and the Carcano. Both share the same 7.8" twist. My Carcano is NOT a M91 so it doesn't have a gaintwist.

............Secondly, the 6.5mm Swede ISN'T anymore difficult to get shooting cast well then a 30-30. You just cannot drive the boolit as fast. Velocity is the killer, ie: rotational velocity. The accuracy potential has been shown to be fairly limited to 1700 fps and below.

**"I think the twist rate on my .260 is probably slower than the Swede so it may not be as hard to get to shoot....**

............Very possibly so. You may gain 100 fps in accurate velocity, or an increase substantialy above that. Again, getting good accuracy isn't hard. Getting it in the velocity region you want seems to be the problem. Below are the 6.5mm slugs I've worked with:

http://www.fototime.com/8B8B8013CDC151A/standard.jpg
A) The NLA Lyman 122gr hollowpoint
B) The NLA 'Jumptrap' 1st edition 140gr Lee Custom (2nd was pointy)
C) The NLA Lyman 152gr 'Hi-Velocity' 268645 mould
D) The NLA 'Oldfeller' 172gr Cruise missle

Below is the last three groups fired with the 122gr Lyman in the velocity test:

http://www.fototime.com/142E2E3B975802E/standard.jpg
I can't seem to find the 2nd data sheet, but have the 1st. While you look at the above groups, please bear in mind I had a limited supply of these boolit's on hand to test.

1) They were NOT scaled, visually inspected only.
2) I could not experiment with powder. As mentioned, surp WC872 (very slow) was used as it has always done well with the heavier slugs, and as such I had at least a bit of reference to compare it's performance. A slightly faster powder 'might' have done better with this light design.
3) Fired from a 29" bbl
4) Ten shot groups at 50 yards benched.
5) Issue iron sights and trigger
6) In order to complete the test as far as I went, I had to go back and re-inspect and utilize a few NOT so perfect boolits.

Data avail. Charge/velocity/group

32.0/1570/1.36"
33.0/1644/1.11"
34.0/1707/1.69"
35.0/1772/1.25"
36.0/1835/1.65"

Extrapolating the velocities form the above data, not considering further case volumn decreases for possible velocity increases beyond an apparent 50 fps per grain velocity increase, you would have (estimate):

37.0/1880/1.42"
38.0/1930/2.85"
39.0/1980/1.14"

If you look at the data you will see that groups alternately opened and closed as the charge increased. I have seen this before in other calibers. I have also seen groups continually decrease in size with charge increases and then the opposite has happened to me too.

I would think that realisticly the final velocities shown may actually have exceeded 2,000 fps. As these were 10 shot groups I can feel confidant that the good (comparatively) groups are NOT merely flyers all flying together. I also honestly suspect that groups would also decrease with the shooting of scaled boolits, better sights, and possibly even a different powder.

In any event, the substantially higher velocities obtained with these lighter slugs, vs historic performance with the heavier ones used in all other shooting, led to the commission of the current 6 cavity custom Lee 125gr design.

One thing to remember for whatever reason you have for your listed velocity requirements, these 6.5mm slugs carry some pretty interesting sectional densities and ballistic co-efficients. The relatively lower velocities vs some other cartridges might not be a real hinderence to whatever you have planned for them.

.................Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Buckshot

On those 122 grainers, why did you run out? Was it that someone gave you the slugs and you don't actually have the mould for it?

Joe

[350mag]

Sorry if anybody took my comments about a flame war seriously. My tongue was planted firmly in cheek on that one. As Waksupi noted we have never had a real flame war or trolling with this group and I hope we never do. There is more than enough of that on other boards to keep anybody happy.

My question about boolits bending on exit from the muzzle shouldn't be confined to the 6.5 bore. I am not saying that the boolit isn't bending, but it should happen to any boolit if the twist, length, diameter, and hardness have the right relationship to each other. the problem is, with at least 4 variables, it might be very complex and difficult to correlate on an experimental basis. The analogy of a wire spinning in a drill gives a good visual. Imagine chucking a 300gr 45cal cast boolit in a drill. It just sits there and spins. Next size it down to 44 cal, still it just spins. Keep sizing it down to 40 cal, then 35, then 30 and so on somewhere in there it will get too long and thin and soft and will bend over and do its propeller imitation. So at what point does this happen at a given diameter and a given twist? Logic would dictate that the smaller the bore the sooner this would manifest itself, so Joe should be able to duplicate this in the 22 cal 7 twist at a lower velocity or shorter boolit more easily than in the 6.5.

Ken

[StarMetal]

Well I shot the long 70 grainers in my AR 15. Sorry to report that the groups weren't too hot, but happy to report on a couple things. One, they don't bend coming out of the muzzle at over 3100 fps, which is in the very high 300,000 some rpm bracket. They stayed on the target and the holes in the targer were round, not keyholed or oblong. Second, being this rifle is a pre ban it has the flashhider and a flashhider sure shows powder carbon and lead wash if the cast bullet I am using leaves any wash. Well, with the harder alloy that Bullshop made this batch out and my Greenstar lube, there not only was not lead wash, there wasn't even any powder residue. I have no explanation as why there wasn't any powder residue. The gas system and bolt were as clean as though I shot jacketed. Powders used were both surplus: 844 and 4895.

I shot a few of these out of my 223 Win Mod 70 varminter, which has a much slower twist, a 12 twist I believe. It surprised me, it shot them better then the AR's 7 twist, but still no cigar in the grouping.

Back to the drawing board, but I proved to myself that a 7 twist in a 22 caliber rifle doesn't bend an overly long bullet. Don't forget I shot these in a softer alloy too and they still all stayed on the target.

Joe

[Buckshot]

Buckshot

On those 122 grainers, why did you run out? Was it that someone gave you the slugs and you don't actually have the mould for it?

Joe

..........The reason I didn't have any more of the slugs then I did was it was one of 4 hollowpoint SC Lymans a friend sold to me. I subsequently sold them on down the road. I only cast some out of the 6.5mm mould because of my interest in the 6.5 and these little boolits looked 'cute'. I had no great expectations for them as I thought at the time that heavier would be better, so far as velocity was concerned.

I now wish that I had had more to dink with. I hope that the Lee custom 125gr slug in the works performs at least as well. After seeing how lube can effect a slugs' ability to perform (30-40 Krag with Javalina and then AnthonyB's Green Heat lube) I would have liked to have tried that should accuracy began to deteriorate. Up to the max velocity shown, Javalina had been used and at no time during the test was there any leading or lead wash at the muzzle.

...............Buckshot

[45 2.1]

[QUOTE=Buckshot
I now wish that I had had more to dink with. I hope that the Lee custom 125gr slug in the works performs at least as well. After seeing how lube can effect a slugs' ability to perform (30-40 Krag with Javalina and then AnthonyB's Green Heat lube) I would have liked to have tried that should accuracy began to deteriorate. Up to the max velocity shown, Javalina had been used and at no time during the test was there any leading or lead wash at the muzzle................Buckshot
...............Buckshot[/QUOTE]

I'm currently using seven lubrisizers, all with different lubes. When testing the 4570 for extreme accuracy, I found that lube makes or breaks accuracy along with crimp type, location and strength. Different bullet designs affected accuracy depending on which lube got used. One lube did not work with all bullets, each bullet required a lube that it liked to give that kind of accuracy.

[StarMetal]

Okay fellows. I went back to the drawing board and this time paydirt. Okay first the loads: Lyman 45 gr cast (that I bought for my 22 Hornet) water quenched WW's, one load was with 20 grs of 4895 and one with 20 grs of 844, both surplus powders. The other load was Bullshop's heavy 70 gr bullet, which I don't know the composition of, nor hardness, this time I loaded it down...14 grs of Dupont 4227 (yeah I have some old cans of it never opened). Two rifles, one a Model 70 Win varminter heavy barrel with 24x scope and the other a pre ban Colt HBAR AR15 with 3x9 scope. In the target picture , which is only for the AR15, the group of shots in area that are outlined and the shots that are outside the outline (some of which are circled and some not) are the two different powder loaded 45 grainers. The one we're interested in here is the big hole that is in among that big circled group of shots. That's all five of Bullshops 70 grainers. That hole is slightly over 3/8's of an inch. Yeah I know, I should have put new targets up, but it was getting late and I wanted to finish it. Ok, now the good part, at least I think it is. The velocity of those 70 grainers averaged 2400 fps. The 7 twist the Colt has gave the bullets a rotational spin of (FELIX GET THIS) 246,857 rpm's. Now you fellows know why Dan of mountain moulds wouldn't let me shoot my AR 15 for his 200,000 rpm contest. An interesting thing, one would think that the Model 70 Win varminter, especially with the more powerful scope would have beat the AR 15, but it didn't. The Colt won by a bit too. By the way these were fired at 50 yards, as I wanted to see what they would do first. I'll have to load up more now. The gas system in the AR didn't even have any greasy lube in it, just carbon fouling from the powder, which I thought was unusual. Well, the AR 15 in 22 caliber with a 7 twist will shoot long heavy bullets of regular alloy, which to me is WW's.

Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/img/284672.jpg

[Scrounger]

Jeez, StarMetal, can't you afford targets? I have literally thousands of them, far more than I will ever use. Send me your address and I will send you a representative selection. When I find one I like for whatever purpose, I take it down to OfficeMax and run off a bunch of copies, $0.05 each, even the 11"" by 17" ones. Did I tell you I'm cheap?

[StarMetal]

Yeah, I know, I know. I'm cheap I guess. I use to use our old used paperplates, the ones that weren't soiled too badly. I have a target sight saved and was going to run some off, but never got around to it. I think I shoot at more printer paper then my printer prints on.

Joe

[waksupi]

Lets see just how cheap you guys really are. How many re-use baggies, and plastic dinnerware after a BBQ? The Baggies will stand to be washed several times before they quit, and the plastic utensils last a fair amount of time. I use both when camping, so I don't care if I loose some. The baggies are especially good, as I repackage dry goods for the camp kitchen, and make much better use of space. I usually have a bag of corn meal and spices, so when I catch a fresh trout, I can gut it, drop it in the baggie for breading, and be ready for it to go into the fry pan. You can do quite a few fish in a bag of meal, and then just toss it, to save on doing extra dishes. Same for putting spices on chicken when camping.

[Scrounger]

Guilty. Anyone else reuse those twist-ties they have in produce section?

[carpetman]

My targets look sorta like that. I shoot one shot groups and all are one holers. I dont ever have any overlapping into same hole so you can tell em apart.

[carpetman]

Waksupi---It seems using cornbread on fish is common in Southern states and most everywhere else they use flour. Your using cornbread surprised me. Did you use it in Iowa and perhaps change when you lived in Florida? I heard over half of the wives are battered. Guess the others eat them plain.

[StarMetal]

When I lived in Oklahoma the Okie's yelled at me for using flour on fish, they said no no no, use crushed cornflakes. Been using them ever since, they ARE really good that way.

Joe

[carpetman]

Starmetal---Joe you missunderstood them Okies. They didnt mean use crushed cornflakes to cook fish. You mix Big Red Soda pop with crushed cornflakes to make carp bait.

[floodgate]

Scrounger, Starmetal, et al.: Rudi Prusok of the American Single-Shot Rifle Association is offering some special versions of the 25-ring Schuetzen 200-yd. targets, numbered to "3 to 27". Boosts scores quite a bit! floodgate