My first time casting was a failure!

[jonblack]

Well guys, I tried finally got enough gear gather up to try my hand at casting. Here is the list of equipment I have so far:

Turkey Fryer - 135,000 BTU
Cast iron pot - about 9" diameter and 6" tall
Stick on wheel weights
ladle and slotted spoon long stick
emergency candles for fluxing
Muffin pans for ingots
Lee 12 gauge 1oz slug mold
Safety gear - gloves, denim apron, goggles over glasses, dust mask (not lead rated)
No thermometer

Smelting:

Well I got everything in the pot and on the burner. Got the stick on weights heating up and melting just fine. Plenty of stinky smoke, as expecting. Stirred the pot with a long stick. Noticed some stick on weights and figured they must be zinc so I scooped them out. The pot had not been melting long so I think I got to the zinc before any had a chance to melt.

Fluxed with slices of emergency candle. Tried to get as much dross out as I could. Stirred more with stick. Fluxed, scooped, etc. Ladled lead into molds. Let those cool.

One of my muffin pans popped the lead right out. The other I could not get any of the lead to pop and destroyed to pan trying to do so. I will re-smelt those and get the lead out and ladle in the working muffin pan.

My ingots were not as clean as I thought they should be. My slotted spoon design made it hard to get all of the dross out.

Casting:

Emptied the pot from smelting. I threw a few pounds of ingots into the pot. Got the metal melting and started stirred and fluxing as before. Dipped the corner of the Lee 1oz slug mold in the melt to try to get it up to temperature. Flux some more then started filling the mold with a ladle. First pour I overfilled the mold and got lead all over the mold, jamming up the linkage. Spent a few minutes with a pair of pliers and finally unbolted the mold to get the excess lead out.

Cast about 10 slugs, all of which looked very "pitted." I could see plenty of lead stuck inside the mold. I don't know if it was trashy dross/lead from the stick on weights or if it was just cold lead. Never did get it out.

Stopped after casting a few slugs. Satisfied I didn't know what I was doing.

Observations:

I don't have a good thermometer yet, and I feel that is one of my biggest problems. The slugs I cast were very shiny, so I think my mold and/or my lead was not hot enough. Maybe that is also why I could not get the lead pimples out of the mold.

I need to get a better slotted spoon, as I don't think I got my lead clean enough.

Advice requested:

How can I clean out my mold? I have taken it apart and scratched at it with my fingernail and very gently with a brass brush. I did not want to get too aggressive and scratch the inside of the mold. I also used a heat gun to try to melt the lead out, no luck.

I did not get the mold clean. Any tips? Should I dip it in some melted lead?

I will try to post some pictures.

I am not discouraged. Actually, I am glad I made some mistakes. I like learning what not to do as I like learning what to do. Err...maybe not.

Anyway, friendly advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
jonblack

[lwknight]

Your quandry deserves some thinking.
One thing that came to mind right away is that the slotted spoon is for removing clips and other larger junk. You will need a long handled solid spoon to rake aside the fines ( dust , dross and what not) then get it out. I get the junk against the side and kinda slide it up the pot with the spoon at an angle as not to lift the melted lead.

I have not happened across crud sticking to the molds before so I can't help there.

[jonblack]

Thank you for your reply. That makes a lot of sense about raking the stuff to the side. Your description pretty much describes what I was not able to remove. It was gritty looking stuff, kinda like crushed charcoal. So, fines, dust, and dross sums it up nicely.

Thanks for the pointer.

jonblack

[cbrick]

Several years ago I purchased that same mold. I like to consider myself a fairly experienced caster, I do various HP's etc and have about 60 moulds all of which I can get a pretty good bullet out of, all except one . . . The Lee 1 ounce slug. This mold is so poorly built that a good slug is an arduous task to say the least. Frustration is a very weak word.

This mold is the reason that I swore that if they were going to put something like that on the market I would never buy another Lee mold. They did and I haven't.

So from my perspective as a new and completely inexperienced caster you have started out a fascinating and rewarding hobby with a very difficult (spelled - extremely poorly built) mold to work with. I can understand your lack of success on your first attempt so I hope you don't feel discouraged, it's not you, it's that mold. It sounds like you have done most things fairly well for someone just starting out, except that . . . well, I hate to call it a mold.

Did I mention what I really think of that mold?

Rick

[captaint]

Jon - Welcome to the board. You're singing a familiar tune. We've all been there. First, you need to get that mold really clean. Dish soap, hot water & toothbrush. Do it twice at least. Then, you need to get the mold heated up good before it will drop nice boolits. Ditto, what LW said regarding cleaning the melt. Usually, it takes at least a few pours to get the mold up to temp. When you get there, you'll see the diff. Clean mold, hot mold & stay with it. None of us knew what we were doing when we started out. Practice, practice. At least we can drop our bad bullets back in the pot and them over!!! enjoy Mike

[snuffy]

Several years ago I purchased that same mold. I like to consider myself a fairly experienced caster, I do various HP's etc and have about 60 moulds all of which I can get a pretty good bullet out of, all except one . . . The Lee 1 ounce slug. This mold is so poorly built that a good slug is an arduous task to say the least. Frustration is a very weak word.

This mold is the reason that I swore that if they were going to put something like that on the market I would never buy another Lee mold. They did and I haven't.

So from my perspective as a new and completely inexperienced caster you have started out a fascinating and rewarding hobby with a very difficult (spelled - extremely poorly built) mold to work with. I can understand your lack of success on your first attempt so I hope you don't feel discouraged, it's not you, it's that mold. It sounds like you have done most things fairly well for someone just starting out, except that . . . well, I hate to call it a mold.


I'm not looking to start a fight, just wanted to say I too bought the lee 1 oz slug mold. In fact, I just did a casting session yesterday with that brand new mold. I previously used the 7/8 ounce version, it too works well. here's a pic or 3 of yesterdays production.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/bullets/websize/IMG_0126.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/bullets/websize/IMG_0127.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/bullets/websize/IMG_0128.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/bullets/websize/IMG_0129.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/bullets/websize/IMG_0130.JPG

I dunno, they look pretty darn good to me! The mold was prepped with FA mold cleaner-degreaser in the spray can. Preheated with a propane torch, the first few were wrinkled, the mold was still too cool. The mold dropped effortlessly, never had one stuck.

You DO have to keep the lead out from behind the mold block. Lead that gets trapped there sometimes has to be melted loose. I simply tip the mold slightly forward from level to allow excess sprue lead from spilling behind the blocks.

Oh, that lead is scrap range lead, about the same as WW. They weigh about 463 grains and had very little variance.

Jon, don't get discouraged. You DID pick a difficult mold to learn on. You would be better off with some conventional boolit mold to cut your teeth on. Besides, casting over a hot propane fire wears you out in a hurry. Even temperature control is almost impossible. You'd better wait until you can get a good electric pot.

[DLCTEX]

Your mould wasn't hot enough. Probably Cbrick's problem too. If lead sticks to the mould you needed to keep it in the melt longer and the lead will turn loose. May need to wipe it with cotton cloth (don't use synthetic) to get the last bits off.

[Bret4207]

If your mould is like the one Snuffy has then you'll need it hot. The more complex the design the more heat becomes critical. I'd let the mould preheat, after a thorough cleaning, a good long time and then cast fast.

[44man]

I too have that slug mold and it has been no trouble at all, makes a perfect slug from pure lead. The problem is getting accuracy from a Hastings barrel on my 870, I have not found it yet.
I have to agree, get rid of the slotted spoon for casting, use it only for clips and those pesky valve stems. I rivet a long wood handle to an old spoon for skimming.
Need more heat, you can melt the lead off the mold by playing a propane torch all over it until the thing is heated evenly. Don't hold the torch in one spot.
Casting from the smelting pot is not a good idea unless you clean it out good.

[parson48]

I'm certainly not the most experienced guy here, but I do have that slug mold and it works well for me. My guess is that you need to get your mold hotter.

[bigboredad]

what 44man said is a good point try to get a different pan for casting i picked up a stainless pan from the thrift store for a dollar fifty. I also use a stainless soup ladle with a 3/16 inch hole drilled in the side yo pour out of. when casting I hold the mold at a angle so the extra lead runs to the front of the mold and back in to the pan. My ladle can hold almost 2 pounds of lead and a time or two when I knew my mold was to cold I would pour the whole ladle in it yo help heat it up this also gets my molds to fill out very well. I don't always use a full ladle on one cavity but I do use the overflow technique and it has worked very well for me I almost always get a good fill out this way and it helps keep the lee molds hot

[Moonie]

I have this mold, modified it with a chamfer tool so it now casts TC type slugs instead of the round nose. I didn't have any issues with this mold before or after the mod. Keep in mind this is a very large slug/boolit, needs to be very hot to get good fill out and aluminum molds need extra heat to begin with.

[qajaq59]

Jon, don't get discouraged. This casting busines takes a little time and we all started the same way. You'll get there....

I only have 2 of the Lee molds. But when they arrived I stuck them in a can of denatured alcohol overnight. Then I smoked them just once for the initial use, and never had a problem with them. I think the alcohol must get every bit of oil out of them. And to heat them I just put them on top of the lead in the pot. That way by the time the lead is melted they are plenty hot.

[Moonie]

If you heat the mold up by dipping it in the melt do be careful not to put it in so far that lead gets between the mold and the bracket holding the center pin. It will not come out without disassembly. Don't ask me how I know.

[AZ-Stew]

If you're getting lead stuck INSIDE the mould, you're mould temperature is WAY too hot! Either that or you're opening the mould too soon. You have to wait until the sprue puddle on top of the sprue plate completely solidifies. This should take no more than 6-7 seconds if you're casting "hot", a couple seconds less if you're running at the lowest temp that will cast good boolits. If you open the mould and your boolit is frosty and mushy, you're too hot and too early.

I'd suggest that you use 44Man's technique with the propane torch to get the lead out. Whatever you do, don't scratch at the mould with anything harder than aluminum. Use a piece of small diameter wooden dowel rod. Torch the mould gently until the lead melts, then scrape it out with the dowel.

Regards,

Stew

[jonblack]

Guys, I really want to thank you all for taking the time to respond. I can tell from briefly reading each response that there is some good information here. I will take more time to thoroughly read each response and digest the information.

One thing you can be assured of is that I am not discouraged. I like a challenge, and I like learning and collecting tools to accomplish a task.

I will keep you posted on my progress.

Thank you all very much
jonblack

[qajaq59]

Keep at it Jon. It is really worthwhile. Especially at the range when someone make a remark about your cast bullets and then you take the center out of your target with three rounds. That's just soooo much fun. LOL

[Jim_Fleming]

Keep plugging at it Jon, you'll get it... You WON'T find a better gang of thieves than these here rascals that love casting and swaging on this board...

Keep us posted, please, as to your progress...

Next item, sir, where abouts are you located...? Perhaps a wee bit more info on your profile, would be acceptable? Heck you never know, you could possibly live in the same county as one of the worst rascals on here... ME!

:hijack:

[chris in va]

I'm sure the other guys already addressed this, but...

Stick-on WW can be hit or miss. Try and use the clip-on type after you cull the Zn and Fe.

Solid spoon.

135k btu's...holy cow!

Use a different pot for casting and smelting operations.

I didn't see where you cleaned the mold first before using.


Spent a few minutes with a pair of pliers and finally unbolted the mold

I don't think unbolting the mold is a good idea, might mess up the alignment?

Not sure why you couldn't get the lead ingot out of the muffin pan, that's a little strange. All of mine have just taken a slight tap on the floor.

Eventually you'll probably just want to get a bottom pour pot for casting. I tried the ladling thing, never did get the hang of it. It's so much easier just to lift the handle for controlled flow.

[Jim_Fleming]

Agreed Chris, about stick on wheelweights... However, I've had rather good luck with the "linked" weights, if they bend really easily, they're lead, pure lead, that goes into my "swaging lead" and it the don't bend or whatever, they're scrap, to me...

135 K BTU's not all that uncommon, it takes a LOT of heat to keep 3+ gallons of boiling oil up to temperature when you deep fry a turkey... lol!

Jon Black, bear in mind when you're smelting with that single burner, that if you use a 20lb. tank of propane, you are *very likely* going to very nearly empty it with a single smelting... I get two smeltings from cold wheel weights from a 30lb. bottle, period.

Jon, I'm fairly sure that Chris speaks for all of us when he says use a bottom pour pot. It's been my experience that the Lee Production Pot (10lb. Model) works, and keeps working, just like a Glock... LOL! However the fact of the matter is, there are several bottom pouring pots out there. Lee pots also are somewhat less expensive than the other brands, but you judge for yourself.





I'm sure the other guys already addressed this, but...

Stick-on WW can be hit or miss. Try and use the clip-on type after you cull the Zn and Fe.

Solid spoon.

135k btu's...holy cow!

Eventually you'll probably just want to get a bottom pour pot for casting. I tried the ladling thing, never did get the hang of it. It's so much easier just to lift the handle for controlled flow.

[Edubya]

I get two smeltings from cold wheel weights from a 30lb. bottle, period.

Jim, i don't want to hijack this thread but I'd say that you've got a problem with your burner or your supplier. I get many hours of use from my 20#, single burner.
EW

[jonblack]

<snip>

I didn't see where you cleaned the mold first before using.

No, I did not clean the mold first. One of several mistakes.

jonblack

[lwknight]

I did not catch it earlier but , AZ Stew makes a good point and considering that it is a large slug , may require more cooling time. I never casted shotgun slugs so its new to me.
Try letting them cool longer and see if that helps.

[Jim_Fleming]

Ed, I agree, in order to not hijack things, please look for a private message...


Jim, i don't want to hijack this thread but I'd say that you've got a problem with your burner or your supplier. I get many hours of use from my 20#, single burner.
EW

[jonblack]

Fellas, I don't feel like your suggestion to Jim about his propane burner is a thread hijack. I think it points out the potential for a problem in Jim's system that may help anyone who reads this thread.

I do, however, appreciate your taking the time to lend assistance to casters, both new and experienced.

jonblack

[jonblack]

Well, they say laughter is the best medicine...so have a laugh! Here are pics of my work.

http://realworldpracticalshooters.com/ar15/first-time-casting.jpg

My third attempt was the best. I cast from an electric burner and stainless steel 2 qt. pot. I only fluxed once. The biggest problem I am having is I think my mold is messed up from my first attempt at casting. I had to take it apart and clean all kinds of gunk and lead out of it. You can see some "flash" on the slugs where lead is going into a portion of the mold that it is not supposed to. I haven't studied the mold too hard so maybe it can be repaired.

Another problem is I don't have a thermometer. I can tell you, when I fluxed with candle wax the melt did not catch on fire, so I think my temp my still be a little low.

Anyways, I am having fun. It would be nice to drop a perfect one, though!
jonblack

[copdills]

we have no failures, only enlightenment to learning and patience (more heat& a clean mold will go along way)

good luck fellow caster
copdills:drinks:

[qajaq59]

The best thing about casting is all our mistakes go back in the pot. It's not like cutting a piece of expensive maple to the wrong size. LOL

[rbstern]

I'm not looking to start a fight, just wanted to say I too bought the lee 1 oz slug mold. In fact, I just did a casting session yesterday with that brand new mold. I previously used the 7/8 ounce version, it too works well.

Snuffy, I agree 100% with your post. I found the Lee slug molds to be among the easiest to get good results with. No doubt, jonblack is doing something fundamentally wrong with temp, flux, pour, etc. He'll figure it out, and once he does, the process becomes rather simple.

[Doby45]

Your lead and I am sure mold are still too cold. You need a thermometer for sure.

[jonblack]

OK, so I called LEE today and talk to a very helpful guy named Pat. He felt my mold was not closing all the way and told me to put any seize on the vertical and horizontal v-grooves. So, I did that. Tried to get the mold as clean as I could. It is still a little nasty from the first time I used it.

I cast over 75 slugs, and they all have "drips" at the base. Looking at the mold, you can see where the lead can seep past the sides of the base. I have attached some pictures. Can someone with the same mold please compare my photos to their mold and see if my mold is in spec?

I ordered a thermometer, but I am still unsure of temperature until it arrives. I am still having fun, just would like to get some usable slugs sooner or later.

Please take a look at the pics and left me know what you think.

Thanks guys
jonblack

http://www.realworldpracticalshooters.com/ar15/slug-001.jpg
http://www.realworldpracticalshooters.com/ar15/mold-001.jpg

[Jim_Fleming]

Jon, personally I think you've discovered a manufacturer's defect!

No way should that excess space be there! I'd say that they've install the wrong nose punch in that mould. (The proof (in my mind) is in your excellent photos.)

The "cutting shoulder" should be a tad shorter, I can't quite guess how much since your photos are so "close up." Unless there's a way to adjust that nose plug up out of the mould a wee bit...?

Good job in learning to cast properly, so quickly. Those "drips" as you call them are normally called "fins" in the casting world. (I work with Cast Iron Mould Equipment and once in a while we have to deburr them away from the Equipment if the foundry misses them.)

I personally swear by Anti Seize/Never Seize, great stuff! Pat's got the right idea about Never Seize, however, judging from your seams, your mould appears to be closing up just fine.

BTW, Jon, no need to defend me about hijacking the thread, Ed does have a point, but this is YOUR thread, and excessive consumption of propane is a valid point. But that's for another thread altogether... Ok, buddy? :hijack:

[snuffy]

Jon, my 7/8 ounce mold has the same fin on one spot on each slug. I simply trim it off before loading them. It shouldn't do that. No way anything you did caused that. The mold is simply defective. On my new mold the area you have pointed out is tight around the core pin. No space left for the fin to form. I'd call Lee back and ask about a replacement.

On another note, you are still too cool on your lead, and/or mold temps. The key part is not filled out completely. Once you get a thermometer, run your lead about 750 degrees and keep the mold hot by casting as fast as you can. The sprue should take about 5 seconds to freeze and change shades.

I also bought a new 7/8 ounce mold when I ordered the 1 ouncer. I'm gonna switch the pot over to pure lead to make a run of hunting slugs. I'll take some pics and write a report when I do.

[jonblack]

Jim - thanks for the reply. I appreciate your informing me about the fins versus drips. I would have called them fins if they had been were the mold blocks meet, but didn't think about calling them fins on the base.

I agree with you and Pat about the Anti Seize. He said it doesn't matter was lube it was as long as it doesn't burn off at operating temp.

I am guilty of true full-on thread hijacks. I guess I think of threads kind of like an information tree. You have the main branch, which is the OP's question, but then all kind of ideas, asides, and footnotes come to mind. So even though it is my thread, if an idea comes to mind, or if alternative, yet related, help can be given...I say "go for it." So, yes, you are OK in my book Jim.

snuffy - I did trim off some of the fins, but then I thought the mold should be right. Now, whether I ask Lee to replace it or I just buy a new one is to be determined. I still don't have a thermometer so I don't know what temp I am running. I bought an electric hot plate from Harbor Freight and a stainless steel 2 quart pot that fits the element of the hot plate perfectly. The pot came from Target and has a thick encapsulated base, and was $9.99 plus tax. The problem is, I am running the hot plate wide open, so I am not sure if I can get the pure lead any hotter.

The pictures kinda emphasis the non-uniformity of the drive key, but I think the drive key is filling out as best it can. I think there is some lead or other gunk at the bottom of the drive key slot that is keep the lead from filling out that one would expect it to. That gunk would have been from my first time cast. Please don't try to get me to explain how I got so much gunk stuff in the mold. Refer back to the photo from my fist time casting! If you look at the newest pictures again you might notice the drive key is not filled out in the same place on the slugs. That is my theory anyway.

I think I am going to just get a new mold. This one was $20 at Cabela's. I kind of look at it like I spent $20 to learn how not to cast. Sometimes, that is as valuable information as learning from the reverse perspective. I want to know the don'ts as much as I want to know the do's.

Another thing that will help my situation out is to get a bottom pour pot. I am leaning towards the Lee 4 20.

Thanks again guys
jonblack

[jonblack]

The "cutting shoulder" should be a tad shorter, I can't quite guess how much since your photos are so "close up." Unless there's a way to adjust that nose plug up out of the mould a wee bit...?

Jim

I don't think the "centering pin" (I think that is what Pat called it) can be adjusted. The "horizontal v-groove" (another term from Pat) locks into place on the mold blocks and does not allow any perpendicular adjustment.

I had already imagined myself repairing the mold by welding and turning down in a lathe. The problem with that fantasy is that I don't have an aluminum welding rig or a lathe! Ha!

Thanks
jonblack

*EDIT - after reading snuffy's response again, Pat from Lee may have called the "centering pin" the "core pin." Heck, I can't remember. That was yesterday!

[docone31]

From looking at your castings, you ended up where I ended up at.
I switched to mineral spirits to clean my molds.
I fill a plastic cup and set the NEW mold into it for a couple of days. Just the mold part.
After that, I preheat the mold just prior to casting.
When I pour, I use the six second rule. One I made up. It should take the sprue six seconds to freeze. Longer and it is too hot, less time, and it is too cool.
I would send the mold back. It will probably be replaced. Cabelas is real good, and so is Midway and Lee.
So,
Preheat the mold after soaking it. You will only need to do it once.
From there, it should drop castings with ease. I do not smoke my molds after doing the mineral spirits thing. Now they are bare, and heat treated!

[Jim_Fleming]

Jon, listen to Docone...

He's absolutely correct about how very DARN CRITICAL it is to get the mould blocks clean...

I just bought a brand spanking new .40 Cal. 175 gr TL Lee Mould from Midway, when I'm ready to start casting I'll totally degrease the mould etc...

As far as the Core Plug goes, perhaps where the plug attaches to the mould could be reshimmed or something... But perhaps replacing it from the "horse's mouth" might be the best idea... I'd deal direct with Lee Precision if it were me...

Thanks Jon for the moral support, but again, this is a privately owned but very public board... Some folks get pretty upset, (no NOT you) if their thread is redirected from the original topic they started... etc...

Good Luck Jon, and let us know how things turn out...? Please?

[jonblack]

Just wanted to update everyone on my issue with my mold. I sent Lee an email, included the pictures I posted, and Pat from Lee replied back. He said he it looks like the core pin is from the 7/8 oz mold. He said he would send me a 1 oz. core if I felt comfortable putting it in myself. I emailed him back with my address. I hope this solves the issue. I looked at some LEE slugs today at a gun show. A guy was selling bags of 25 for $12. The bases looked much fuller than mine do. Hopefully that is just the difference with the core. I will keep everyone updated.

Thanks
jonblack

[lwknight]

I'm going to start making slugs to sell at gunshows. LOL.

If anything was mentioned about the alloy mix I missed it. I'm wandering if you have added any tin to the mix? A little tin helps the fillout so much and still does not add enough hardness to count.
The consensus of this group is 2% tin and I think 2.5% or aka 40-1 will help a lot.
After you get the 1 oz core that is.

[jonblack]

Just wanted to give everyone an update on my mold. Pat from Lee Precision sent me out a new core pin, which I received today. He felt the one that came in my mold was for the 7/8 oz slug. I think he was right. The new core pin seems to line up with the inside of the mold just fine. I will post pictures as soon as I can.

So, if someone else is having problems with the Lee slug mold and excessive finning on the base, it might be a good idea to make sure the mold was assembled with the correct core pin.

Talk soon
jonblack

[fryboy]

hard to believe that the only difference between 7/8 oz and 1 oz is that lil bit of skirt isnt it ?