Sight Setting for longer ranges

[Thumbcocker]

When shooting an iron sighted handgun at ranges of 100 yards or more do you adjust your sights or use the Elmer front sight hold up method?

When I go to the range I usually try a few 100 yard shots from sitting with by back against the front of a bench and my knees drawn up. I don't change my sight setting. I was wondering what others do.

Thanks

[TCLouis]

I used to work at a range where I loved to do exactly what you are talking about. We built a range beside the one I used and the barrow activity left many targets of opportunity starting at 150 and extending out to about 250.

What amazes me is how the brain can estimate holdover and the more one does it the better they become.

I sat with my back against a post, knees up and arms resting on my knees.

If one could do that every week, they could get pretty dang good!

It does take an accurate load and gun to make it all work!

Unfortunately an error on my part made that gun a non shooter, but no injuries were incurred so I am LUCKY. That SBH would shoot though, even better than my SRH.

[Johnch]

I used to have acess to a range set up for IHMSA
With the Ram at 200 meters

I quickly figured out to hold about the top of the back stop
And I could then put a full mag out of the 45 ACP into a decent group on the ram if I did my part

As TCLouis said , after a while
You just know how far to hold over

John

[Dale53]

I used to have access to a couple of ranges for long hand gun range - one was 100, 200, and 300 yards and the other was 100 and 200 yards. My most effective way was to find a particular spot to hold on above the target - I got my most consistent results from doing it that way.

On the other hand, you CAN learn to hold over by "guesstimating" the holdover with lots of practice (and a good handgun and good load).

Of course, the silhouette boys and gals use specific sight settings to secure their almost unbelievable results.

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

I do it like elmer. Most of my sixguns i use for long range are fitted wtih at least one reference bar on the blade.

[Changeling]

I do it like elmer. Most of my sixguns i use for long range are fitted wtih at least one reference bar on the blade.

Did you make your own reference bar, please explain if you have the time.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive done it by filing a notch and then painting it but it doesnt look real profesional. Most of my front sight blades were bought from clements and linebaugh.

[mroliver77]

I use the EK method and it works well for me. I do not have reference points but am not bad at how much front sight to use. One does not always have something to aim at above the target of opportunity. One of these days I will try my hand at filing a groove and fitting some pewter in it.
Jay

[ole 5 hole group]

I guess either method is just fine. Having a reference point on your front sight for a particular distance using a particular load is fine for most I guess but when I tried it many decades ago I found it awkward, as the top of the front sight to me” just has to be” aligned across the top of the rear sight blade and when it isn’t, my pee brain has a hard time compensating on a moving target. I was taught to shoot with both eyes open and have developed a “feel” for how much hold-over I need on different moving targets at various distances. Being half-assed accurate when shooting at anything moving or stationary for that matter, at distances ranging from 100 to 400 yards is just a matter of having a good set-up revolver, a lot of trigger time and some luck. Shooting from a supported position makes life easier but if you’re in the field you normally have to occupy the high ground in order to shoot from the sitting or prone position, as the grass/weeds/brush seem to give the little critters good cover. As kids, 50 to 60 years ago, we could walk across farmer’s fields and woodlands all day long and shoot whatever ammo we had loaded up at anything that walked, flew or crawled and over time we got to be pretty good at scaring hell out of the local population of stripped gophers, pocket gophers, badgers, fox, coyote, crows, blackbirds, snakes, skunks etc. – Seems like those experiences/skills stay with a fellow over the years, meaning, we have a general idea of what we’re doing but today we just depend on luck a little more than we use to. It’s just a shame that those times are gone and youngsters today don’t have those opportunities. 50 rounds of reloaded 38 special I think cost around $0.15, so I could mow 2 lawns @ $0.25 per lawn (big lawns too!) and have enough money to reload 150 rounds and purchase a double dipper. The ammo would usually last a day of walkabout or a half day at the gravel pit. As a young man shooting competitive 2700 matches, I think we reloaded both 38 Special and 45 ACP for half a penny a shot (free lead & casings of course)– shooting 22lr was the expensive round. Times have changed.

[Thumbcocker]

So what size target could a person reasonably expect to hit at 100 yards with an iron sighted revolver and decent ammunition?

[pmeisel]

I used to keep six out of six on a paper pie plate at 90 yards, six out of six in that circle (prolly 6 or 7 inches in diameter I guess) was my test for how far I'd be comfortable shooting at a deer.

Haven't tested at that range in awhile, I haven't taken a revolver hunting in a few years. Maybe this year.

[44man]

When I had good vision I used Elmer's bars on the front sight. I would use tape to find a setting then inlay silver wire into the blade at the proper places.
Now with the red dot I don't want to change my deer settings so I have to aim at a branch in a tree about 26' or 30' over the steel at 500 meters. Height is only a guess but you can walk into the steel if you have a spotter.
No scope or red dot has enough adjustment anyway once you get so far out. Open sights need a lot of barrel above the rear sight too.
It is a lot of fun and I feel sorry for the guys trapped in the city with a 25 yard range. Some indoor ranges are shorter yet. 100 yard outdoor ranges are in short supply. Then some do not allow you to go on the rifle range so you are restricted to the pistol range. :veryconfu

[Frank]

It's harder to shoot at 100 yds with a scope or red dot than an iron-sighted handgun at 25 yds. If you can't get it to group at 100 yds with a scope or red dot, take off the tube and shoot open sights at 25 yds. You'll suddenly discover you have a shooter, and a load. Instant success.

[Changeling]

Thats really interesting Frank, why do you think that is? I had a scope (Leupold +) on my 44mag, but just plain hated it. I know some people like them but I didn't. No experience with dot scopes on anything but a Rem 870 pump for brush work, VERY quick.

[Frank]

Because more things have to happen right to do well at 100 yds than 25 yds. It's not just a matter of front sight elevation. If you have a gun that shoots good at 25 yds and you want to move out further, you need to at least try your combination at 50 yds before you contemplate further. Many with even custom revolvers will be disappointed and have to move closer. Maybe the reason was the barrel was too short, too much muzzle flip for them. Or it was built too light, they wanted a packing gun, but that gun had them packing. Then there's the load, twist, boolit, technique, wind, all go into consideration at longer range. A good group at 25 yds means nothing at longer range. It will probably fail.

[Mk42gunner]

So what size target could a person reasonably expect to hit at 100 yards with an iron sighted revolver and decent ammunition?

Gallon jugs are easy, with enough practice you can make a quart oil can very nervous.

I personally like the hold the front sight up method.


Robert

[ole 5 hole group]

To answer your question Thumbcocker, if your practice long enough at that range and shoot from support you may be able to keep 90% of your shots within 6” but if you don’t put in that kind of time on the range consider a 5-shot group within an 18” circle a pretty fair group IMHO.

That’s a little confusing to me Frank but being confused is fairly common for me. I usually find that if a load shoots very well at 25 yards it’ll shoot well at 100 yards if I do my part – and that’s the problem, doing my part. When that front sight moves just a tish left or right at 25 yards you can still manage a decent group but at 100 yards that slight movement will make the group look pretty bad, sometimes downright disgusting. A week or so ago I found a couple decent loads for my 500 Smith and didn’t have a problem shooting under 3” at 100 yards rested & scoped. When I took the scope off and re-sighted with the irons, I could raise hell with the target at 25 yards offhand but could only put 2 rounds within 3” of each other at 100 yards (and those holes weren’t that close to what I was aiming at!) while the other 3 rounds were on the target but scattered – awful lookin group if you even want to call it a group. Back in the day I use to do a little better but if you don’t put a lot of rounds downrange every week – 100 & 200 yard accurate shooting isn’t possible for most. Now hitting a man sized target at 100 yards isn’t a big feat but putting all 5 rounds into the center mass area is – same with a deer, putting a round into a deer broadside at 100 yards isn’t all that difficult but placing the round into the middle area of the front shoulder is rather difficult. If a person can keep all his bullets within a 7” group/gallon jug at 100 yards all day long shooting iron sights off-hand – that’s awful good lethal shooting and they have put in the necessary trigger time to accomplish that feat. Now if a guy can hit the jug every now & then – well, that’s pretty good shooting too, but nowhere near as well as those who are able to hit their mark 90% of the time at that range. At my age, my ole eyes are the main problem today, as is the loss of arm strength for holding that hogleg at arm’s length for more than 5 or 6 seconds at a time. I will get a red-dot sometime this summer just to see if I can shoot a little better off-hand – I would think one should be able to shoot considerably better groups, as sight alignment is removed from the equation, and that to me is the most important element of accurate shooting with iron sights. What say you Frank?

[Thumbcocker]

Went out yesterday with my Bisleyfied .44 special flat top using Keiths with 7.0 of Unique. I hit a 3 quart detergent jug 1 out six off hand and two out of six sitting backrested. Most of my shots group in a cantelope sized area. I seldom hit soda cans but can throw dirt on them fairly regularly. A spotter helps a lot. I was using the Elmer method. Most misses were to one side or the other so I think I have a pretty good idea of how much sight to hold up.

Good exercise to gain a little humility.

[Frank]

ole 5 hole group said
That’s a little confusing to me Frank but being confused is fairly common for me. I usually find that if a load shoots very well at 25 yards it’ll shoot well at 100 yards if I do my part – and that’s the problem, doing my part.
My tests indicate there are many "good" loads at 25 yds, but some don't even make the paper at 50 yds. So what is happening? My guess is twist and spin. It's harder to find the right load at 100 yds than at 25 yds. They all shoot good at 25.

ole 5 hole group said
I will get a red-dot sometime this summer just to see if I can shoot a little better off-hand – I would think one should be able to shoot considerably better groups, as sight alignment is removed from the equation, and that to me is the most important element of accurate shooting with iron sights. What say you Frank?
I think some people are afraid to find out how lousy their custom shoots at longer range. That's why they don't want to put a tube on it to find out. But they shouldn't make fun of someone with a tube because that person is proving how well the gun shoots at 100 yds. He doesn't hang his hat on sight alignment for not taking it out farther. Or they say they need it to pack. They then say long barrels don't do it for me. But you'll never see a side by side comparison shooting. Thus, I ask where are your targets? Then they get mad and say BS when you show them yours. Or that you are stirring the pot or some other diversionary tactic to get away from some weakness, either on their part or the gun.

[Changeling]

ole 5 hole group said
My tests indicate there are many "good" loads at 25 yds, but some don't even make the paper at 50 yds. So what is happening? My guess is twist and spin. It's harder to find the right load at 100 yds than at 25 yds. They all shoot good at 25.

ole 5 hole group said
I think some people are afraid to find out how lousy their custom shoots at longer range. That's why they don't want to put a tube on it to find out. But they shouldn't make fun of someone with a tube because that person is proving how well the gun shoots at 100 yds. He doesn't hang his hat on sight alignment for not taking it out farther. Or they say they need it to pack. They then say long barrels don't do it for me. But you'll never see a side by side comparison shooting. Thus, I ask where are your targets? Then they get mad and say BS when you show them yours. Or that you are stirring the pot or some other diversionary tactic to get away from some weakness, either on their part or the gun.

Hi Frank, it works the same with target shooting with rifles (J bullets), just on a smaller scale. I have worked up loads with my 6 mm rifles (custom barrels) using Target bullets like Sierra, Lapua, etc, at 100 yards that were Awesome! Fire at 3 to 500 and the accuracy just falls apart.
Then I have had loads/bullets that were great at the 3 to 500 yd range and further be only mediocre at 100 yd. My opinion of this was some bullets just "didn't settle down till after 100 yd. and some just weren't worth a dam, for target shooting in my rifle, seems odd, but thats the way it go's.

I have no doubt the same condition could probably exist with revolvers on a larger scale, along with a few hundred other things that can possibly go wrong.

[ole 5 hole group]

I’m not expert by a long shot and can only relate my experiences with my firearms. I think you’re right Frank, as to matching the twist rate with velocity of a certain weight boolit, but with few exceptions, I’ve found that once you find a load that groups at or under a half inch at 25 yards that same load does well at 100 yards and further out as well – not to say that you can’t tweak it a little at the 100 yard mark. I think if you’re talking about 2 or 3 inch groups or slightly smaller at 25 yards – ya, those are decent groups and I know some will open up unbelievably at 50 yards but my experience is that bug holes at 25 yards are normally good loads to as far as you can shoot. The problem seems twofold – being able to hold that well & finding that load. I appreciate the broadside you gave to the “customs” – there again, seems like there’s two types of individuals purchasing “customs” – them being competitive shooters who want everything that a certain pistolsmith can give them to compete at the highest level and those that just want to own a “unique” revolver, not necessarily for shooting small groups at 100 yards and mainly possesses it for pride of ownership and may even turn it into a safe queen. Both are excellent reasons for purchasing but due to my financial situation I could only justify the former but do own a couple “customs” just to satisfy my curiosity as to what all the fuss was about and what I found is my money could have been better spent but I have them and will pass them on. A man’s a fool to make fun of another shooter regardless of how he’s shooting his revolver, as there’s always something to be learned from any method of shooting. I know the load for my Smith will probably shoot better than 3” but I’m fairly new to shooting a revolver with a scope and when I set the power to 8X that X-hair was dancing a jig around my aiming point – looked a lot better at 4X. Never had 5 shots with the same sight picture but I was able to get the X-hair to shake less with a certain grip and the groups tighten up to 2.5 to 3 inches and were repeatable but I would like to see what it could do with a dead on hold like those shot from a rifle on a benchrest. I don’t have access to a ransom rest, so I’ll probably never really know but what I do know is that the 500 with that load can shoot, so any misses at any range is my mishandling of the revolver. There are a lot of people out there that can’t shoot a long barreled revolver - but it’s normally because they don’t possess the arm strength – not because of the revolver being inaccurate. If a man can shot a long barrel revolver well, he can probably shoot the shorter barrels about as good (the longer sight radius normally results in a little tighter group for most) but it’s usually a little different the other way around unless the guy is in good shape. As for showing targets – as long as the person is honorable – there’s no problem and he should take a few pictures for others to see. For those that call BS to everything and refuse to take pictures – well, maybe they mistrust others because they themselves aren’t trustworthy and I doubt some of them could hit a bull in the ass with a handful of flax at 5 feet – just my opinion of course.

Thumbcocker, that’s some good shooting and that particular load combination appears to like your revolver.

Changeling – I shot competitive benchrest for a number of years shooting the 6PPC and the 6BR – used the 308 for the Hunter matches. Used basically the same load for 100 to 300 yards. Sometimes you had to add a half grain or so more powder in the morning and then take that and sometimes a little more off in the afternoon if the temperatures went over 90*. Used nothing but Sierra matchkings for the 308 while I and most everyone else used “custom” made bullets for our “custom” barrels & rifles in the 6MM’s. Nowadays I guess even the 308 bullet’s are custom made for these matches. Matching twist rate to bullet weight and velocity was critical but so was the torque of the action in the stock, the recoil lug placement on the barrel and its relationship to the stock. Then you got case preparation and that’s a whole chapter in itself. Gun handling is unbelievably critical in long range shooting when you’re trying to put 5 bullets in the same hole – once that is all figured out in a 100 yard indoor range – then you get the opportunity to take it outdoors and shoot it with wind & mirage. Most of us possessed the right combination of rifle/case/bullet/load to shoot 0.070/0.080 inch groups at 100 yards indoors – very few could shoot 0.099” in a match – even a midnight match at that – best I even done was 0.102 and I paid $5 on a challenge to see if a re-measurement would put it under a 0.100” for the screamer patch – lost my $5.00. A lot of matches at 100 yards are won with groups right around the 0.200” mark – depending upon the wind – groups can get fairly large at the 300 yard mark but some of the good wind dopers can do well compared to fair weather shooters. Getting out there to 600 and 1,000 yards usually takes “custom” equipment all the way for those small groups but there’s always somebody that comes along marching to a different tune. Here’s an article by one such guy- a ND guy at that.
http://www.6mmbr.com/schatz1000.html
Here’s more of a conventional thinker http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek060.html
A site for those with an interest http://6mmbr.websitetoolbox.com/

Takes a lot of practice & dedication to pee in the tall grass with the big dogs, but if one possesses the will and can spare the time & money they can walk the walk.

[Changeling]

Thank you for the advice, I wasn't willing to go that extra mile for what many felt they had to do and few ever felt the glory of trying. The dedication it took became evident early on and I was against putting my heart and soul into it. That doesn't mean I didn't understand the sport, it means I wasn't willing to give what it takes from one for the return, My Decision.

I am a hunter, plain and simple, that is where my heart has always been and where I will eventually die with my cherished memories that not many people will ever understand. That does not mean I am ignorant/stupid/or in any way apologizing for what I do or who I am! It's just me!

Take care,and thanks for sharing. Changeling.

[7br]

Whatcher shootin fer? Basically, if you are target shooting, changing the sights make the most sense. If you are getting ready for deer hunting, I would suggest suggest sighting the pistol in about 5 inches high at 50 yards. Hold on the bottom of the chest at the closer ranges and hold on the middle of the deer at longer ranges. As far as open sighted groups, I can get about a 10 inch group off from creedmore if I am very patient and hold my concentration and have my sights adjusted correctly.

[AzShooter]

I use the hold over method. At one range we have a gong at 350 yards. Last time out I hit it 6 for 6 standing, two hand hold. LUCKY.

[HeavyMetal]

I have the bar system set on my 29. Blued sight blade filed a sliver line with a very fine file hold over as suggested by Kieth's writings and some amazing shooting can be done!

Wind doping is the major hurdle with long range shoting don't care if it's rifle or pistol wind is more of a problem than elevation!

[Frank]

Heavy Lead said
some amazing shooting can be done!

So how does it do?

[44man]

Whatcher shootin fer? Basically, if you are target shooting, changing the sights make the most sense. If you are getting ready for deer hunting, I would suggest suggest sighting the pistol in about 5 inches high at 50 yards. Hold on the bottom of the chest at the closer ranges and hold on the middle of the deer at longer ranges. As far as open sighted groups, I can get about a 10 inch group off from creedmore if I am very patient and hold my concentration and have my sights adjusted correctly.
That is way too high for deer. 1" at fifty will do for a little over 100 with any revolver.
Single shots used from a rest at longer ranges should be treated like a rifle but since drop is less, hold over is easier or just adjust the sight for the range.

[44man]

Heavy Lead said
So how does it do?
It does very well but you need good vision. When you stack the front sight high, the light gap between the front and rear sight can't be seen.
Then when barrel also needs to be seen under the front sight for real long range, there is no light gap.
Hold over with both eyes is still a problem and the red dot is best for that.
Face facts, hitting small targets at long range is not easy for anyone.
I once put 4 out of 5 shots with my .475 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards by setting the bottom of the red dot at a certain spot on top of the 500 meter berm. You will never, ever do that with open sights by sticking up the front sight. If you aim at an exact spot above the target, then you can hit.
Open sights do not have enough adjustment for long ranges and neither do scopes or red dots unless you use a tapered base that makes the gun useless at close ranges.
Yet, some long range shots can be done and it is a lot of fun to make rifle shooters blush in shame.
Go out and do it, forget the 25 yard **** and you might be amazed.

[MtGun44]

As far as 'what can you hit at 100yds?' -- of course it depends on the gun, ammo and shooter.

I can regularly make a 4" group at 100 yds with several revolvers and could do it years ago with
an Automag - all this is open sights. Getting a bit harder, 59 yr old eyes, ya know.

In any case - it is pretty easy to hit an 18" round gong at 200 yds, standing with a box stock
1911 in .45 ACP once you figure how much front sight to hold up. I use the EK method and
have done some real interesting shots.

A friend handed me a .41 mag S&W 6" blue many years ago and told me to try on the steel
IPSC silhouette target at 300 yds. He called my shots from back rested sitting, Keith type
position. I hit it on the 4th shot, rang it with 5th and 6th, too. I forget how much front sight,
I think most of it, but once you had the range and windage, look out. You would NOT want
to stand out there.

Bill

[piece]

These 6 shots was shoot this weekend with a 686-3 with 8 3/8" barrel at 160meter
Std front blade an LPA rear sight. Laying with support behind my back and the gun between my knees. I do not do any adjustments to sights, I just hold a bit low or high in the target.

[44man]

These 6 shots was shoot this weekend with a 686-3 with 8 3/8" barrel at 160meter
Std front blade an LPA rear sight. Laying with support behind my back and the gun between my knees. I do not do any adjustments to sights, I just hold a bit low or high in the target.
Now that is what I like to see. Great shooting! [smilie=w:

[MtGun44]

Awesome group! What is an LPA rear sight?

Bill

[ole 5 hole group]

I think this is what he's referring to. They're an Italian company.
http://www.lpasights.com/catalogTXT.html

[AzShooter]

What load were you using?

Excellent shooting. I can't even see that target at 100 yards. I'd be happy with groups like that at 25. I'm still trying to work up a load for my 686.

[piece]

That is a correct link to the LPA rear sight that I'll use. I like them very much.

The load used is Starline brass with Fed SP Mag primer, boolit is Saeco #393 SWCGC 162gr witch casts at 156gr for me and is sized to .358. For powder I use VV N-110 15,6gr.

[7br]

That is way too high for deer. 1" at fifty will do for a little over 100 with any revolver.
Single shots used from a rest at longer ranges should be treated like a rifle but since drop is less, hold over is easier or just adjust the sight for the range.

My thoughts are to hold where the back of the leg meets the belly line. That should put the bullet in the boiler room out to about 75 yards. Any ranges farther than that are really iffy for me.

Another thing that should be noted. If you change positions, IE go from sitting to standing to leaning against a tree, your grip will change and so will your point of impact. Practice in all positions you thing you might be shooting from.