Bullet options other than keith?

[Changeling]

I am really interested in my options (Accuracy) for bullets other than the Keith style (45 LC), I now have 2 Keith style molds and would like some input into the manufacturers of really great molds (Large Flat nose) other than the Keith style, such as LBT, others, I don't know of? Please, no tumble lube bullets/ideas.

Thanks to all that care to contribute.

[jh45gun]

What ya got against tumble lube bullets? Some of them work very well and are kinda like a Lovern (SP) design with multiple grooves that hold lube well even when you do not tumble lube.

[MtGun44]

Some folks swear by the TL designs, some swear at them. I'll not bother with them
myself any more. I really dislike the liq alox material and do not like the lube on the
nose and base of the boolit, besides the large number of folks here with problems with
them, often cured by moving to the same design but with a conventional lube groove.

I have several LBT molds and find the quality of the molds to be excellent. Good designs,
but nothing spectacular for me so far, I have not totally exhaustively tested them yet.
I have a .45 cal 255gr LBT that is a decent boolit but nothing special. Works in some
calibers and some guns not so well in others. It does very well in a particular pistol
in .45 LC, but poorly in a different gun, same caliber. Hard to make generalizations
from my somewhat limited experience. Nothing but praise for the molds tho.

Bill

[missionary5155]

Greetings I rather like the Lee 265 gr RNFP in my 45 Colt Ruger and Rossi carbine. 17-18 grains 2400 in the Ruger and 19 grains in the Rossi make a nice combination.

[jh45gun]

Some folks swear by the TL designs, some swear at them. I'll not bother with them
myself any more. I really dislike the liq alox material and do not like the lube on the
nose and base of the boolit, besides the large number of folks here with problems with
them, often cured by moving to the same design but with a conventional lube groove.

I have several LBT molds and find the quality of the molds to be excellent. Good designs,
but nothing spectacular for me so far, I have not totally exhaustively tested them yet.
I have a .45 cal 255gr LBT that is a decent boolit but nothing special. Works in some
calibers and some guns not so well in others. It does very well in a particular pistol
in .45 LC, but poorly in a different gun, same caliber. Hard to make generalizations
from my somewhat limited experience. Nothing but praise for the molds tho.

Bill

Haven't others also lubed them conventionally? Why I was asking him that is because he seems to have lots of questions about loads and casting and I was wondering if that is his personal opinion after trying such bullets or because he read negative things somewhere?

[Changeling]

Haven't others also lubed them conventionally? Why I was asking him that is because he seems to have lots of questions about loads and casting and I was wondering if that is his personal opinion after trying such bullets or because he read negative things somewhere?

To answer your question, it is because I read negative answers EVERYWHERE from very knowledgeable people in my opinion. I made a statement, that should be enough for you. I do not want tumble lube/design bullets. I wasn't going to answer you but you seem insistent. So now you have an answer. If you want more information on TL stuff just post a question of your own.

[Changeling]

Some folks swear by the TL designs, some swear at them. I'll not bother with them
myself any more. I really dislike the liq alox material and do not like the lube on the
nose and base of the boolit, besides the large number of folks here with problems with
them, often cured by moving to the same design but with a conventional lube groove.

I have several LBT molds and find the quality of the molds to be excellent. Good designs,
but nothing spectacular for me so far, I have not totally exhaustively tested them yet.
I have a .45 cal 255gr LBT that is a decent boolit but nothing special. Works in some
calibers and some guns not so well in others. It does very well in a particular pistol
in .45 LC, but poorly in a different gun, same caliber. Hard to make generalizations
from my somewhat limited experience. Nothing but praise for the molds tho.

Bill

Hi Bill, thanks for the reply, people seem to be really put off by this question, no idea why!

Anyway, I would really appreciate it if you could elaborate on the .45 cal LBT 255gr bullet. Was it a WFN or what nose form? What was basically your dissatisfaction with it?

[jh45gun]

To answer your question, it is because I read negative answers EVERYWHERE from very knowledgeable people in my opinion. I made a statement, that should be enough for you. I do not want tumble lube/design bullets. I wasn't going to answer you but you seem insistent. So now you have an answer. If you want more information on TL stuff just post a question of your own.


Ever hear the expression go pee up a rope? I have never been uncivil to you until now and it is because you explode when folks question you just trying to get a clearer picture. You have gone off the handle before here at others and at one time said you would never post again. Yea I remember that as it was not that long ago. All I asked was why you do not care for tumble lube bullets. The rest of the conversation was directed at mgun44. Grow up all the folks here try to help you and you go off the deep end.

[RobS]

Well, I agree that Veral at LBT makes great molds and with that I had him cut me a LFN 45 cal bullet that weighed in at 283 grains lubed and ready to go. The bullets shot well with my 454 Casull Super Redhawk revolver. This design took the place of the RCBS 45-270-SAA (a similar bullet in weight at 282 grains lubed and ready to go) as I had tighter groups with the bullet.

Now here is the interesting part. The original forcing cone in the SRH revolver was either a 5 degree or 7-8 degree cone from my research. Never the less I re-cut my forcing cone to a 11 degrees as it wasn't the smoothest cut from the factory in a few areas and because I figured a 11 degree cone could actually be a bit better for shooting cast. After the cone re-cut the LBT LFN bullet shot as well as it did before, but for the heck of things and my curiosity of shooting I had to take a step back.

Knowing that many match shooters re-cut their forcing cones in their revolvers to 11 degrees I asked myself what bullet design do they mostly shoot????.........wadcutters and semi-wad cutters of course. Well I just so happened to have had 50-60 of the 45-270-saa bullets left over just laying downstairs which was just enough to make a good comparison. Before the forcing cone was re-cut I was routinely getting 1 1/2"-2" groups with the LBT and 2"-2 1/2" groups with the Keith style RCBS bullet design. I would occasionally have better groups from each design but on average it is as it is as I am not the best hand gunner out there.

After the 11 degree forcing cone: The 45-270-SAA bullets shot groups that were consistently 1" to 1 1/2" groups on three different range sessions while I stayed steady at 1 1/2" to 2" with the LBT LFN. I shot both bullets side by side and at comparable velocities etc. The first session I started with the LBTs and then the Keiths; the second session the Keiths and then the LBTs; and the final session I shot the LBTs then the Keiths, rested about 15 minutes and then went back at it with the Keiths followed by the LBTs. There were the occasional blown groups due to my inabilities and I knew it too, but I found the Keith bullet to give me consistently tighter groups vs the LBTs.

There was a noticeable difference between the two designs from my experiences. I shot these at around 13 to 15 BHN and pushed them with 10 grains of Herco for 980 fps and then again with a bit over 11 grains of Herco for 1050 fps.

I know you asked about other mold makers and options other than a Keith design, but wanted to give you some experiences. Mountain Molds will cut you about anything you want and does a great job. I currently have a MM LFN GC design that shoots very well. Veral at LBT has the LFN and WFN section covered well. BRP or BABore here on the forum as a nice selection of bullets with many of them designed by 45 2.1 a forum member here as well. Bruce of BRP does very nice work and has great customer service. NEI..........has a nice selection, but as for the person behind the machine cutting the molds??? Whoever it is has not been up to par lately. I don't know if they have found another machinist or not but if they have and he or she is good they have a good catalog list of bullet designs that will work well for many purposes. There is also the designs coined Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets and here is a the link to this series of bullets:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=48098

There's probably more out there, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.

[44man]

Everyone knows the groups I get with RNFP, LBT WLN and WFN type boolits. I can never match them with a Keith past 25 yards in any caliber. My .44 is cut to 11* but all the other revolvers are as they came from the factory.
One of the reasons I never test at less then 50 yards because I CAN make a Keith shoot good at 25.
As to tumble lube boolits, some are super accurate if lubed with Felix and not sized. I run mine through a larger Lee die to remove excess lube and don't worry about some left on the nose, I just wipe the base across a rag. I really like the RD 265 for the .44 but I do not have one like it for the .45.
Lee does not make a good TL boolit for the .45 but the 452-255-RF and the C452-300-RF both shoot great. These would be a good start without a lot of expense. Neither are TL.
Lee does have some boolit designs that shoot super while others are a waste.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I have 3 SWC for .45 Colt, the Lee 310 gr wide flat which shoots on par with the SWCs for me, but the tightest grouper is my 454190 round nose with tiny meplat, 250 gr. I wouldn't pick it for critter killing, though it would work, but it does get me better groups at 50 yds than the SWCs.

My second favorite is 454424.

I'll be watching this thread and see what else pops up.

[BoolitBill]

So far I have gotten good accuracy with Lyman's 454190 and with Lyman's 452664. The 452664 has a larger meplat and is what I would use for hunting, but it does have a small bevel on the base. I don't like the bevel when sizing as it leaves a small ring of lube on the base and I have to wipe it off, but the accuracy is good so I put up with it.

[44man]

To answer your question, it is because I read negative answers EVERYWHERE from very knowledgeable people in my opinion. I made a statement, that should be enough for you. I do not want tumble lube/design bullets. I wasn't going to answer you but you seem insistent. So now you have an answer. If you want more information on TL stuff just post a question of your own.
Don't get up tight. TL boolits CAN shoot with the right lube. You know how much I hate LLA too. Most troubles are because of the lube, not the boolit. Just that Lee does not make a good design with TL grooves in the .45. If they made the right boolit with TL grooves, I could make it shoot.
Overall boolit design is more important then what GG's it has.
This has been causing a million opinions for more years then I can count. Round bottom, square bottom, spaced just so, thick bottom band, thick top band and on and on. So much junk!
I cut a cherry on the lathe and put a GG where it looks good and the next is not spaced exact. Then I shoot under 1" at 100 yards with an ugly boolit.
I draw designs on paper and measure on the steel like a nut but never does one match the drawing. I see all the boolit designs posted with exact angles and perfect measurements, even nose angles swung from some place in space. :groner:
I use a file to make the nose shape and nothing I do can duplicate the extensive drawing. But my boolits all shoot!
I also do not believe the forcing cone angle has anything to do with accuracy, at least I can't prove it. The boolit is where it is at, not GG's, but the match to the twist and the nose shape.
I am simple, lazy, easy going and math drives me nuts but dog gone it, I make a revolver shoot without pages and pages of stupid stuff.
Know what my secret is? I don't believe ANYTHING I read unless I can prove it for myself.
I make a mold, cast a pile of boolits, work a load at 50 yards and then shoot 5 shots in a ragged hole at 100. Can I tell you what I did???? Heck no, I have no idea and I am not going to tell you I have so much weight to the rear and so much to the front and the boolit wobble is such and such with boolit balance such and such. I will not say I needed square GG's or round bottom ones.
Get real guys, too much means nothing.
If a boolit will not shoot, it will not shoot. Get rid of it. It takes me one shooting session to determine if the mold is torn apart for parts or if it stays.
I will say only one thing. With all the hand work it takes to make a cherry, I will never, ever make one for a Keith boolit.

[Bass Ackward]

Can I tell you what I did???? Heck no, I have no idea and I am not going to tell you I have so much weight to the rear and so much to the front and the boolit wobble is such and such with boolit balance such and such.



I can. Because I understand you. Problem is you don't understand me. You'll just have to read on for a minute. :grin:

If a fella takes a 4 wheeled platform that "HE" calls a car and puts a jet engine on it and goes out to Bonneville and goes 700+ MPH and almost nobody saw him do it. Then this same fella turns on the TV and watches these ordinary looking cars running 200 MPH going round and round in circles and gets frustrated, throws his beer at the TV and says, you idiots are crazy and don't know how to build a fast car and all those thousands are paying good money to watch it.

Is their car as fast as yours (your idea of what a car should be) in a straight line? No. Can yours run the circles and beat them? No. Each has it's own skill set.

You take a handgun that weights like a rifle, (i am not even going to mention glass) put a rifle weight (better BC) bullet in it, hardened it like a rifle bullet, run it up to rifle like velocity to produce rifle like RPMs, and you will get rifle like stabilization and accuracy when the bullet reached it's zenith for holding the rifling and launching well. (This zenith you refer to by the way as matching twist rate)

What do the rest of the worlds handgunners do that want handguns with handgun calibers and power levels to perform while they are actually at handgun velocity and RPM levels? :grin:

That's where you have to know a little bit more than simply spin it faster. Just like the guys with the cars that want to go some direction other than straight.

Because of air, we have to spin. The faster that we can run and spin something, the more accurate we can make something up until the point that it can no longer hold and launch well. And the faster we can spin it, the farther it will be accurate without going wild. The more aerodynamic we make it, the longer it takes to lose velocity to where it demands to be spun faster. There is no secret here. If we CAN'T run it up, then we better learn how to make what we got fly acceptably. And that is what you read and throw the beer at the monitor for. :grin:

There aren't that many handgun platforms sold that are practical to achieve those goals that are packable or guys who would select that platform when they can have point of aim and point of impact be the same thing while handling recoil better. (a rifle) And that is what you are fighting. You have your own requirements which are fairly simple. And we are forced to stabilize to your standards with less velocity, less bullet weight, and less RPMS.

[44man]

Nope Bass, things still work across the board. Pick the proper boolit for what you want to do with the gun you have and it will shoot slow but might not like speed. Another boolit size might shoot best fast but not slow.
I do not try to shoot a heavy boolit 800 fps but I have boolits that will shoot that slow.
I actually have two problems to solve for each boolit. I want the best accuracy plus the most affect on game in one package. If I just want a boolit to shoot and not hunt with it, it gets a lot easier because then I don't need to worry about the meplat or shooting it too fast or slow. Boolit selection jumps way up and so do the loads and powders.
I feel the best velocity for deer with a heavy boolit is between 1200 and 1350 fps so I am actually caught in a little trap there.
Not so when you just want a boolit to shoot and have fun with. The world of boolits opens wider but the exact same principals still apply. You still need a boolit that engages the forcing cone and rifling straight and spins proper at the velocity you want to shoot whether it is 800 or 1400 fps.
I designed a little .44 boolit long ago that shoots great at all kinds of velocities from cat sneeze to hot but I would never shoot a deer with it. Not even with my funny hat on! :kidding: The nose is bore size, not under size like a Keith.

[44man]

Anyway fellas, some think I have it easier and that is not so. I have to tread a narrow path because I am a hunter first.
But I still shoot a lot for fun and accuracy requirements are still met even if I want to watch the boolits fly down range.
The most fun we had was watching every .44 boolit go like slow motion at a knot on a tree at 150 yards. I could not quit and shot 100 times at it until the whole knot was gone.
Please don't think I only shoot heavy boolits fast, it is not so.

[Bass Ackward]

Pick the proper boolit for what you want to do with the gun you have and it will shoot slow but might not like speed. Another boolit size might shoot best fast but not slow.


Well OK then. That's much better than:

" Round bottom, square bottom, spaced just so, thick bottom band, thick top band and on and on. So much junk!

It's that junk that is doing that for you, huh?


(I thought the image of you throwing a beer at the monitor was kinda funny. Should have mentioned about your hat getting all turned around in the process.)(senility)


One point that you might have missed. That "little" bullet as you call it will kill a deer just as fast as one of yours. (BIG meplat) You just have to drive it faster to get the smaller meplat to cut the same size hole. But cut the same size hole it will. Now that may take another launching platform to do that, but it can be done.

[451whitworth]

i have three LBT moulds for the 45 Colt. 1) 320gr. GC LFN, 2) 280gr. PB LFN, 3) LBT's Keith 250gr. These are used in a Colt Anaconda and a Ruger Bisley. The most accurate by a small margin is the 320gr. in both guns. I mainly shoot the 280gr. bullets @1050 fps out of both.

[45 2.1]

Take a look at the 453640 PB here:
http://www.brp.castpics.net/P2.html

Several members here have tried it and it has worked very well for them.........even Lloyd Smale likes it. :shock:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=66230
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=83174

[44man]

Well OK then. That's much better than:

" Round bottom, square bottom, spaced just so, thick bottom band, thick top band and on and on. So much junk!

It's that junk that is doing that for you, huh?
No, it is drive band length for the twist first, nose engagement next. I made some darn funny boolits over the years that shoot while others were not so good so I tear down the molds for parts. Yes, I have made some bad boolits and I never know until I shoot them.
Just like the boolit selection from every maker. 50% are a waste but it is not the GG's or drive bands that cause the most trouble. The amount of lube a boolit carries can be a problem but I have not found the placement or shape to be a problem. Most of my best have round bottom grooves spaced goofy. You would laugh at some of my boolits and tell me they will never shoot but after knocking off a beer can at 200 yards you would stop thinking so hard. [smilie=w: My most accurate .475 boolit has a very narrow base band and is a PB. I cast it hard and it has done under 1" at 100 yards. I popped a lot of deer with it to over 100 yards.
Just never ask me to explain it all because I can't. It is all trial and error and even a TL boolit from Lee will shoot if the boolit itself is correct.
I have reached the point where I look at a boolit and say "That's good." Just don't ask me to explain it. I am not about to balance a boolit on a blade and tell anyone that it has so much weight to the rear or the front band is correct. I am crazy enough now! :veryconfu
My hardest problem is choosing what boolit to cast for a gun because all shoot so good but each needs a different sight setting. I wind up using the same boolit I set the sight to. Even if I have 5 molds for one gun, I still make the same boolits over and over.
I am a nut Bass and you can't change me! You get too technical and I am 180* off.
I wish we could get together, shoot and have a few drinks at the end of the day. I see you laughing like mad and having fun, hitting stuff you never thought possible and learning to relax enough to toss your pencils in the trash. [smilie=s:

[44man]

Take a look at the 453640 PB here:
http://www.brp.castpics.net/P2.html

Several members here have tried it and it has worked very well for them.........even Lloyd Smale likes it. :shock:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=66230
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=83174
How great that is and how true. Babore is so far above what I do I am always humbled. I do my best but Bruce is a craftsman without any doubt.
I would have a pile of his molds if it wasn't for this stupid SS I live under.
We talk a lot on E mail and I consider him one of my best friends and he will do anything for you. Do not hesitate to have him make you a mold, there is none better.

[Changeling]

There is a lot of expertise here and it has always been my goal to be able to tap in on that expertise. I truly believe that individuals on each side of the equation have points that they believe are valid and correct, but there just doesn't seem to be a real blending of information or any intent of doing so.

It is dam hard to argue with someone (44Man) who has been there, seen it, and done it, relative to accuracy! Anyone can say what they want but (usually), accuracy sort of says it all by itself! If you argue this point it would be ridiculous and fall on deaf ears!
At the same time one of my major interests from the beginning has been "Meplat Size" witch everyone seems to want to leave out of there beliefs/talks except for 44Man who literally said LFN/WFN/LWFN/RNFP.
I just don't believe that as one go's from 41 to 45 cal for example they expect one to settle on a .320 meplat, hell why even move up in caliber!!
I thought that the 45 2.1 designed bullet looked AWESOME, but not having a design option/larger meplat sort of puts it in a not so spectacular grouping, when I looked at the samples from the link, heck they were all .320 meplat!!

[GLynn41]

Mountain Mold makes a great mold -- and I have a Miha and LBT molds and Dan's just as good--he will at his web page let you design your own mold and meplat -- he usually goes with a 70-75% meplat iirc-- but for hunting his boolit is a Truncated cone in .358 for his .357 of 160 gr and an .80% meplat -- my.411 255gr WLNGC has a .400 tangential nose and a .81% meplat -- and so far out 100 yards no accuracy problems-but I have not tried to slow it down very far in my .41 or my .41 wildcats- I have had good results with the Long wide nose and the Keiths --- I have an NEI SSk TC mold for a 290 gr boolit plain base and it has done well-- these three have done well for me

[44man]

Using my .44 I have dumped a pile of deer with the 320 gr LBT WLNGC. I have to measure the meplat, I think I still have a few around here.
I have made boolits with 80% meplats for my other calibers and they work like gangbusters on deer but they are also extremely accurate as far as you care to shoot them.
Never believe the old tale that a WFN will not shoot far. They can be head spinning accurate to 500 meters (547 yards) but I have not tried them farther yet.
I hope to shoot 800 yards soon but the problem is there is a lot of grass to the target and boolit impact can't be seen.

[Lloyd Smale]

good 45 cal bullets under 300 grain are tough to find and this seems to be a good one. Its shot well in a number of my 45s and seems to fly well at long range too. Unlike 44man i wont put any blanket statements on which bullets are better. Ive had good luck with all of them and problems with all of them. Ive had kieths that outshot lfns and wfns and keiths that wouldnt group on the paper. I can say the exact same thing about wfns. Lfns seem to be a bit easier to work with but ive had bad lfns too. I gave up on buying copys of molds that were done as group buys. It seems to take some a minute change in a bullet to make it go from great to **** and it seems its about impossible to correctly copy a design as I dont think ones been done yet that was exactly the same. One thing i do like about getting molds from bruce is his molds arent group buys there stocked molds so if I buy one and it turns out to be a great bullet and I screw my mold up somehow i can get the exact same mold from him again and that means alot to me.
Take a look at the 453640 PB here:
http://www.brp.castpics.net/P2.html

Several members here have tried it and it has worked very well for them.........even Lloyd Smale likes it. :shock:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=66230
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=83174

[Bret4207]

The best 45 design for the big Colt I've used thus far is a truly ancient Belding and Mull design. It looks like something of a ogival wadcutter. But, it's a cranky mould and a single. The BD45 GB works pretty darn good.

[44man]

good 45 cal bullets under 300 grain are tough to find and this seems to be a good one. Its shot well in a number of my 45s and seems to fly well at long range too. Unlike 44man i wont put any blanket statements on which bullets are better. Ive had good luck with all of them and problems with all of them. Ive had kieths that outshot lfns and wfns and keiths that wouldnt group on the paper. I can say the exact same thing about wfns. Lfns seem to be a bit easier to work with but ive had bad lfns too. I gave up on buying copys of molds that were done as group buys. It seems to take some a minute change in a bullet to make it go from great to **** and it seems its about impossible to correctly copy a design as I dont think ones been done yet that was exactly the same. One thing i do like about getting molds from bruce is his molds arent group buys there stocked molds so if I buy one and it turns out to be a great bullet and I screw my mold up somehow i can get the exact same mold from him again and that means alot to me.
No blanket statements Lloyd, just that I hate the statements so common that a WFN will go unstable past 50 yards. It is just not true. It always comes down to the boolit itself. I have made molds so close together it is hard to see a difference and one will shoot but the other will not. I can not give an answer. There is something else at work. It can be a tad too less lube from one to another.
Bruce has sent me a lot of Keith style boolits to play with in all of my calibers and they are beautiful boolits indeed. Yet nothing I do can make them group to my standards. They shoot good but not great and they are fine for hunting. The Keith has always shot good but never great. I just can not make them do what I want. 25 yards is duck soup but never ask me to get anything from 50 on out. I grit my teeth with an inch at 50 and even at 100 with some revolvers. Sure, I am nuts in the head and admit it. :bigsmyl2:
Many of my boolits shoot better then LBT's. I don't know if the truncated cone is the ideal. The truncated cone will beat a Keith but some of mine beat both.
It is pure blind luck and I can not tell you what is best. I am not about to say that GG needs to be .00000015" wider or closer to the nose.
Some boolits shoot and some do not and if anyone can pin it down, it sure will not be me. :veryconfu

[Bass Ackward]

At the same time one of my major interests from the beginning has been "Meplat Size" witch everyone seems to want to leave out of there beliefs/talks except for 44Man who literally said LFN/WFN/LWFN/RNFP.


44man, Jim, will tell this to anyone that will listen. And show you too. What good is that? Anyone else doing it? Can you do it? Should you care? If the standard is 1" at 100 yards, and you can't do that with open sights, are you going to quit hunting? Sell all your handguns?

Try this example: If you have 100, 454 Casuals with 9" barrels:

1. You will have maybe 3 guns capable of launching a 90% meplat accurately out to 600 yards. But only 1 man out of 100 can achieve that accuracy with one of those guns if he can find one. A poor reloader or shooter, may have trouble getting 2" at 25 yards even with a perfect gun.

2. Maybe 20 of those guns are "capable" to shoot an 80% accurately out to just 300 yards. And now you can get 10 guys out of 100 that can figure out whats going on well enough to do this.

3. Maybe 50% of the guns can shoot a 70% meplat well out to 100 yards. Now maybe 40 guys out of 100 can figure out how to pull that off.

See how the numbers are improving with a declining meplat size? BUT!!!

4. Maybe 40 guns will be so poor or your skills suck so bad that no cast works well at 50 yards regardless of the meplat size. The slower the caliber or the shorter the barrel length, the lower the odds get for distance regardless of meplat size.

So picking a meplat number is like telling someone that lube " X" is the only lube to use. Or a 44 Magnum is more accurate than a 45 Colt. Or that you need at least a 7 1/2" barrel. Or (and here is the BIGGY), that your gun, molding, and loading techniques sucks so badly that you are limited to only a 50% meplat. Who can know that? (Only you)

The question to be asking is, "What can you get by with?" Meplat size is the most over rated element to cast handgun work. It is equivalent to the Magnum velocity craze for rifles.

If its true that the meplat does all the work then a stupid animal and a stupid hole can't tell bore diameter. If the standard is a 1" hole through game, then that can be done with an 80% meplat in 357 at 1000 fps. Or a 44 with 66% meplat at 1000 fps. Or a 60% bullet in 45 caliber at 1000 fps. How do I know? Meplats are all the same size.

So ask yourself this:

1. What bore diameter will be easiest to make shoot well at 1000 fps if you keep the same meplat size? OR shoot accurately the farthest?
2. Why go any faster than 1000 fps? If you go faster, then you don't NEED as wide a meplat to cut the same size hole.
3. So, why decrease your odds of accuracy success with a SUPER H U G E meplat? The answer is because it is manly. :grin:

If you think all that a crock, you are NOT alone. Welcome to the magnum / meplat craze. Go get a 460 WBY and you will be set for rabid rabbits in attack mode. :grin:

[jh45gun]

Too many folks think they are Elmer Keith or want to be. For long range shooting I will use my rifles while pistols can be shot at longer ranges and by some folks quite well the majority of folks shoot at close range. I figure 50 yards is a good average for hunting with a pistol or closer which in most cases is where most pistol shooting is done. Not saying it cannot be done I once put 6 shots out of a 22 mag Single Six into a Cigarette Carton at a paced off 100 yards. Could I do it again probably not as that was when I was in my early twenty's and my eyes were sharp and I carried that SS religiously when I was out in the outdoors. While I can still shoot a short gun well I doubt I can shoot as good as I could back then. Lots of 22's went through that gun both LR and Magnum until I got the urge to sell it to a friend so I could buy a Smith and Wesson Model 10. That Ruger was one of the good ones I have regretted it ever since that I sold it back in 1976. The next one I bought years later could not shoot for cr*p with either cylinder in the gun.

[44man]

Bass has a lot of wisdom about the gun and the shooter.
But being primarily a hunter I am the first to admit that I do not need the accuracy I look for because distances are short for deer with only one shot out around 100 every now and then. But 100 is easy with accuracy.
I just love to make a revolver shoot even if I don't use it for hunting. It has been a long, long time since I had a poor gun, many, many S&W's, Rugers and a few others. The worst was a Bearcat, a single six and various Dan Wessons. Yes I have had some miserable revolvers but they don't stay long. I have never had a Ruger .44 that shot poorly and the most accurate was my SRH. I bought a Bisley Hunter once and it had to go. I hated the grip although the gun shot good. The grip is on the verge of sensitive and it beat my knuckle. A grip change would have helped but a friend loved the gun so I sold it.
However after doing necropsy work on piles of deer, I found the ideal velocity for the most internal damage is between 1200 and 1400 fps with a heavy WLN or WFN and there is no difference between them. I have shot the WFN but I have never made a full WFN on my molds.
As you start to jack up the velocity with a hard, large meplat boolit they begin to FAIL unless you soften them for some expansion.
They are also slower to kill when you start dropping below 1200 fps. Good penetration but internal damage starts to drop.
The best knock down and quickest killing velocity with all of my hunting revolvers is at 1350 fps. The big meplat has limitations that a hunter has to learn. Once you get outside the box, you need to initiate some expansion.
The WFN is no better then a WLN or a decent Keith and if you want hard boolits for accuracy you need to stay in the box.
Shoot deer with a WFN at 1800 fps and you will do as well with an ice pick. This boolit NEEDS to expand unless animals get very large and tough like buf, etc, so the boolit will slow in the animal and start to do work.
Experience in the field can show you how wrong you are with boolit choice and velocity.
Too large a meplat can actually work against you if you stray to the edge of the box with higher velocity. It will move tissue farther from the primary wound channel in passage.
But my comments about it was about accuracy, a WFN that shoots good at 50 will not lose accuracy way out there. If a boolit does not shoot, get rid of it! :bigsmyl2:

[jh45gun]

1200 and 1400 fps I find that interesting as your in, of course magnum range velocity
So how about slower heavy bullets? I contend that bullets going slower in the 850 to 900 fps range will kill a deer just fine with a large caliber bullet. Especially at the close pistol ranges I am talking about which is 50 yards and closer. While I have not shot any deer yet with my 45 Colt in either my Encore or Uberti I have shot enough deer with enough different cartridges to figure it will still do work just fine and I would not hesitate to use either.

[44man]

1200 and 1400 fps I find that interesting as your in, of course magnum range velocity
So how about slower heavy bullets? I contend that bullets going slower in the 850 to 900 fps range will kill a deer just fine with a large caliber bullet. Especially at the close pistol ranges I am talking about which is 50 yards and closer. While I have not shot any deer yet with my 45 Colt in either my Encore or Uberti I have shot enough deer with enough different cartridges to figure it will still do work just fine and I would not hesitate to use either.
Yes they kill but I find it takes a little longer for the deer to die but they also do not seem to run as far and many times they just jump and stand there. Good penetration and bleed out. (Hard boolit.)
This is better then going too fast and is close to an arrow in effect.
Adding just a tiny bit of expansion makes them work even better when slow.
The velocity range I like causes the most internal damage with no meat loss and the impact on them is noticeable.
When the flat nose gets too fast the deer hardly notice and blood trails are miserable even with two holes and this is where expansion solves it. They just go off and keep going until they die and it might be 200 yards or more with a double lung hit. Opening them shows the lungs intact except for a hole. The slow boolit just cuts everything it touches but the boolit too fast forces everything out of the way.
So between the two extremes, your slower boolit is best.
Overall though, 1300-1350 fps has shown the quickest kills with heavy hard cast.
When I shoot a deer with my Vaquero at about 1150-1160 fps, I just have to sit and watch them die, there really is a time difference. Now if I soften that boolit, it will slam them.
Most of my work has been with a harder boolit so for all you hunters, there is very little we can compare depending on your alloys. I can't compare to jacketed either.
If you use expanding boolits, you can go about anywhere with velocity as long as you keep good penetration.
But if you buy boolits like LBT's, or shoot hard for accuracy, you are better staying in the box.

[ChuckS1]

Well, for what it's worth, both my Lipsey .44 Special and my USFA .45 Colt like round nose bullets better than the Keith SWC. Accuracy seems ot be better off a sandbag at 25 yards when I use a round nose design than the SWC. My .45 Colt boolit is the 454190 sized at .452 (ok not a true round nose, but close) and I use the Lyman round nose 246 grain 429XXX ( sorry for the life of me can't remember the number).

[Bass Ackward]

I wanted better ignition below the barrier so I got a Lipsey Bisley. Named it Mikey too because it will eat anything. Any powder, any bullet design (so far) Kinda like my 45ARs.

Well everybody thinks in different terms. But if I have a load that is going squirrely at longer range and I need to reach out for some reason, then I hollow point it. Get a drill and get that weight off the nose an set it back where it belongs. Want more distance, (within reason) drill deeper or use a bigger drill. You can reach out longer distances with pipsqueak (below barrier) loads.

You can do it with solids at lower velocity too, but without the RPMs, boy oh boy is gun quality, design, lube, load balance critical and hard to develop / find. To critical (PIA) just drill it for the few that I need. If you are going to have to hold over anyway .... a clank is a clank?

Works no matter how wide the meplat or lack of it.

[2shot]

When the flat nose gets too fast the deer hardly notice and blood trails are miserable even with two holes and this is where expansion solves it. They just go off and keep going until they die and it might be 200 yards or more with a double lung hit. Opening them shows the lungs intact except for a hole. The slow boolit just cuts everything it touches but the boolit too fast forces everything out of the way.

I have found this very thing when I used the 41 Mag with Federal 250 gr. Cast Core factory ammo. I know that the velosity isn't more than 1200 fps but I have had very tough tracking jobs when I used this bullet. Very little if any blood and internal damage dispite two holes in the deer. I no longer use this Federal Cast Core ammo for deer!

2shot

[Changeling]

Yes they kill but I find it takes a little longer for the deer to die but they also do not seem to run as far and many times they just jump and stand there. Good penetration and bleed out. (Hard boolit.)
This is better then going too fast and is close to an arrow in effect.
Adding just a tiny bit of expansion makes them work even better when slow.
The velocity range I like causes the most internal damage with no meat loss and the impact on them is noticeable.
When the flat nose gets too fast the deer hardly notice and blood trails are miserable even with two holes and this is where expansion solves it. They just go off and keep going until they die and it might be 200 yards or more with a double lung hit. Opening them shows the lungs intact except for a hole. The slow boolit just cuts everything it touches but the boolit too fast forces everything out of the way.
So between the two extremes, your slower boolit is best.
Overall though, 1300-1350 fps has shown the quickest kills with heavy hard cast.
When I shoot a deer with my Vaquero at about 1150-1160 fps, I just have to sit and watch them die, there really is a time difference. Now if I soften that boolit, it will slam them.
Most of my work has been with a harder boolit so for all you hunters, there is very little we can compare depending on your alloys. I can't compare to jacketed either.
If you use expanding boolits, you can go about anywhere with velocity as long as you keep good penetration.
But if you buy boolits like LBT's, or shoot hard for accuracy, you are better staying in the box.

Hi Jim, I follow what you are saying but some things are confusing to me.

When you say 1300-1350 fps has shown the quickest kills with "HEAVY" bullets. This is something that makes no sense to me, the heavy, part. The internal damage would be a function of the meplat size and velocity, weight shouldn't have anything to do with it as long as enough weight is there to create a pass through without slowing down the bullet ( there will always be some slow down of course).

I guess the biggest question in my mind after reading this post where I wanted a BIG meplat, should have been, what is the best FP meplat size for accuracy in the 45 Colt without going to a round nose or anything close to one. "If" I feel that a "320" meplat is too small for killing power (witch it isn't) I can always adjust that situation with the nose to create a larger wound channel.

After reading my own "above" paragraph, I think I should concern myself more with accuracy, witch has always been my "First" priority regardless! If you can't hit it, all other things are meaningless.
I would rather go the "WFN" route, but it appears to many people are having accuracy problems with that big of a meplat on a 45 ( talking .360 +) .
So it appears I will be looking into accuracy configurations of particular bullets in the 260- 280 range, I just do not need a bullet heavier than that and especially with my back injury (Getting a LOT better). But aside from that it's just not needed in my opinion (there are exceptions);-).
Not what one would call a lot of experience relative to revolvers, but I do know what I'm doing, at least I hope so, LOL!

[44man]

Hi Jim, I follow what you are saying but some things are confusing to me.

When you say 1300-1350 fps has shown the quickest kills with "HEAVY" bullets. This is something that makes no sense to me, the heavy, part. The internal damage would be a function of the meplat size and velocity, weight shouldn't have anything to do with it as long as enough weight is there to create a pass through without slowing down the bullet ( there will always be some slow down of course).

I guess the biggest question in my mind after reading this post where I wanted a BIG meplat, should have been, what is the best FP meplat size for accuracy in the 45 Colt without going to a round nose or anything close to one. "If" I feel that a "320" meplat is too small for killing power (witch it isn't) I can always adjust that situation with the nose to create a larger wound channel.

After reading my own "above" paragraph, I think I should concern myself more with accuracy, witch has always been my "First" priority regardless! If you can't hit it, all other things are meaningless.
I would rather go the "WFN" route, but it appears to many people are having accuracy problems with that big of a meplat on a 45 ( talking .360 +) .
So it appears I will be looking into accuracy configurations of particular bullets in the 260- 280 range, I just do not need a bullet heavier than that and especially with my back injury (Getting a LOT better). But aside from that it's just not needed in my opinion (there are exceptions);-).
Not what one would call a lot of experience relative to revolvers, but I do know what I'm doing, at least I hope so, LOL!
Heavy gives the penetration but meplat size from a WLN to a WFN does not seem to make a difference. It is expansion or lack of it means a lot. Too slow needs a little and so does too fast. Since my boolits do not expand, my assessment for velocity is seeming to work.
Heavy it the .44 would be from 265 to 320 gr and in the .45 from 300 to 335 gr. This gives good penetration even if you have some expansion. I suppose 280 gr would do good but I never tried any.
I have shot too many deer with a WLN from the .44 to say a WFN is better and I suppose a good Keith will be as good.
But the lack of accuracy from a WFN is unfounded and I attribute it to using fast powders and a velocity too low for stability. I don't think a WLN will shoot good either if the velocity does not match what the boolit needs.
Remember how many times I have said that revolver shooters ignore twist rates and think any boolit will shoot from 700 to 1500 fps! Each and every boolit needs a load workup and the WFN has given me extreme accuracy just like a WLN. The RNFP's from Lee shoot even better then the truncated cone boolits in many cases.
You really miss my point though for the velocity. That is with HARDER boolits which I use for the best accuracy. So I need to combine velocity and accuracy into one package for hunting. A hard, non expanding boolit is very effective when in the box but if you stray, you need to look for expansion.
I have a home made boolit for my .45 that has a .375" meplat that shoots like a house afire. It does not kill any better then an LBT WLN because it is hard and just a little too slow. It works exactly the same.
Do not be afraid of a WFN. They do shoot. But I can't say they kill faster.
Only heavier and larger boolits do more like the .475 and .500's. But velocity still must be "in the box." That depends on your alloy most of all.
I just do not find accuracy with soft lead, either fast or slow and is why I stay where I am.

[jh45gun]

My Bullets are straight WW air cooled and I am getting good accuracy using the Lee 452-252-SWC which was a ordering mistake . I had the local gun shop order me 452-255-RF and they ordered the wrong one the SWC. Well Lee was at the time back ordered on molds and at least a month behind at the time, so I said I would keep the SWC and try it. It shot so well I canceled the RF one.

[44man]

Long, long ago I had an 8-3/8" .357, model 27 if I remember. The barrel was ribbed and I mounted one of the first pistol scopes on it, might have been a Bushnell. Has to be 57 years or more, don't remember. I did use 2400 and the 357156 HP.
I would fill those little frozen juice cans with water and shooting prone, blow them up at 100 yards, over and over. Never gave it a thought that a revolver was not supposed to shoot that far. I head shot many chucks with that gun. There were no deer in Ohio then and handguns were not legal anyway, only bows and shotguns if you could even find a deer. The only deer I ever seen were behind the fence at Plumbrook NASA facility, herds of huge bucks. I never seen a deer in the fields. I varmint hunted at Resthaven wild life area near Sandusky. Shot a bunch of chucks to 100 yards with the flat top BH .44 using the 429421 and 2400. I busted rocks out to 400 yards with the flat top and open sights. I took hair off a running chuck at 500 yards one time.
I have never duplicated that accuracy since all of that stuff was sold off. I do not know what happened, the guns or the boolits???? Or ME!
Today, only my BFR's will do it but not with a Keith. My SBH will not shoot a Keith. I can't get every Freedom to shoot good, can't get every S&W to shoot good. I can't get every rifle to shoot as good as the old guns, only Savage and Weatherby rifles seem to still have it. Old US Enfields and Springfields shoot better then most factory rifles today. Old lever guns, Marlins and model 71's were unreal. I had a 39 Mounty .22 that would group 3/4" at 100 with WW ammo. But when they went to micro groove for the big bores they messed up for cast shooters. My .35 Rem would do an inch at 100 with jacketed but cast was a waste of time.
My pre 64 model 70 in .220 Swift put 5 shots in 1/4" at 350 yards once when I was sighting it in. I head shot chucks to 600 yards with it. I only remember missing twice with the gun and killed crows better then 400 yards with it. I had a dead crow on every fence post all around the hunting area one year.
Things have changed and not for the better in many cases. I feel I have lived through the glory days of gun accuracy.
Today for revolvers, the BFR's have all been accurate and if you can see a 1" target at 100, you can hit it. Other revolvers seem to be one in five to one in ten to find a shooter. That includes customs too. Throwing money at a gun will not help.
Long ago I had a WW 52 that would put all bullets in one hole at 50 and when done, it would shoot the staples out to change the target. Too heavy for squirrels so I had a smith lighten the barrel so I could restock it. Mistake, it would not shoot. I sent it to Winchester for a new barrel and it still would not shoot. Had to sell it. Bought one of the new Winchester all machined lever guns and could not hit a tin can at 25 yards, what a piece of junk. Traded for a Browning straight pull .22 and it shot pretty good. Now I have a Ruger .22 auto but my Mark II's will out shoot it.
My 1919 Swede will hold 1/2" at 100 all day. Here are two off hand shots on a can at 100 yards.

[Bass Ackward]

Long ago I had a WW 52 that would put all bullets in one hole at 50 and when done, it would shoot the staples out to change the target. Too heavy for squirrels so I had a smith lighten the barrel so I could restock it. Mistake, it would not shoot.


This from the man with the 10# handgun?

You wack the wood, not the 28" of metal. :grin: Here is my single shot 52.

[44man]

This from the man with the 10# handgun?

You wack the wood, not the 28" of metal. :grin: Here is my single shot 52.
I love it, you are smarter then I was back then!
Why the replacement barrel was so bad on mine shows the downfall of many companies. It cost me $100 for a barrel that shot worse then the cut up one.
My heaviest revolver with a red dot is a little over 5# and I guarantee if you came and shot it, you would have to have one, I have a box of Kleenex so you can mop up drool! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Changeling]

Heavy gives the penetration but meplat size from a WLN to a WFN does not seem to make a difference. It is expansion or lack of it means a lot. Too slow needs a little and so does too fast. Since my boolits do not expand, my assessment for velocity is seeming to work.
Heavy it the .44 would be from 265 to 320 gr and in the .45 from 300 to 335 gr. This gives good penetration even if you have some expansion. I suppose 280 gr would do good but I never tried any.
I have shot too many deer with a WLN from the .44 to say a WFN is better and I suppose a good Keith will be as good.
But the lack of accuracy from a WFN is unfounded and I attribute it to using fast powders and a velocity too low for stability. I don't think a WLN will shoot good either if the velocity does not match what the boolit needs.
Remember how many times I have said that revolver shooters ignore twist rates and think any boolit will shoot from 700 to 1500 fps! Each and every boolit needs a load workup and the WFN has given me extreme accuracy just like a WLN. The RNFP's from Lee shoot even better then the truncated cone boolits in many cases.
You really miss my point though for the velocity. That is with HARDER boolits which I use for the best accuracy. So I need to combine velocity and accuracy into one package for hunting. A hard, non expanding boolit is very effective when in the box but if you stray, you need to look for expansion.
I have a home made boolit for my .45 that has a .375" meplat that shoots like a house afire. It does not kill any better then an LBT WLN because it is hard and just a little too slow. It works exactly the same.
Do not be afraid of a WFN. They do shoot. But I can't say they kill faster.
Only heavier and larger boolits do more like the .475 and .500's. But velocity still must be "in the box." That depends on your alloy most of all.
I just do not find accuracy with soft lead, either fast or slow and is why I stay where I am.

Hi Jim. First off I don't want you to think for a second that I have abandoned what you have taught me and the reason for those things. My course is still as straight as ever, except for one major setback that no one knows about till now!!
That SS Ruger 45 LC that I got the good deal on!! If you remember I told you that I had never seen a gun so fouled with lead in my life! It was absolutely unbelievable. Layer after layer of lead/copper. I (and neighbor) soaked that revolver for ever it seems like and it was starting to all come out. That is when the "Truth came out also", someone had intentionally (I believe) used some kind of steel shaft to hammer scars into the barrel steel! It was absolutely tore up inside. There is no way it could have been an accidental type thing from someone cleaning wrong!! I suppose then someone devised a method of intensionally covering up the barrel by the lead and copper layers. I doubt I will ever know!
Anyway it is gone/sold. Man did that take a lot of buyers looking at it.
I found another one (finally) and bought it. It is in back of me now getting its daily dose of "Shooters Choice", soaking. Not near as dirty as the other, but still has layers of lead/copper.
What in the Hell is wrong with people, do they think the new revolvers are like a self cleaning oven?

Anyway I thought you just might like to know about the other revolver.

A friend on the forum just sent me a bunch ( and I mean a bunch) of different 45 260/280 range bullets to try. I don't know if he wants his name mentioned so I wont. But it was extremely generous of him and will not go unappreciated.

So my intentions are still the same: I will be trying the 260/280 range bullets and see what develops. If for some reason I don't become happy with them I will move up in weight as you suggested ( a few 1000 times)LOL! But one thing at a time, somewhat.

My original intentions were with WW Quenched bullets, but I don't think the ones I was sent were quenched, but I really don't know at this point. Print on bags was rubbed off in transit.


The dimensions/bullet fit of the revolver will be taken care of before any load development, right or wrong that is just the way I do things. Soon as it's clean I'll slug it and see what I have to work with, then the modifications if necessary will be performed. Right off the bat I know it needs a trigger job, when do they not!!

If you get the time let me know how Carol is, there is a new medicine out that has reduced my pain dramatically and could very well work for her!

[44man]

Carols back is cured, no more pain. Disk decompression worked. Thanks for the thoughts.
You will be fine with those weight boolits. I only use the heavy ones for hunting. Accuracy can be had with most boolits if everything matches.

[jh45gun]

Carols back is cured, no more pain. Disk decompression worked. Thanks for the thoughts.



That's Good!

[44man]

That's Good!
Thank you.
The machine they put her on was amazing. She had three ruptured disks from a car accident and they were pressing on nerves. I had to take her so many times a week and the session on the machine was only 1/2 hour at a time, then some ultra sound and a tense unit. She had to take supplements.
If any of you get a ruptured disk, find a chiropractor with one and stay away from the knife.
She went from not being able to stand, sit or walk back to using her little tiller and planting the garden.
Look for disk decompression. It really works.

[jh45gun]

Good info to know.