Cast boolits for a 577-450 MH

[flutedchamber]

I have my brass, dies and mould from Lee (500grain pointed boolit, no gas check), and the load data..now for my question.

Waayyy back when the Martini-Henry was used, am I correct in assuming that pure lead was used to cast the boolits?

I can cast a harder boolit, but would the soft lead be better suited to the low pressures and rifling type?

Thank you all for your help.

[Buckshot]

............The Brits used a 'hardened' slug, using tin. Depending upon which 'Mark you have will determine what OD you'll need in attempting to fire a naked grease grooved slug. I have a MKIV (long lever) Martini and HM troops fired a 480gr cup based slug of .465" OD and paper patched to .472". The earlier Marks used a slightly smaller OD, but were also paper patched.

That 500 gr Lee may or may not get you were you want to go. If you cast it soft and use it as cast over a charge of BP, you might be happy. Another issue with that Boolit and BP is the minimal amount of lube it carries, so be thinking of a lube cookie. Finally, modern drawn cases hold a bunch more BP then the early Martini cases, so filler and cardwads will be called for. I actually loaded 20 rounds using BP for my Martini but using the Lee 450 gr slug. My Bertram cases took about 110gr to the base of the neck. It provided me with more entertainment then I could stand :-)

Below: My favorite load for my rifle is the Lee 457-405F used as cast and patched with 20# typing paper for a .472" OD. This is loaded over 38.0grs of IMR3031 and dacron. It gives 1250 fps and is very accurate.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

..................Buckshot

[dromia]

12 to 1 lead to tin 480 gn was th original boolit.

As buckshot says what Mk are you shooting?

I've found my Mk 1V the most accurate with the large bore diameter .470".

This a 100yrd 5 shot group with a PP boolit, the flyer to the right was called:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/adamsutherland/Targets/targetMH.jpg



Here's some original specifications:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/adamsutherland/Martini%20Stuff/1f9043e2.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/adamsutherland/Martini%20Stuff/a8d8a156.jpg



I use nitrated paper in the case to reduce the loads along with carded wool wad to keep the powder in place below the boolit/card wad/grease ball column.

Personally I don't subscribe to this no air space 'tween powder and boolit rule. W.W. Greener writes about it in his book and I have deferred to his knowledge without any problems.

I load 85 gns of Swiss No5 powder under either the NDFS style PP or grease groove boolits.

[dromia]

BTW I would not recommend using Jamison brass, I got 200 cases of them in a GB once and they were all rubbish, unfinished and wouldn't chamber in any of my .577"/.450"s. Worst of all Jamison would not replace them.

I hear a few of the GB particpants did get some recompense a year later, by that time I'd scrapped the brass as it was so poor I wouldn't have trusted firing them even if I had the machine tools, skills, time and inclination to turn them back to specification.

Cheat me once shame on you.

Cheat me twice shame on me.

I use Bertram, Kynoch and reformed Magtech 28 bore shotgun brass. All perform well but the Magtech as a very generous case capacity.

For boolits I use roof flashing BHN 6 with a touch of tin or lino type to help fill out.

[JeffinNZ]

Jim at www.castbulletengineering.com does a good number of MH specifc moulds.

[Buckshot]

BTW I would not recommend using Jamison brass, I got 200 cases of them in a GB once and they were all rubbish, unfinished and wouldn't chamber in any of my .577"/.450"s. Worst of all Jamison wouldn't replace them.

I hear a few of the GB particpants did get some recompense a year later, by that time I'd scrapped the brass as it was so poor I wouldn't have trusted firing them even if I had the machine tools, skills, time and inclination to turn them back to specification.


..........I'd heard about that, but luckily only bought .577 Snider in that GB. I haven't fired any of it yet as I have quite a hoard of 24ga Mag-Tech brass. It appears to be okay, but is HEAVY looking. They almost appear as if they were actually CAST rather then drawn :-)

.............Buckshot

[dromia]

..........I'd heard about that, but luckily only bought .577 Snider in that GB. I haven't fired any of it yet as I have quite a hoard of 24ga Mag-Tech brass. It appears to be okay, but is HEAVY looking. They almost appear as if they were actually CAST rather then drawn :-)

.............Buckshot


I got 200 .577" Snider as well and they were rubbish too, wouldn't chamber, base off centre to the case and out of round too.

[Buckshot]

I got 200 .577" Snider as well and they were rubbish too, wouldn't chamber, base off centre to the case and out of round too.

...........Well just great. Good news from all over :-)

............Buckshot

[dromia]

Aye, that group buy was certainly a special one to remember. :sad:

[The Double D]

Jamison, did get a black eye from that deal. The brass they sold us in the group buy was bad, very bad. It was easily fixed to be made usable, but why should we have to fix new brass to use it.

Then waiting a year to make good on it did not help their reputation at all.

They make some very good brass, now. But the damage is done.

Besides getting a bad rep with us, they also lost a big customer as a one of the custom ammunition maker dropped them a s a supplier over the deal.


Mistakes happen. But how you correct a mistake,, can be as important as making a good product.

[dromia]

Mistakes happen. But how you correct a mistake,, can be as important as making a good product.

Absolutely Douglas, it wasn't the dogdy brass in itself but Jamisons refusal to do anything about their "not fit for purpose" product that got my goat.

[JeffinNZ]

Now as far as a bullet goes don't forget the pistol bullets for the .475 Linebaugh etc. Search the Lee site for a .476 diameter bullet etc.

[flutedchamber]

Gents,

Sorry for the delay in replying...it has been a busy week.

My rifle is a MK IV long lever. My gunsmith slugged the bore when I bought it and is is .458. After I read the bore sizes printed here I thought perhaps he made a mistake and slugged the bore with a .470 lead round ball. I get a reading of .459 in the grooves and .450 on the lands.

Perhaps my rifle was re-barreled just before it was retired? I have some head scratching to do on this. I understand the paper patching benefits but it now seems that I must find some very thin paper or a smaller diameter bullet.

[Buckshot]

Gents,


My rifle is a MK IV long lever. My gunsmith slugged the bore when I bought it and is is .458. After I read the bore sizes printed here I thought perhaps he made a mistake and slugged the bore with a .470 lead round ball. I get a reading of .459 in the grooves and .450 on the lands. Perhaps my rifle was re-barreled just before it was retired?

...........I doubt that, but I suppose over the years someone might have swapped barrels and actions? You can tell by removing the forend. On the rear underside of the barrel should be a rectangular bit of metal hanging down with a hole in it. The earlier Mk's used a crosspin through the rear of the forend and it passed through the hole. The MkIV didn't have it. I wonder how those numbers were determined as the Henry rifling is of 7 lands and grooves. On the underside of the barrel covered by the forend should be a date.

http://www.fototime.com/64C4B72377C9197/standard.jpg

You'll possibly have to get your nose right up to the screen to see what I'm talking about :-) Lets establish some definitions first. The narrow lands we'll call er, .............Narrow lands? The wide places between them we'll call Grooves, eh? Now, in the drawing there are 3 concentric circles. The 1st, or innermost is a reference line for angles, which we're not interested in, so we'll ignore it. The 2nd and 3rd outer circles intersect, and are reference lines for certain features of the Henry rifling system. We're interested in these 2 lines and the features.

So to avoid confusion pick 2 adjacent Narrow Lands, and the groove between them. Now look at the 2nd dashed line. It not only touches the tops of the Narrow Lands, but it also touches the center of what we're calling the groove, right? Obviously even though you might not think so (without the circle to proove it) the center of the groove and the top of the Narrow Land are the SAME DISTANCE from a point in the center of the barrel's axis.

At 3:30 in the drawing the measurement is 0.449". The left end of the line is touching just off center of the groove. The right end of the line (with the 0.449" on it) isn't touching anything Except the 2nd reference circle, and there is unmeasured depth below it, yes? However the circle it touches does touch the tops of the Narrow Lands and the center of the

Now, the 3rd (outermost) concentric circle touches the bottoms of the arcs of the sides of the Narrow Lands to connect with the grooves. In actuality what we have here are the TRUE GROOVES located immediately to either side of the Narrow Land. You probably picked up on that after looking at the 2nd circle, right?

At about 10:00 is another measurement which is 0.468". The left end of the line that carries the 0.468" measurement is touching the 3rd circle which references the bottom of a True Groove at that point. The right end of the line cannot do the same as the lands and grooves are an odd number, so it passes through a spot in the Wide Groove to intersect the same 3rd reference line.

What we end up with in spite of the odd number of lands and grooves are the land and groove measurements of 0.449" x 0.468". The reason the boolits for the MkIV are patched to .472" is because of the throat OD in the MkIV and it has a comparatively long tapered throat and gentle leade. The diameter helps seal it and does especially well with smokless.

..............Buckshot

[flutedchamber]

Buckshot,

Thank you for the rapid reply. I will check under the forend tonight. I have to leave in a bit to take the wife on a shopping safari...and you know how long they take.

I am a machinist by trade, and measured the diameter with a V mic. It is especially suited to measure groove diameters as it is made for measuring fluted shafts with an odd number of flutes.

Now whether or not the barrel was changed, at this time I do not know. When I bought the piece it was in especially fine condition and wrapped in an oiled paper and the firearm itself was covered in a grease that I would not exactly call Cosmoline, but I guess it was close. A whole lot of fun and rubbing to get it out of every nook and corner.

The guy I bought it from thought it was an odd .410 gauge shotgun that his Dad brought back from overseas. Owing to it's age it is anyone's guess what could have been done to it.