need help on mold design

[canuck4570]

I want to buy or have a mold made for my comming 338 federal.... I would like to know wath effect having grease grooves inside the case does... I will be using a hard lube for these bullet most likely Red rooster.....the mold will be made by Mountain mold .... the only mold that seems right that his not costum is the NEI no; 103 it is a 245 gr. gc design with one grease groove.... these bullet will be push at the most around 2000 fps.... your comment or experience would be welcome.

[Bass Ackward]

I want to buy or have a mold made for my comming 338 federal.... I would like to know wath effect having grease grooves inside the case does... I will be using a hard lube for these bullet most likely Red rooster.....the mold will be made by Mountain mold .... the only mold that seems right that his not costum is the NEI no; 103 it is a 245 gr. gc design with one grease groove.... these bullet will be push at the most around 2000 fps.... your comment or experience would be welcome.


Canuck,

I took some time to think about this and I say you have a quandry. Roster Red is not a slippery lube and usually requires more of it than other types to perform. Increasing groove space to hold this lube with a 10 twist is .... not the way to go. Here, you want as strong a design possible and will need as much bite by the rifling as possible. Then use a slipperier lube.

But fitting bullet to new guns is never a good idea. Dimensions change as the leade will walk a little bit and the angle changes from the tool marks wearing away. This usually means you will need a heavier bullet 500 rounds later and you will have wasted your money. I started with a 210 grain bullet to the base of my neck. 30 days later it was a 220 grain. 30 days later it was a 250. Understand? But how you would fit a rifle that you don't have yet is the something I am not experienced enough to advise you on.

[Bucks Owin]

I'm just curious as to why you're having a custom mold made, if that's the intent. I know there are designs out there for the .338 Win, is this a velocity/weight concern that you have regarding the .338 Fed?

Just wondering....

Dennis

[canuck4570]

Mr. Ackward I will take your advice and I have a rcbs 200 gr. and I will shoot for a while with it before making a decision on a mold.....for Mr. Owin if there is a few molds please tell me up to now the only one that I have found to my taste his the NEI 243 gr... why custom mold well I would like a bigger meplat then the one I have found... the weight does not matter but I will be hunting moose and deer with it so I want to stay in the 200 to 250 range..... if possible could you give me your advice on grooves inside the case is it to avoid or does not matter.....

[canuck4570]

forgot..... Mr. Ackward what in your opinion would be a good lube

[Bass Ackward]

forgot..... Mr. Ackward what in your opinion would be a good lube


Canuck,

Good idea on the factory mold. You can always sell it later and get your money back if it becomes too light.

Lube? That's a dirty word. I hate lubes! But they are a necessary evil.

In my opinion, there isn't any "good" lubes out there. Only adequate lubes. Although some are better than others if they avoid "thickening" agents in cold weather like Lanolin. I suspect that cold weather problems comes from Bee's wax itself. And I suspect that is why most cast benchrest matches are shot in hot weather or you would here more about fliers and poor groups. One year the match was held in Kansas at 105 degrees and everyone was shooting great groups. They couldn't figure out why, but then they will tell you lube had nothing to do with it.

So if cold weather messes up all lubes, how do you get around it? I simply use a lube that will prevent galling and my answer has been bullet design. Use a step down on the nose to create a scraping edge to remove the frozen blackbore in your barrel before that first shot. And the thinest, gooiest lube is probably the best. Lyman Super Molly is only marginal in some cases over 80 degrees, but lubes adequately to 2700 fps below 32 degrees. In the old days some guys just used what they called water pump grease without any Bees wax in cold weather because it would thicken enough to use by itself.

I have some loads that are sub inch preformers up to 50 degrees because I always push the velocity envelope. Over that temperature and they lead some going out to 4". On the other hand, my hot weather lubes can produce sub MOA groups over 2600 fps as long as it is 80 degrees or more. They open up to 6" at 50 degrees with straight olgival designs without the scraper.

And I have no biases to exposing lube grooves. I am careful with my ammunition. I prefer to get lube as far forward on the bullet so that it does the most good. Then you can use less of that darn stuff and have wider, stronger drive bands for gripping the rifling at higher velocity.

Biggest oxymoron in cast bullet shooting is the two words "good lube".

[canuck4570]

I bought my computer about 1 year ago and I have learn more in this time than the some 30 years I have been shooting cast with gentleman like you.....now I know about grease grooves outside the case.... how about grooves inside the case..... thank you Canuck

[StarMetal]

Okay, here's my o pin ion. I'd get the Lee 338 mould. It's cheap, it casts good bullets, and the bullet shoots good for me and others. Hell in fact when you get your rifle and break it in with jacketed I'll send you some of the bullets. This bullet is strong, doen't have the deep and vast number of lube grooves that Mr Ackward (hahah I like that, Mr.Ackward) says won't be anygood in a 10 twist.

Joe

[felix]

The major problem with a "good lube" is that all those I know about cannot be cut with a safe solvent. The urea based polymer lubes are in this category, and should not be used until something can be figured out about their control. Once they build up in a barrel for any reason, you could be in deep doodoo. ... felix

[canuck4570]

for big driving ban well my 3006 with the 10 twist shot the Saeco 190 gr bullet inside a dime at 100 yards with 14.5 gr of unique and in a inches to 1 and a half for velocity in the 2500 ( heat treathed) and has you probably know this bullet has 2 big driving band.....and 2 of my rcbs molds with multiple smaller driving band also shot well but I did not like the lube groove inside the case I was always told that a no no for accuracy.....

[canuck4570]

Mr. Felix do you mean like red rooster and similar hard lube....

[StarMetal]

Felix,

For right now model airplane plastic glue can be used to dissolve urea polymers. Messy I know but it works.

Joe

[felix]

Thanks, Joe. ... felix

[felix]

The red rooster can be cut with a typical gun solvent, right? If so, that lube will not be of a "space aged" type like the "exotic" polymers containing elemental urea. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Thanks, Joe. ... felix



Felix,

Off topic, but I checked out the neighbors Cadilac I told you of. It's an 83 in pretty good shape, but it's V8 with rear wheel drive. I told you long ago I would check it out and got around to doing. I reckon you won't be interested in it since you said V6 with front wheel drive. Sorry, I tried.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I did not like the lube groove inside the case I was always told that a no no for accuracy.....


Canuck,

I never heard about lube grooves inside the neck. If you are talking about down in the powder space, then that's a wives tale that has been around for quite awhile.

I can load you shells that you can fire and you won't know whether there are lube grooves in the neck or down in the case unless you pull the bullet ahead of time. So you take it from there. I will say that for a good high velocity bullet that I intend to use PSB filler for, I would not want it going below the neck because the filler would have to fight to get through the neck junction which would serve little purpose, but that is a specific example.

But in truth, if your choice is to seat into the case or go bore ride, .... have I ever told you how I hate bore rides?

And lose the "Mr." stuff or I'll start calling you son. :grin:

[canuck4570]

understood Bass...... that what I meant lubes grooves in the powder space... all this insight give me a good idea of what kind of molds I will use..... thank Canuck

[felix]

Front wheel V8, 4.9L only, Joe. Car must be in almost perfect shape for me to consider a purchase. Garage kept, AARP or other old fart sticker, would be a perfect specimen, especially if less than 45K miles. ... felix

[Bucks Owin]

for Mr. Owin if there is a few molds please tell me up to now the only one that I have found to my taste his the NEI 243 gr... why custom mold well I would like a bigger meplat then the one I have found... the weight does not matter but I will be hunting moose and deer with it so I want to stay in the 200 to 250 range.....


Hopefully Bruce B will chime in here, I know he has dabbled with .338 dia boolits....

There are molds out there (Lyman, RCBS etc) that don't show up in current catalogs at places like Gunbrokers, E-butt etc....

Not having my .338 Win anymore, I haven't done much searching for molds myself....

Good huntin' amigo,

Dennis

[Bass Ackward]

understood Bass...... that what I meant lubes grooves in the powder space... all this insight give me a good idea of what kind of molds I will use..... thank Canuck


Canuck,

That is the problem with using short action cartridges especially in the smaller bore diameters. They come in short actions. The larger the bore diameter you get, the better off you are because bullet weight either comes from diameter or it has to come from length. Even if you want to go bore ride for weight in a short throated gun, you have a limitation for magazine length and or feeding.

And this is where the Whelen get's it's advantage it over the 358 in my book. But stick a 358 in a long action and you have it made. But then I still prefer that tapered case for cast.

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Sorry guys for the off topic. Felix, I'm not sure it's rear drive, as I didn't look. It is a V8, and it's in pretty decent shape, it was garage kept, and an old fart owned it and didn't drive it. I'll check further, get the mileage, find out if it's rear drive or not. He wants $1000 even for it.

Joe