Lee Challenger or 4 hole Turret press?

[preventec47]

I am about to buy the Breech lock Challenger for $55 or the
4 hole Turret press for $75. If I load for four calibers using
four dies each, I will be spending enough more for the
challenger bushings as I will for shell holders for the
Turret press for them to be the same price.

So is there any reason I would not want to go with
the 4 hole Lee Turret at the same ultimate price ?

There may be other parts needed for the 4 hole turret
press that I am overlooking but is this analogy close
to being correct ?


My basic assumption is that the Challenger bushings allow
you to insert and remove the dies without having to adjust
them. I think the same thing is true of the 4 hole shell holders
for the turrets when you change out calibers... Right ?

[rbstern]

Your assumption about the adjustments is correct. Dies can stay in the bushings or turrets and can remain without adjustment.

You didn't say which calibers you will be loading for. If any of it is pistol, it's a no brainer: Get the turret press. But, you want the Lee Classic Cast Turret, not the older turret press. Cannot stress this enough. Even if you have to spend another $30, the Classic Cast Turret is worlds better than the old style press.

This is the one you want:

http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Large/814175.jpg

[fryboy]

ditto !!
i love the turret !! heck i even love the pro 1000 lolz ( erm still workin on the project loadmaster) but the cast turret is even better than the old aluminum based one and the lil extra cost is well worth it ..may not seem like it now but a few years down the road it surely will be , if u end up not getting the turret i'd recommend the classic cast - it has the possibility to use the breechlock inserts as well ( but think of the turret as 4 bushings in one leaving the whole die set set up !!! )

[MT Gianni]

I bought a 3 hole turret in 1988 and upgraded to a 4 hole a few years back. It is not the only press but gets all the handgun work and much of the rifle. It is tough to wear out the original aluminum let alone the classic cast. Go for the turret.

[thenaaks]

get the lee classic cast press. a few more bucks but waaaaaay better than the regular aluminum/pot metal mess. the classic cast is all cast iron and steel. no junk to break. get a couple extra turrets to keep your dies set up and ready to swap out. i love my classic cast!

[Lee]

The aluminum pot metal mess has loaded several thousand rounds for me. The only bust up was the @#$%&* indexer, which is plastic(should be pot metal, at least it would last) which I also assume is also on the cast iron press.
But hey buy the Beemer.
.
.
.
BTW, buy both. If you reload you will find that eventually an extra press can be a Godsend. (Ooops. sorry not PC. Should have said a non-religious send)
I have 3.
I use a "C" press set up strictly to deprime.
I have an "O" press for short runs and 2zees - 3zees.
I have a turret for 200-250 rounds/hr production runs.
And of course they are all the "Lee ***" brand, as are all the dies.
But they all work for me, so I'll stick with the "corvair"[smilie=2::bigsmyl2:

[RobS]

I vote the lee 4 hole turret press (with a referral to the classic cast model). After reloading with the Aluminum Lee 4 hole turret, the Lee single stage classic cast, a Dillon 550, a Lee Load Master, and a Lee classic cast 4 hole turret, I set my dad up with the Lee Classic Cast 4 hole turret press as his first press.

Here is why:
1. The classic cast design is night and day difference in ruggedness
2. The 4 hole turret can be used as a single stage by taking out the indexing rod where larger rifle rounds can be reloaded or single stage operation can be utilized
3. Capable of reloading pistol rounds or smaller rifle rounds at a good rate
4. The turret press in general is an easy design to work with.

Suggested options

The lee auto disk powder dispenser
The lee auto disk riser for an auto disk powder dispenser
The large and small primer assemblies

[1hole]

"get the lee classic cast press. a few more bucks but waaaaaay better than the regular aluminum/pot metal mess."

I fully agree the Classic series of presses are perhaps the best presses of their type available today, at any price. I disagree with the charactarisation of their others as "pot metal mess."

Dick Lee is an excellant engineer. He knows metals, he knows what works. He designed his presses to use both the best materials for the task AND for the best uses of modern CNC tooling to do the machine work at lowest possible costs. Lee specifies an aluminum alloy that is, pound for pound, stronger and much less "stretchy" than cast iron and steel. He designed his presses with enough metal for the needed strength and let it go at that. (Seems smart to me.)

Anyone thinking those "cheap" presses are weak needs to put a dial indicator on them and compare the deflection readings to massive common iron presses under the normal stresses of reloading. I have, and it was quite surprising to see the difference! My Rock Chucker springs MUCH more when FL sizing than my tiny Lee "C" presses!

"Pot metal" is cheap stuff, it includes some soft, weak alloys. Alumininum alloy castings and forgings are neither cheap nor weak. They are commonly used for aircraft, missles, outboard motors and props, gun actions and trigger guards, scope tubes, auto engine blocks and pistons, etc. If anyone wants to consider those as "pot metal"...well......okay, it's a free country, even to be badly wrong if we wish, but I don't think it's an intellectually defensible position.

[mdi]

Learning to properly adjust dies is very important in reloading and troubleshooting your ammo (mostly chambering issues). I don't see much advantage to using extra bushings/die for quick change, no adjustment installation. Plus I don't think there really is a set it and forget it set up. I can change and adjust dies in my single stage press in just a couple minutes, so there is no real advantage to "preadjusted" dies. Having said that I'd suggest the Lee Classic Turret.

[DLCTEX]

Classic Cast Turret with Safety Prime and Pro Auto Disc powder measure. The riser for extending the Powder measure height will be necessary when using the Safety prime. For larger case rifle rounds the Perfect Powder Measure cycled by hand. These with extra turrets will do all your reloading needs very well. The four hole press uses a square hole in the plastic index bushing, as opposed to the hex drive of the old three hole, and it lasts much longer without replacement. I don't know how much longer as it's still going after many thousand rounds, but it is easily replaced and costs pennies. I bought a package of three and the package is unopened after 3 years.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Classic Cast Turret as DLCTEX said. It works great for me. Pull one 4 hole disc out and put another one in with a different caliber. Quick and easy.

[Cowboy T]

Classic Cast Turret with Safety Prime and Pro Auto Disc powder measure. The riser for extending the Powder measure height will be necessary when using the Safety prime. For larger case rifle rounds the Perfect Powder Measure cycled by hand. These with extra turrets will do all your reloading needs very well. The four hole press uses a square hole in the plastic index bushing, as opposed to the hex drive of the old three hole, and it lasts much longer without replacement. I don't know how much longer as it's still going after many thousand rounds, but it is easily replaced and costs pennies. I bought a package of three and the package is unopened after 3 years.

I have exactly this setup (Classic Turret) with the Pro Auto Disc Powder Measure. The Safety Prime takes a little fiddling to get it perfectly adjusted, but it works. The press and the powder measure are simply wonderful. I did bend one of the little square plastic index bushings with a short-stroke. But it came with a spare, and so I was good to go. Lee sent me a 3-pack anyway under warranty.

And yep, you do need the riser for the powder measure when using the Safety Prime.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have several Lee 1000s and am happy with them. As far as aluminum goes they are plenty strong, one has been in constant use since 1986 and loaded ammo for a pistol club for many years. One burr which was easily filed out in the powder measure was the only hickup, plain sailing after that. The press ain't steel, because steel or iron is not needed for the low stressed parts. The parts that need stell strength are steel, such as the posts, etc.

As far as a single stage press against the turret, I have just bought a Lee Classic Turret. It is a great press (although I can't work out the primer feed ( I just put the primers in with my right hand and don't handle boolits or any sticky stuff with that hand. I ddin't really give it a chance and I will have to go back and have another go.

Loading 100 cases:

Single stage:
Decap and prime: insert and remove 100 times, work press 100 times
expand: insert and remove 100 times, work press 100 times
charge case with powder: handle 100 cases or put those cases
boolit seat: insert and remove 100 times, work press 100 times
crimp: if done separately, insert and remove 100 times, work press 100 times

This can be reduced somewhat by using an Lee Auto Disk powder measure, expand and charging case done in same operation (I have always said with pistol stuff, if it don't go in an Auto Disk, it ain't gonna go!)

Lee Classic Turret

insert case, operate press 4 times, remove case. Do this 100 times and you have 100 rounds loaded.


Totals:

Single stage quickest scenario with separate crimp: Insert and remove cases 400 times, operate press 400 times.

Classic Turret press same scenario: Insert and remove cases 100 times, operate press 400 times.

[Heavy lead]

I reloaded many years on the cheaper regular plain Jane 3 hole turret press for pistol calibers (and .223 as well) and never had a lick of trouble. IMO it is the way to go for pistol calibers as the next step up from single stage and way easier of a learning curve than a progressive. I then aquired a 4 hole when they came out and liked it so much I converted the 3 hole to a 4 and had two running with 7 different calibers. Switchover is a snap. Then I bought the Classic 4 hole and sold both the cheaper turrets, still in good shape, a might smoother than they used to be, but nevertheless still tight and in good order. After slightly less that a year I've retired it to go all progressive with 3 total LNL's, anyway, the Classic is a better press, but the older aluminum press I believe is absolutely adequate for the pistol cartridges, in fact preferable in the fact that it has a shorter stroke. The stroke on the classic is long, long enough to load any long cartridges such as the ultra mags and such. So if you need or will need the power and length for rifle cartridges by all means get the classic, if you will only be doing pistol it's not necessary. If I only had the room or money for just one press it would certainly be the Classic Turret as you can do anything with it with just a new turret head. Can't comment on the primer feed as I never used one on it, just single feed the primers on all of them, and it is 4 times faster than any single stage setup.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I forgot to mention that the stroke is, ratherrrrrrrrrrrrrr long :) The fact that the wooden ball ended up coming off in my hand everytime I didn't pay attention was also a bit of a pita. I also have a LnL AP, but need to buy a swag of things to get it going.

[Heavy lead]

I forgot to mention that the stroke is, ratherrrrrrrrrrrrrr long :) The fact that the wooden ball ended up coming off in my hand everytime I didn't pay attention was also a bit of a pita. I also have a LnL AP, but need to buy a swag of things to get it going.

I here you about the ball coming off, same with the Lee mould handles, thank goodness for JB Weld!
Best get that LNL going, they are awesome machines, I've got three going now, and they are awesome. THE only thing I would change on them is to have a turret, tool head, what have you pop off like the Lee or Dillon instead of the individual bushings.

I wish Lee would come out with a pistol conversion kit that would provide 3 shortened posts and a shortened center post that turns the turret, then you could smoke that baby. Of course the LNL would be better as a short stroke too, if you weren't using it for rifle.

[RobS]

As far as a single stage press against the turret, I have just bought a Lee Classic Turret. It is a great press (although I can't work out the primer feed ( I just put the primers in with my right hand and don't handle boolits or any sticky stuff with that hand. I ddin't really give it a chance and I will have to go back and have another go.

.

Here is a link that a fellow wrote up on describing a fix for the safety primer. I did it when I had a Lee Classic Turret press with the saftey prime system and it worked well.

http://forums.loadmastervideos.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32&sid=c04520c6bd998289f3a38b9eaf62e7f0

and another link:

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=404415

[DLCTEX]

If you don't need the leverage you can adjust the handle to shorter length on the Classic Cast, thereby shortening the travel of your hand= shorter stroke.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you don't need the leverage you can adjust the handle to shorter length on the Classic Cast, thereby shortening the travel of your hand= shorter stroke.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh! I cannot see the forest for the trees!! How devilshly simple.

[rbstern]

In addition to better priming features, the Classic Cast Turret also has MUCH better spent primer handling than the original 3 and 4 hole turret presses. I started with a 3 hole press, use the Classic Cast Turret now, and there simply is no comparison. One is an adequate tool that gets the job done, the other is an exceptional product that will exceed your expectations in a reloading press.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The primer disposal is a good feature of the Classic T/P, I really like it. I used a Rockchucker for years which had a wrap around bucket/basket/catcher thingo which caught most of them. I fitted the case kicker which is an excellent addition, but most primers were ejected into the case collector tray, or on the floor. PITA!

[lisaniel]

Thanx for sharing

Job Cast (http://www.labortimetracker.com/)

[Dale53]

I had the original Lee Turret press for many years with satisfaction. It was a dandy.

However, the Lee Classic Cast Turret is, without question, a superior press. It DOES have a longer stroke but that allows reloading full length rifle cases and still retain auto advance (couldn't do that with the original press). I have and regularly use two Dillon 550B's but for small runs use the Lee - you can change calibers in SECONDS and for small runs the Lee gets the nod.

The Lee Classic Turret is the one I recommend to reloaders with a budget - you get decent production (150-200 rounds per hour after learning how) and yet it is simple to operate and is "user friendly" (not true with all presses). It should last for several generations.

FWIW
Dale53

[Cowboy T]

I've got a Classic Turret Press, but I can usually only get 100 rounds/hour out of it (.38/357, .45LC). Any suggestions/tips for picking up the pace to, say, 150? I have both the Pro Auto-Disk Powder Measure w/ the riser, and the Safety Prime system, installed.

[rbstern]

I've got a Classic Turret Press, but I can usually only get 100 rounds/hour out of it (.38/357, .45LC). Any suggestions/tips for picking up the pace to, say, 150? I have both the Pro Auto-Disk Powder Measure w/ the riser, and the Safety Prime system, installed.

Cowboy, is your press indexing correctly? Is the casing going into the dies without fuss? Is the Safety Prime system dispensing a primer when you click it?

If those things are all working properly, then the rate is pretty much a "time and motion" issue. You've got to look at how much movement your hands and body are doing, and figure out ways to shorten those movements. Where the components are, and how easily you complete each motion dictate how fast you go.

I set a container (shoebox or something similar) with my brass on the bench to my far left, but still within easy reach. Also to my left, but inboard of the brass container, is a container of bullets. It's helpful if these are wide, flat containers, so I don't have to reach into a small space to grab bullets or brass. Directly in front of me, mounted to my bench just below the press, is a poly bin with a home made round counter lid above it. I drop the finished round onto a trap door, push the trap door, it trips a counter, and the finished round drops into a poly bin below.

If I am focused and stay consistent, I get about 200 per hour. If I really push it, trying to go as fast as I safely can, with deliberaly fast motions, the rate goes up to 300 per hour, but at that point, it becomes fatiguing and I don't enjoy it as much.

[Dale53]

rbstern makes excellent points. However, I suggest you do NOT push. Use your NATURAL speed and it will increase gradually as you get better at the task.

Stern's time and motion, if applied thoughtfully, WILL lead to better production.

To consistently do more than 150-200 per hour, tho', you will need a true progressive (like the Dillon 550B, Dillon 650, or the Hornady Lock n Load AP).

FWIW
Dale53

[Phil A]

I'm not a fan of cheap zinc alloy or "pot" metal castings for press linkages and levers. The more recent Lee presses made with steel linkages and levers are still a great value (classic series, breech lock). I like the improvements John Lee is doing in that area.

Go for the classic cast turret. - Phil

[Lonerider]

I have the Classic Cast Turret Press. I have had it for about a year now. I too went through the process of....Challenger kit or turret press?.....Challenger kit or turret press?......went about 6 months before I made my choice. I was mainly concern about strength and durability. I really like the idea of the challengers bushing. Up until this time, I had a RCBS Jr.....no complaints, just wanted something a little more time effiecent yet strong.

Read and re-read all the +'s abd -'S on the turret and the challenger. I was still apprehensive with the turret because of all the moving parts. With the challenger, you can get it in a kit form for just few dollars more than the turret by its self. I was starting over in reloading, as I had to replace all of my equipment. So the kit was very, very, tempting.

I finally went for the Classic Cast Iron 4 hole Turret Press. I only load for the 45-70 Gov't at the moment, so the challenger press would have been just find. In fact I use the turret as a single stage, by removing the index rod and rotating the dies by hand, I like that I have that option. I tend to be a batch loader. So this feature works great for me.

However I do plan on loading .45 Long colts as well as .45 acp in the future. So I like the idea of punching out lots of ammo in a single session by just replacing the index rod.

I also like the fact the press has Cast Iron base, its just a personal thing. I am sure the other turret will just find.

I am not a high volume loader, so I do not need a true progressive loader. I am content with the set up I have.

I am actually considering getting a challenger press also (maybe in kit form) to do the odds and ends things, like sizing, decapping, or maybe priming. Remeber, I mostly batch load. I will clean and trim my brass, clean out the primer pockest and so on and on.

I also have a the 'do dads' (auto power measure, safety primer, extensions.....)but don't have them mounted yet. I looking forward to further enjoyment.

I believer either one will be great. If you have nothing and finances is tight....then go for the challenger and the add the 4-hole cast turret later.


Lonerider

[flashhole]

This first picture shows both the Lee Classic Cast Singe Stage and the Classic Turret on my primary bench. Both are super presses for the money. The second pic shows how I set up my Classic Turret to load for 45-70. I do the same thing for 223. I use the funnel in conjunction with the Lee Dipper Cups for charging. I don't trust automatic powder dispensers. I can easily do 150 rounds an hour if I start with pre-prepped brass.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/GuideGun/MainReloadingBench.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/GuideGun/FunnelforClassicPress.jpg

[Lonerider]

Flashole....thats a nice set up you have there, I'm kinda envious. I also load for the 45-70. I do not have a powder measure yet, just using the lee dippers for now . Been working fine, but will need to be more specific on my cast hunting loads. So what is the powder measure you are using?

As to the origingal post, another reason for getting a single stage presss was to have a seperate station for bullet sizing with Lee's sizer die. Do you use your single stage for that?
And does having both set up really help?

Lonerider

[flashhole]

The powder measure on my bench is the Redding 3BR. It's a nice measure but I don't use it all that often. I like the dipper cups. I have two powders that I use for my 45-70, Varget and H4895. 4895 is the better of the two but both are good. I only load 1 bullet, the Hornady 350 grain Round Nose. My gun is a Marlin Guide Gun with the ported barrel. I tried a bunch of different bullets and the 350 grainer worked the best so I bought a bunch on closeout at Midway. It's very accurate in my gun.

Regarding the single stage - I really like single stage presses. You should note the other two presses on my bench are Redding Ultramags. I generally process and size my brass as a separate step prior to loading. I set up the Lee with a universal decapper then wash all the brass in hot soapy water prior to sizing it. Cleaning it this way really minimizes possible neck distortion on the down stroke of the ram when the sizing ball is pulled back through the neck. I'm something of a brass prep fanatic and uniform my flash holes and primer pockets at the same time I trim. Preping the brass in batches on a single stage is how I've always done it.

[Lonerider]

Thanks Flashole, that was good info for me.

I think your second paragraph will be a help for Preventec47 also, as he is considering the challenger press.

Your post also helps me to remember, we do not all need the lates, biggest, baddest, and most expensive reloading equipment out there.

A single stage may be all that we need.

Just deepends on our particuliar make up.

[MT Gianni]

I've got a Classic Turret Press, but I can usually only get 100 rounds/hour out of it (.38/357, .45LC). Any suggestions/tips for picking up the pace to, say, 150? I have both the Pro Auto-Disk Powder Measure w/ the riser, and the Safety Prime system, installed.

I put a pinhole in the top of a STP bottle and to get no more than a drop at a time out. I lube the turrets with it when they go in the press and find that helps my output to flow better.

[geargnasher]

Classic Cast Turret with Safety Prime and Pro Auto Disc powder measure. The riser for extending the Powder measure height will be necessary when using the Safety prime. For larger case rifle rounds the Perfect Powder Measure cycled by hand. These with extra turrets will do all your reloading needs very well. The four hole press uses a square hole in the plastic index bushing, as opposed to the hex drive of the old three hole, and it lasts much longer without replacement. I don't know how much longer as it's still going after many thousand rounds, but it is easily replaced and costs pennies. I bought a package of three and the package is unopened after 3 years.

Just my two cents, since this is kind of a poll: What DLC and Charlie2tracks said. You can change a turret in exactly the same time as one die in a breechlock press. Changing primer sizes takes three seconds, including the Safetyprime dispenser. I can easily load 100 rounds in 30 minutes, but it takes about a minute to refill the primer tray for the next 100. So that's 200 rounds in one hour and two minutes, or actually 1:05 if you count the initial disk setup and filling the powder hopper. Then I can turn around and load another 200 in a different caliber, primer size, and powder/disk type in another hour and five minutes, give or take. I even load rifle stuff on the turret, although the auto-index won't work with longer calibers. I made .30-30 work with the auto-index by grinding 1/4" off the bottom of the seating die and I use decap/partial size, universal flaring die, rifle charging die, seat/crimp (one operation) for my rifle stuff.

One more thing, even the powder measure riser that Lee sells is too short to clear the safety-prime unless you ALSO get one of the base-swivel thingys to keep the measure pointed toward the center of the turret. I made my own riser which is 6" long and really gets it out of the way, see pics:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16383&d=1255586769
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16301&d=1255230423
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16300&d=1255230360

Gear

[Ekalb2000]

Gear, that is some injunuity. I never figured out why Lee didnt make that riser about two inches taller. Cause no matter how tight you get it, it always rotates.

[flashhole]

That is pretty clever but it looks a might heavy.