.32 H&R woes

[tomf52]

After a long search I have found a load my Marllin 1894 32 likes. Problem is that the first two five shot groups were outstanding (3/4 to 1" at fifty yards), the subsequent shooting the groups opened up badly. It was really hot in the sun and the barrel did get hot. There was no leading visible in the barrel. At first I thought the scope had loosened but this was not the case. Any ideas why this would happen? Could it have been the hot barrel? Groups went from 1" to 4" like somebody flipped a switch. Thanks for any help with this.

[snake river marksman]

Is that a micro groove barrel? I don't have any experience with it, but I've read that micro groove barrels and cast bullets don't work well together. I would think it wouldn't take much lead to cause a problem. Heat is probably part of the problem, but I doubt it's the whole issue. Clean it really well, shoot it from cold to hot again and see what happens.

[45 2.1]

After a long search I have found a load my Marllin 1894 32 likes. Problem is that the first two five shot groups were outstanding (3/4 to 1" at fifty yards), the subsequent shooting the groups opened up badly. It was really hot in the sun and the barrel did get hot. There was no leading visible in the barrel. At first I thought the scope had loosened but this was not the case. Any ideas why this would happen? Could it have been the hot barrel? Groups went from 1" to 4" like somebody flipped a switch. Thanks for any help with this.

Too hot of barrel and it probably would help if the boolit was slightly bigger in diameter.

[BABore]

Did accuracy return after the bbl was cooled back down?

[tomf52]

Rifling is ballard. Bullet diameter is .314. Like an idiot I didn't wait for it to cool but shot off a lot of trial batch remnants to free up the cases for more intelligent pursuit of loads for the MArlin and a new SP101 Ruger in that caliber. I'm going back with the barrel nice and cool without cleaning it to see if heat alone was the culprit. The barrel was hot enough that it was almost too hot to touch, between the hot sun and the ten rounds put quickly through it. I inspected the barrel very closely just now and can seen no leading at all. In fact it is one of the cleanest barrels I have ever seen after all the shooting I did yesterday. Range time will have to wait until Tues. Not going there with all the weekwend vacationing yahoos that will be there.

[mroliver77]

The barrel heat in itself should not be a problem, it is the expansion and "bedding" if you call it that on a lever gun. If it shoots good cool and then bad when heated you have something like the magazine tube etc messing with harmonics or just pushing the barrel in a way that is not conducive to accuracy. Paco Kelly did a nice piece on accurizing the Marlin levergun.
Jay

[Mk42gunner]

Tom,

I'd clean the barrel, then redo the tests. Do a few slow, then heat the barrel with a few groups. Your bullets were .314", what is the groove diameter of the barrel?

This could be caused by a couple of things:

1. Barrel heat.

2. As Jay said, all the stuff hanging from the barrel.

Could it be too much lube???


Let us know when you figure it out.

Robert

[Marine Sgt 2111]

The Marlin 1894 that I have has tight spots in the barrel right where the front and rear sights are. Must have been a gorilla working the mill vise that day. While the final size on the lead ball from slugging was .3122, I'm willing to bet that between the tight spots it was every bit of .313.

That being said, could you be building up lead deposits in the tight spots and while the first and second shots are fine theres enough build up after that to affect accuracy?

I don't know about heat being a real problem. When I was stationed at 29 Palms, CA in the '80s, I used to shoot my sharps with ww alloy bullets and NRA lube in 100 degree weather plus without adversely affecting accuracy.

Oh and my 1894 is in .32-20.

[Bret4207]

Each gun will handle heat and cold differently. There's a very good chance your bedding is the problem and some lubes don't handle heat well. With no leading I'd be inclined to think bedding to start with.

[hyoder]

I shoot a Marlin in 32 H&R in Pistol Cartridge Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette using the Lyman 311419 sized .313" over 6.3 grs. of AA #7. Shoots 2" or better at 100m off bags, which is a far cry better than I can shoot offhand.

[tomf52]

Bret4207 - I have floated the forearm and there is what I believe sufficient play in the mag tube as well. Before I floated the forearm I was having all kinds of trouble holding any type of group together. Had to take about 5/32" off the length of the forearm to get it "loose". It came with such an overly long forearm that the forearm cap popped when I removed the cap screws. Very anxious to get to the range and try it cold but this is the weekend and I won't go near the place with the crowds there.

[Wayne Smith]

Tom, did you by chance check for a lube star during your firing? Might you have been running out of lube in the heat?

[tomf52]

Got back to the range today. Same loads, gun cool and bore not cleaned since last episode. Rifle shot the same bad groups as when I left there the last visit. Barrel heat is obviously not the problem. Am presently scrubbing out the barrel to start fresh with a different lube (Felix). Barrel appeared to be spotless and I could see no lead coming out on any of the patches. Also tried Marble's tang sight to eliminate the scope. This also made no difference.

[Wayne Smith]

If the lead was not cleaned out of the barrel it effected the accuracy of every subsequent shot. Hot or cold, lead strips lead from the passing boolit.

[tomf52]

Wayne - Finished cleaning the barrel and there was NO lead in it. This one really has me going nuts.

[Bret4207]

Tom, I'd start with the basics- make sure the butt stock isn't loose, pass a tight fitting patch through the barrel and see if you feel any constrictions, especially near the sight cuts. Just because you aren't getting leading doesn't mean you don't have a tight spot. Check the muzzle for dings or anything that might be bad for a soft boolit. Check the barrel/receiver to make sure nothing feels loose. You might also want to try a different scope just for giggles. If none of that shows any signs of a problem then we go from there to the boolit. Goods groups followed by groups opening kind of point towards a build up of some kind to me which can be fit or lube or leading.

[Bass Ackward]

My guess is that the bore condition changed from the heat. Some will, some won't, yours did.

Hot steel is more vulnerable to wear. You also could have had stresses in the steel that changed your bore's condition in a way that you could feel with another slug. Worth it for peace of mind anyway.

When you say bad groups, ask yourself to define "bad". Does bad mean that that load went back to being comparable to other poor loads? Or are they worse?

If you just lost the edge, my guess is that you are going to have to rework the load. And if you change lubes, good chance you'll have to do that anyway.

If the groups were truly worse than anything you saw before, then the slug will answer that one.

Either way, you might as well accept the fact, that for all intents and purposes, you are starting over which will make the repetition of this process more .... understandable / bearable. If it makes it any better, instead of a slow bleed on accuracy loss, you got it in one fell swoop. Now the bore is more likely to be stable and ready for the next stage of it's life cycle. The only concern is will the change be for the better .... or worse.

This is why I hate 10 shot groups.

[WARD O]

Rifles with two piece stocks are also very sensitive to cheek/head pressure and generally how you hold/support the rifle. Too much pressure here or not enough there can cause flexing and loss of accuracy. Be sure you are using a consistent technique in your shooting.

Ward

[tomf52]

Got back to the range today wiith identical loads except for the lube. Replaced the Lee Tumble Lube with Felix. Groups were not quite as tight as experienced with the first ten rounds of the other day, but they were consistent throughout the twenty five rounds fired. When I say they were not quite as tight I'm talking about 1 1/2" as compared to 3/4" to 1". Go figure! I still don't understand rhis.

[excess650]

What bullet, size, powder, primer, etc?

Are you crimping consistently?

[Dark Helmet]

I had a bad crimp problem, had to trim 500 new cases to minimum to get a consistant crimp.

[tomf52]

RCBS 98 gr rnfp bullet, Bullseye powder, CCI 500 primer, Starline brass. As a consistent crimp as I know how to do. All cases trimmed to a common length, deburred in and out. Funny you asked about the crimp as last night I loaded some up for the first time without a crimp as I load these one at a time through the ejection port for target shooting. I realize this is not a target gun but would like some reaonably consistent accuracy for the caliber and firearm involved. It's a really neat little rifle, my most favorite of my collection.

[excess650]

You might try no crimp, and seating the bullet to engage the rifling as the lever closes. My loading of this caliber was for a S&W Model 16, and I was using AA#7 under Lyman 311008.

I load my 32-20s and 30-30s with no crimp and engaing the rifling. Recoil isn't an issue, and there is enough neck tension to prevent setback when working through the magazine tube.

Have you tried SR4756 or Hogdon Universal?

You might also try the Lee c309-113f soupcan with a gas check.

[Dave B]

I have been working on loads for 32 mag Marlin also. I recently tried 6.2 gr aa7 and was impressed. Bullseye is a fast pistol powder, and I think a slower powder in a long bbl rifle is probably better.

[35remington]

One thing my low velocity 25-20 loads are inordinately sensitive to is too much lubricant. Since the velocity of these loads is likely similar to yours, the comparison may be relevant.

I'll get a few good groups, then they start to enlarge with flyers, then get really big, then settle down as the lube purges, then get large after starting to throw flyers. Too much lube is also first shot sensitive from a cold barrel even if the barrel has residue from the previous firing using the same lubricant.

Even in rifle length barrels, too much lube is a problem more often than too little with mild loads such as yours. Not saying this is the cause, or the only likely cause, but it's worth looking into.

In such cases, a moderate application of a "crappy" lube like LLA will sometimes give the desired results. FWIW.

Good luck. You'll run it down, I'm sure.

[tomf52]

35 remmington - I think there may be more than a little something in what you are saying about too much lube. Got back to the range with identical loads except they were lubed with Felix lube and not the double coat of LLA. Much better results. Oops, sorry, they weren't identical, I cut the powder down .2 gr so I really have to up that back up to make a fair comparison but I think the lube has too much to do with it and may be the culprit. Another reason to get back to the range. This retirement is O.K. We have a ssmall group of retired guys that congregate at the range almost evert morning. Makes for fun shooting.

[Bret4207]

Tom, try a slower powder, take your pick but there are several better ones out there like 2400, Lil' Gun, Blue Dot, etc. Look over the rifle data in the manuals and try some, or better read Ken Waters "Pet Loads" articles on the 32-20 and 32 H+R. I think the 2 react similarly.

[tomf52]

Got back to the raange today with loads similar to the original problem rounds. This time I switched the lube to Felix and did not crimp after seating.. Ran them up in the crimp die only far enough to gently remove the crimp. Also ran a dry Bore Snake twice through the barrel. First two five shot groups were awful, about 4 1/2". Third group settled right into about 1 1/2". Subsequent groups were incredible, the best with four of the five shots touching and the fifth a called flyer (honest!). This is a complete reversal of what originally happened but I don't really give a hoot if it continues to shoot this way. Still with the Bullseye powder. On next trip back I'm trying the Marble's tang sight and see what I can do with that. Will post any unusual happenings. Thanks for all the help from all of you.

[Bret4207]

Hmmm, people will tell you I'm full of it, but I've seen certain guns take several dozen shots with a new lube to "condition" the bore for that lube and to settle down and shoot. You might have one of those guns.

[tomf52]

Bret - That concept was proposed to me by a shooter, a well respected E Harris, on the other cast bullet forum. I didn't give it a lot of credence until now. With your mention of it and my experience yesterday at the range it is something I will watch closer and maybe even experiment with a little. Strange little devices, these firearms. At least now I have a load I can shoot this rifle with and can move on to playing with my new 1894CSS, although thaat one shot great right out of the box, takiing some of the challenge out of the game.

[Bret4207]

Tom, I know it's a fact with 22 lr. I think it's fact with some CF rifles. If Ed says there's something to it, I'd listen.

[19112TAP]

I'm using a RCBS 98 SWC with AA#7 out of my Marlin 1894 & Ruger Single Six with great results, I started out with 6.1 gr and have worked up to 6.5 gr using std primer, starline brass with a heavy crimp my lube is NRA formula sized to .313.