My first IDPA shoot

[mroliver77]

My shootin pal has a cousin into this type shooting and invited us to try. We went Sun and found it to be a day for qualifying or something. I shot 120 rounds of .45acp. Most of the guys shot 9mm with hi cap mags and kinda looked down their noses at the 1911s that we shot. Les (the cousin) learned everything at classes and the range and is not sold at all on the cast boolit idea.My pal took a gun to a cookout to show him how good they work and it tied up further convincing him of their worthlessness. Then found out a rubber buffer had chewed up and clogged his gun. Anyhow I took my Colt Commander that NEVER has issues. The first time I shot it malfed on the last boolit, first mag.Of course Les was there to help me dig it out. After this it ran perfect. When they scored my 20 yard shooting they were laughing and saying DANG! I thought "Oh boy" Actually I had out shot them all on this course! I felt bad I had dropped a few out of the center. It was hot and my glasses were fogged and floaters were in front of my eye so I aimed at the middle of the blur and concentrated on trigger squeeze. All in all I did pretty good. I lost the round that jammed so could not troubleshoot it. It was a fun day and I might just try it again. It sure taught me that I need to practice some areas of pistolcraft.
Jay

[KYCaster]

I'll probably catch some flack for this, but........it seems to me that some of those guys look down their noses at lots of things, 1911's being just one of them.

Seems like anything that might make your gun more more reliable, more accurate or more comfortable to shoot is banned.

And GOD FORBID you act like you're having FUN. That just WILL NOT be tolerated! Check your sense of humor at the door, put on your game face and be ready for the range officer's critique at the end of your run cause "That'll get ya killed on the street!"

I admit that my exposure to IDPA is very limited, having shot at only three matches, but those were all at different clubs with different people in charge and over a period of six years, so I've concluded that my experience is not out of the ordinary.

I do see many of the same guys at other venues run by different organizations and find them all to be relatively stable, ordinary, pleasant human beings. So I'm at a loss to explain the Jeckel/Hyde transformation I've seen.

And they tell me I can't come to play with them again if I don't pay to join their organization, so I'll just go shoot somewhere else.

As always YMMV.

Jerry

[mike in co]

here is the humorous part of idpa oem vs today.

with ipsc going strong on hi capacity guns from 9 to 45, the single stack 1911 gunsmiths were begining to hurt. go look who started idpa....1911 'smiths looking for work.


i would never pay money to shoot a match were perfectly legal guns were artificially limited to x number of rounds. idpa started that way.why change mags when i have plenty of ammo in the mag in the gun. why hold on to an empty mag....i have no ammo in my back pocket, but more loaded mags.
artifical rules with no real world application.

ok other than that have fun.

the glocks have run the 1911's out of contention...they probably have a class for stock or 1911's to keep them around.

i shoot club ipsc, and once in a while we shoot an idpa qualifier. ya want fun go shoot ipsc. from full race to stock classes. ya want unrealistic rules shoot idpa.

just my opinion

mike in co

[crabo]

ya want fun go shoot ipsc. from full race to stock classes. ya want unrealistic rules shoot idpa.

just my opinion

mike in co

This is exactly why I never got interested enough to shoot IDPA. Now, I can't move good enough to be competetive in ISPC.

[KYCaster]

This is exactly why I never got interested enough to shoot IDPA. Now, I can't move good enough to be competetive in ISPC.

Come on, Crabo!! With six divisions, six classes and at least that many categories eligible for a trophy, surely you can find some way to get your name at the top of SOME list. Personally, I like Revolver...C Class...Super Senior. Not much competition there...almost guaranteed a first place finish. :drinks:

Heck, if I can't win any other way, I'll just outlive everybody else! [smilie=w:


Jerry

[knifemaker]

My experience with IDPA has been just the opposite of the above members. I joined the North Valley Shooters Assc. out of Gridley, CA. and the vast majority of members are there for the fun and keeping up their skills in shooting.
There is even one member who is well up in his 80's and still shooting. He can not move fast, but he still can be accurate.
I am a 1911 shooter and there is a class for just 1911's and some modifications are allowed to inhance accuracy and reliable function, just no fancy full race guns. Just about 1/4 of the shooters are 1911.
I have found that a large majority of the members welcome new comers and are willing to help them to enjoy the sport and improve their skills. Very similar to the members I encountered in the late 70's-80's when I used to shoot PPC.
Any disparage i have seen concerning calibers, are made by us 1911 shooters who accuse the 9mm and 40 S&W shooters of shooting "wimpy" calibers.
I am a retired law enforcement firearms instructor and have seen some difference in teaching certain shooting tactics, but I still feel that the IDPA courses are great learning tools for the civilian shooter to improve his shooting skills that might end up saving his life down the line. Our club takes turns on members setting up the course of fire matches and there is great varation in the matches and over 50% require quite a bit of movement tactics.
We even have several police firearms instructors who are members that shoot every month to round out their skills to take back to their departments for training other officers.
I guess it may make a difference on which club you join and the quality of the club officers on setting up the matches and being smart enough to welcome and encourage new members to make the experience worthwhile.

[509thsfs]

knifemaker, I agree with you. I've shot both IPSC and IDPA and prefer IDPA. IPSC was fun to "run and gun", but IDPA honed basic defense skills. Actually, when I shot IDPA probably 50% of us were law enforcement. We sometimes shot the courses with duty gear as well as concealed. It was a fun group too. I got out of IPSC when the race guns and mods came out. Though I see IPSC brought in a stock class since then to try and re attract more shooters again since they were losing so many in the past.

[Shepherd2]

I've got to agree with Knifemaker too. I don't know how many matches I've shot in at different clubs but it's in the 100s. For the most part all I see are a bunch of shooters out to have a good time. I see a lot of kidding and joking around but I've never seen anyone put down because of their choice of firearm or equipment.

My son and I were interested in IDPA back in the 90s so we decided to go observe a match. We were walking around when one of the founders of IDPA approached us. We were easy to spot since we were the only 2 without guns. He answered all our questions then walked us around and explained what was going on at several stages. We just happened to have our gear with us so we shot our first IDPA match that day. After the welcome we got we had to.

I've seen that same level of friendliness time and again. When anyone takes a new shooter to a match all they have to do is tell the Safety Officer at a stage that they have a new shooter and then everything is put on hold until the newby is made comfortable and feels he/she is ready to give it a go. Really, everyone bends over backwards to help the new person out.

[anachronism]

I went to watch an IDPA match & never returned. I don't have the poper equipment to join in. Even my box stock pistols had to be classified with the "enhanced" guns. My two Springfield XDs are illegal for production class, they have to be shot in enhanced, with the modified guns. My Colt 1911 has a Bomar, My two Springfields 1911s have Novaks, and one has a coned bushing, the coned 1911 is totally illegal in all classes. My GP100 has a 6 in barrel. My Redhawk has a 7-1/2 in barrel. My semi-retired 4 in 686 is apparently the only legal production handgun I own. The group I watched had two categories, Glock shooters & uncouth savages.

[mike in co]

for those supporting idpa, please note i said oem/original idpa.

some shooting is better than none

as an example, would you carry a cz75 which is stock 15plus 1then( now 16plus 1), with only 10 in the mag and relaod with another 10...........
these were some of the stupid politically correct rules of thier game when they started.

i'm sure things have changed....but the shooters at my club shoot ipsc now that they have tried both.

mike in co

[KYCaster]

My experience with IDPA has been just the opposite...
...I guess it may make a difference on which club you join and the quality of the club officers on setting up the matches and being smart enough to welcome and encourage new members to make the experience worthwhile.


Well, there's the whole thing right there, Knifemaker. The first IDPA match I attended was run by the SO from Hell. Look up "Range Nazi" in the dictionary and you'll find his picture. He's since been black-balled from every club around here. His own father banned him from their gun shop because he alienated customers.

The second match wasn't much better. The guy running it was a disciple of the Range Nazi and very nearly ran that club into the ground. They finally got rid of him and the crew running it now are a pretty good bunch.

A big part of my problem was my own ignorance concerning the equipment rules. Like Anachronism, I found that I didn't have a gun or holster they would accept, and I'm not going to buy another gun just so I can play the game.

I also don't like the idea of mandatory membership in order to participate. It's not like the NRA where there are other benefits to membership besides competition. Seems to me the portion of the match fee that Mr. Wilson gets from every shooter would be enough, but apparently it isn't.

Jerry

[BruceB]

Living in the Northwest Territories of Canada, we had a huge club membership of over 400 shooters in a small town of perhaps 13,000 people. The club was an "umbrella" organization which tried very hard to offer all the current LEGAL approaches to shooting sports, mostly because Canadian law made it extremely difficult to use handguns (in particular) for any legal purpose whatever except structured competition. Casual plinking? Forget it. Carry your handgun in the wilds? Forget it. Defensive carry? Forget it. Just taking your handgun from its LOCKED storage required a special permit, and you couldn't even use it on your own land. ONLY at a government-approved range. Clear?

So...we instituted an IPSC program, under the auspices of the Club.

As one who served in every elected position in that Club over many years, I can say that the ONLY program I ever regretted setting-up was the IPSC-type format.

Never have I seen such an arrogant, macho-posturing, foul-mouthed bunch of wanna-be bad-ass "gunslingers" such as descended upon our organization. These people not only alienated other club members, but the impression they left with the general public who had the misfortune to see some of their asininity was frankly abysmal. It is impossible to imagine a worse set of "ambassadors" for the shooting sports. Women, children, folks of somewhat gentler persuasions than these would-be terrors-of-the-tundra,were grossly offended by the actions and vocalizing of the shooters in this game.

I'm a life-long miner, and miners are not noted as shrinking violets by comparison to ANY group on the face of this old globe. I hear the filthy language an a daily (hourly) basis. Kids and ladyfolk should NOT have to hear such language, but at that time and place it was rampant on the firing line.

THere was not even ONE positive attribute in this group, to which we as a club could point with pride in our programs and our shooters They were a net, and severe, drain upon our operation.

Another reflection occurred when I met members of a Cowboy-Action group, ostensibly offering "security service" at a Big Reno Gun Show. These posturing cretins wore solid-black clothes, and black leather goods suitably imbellished with pounds of silver on holsters, belts, boots (plus spurs) and HATS....one could be forgiven for thinking he'd blundered onto the set of a '50s horse opera, from appearances' sake. These persons would stalk the hallways he of BTGS, stalking in their "gunfighter" crouches and silver conchos, clinking the spurs, not knowing that most Show Attendee
regard then as decorations rather than real shooters or someone actually making a contribution to the operation.

I truly think that the generation we had to deal with in IPSC is utterly warped by watching TV Programs produced by people who know much less than the shooters themselves.

Based on this experience, I steer clear of any of these rule-bound and poseur-plagued "sports" They now have no interest whatever.

[mroliver77]

Let me make it clear that even though our guns were looked on as "old school" we were treated decently and the folks running the event were very helpful. I am not good with structured events but was OK with this group. As has been said I think my skills need honed in some areas and this type shooting will help. I am planning on setting up my own scenarios at home to work on it and will try a few more events. I like a reason to get a gun out!
They mentioned a two gun shoot and we asked if the M14 type would work. Mebbe we are old school LOL
Jay

[Forester]

It is pretty disheartening to hear some of what is being relayed here.

I hold Master Classification in IDPA, and am A class in USPSA/IPSC. Suffice to say I have shot more than a few of both of these matches. I won my Master classification by winning Expert at one of the 3 biggest IDPA matches in the country.

The deal with both of these games is to remember they are exactly that...GAMES. Of course they are not real or at times particularly realistic, who would voluntarily play a game that had real bullets flying back at you? If you want realistic, join the military, become a cop, or just wander the slums of say...Chicago.

If you have rules then at some point you place limits on equipment, that is why there are so many different divisions in each of these games. You can bring, and be competitive (if your up to it) darn near any gun you want. Maybe that Single Action Army is going to cause you some headaches but you can shoot it if you want. I shot a 1911 in both games, it is a built up Les Baer Frame and Slide and is totally impractical for any purpose other than playing these games, but boy will it sing in the right hands.

More about Equipment, forget the division names, take a look at the actual rules involved, just because its called "enhanced" does not mean you are going to play at any real disadvantage to other guns in the category, quite the contrary. If categories were about only allowing certain designs then we would just have a few like, the Glock Division, the milspec 1911 division etc. Shoot what you like and enjoy it.

I am sure that there are no shortage of knuckleheads in both of these games, I have run into a few myself. You need to recognize though that the time, money, and effort put into these sports by mid to high level competitors is extreme, hours of practice in some cases every day, so it is reasonable to expect that they will want a clear, level playing field from a rules enforcement standpoint.

Now I come at this from the perspective of one who hates to lose, if I play I play to win, Period. There are plenty of folks at these matches that are just there to get out and pull the trigger some and maybe get some good gun handling practice (notice NOT tactical training). Just because I enjoy one aspect should not detract from their enjoyment nor vice-versa.

These matches are by and large populated by good folks who are enjoying a good day of shooting with their friends, if you ran into a few knuckleheads look around and see if maybe they are in the minority.

[mike in co]

Living in the Northwest Territories of Canada, we had a huge club membership of over 400 shooters in a small town of perhaps 13,000 people. The club was an "umbrella" organization which tried very hard to offer all the current LEGAL approaches to shooting sports, mostly because Canadian law made it extremely difficult to use handguns (in particular) for any legal purpose whatever except structured competition. Casual plinking? Forget it. Carry your handgun in the wilds? Forget it. Defensive carry? Forget it. Just taking your handgun from its LOCKED storage required a special permit, and you couldn't even use it on your own land. ONLY at a government-approved range. Clear?

So...we instituted an IPSC program, under the auspices of the Club.

As one who served in every elected position in that Club over many years, I can say that the ONLY program I ever regretted setting-up was the IPSC-type format.

Never have I seen such an arrogant, macho-posturing, foul-mouthed bunch of wanna-be bad-ass "gunslingers" such as descended upon our organization. These people not only alienated other club members, but the impression they left with the general public who had the misfortune to see some of their asininity was frankly abysmal. It is impossible to imagine a worse set of "ambassadors" for the shooting sports. Women, children, folks of somewhat gentler persuasions than these would-be terrors-of-the-tundra,were grossly offended by the actions and vocalizing of the shooters in this game.

I'm a life-long miner, and miners are not noted as shrinking violets by comparison to ANY group on the face of this old globe. I hear the filthy language an a daily (hourly) basis. Kids and ladyfolk should NOT have to hear such language, but at that time and place it was rampant on the firing line.

THere was not even ONE positive attribute in this group, to which we as a club could point with pride in our programs and our shooters They were a net, and severe, drain upon our operation.

Another reflection occurred when I met members of a Cowboy-Action group, ostensibly offering "security service: at a Big Reno Gun Show. These posturing cretins wore solid-black clothes, and black leather good suitably imbellished with pounds of silver on holsters, belts, boots (plus spurs) and HATS....one could be forgiven for thinkinh he'd blundered onto the set of a '50s horse opera, from appaearances' sake. These persons would stalk the hallways he of BTGS, stalking in their "gunfighter" crouchs and silver conchos, clinking the spurs, not knowing that most Show Attendee
regard then as decorations rather than real shooters or someone actually making a contribution to the operation.

I truly think that the generation we had to deal with in IPSC is utterly warped by watching TV Programs produced by people who know much less than the shooters themselves.

Based on this experience, I steer clear of any of these rule-bound and poseur-plagued "sports" They now have no interest whatever.

bruce sorry to hear such a negative experience in ipsc..........i have shot a bucnh....club and registered matches,never had an issue. there are some top of the heap guys that are so intense that they seem rude, but not obusive.
we have a fair amount of women and some kids shooting...language is seldom an issue.

must be that cold canadian winter
and i agree cowboy shooters are one step up from cap guns and cigar store indians.

[yarro]

Sports have rules. Live with it or don't play.

There are jerks in ever organization. Some folks always find the jerks in every organization and brand the organization a bunch of jerks. I have a college friend who has that gift. Like having a jerk magnet in your pocket.

If you stay and play, you will find there always groups within the group and you probably fit in one. If you want to win then you need to buy something within the rules that gives you an advantage in your class. If you just want to go shoot and get better then who cares what class your gun is in.

-yarro

[gunsablazin]

I have shot in competition for over 25 yrs. and have had a lot of fun doing so. I started shooting IDPA in 2005 and have enjoyed every minute of it. IDPA is a game, and it's my favorite game, but I don't care if you like IPSC, Bullseye, SASS, skeet, trap, etc. or don't shoot in competition at all. The people in our local club are great folks to spend a day at the range with, and for those of you who have had the misfortune to shoot with a bunch of "range nazis" I'm sorry. I really hate to see people knocking any of the shooting sports, no matter what your game is, we need to stick together. Remember when Jim Shockey spoke out against AR type rifles, that didn't go over to well. I like ARs and 1911s, maybe you like bolt guns and Glocks, we all love to shoot, hunt etc. lets support each other.
Oh, and for you guys who think you need a Glock to be competitive in IDPA I say not so. It's fun to beat up on plastic pistols with old school .45s. :-P (I shoot Glocks too)

Robin

[BarryinIN]

I shoot IDPA and IPSC somewhat regularly.

Any match is as good or bad as the people running it OR shooting in it. There are places I've gone to once, hated it, and will never go back. There are others I wish I could get to every month. It's the same game; just different people.

Even at the same place, the people you are squadded with can make a big difference. And yes, the SO or RO (Safety Officer/Range Officer) you get can set the tone. I usually notice people running over each other to be in one guy's squad, but another standing there with only one or two people (a clue).

If it was a classifier match, that explains some of it. They aren't the most fun match to shoot, but clubs are required to hold one each year. They are a pain to set up and run, aren't the most exciting match, and take a while to hold. People seem to be in a crabbier mood at them because of those things.
Try another match. I bet it will have a "lighter" feel.

I'm rather surprised people "looked down on" your 1911. I'd guess 1911s make up a third or more of the guns used at the IDPA matches around here. Glocks make up about another third, with the rest being a mix. There were more Glocks a couple of years ago, but the XDs and S&W M&Ps are giving them a run for it.

But shoot what you like, or rather, what you carry. I shoot a HiPower and usually have the only one. That's what it's for: to shoot what you like to use. Even if your gun isn't competitive, does it matter if you don't expect to win? At the last match, I shot a Colt New Service .38 WCF that I had owned for a matter of days and reloading from my pocket, just for the fun of it. I had fun, and a good experience, pretending it was 1920. The barrel was a half inch over the limit, but at a local match nobody cares. I've shot my Kahr backup gun before, just for the practice with it.

Yes, IDPA is heavy on the rules, but if not it would be a bunch of $3000 guns nobody carries. IPSC was like that when I started, but the influence of IDPA got the Production class started. I think that got a lot more people shooting.
The ten round magazine limit is a product of the stupid 1994 ban. At the time, I could see the point of it because anyone starting out had little choice in mags unless they wanted to invest a lot more in mags than the guns to get started. I think they could open that limit up now, but the argument there is that they are trying to keep the round counts low. This encourages revolver use, and probably is more realistic anyway.
Not that any game can be realistic. I guess it is a decent attempt, however, as games go.
And if your mags hold more than ten rounds, don't fill them up.
Now the tactical reload, that I have gripes about.
Anyway...I think most "gun guys" have at least one gun that meets the rules for at least one class.

The opposite is IPSC with fewer rules. I almost always use my carry gun and shoot from concealment even in IPSC. I'm not going to win, so why not use it for practice with my daily carry gear? You might think IPSC wouldn't be very good for this, but it actually has at least one advantage over IDPA for me. In IDPA, they tell you how you will shoot the course. I don't always agree with their way being the best. IPSC more or less lets you shoot it as you like as long as it's safe.

Either one serves as a glorified practice session for me. I carry a handgun daily for defense and while neither game is training or necessarily encourages the right methods, shooting in them has helped my shooting and general gunhandling skills.
There are several reasons to go:

-I can't begin to setup the scenarios at home myself, but thanks to a group effort I get to shoot them at a match.

-I get to practice what I learn in classes. I can do that on my own, but it seems different at a match because there is a little pressure to do things the fast way instead of the "safe" way. If I make the safe choice without being tempted to take a shortcut "just this once" to get a slightly better score, then I'm practicing the right thing.

-I get to compare myself to others. I might think I'm doing OK at something (or everything) until I see others and know I have some work to do.

-It gets me to go shoot at times when I might not otherwise. I practice regularly anyway, but having a date and time set ahead of time adds another practice time. And if the weather is not so great, or my back hurts, or if the dogs kept me up half the night barking, or whatever, I might not go shoot if it was only me...but I will go to a match.

-And finally, it is a chance to hang around people with similar interests. Of course, this holds more true at some places than others. At the better ones, I might go even if I didn't shoot in the match.

[jhrosier]

I shot in two or three IDPA matches at a local club, nearly ten years ago.
The other shooters were polite but not particulary friendly.
I felt like I was intruding on a private party.
Life intervened and I was unable to shoot regulary for several years.
Now that I have the time and money , I am not strongly inclined to try IDPA again.
It's a disappointment because it seemed like IDPA might provide some practical training for CCW.

Jack

[anachronism]

I'm shooting bowling pins instead for now. My favorite pin shooter has to be the guy at the last match shooting a 455 Webley & reloading it with S&W speedloaders. He got his butt kicked early on because he missed a lot, but I thought it was the neatest thing I've ever seen. The 3 Gun shooters have asked my to come play with them instead of IDPA. I just might take them up on it. They're not a "Kosher" group, the two handgun classes are "guns that go bang", and "guns that go boom". I guess that translates to minor & major power classes.

[shootingbuff]

Here of all places....

IDPA is a game and all games have rules. IDPA started with a great idea but did not follow through imho. I still like it though I disagree I bet with more issues than most here. My game of choice is TSA though the rules have evolved for the masses which I don't agree with, but do understand. I shoot USPSA once in a while even though my first experience was bad. I waited until I saw a change of faces and went back. Those times were all good times. The shooters make the match, not the discipline if you ask me. Having recently relocated from being able to shoot nearly any kind of a match on multiple wkends a month I chose matches to attend due to my schedule. Mostly they were IDPA, TSA and multi-gun.

People shoot the matches for their own reasons. It is not for any of us to put down those reasons or their sport/discipline of choice. Some folks as most have seen get defensive real quick. It is all trigger time. Lets support the industry and not bash others views out in public.

Back on topic :drinks:

Glad you are getting out to the matches. When it comes to malfunctions your story of never having a failure / stoppage is very common. A person can gain a lot of feedback from shooting a match from technique, to gear, ammo, etc.

sb

[archmaker]

I have shot two IDPA matches in the Houston area, and plan on shooting more.

For me it is not about winning trophies but testing myself under a set of rules in a public setting. I find that shooting in a match is different than shooting at the target range.

I have NO problem keeping them center mass regardless of distance but in a match moving and shooting and with a clock going tick tick, and trying to remember to be safe and . . . you get the point, sometimes I miss a target.

My goal is to get better, to beat myself, and to get to the point where I don't drop a point. Now that may not get me a trophy, because there is a trade off with speed vs accuracy, but that is MY goal.

I shoot a 1911, and it is pretty much stock, (new legal sights). I have a book of my shooting records, IHMSA, 3D Archery, IPSC, and IDPA starts in 1986 through today. I look at it and the notes once in while to see what I learned from each one, and to see if I improved.

With all my practice my scores were worse than the time before, made me start to figure out why, found the problem to be my contact/eye prescription. Will get it fix and see if I start improving, that is why I compete and why I keep score, to test myself.

I have found that most of the guys that i have shoot with to be good people, but that may be because I am new to the sport and no threat at getting a target from them. :)

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=BarryinIN;906125]

The ten round magazine limit is a product of the stupid 1994 ban. At the time, I could see the point of it because anyone starting out had little choice in mags unless they wanted to invest a lot more in mags than the guns to get started. QUOTE]

i take exception to that statement. that is exactly what idpa said at the time and its just plain bs.
mags were readily available thru out the ban. some prices were high most were only slightly above normal. the 10 round rule was made to sound politically correct, it was in fact to help the 1911's.
i had hi and extra hi caps for all my guns if the mag was made.....9mm 9x21, 40 s&w....
you did not start till 2005...the matches were around long before that.


mike in co

[BarryinIN]

[QUOTE=BarryinIN;906125]

The ten round magazine limit is a product of the stupid 1994 ban. At the time, I could see the point of it because anyone starting out had little choice in mags unless they wanted to invest a lot more in mags than the guns to get started. QUOTE]

i take exception to that statement. that is exactly what idpa said at the time and its just plain bs.
mags were readily available thru out the ban. some prices were high most were only slightly above normal. the 10 round rule was made to sound politically correct, it was in fact to help the 1911's.
i had hi and extra hi caps for all my guns if the mag was made.....9mm 9x21, 40 s&w....
you did not start till 2005...the matches were around long before that.


mike in co

I started in 2005? I could have sworn I joined IDPA in 1998 and shot my first match the next year, but I guess someone else would know more about that than I.

I'm not sure how the 10-rd limit helped the 1911s when they always had the CDP class, which was limited to eight rounds.
Maybe there were other reasons for the 10-rd limit besides what IDPA claimed, and I could believe some of them, including Bill Wilson didn't make any guns that used a mag larger than 10-rds or that IPSC didn't have a 10-rd limit so they wanted one for that reason. I wouldn't be surprised if PC did play a part.
But I doubt it was to help a gun that already had it's own class designed around it.

I'm glad you found hi-cap mags for sale during the ban priced "slightly above normal". I did too...once or twice a year, and for one or two types of gun, which was not always the same and seldom anything I had a use for. Some of us finding them for some guns doesn't help everyone. For example, me finding a decent deal on mags for the Beretta 92 and S&W 59 series now and then doesn't do much good for the guy with an HK USP 9mm or .40 (that had some popularity at the time) which just came out a couple of years before the ban making their hi-cap mags a bit scarce/expensive.

Whatever their reason for the 10-rd limit, I am convinced it did help even things out during that time and got quite a lot of people shooting guns they might not have used if they needed hi-caps to compete. I had plenty of hi-caps and used them, but I know plenty of guys here who didn't have them or wanted to "preserve" theirs. If they had to use hi-caps during that time, they would have used a different gun for matches or not shot at all.

Like I said earlier, I wish they would drop the limit now, or split it like IPSC does with the Limited/Limited-10 classes. With the limit in place, it goes against the "use it as you carry it" philosophy.
And don't get me started on the stupid tac reload and don't-leave-leave-a-mag-behind-unless-you-are-at-slidlock-even-if-it's-empty rule.

[knifemaker]

I can understand the rules for the tactical reload requiring you maintain possesion of the dropped magazine that still contain rounds in the mag. IDPA is somewhat setup for CCW carry by citizens.
How many citizens carry more then one extra mag when carrying their firearm concealed? Might be a good idea to hold on to those extra rounds in that mag.
As a retired LEO firearms instructor, I know that most persons will resort to their training when they get into a high stress situation such as a gunfight. Might be a good idea to teach them to keep that mag with rounds still in it.
IDPA is more geared to defensive shooting requiring the use of cover for protection while engaging targets. I am not sure what IPSC matches are geared towards as I have never completed in that shooting sport.

[BarryinIN]

Practicing what we train is the very reason why I don't like the tactical reload being a part of IDPA stages. The tac reload (and reload with retention) is a good thing to learn and practice, but part of that is practicing when to do it and when not to.

I'm not going to use time and break my concentration from a threat to be picking up a mag with a couple of rounds in it when I have someone trying to kill me. Apparantly, others feel the same way. I have not been to anywhere near all the "gunskools" out there, but have been to a few and talked to students of a lot more. None I know of currently teach doing tac reloads when you should be getting rounds on target ASAP. If you need to be shooting, you need to be shooting, and that calls for an emergency reload/speed reload to keep the continuity going. If the gun is at slide-lock, you speed load. If you are unsure how many rounds you fired or what is around the next corner, you speed load. Nobody is going to take the time to pocket a magazine when bullets are flying, and they probably shouldn't. Retaining rounds sounds good at first, but the first priority is neutralizing the threat, not using time and concentration on saving rounds you might not live to need if you don't take care of the priority.

The tactical reload is mostly taught as an administrative manipulation, like locking the slide open or replacing a mag with the gun holstered. A Gunsite instructor gave the best example I've heard: "The tactical reload is what you do for the ride home after the gunfight."
At best, it is taught by some places to be done "during a lull in the fight". IDPA's scenarios don't offer many "lulls". As far as I'm concerned, if the clock is running, there is an immediate threat and it's not the time for tactical reloads.

If this teaches shooters who usually carry a single spare mag (or none at all) the benefits of carrying another, then it has taught them something more valuable in my opinion.

IDPA's dedication to the tac reload made some sense in the early years when IDPA pushed for their matches to be ran on a "hot" range. Then, you were expected to keep your gun loaded and ready to go at all times, and performing a tactical reload after shooting each scenario was a near-necessity. But that hot range thing died off after a few years. When it existed, it was a new and unfamilar thing to many people, so stressing the tac reload helped keep them loaded.
When IDPA began, the tac reload was becoming a fad of sorts. They have stuck to it even though it's not taught by the schools as something you do in an active fight. They need to let it go.

And along with it goes the slide-lock reload rule.
As the rule stands now, the only time you can release a magazine and leave it behind is when you are at slide-lock. Otherwise, you have to retain it. Even if that magazine is empty, and the gun's slide did not lock open because there is still one round in the chamber, you cannot leave that empty mag behind. You have to do a tac reload or reload with retention.
IDPA, what does saving an empty mag teach? How does this relate to surviving a gunfight? I see people stopping or going back to pick up an empty magazine from the ground when they should/could be shooting threats. They do this because the rule says so and they will be penalized if they don't, so how is this to their benefit?
IDPA uses it to make their tac reload rule work, that's all.

But we have a choice: We don't have to do it IDPA's way. We can take the penalty. It isn't a safety issue. I do it as I've been trained which usually means I eat the penalty. Per the rule book, you can get either a 3 second penalty or a Failure To Do Right (20 sec) penalty for an improper reload, but which one you get is a judgement call and the SOs (I am one) know why I'm doing it and it's not for competitive advantage. I would much rather do what I was trained and take the penalty.

This is why it bugs me when people call an IDPA match "training". It's not training; it's practice. It's usually good practice if used well, but that's all it is. If people use it as their training, they are going to pick up some things that may not be the most beneficial to them. If people use it to practice what they've been trained, then they should be sure that's what they are doing.

[mroliver77]

Wow, and I just wanted to share a new experience.
Jay

[BarryinIN]

And I just wanted to give you encouragment to try again, because it probably won't always go the way it did the first time.
Other people posted they had had good IDPA experiences, some had bad experiences, and others went to the trouble to pick out little points of mine to say I was wrong about them instead of just letting it go to help you. All of which backs up my original point that how the experience goes depends on where it is held, who is there, and maybe even what the weather was like four days before.
Give IDPA another try sometime.

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=mike in co;906310]

I started in 2005? I could have sworn I joined IDPA in 1998 and shot my first match the next year, but I guess someone else would know more about that than I.

I'm not sure how the 10-rd limit helped the 1911s when they always had the CDP class, which was limited to eight rounds.
Maybe there were other reasons for the 10-rd limit besides what IDPA claimed, and I could believe some of them, including Bill Wilson didn't make any guns that used a mag larger than 10-rds or that IPSC didn't have a 10-rd limit so they wanted one for that reason. I wouldn't be surprised if PC did play a part.
But I doubt it was to help a gun that already had it's own class designed around it.

I'm glad you found hi-cap mags for sale during the ban priced "slightly above normal". I did too...once or twice a year, and for one or two types of gun, which was not always the same and seldom anything I had a use for. Some of us finding them for some guns doesn't help everyone. For example, me finding a decent deal on mags for the Beretta 92 and S&W 59 series now and then doesn't do much good for the guy with an HK USP 9mm or .40 (that had some popularity at the time) which just came out a couple of years before the ban making their hi-cap mags a bit scarce/expensive.

Whatever their reason for the 10-rd limit, I am convinced it did help even things out during that time and got quite a lot of people shooting guns they might not have used if they needed hi-caps to compete. I had plenty of hi-caps and used them, but I know plenty of guys here who didn't have them or wanted to "preserve" theirs. If they had to use hi-caps during that time, they would have used a different gun for matches or not shot at all.

Like I said earlier, I wish they would drop the limit now, or split it like IPSC does with the Limited/Limited-10 classes. With the limit in place, it goes against the "use it as you carry it" philosophy.
And don't get me started on the stupid tac reload and don't-leave-leave-a-mag-behind-unless-you-are-at-slidlock-even-if-it's-empty rule.

ok lets look at it this way...you can have a 10rd 9mm or a 8rd 45, which would you shoot ?
( un like the real world where you could have a 15/16/18 rd 9 vs a 8/45)
the rules was plain and simple to give an advantage to the 8/45. understand ??

sorry about the 2005, that was another shooter, my bad.

i sold mags for income during the ban. why cause they were out there if you looked, for those that did not look, they paid a couple of extra bucks .


while its all about trigger time, idpa teachs dump things for the real world.
i shoot a 22 steel match last noght

mike in co
mike in co

[Cherokee]

I am disappointed with the remarks regarding cowboy action shooters. We are playing a game just like the others - having fun busting caps and enjoying our shooting friends. Some are more serious about winning, some just have fun.

[gunsablazin]

Wow, and I just wanted to share a new experience.
Jay

Glad you had fun, that is what shooting competitively is for. Welcome to the game!

Robin (Certified IDPA safety Officer, SSP MA- CDP EX)