Anyone use aluminum?

[Ammosmith]

I was swaging with the C&H 40 caliber dies and had an idea. Is it possible to use aluminum cases from 9x19 and 9x18mm? I see a lot laying around the range. It would seem to me it would expand to fill the die without annealing.

Anyone try this yet?

[SWANEEDB]

Yes, I have made some for the black powder shooters to use in sabots, work quite nice. As for putting them down my pistol barrels, no I have not used them for that, seems to me it would leave too much residue, been told it would act like sandpaper.

[Ammosmith]

The cases are Teflon coated. I think it would be fine. Dies the case fill out the die easier than brass?

[deltaenterprizes]

Sand paper is made from aluminum oxide. A coating may rub off in the first few inches of the barrel, but copper plating may work.

[deerslayer]

OK if the coating wears off in the first few inches will the aluminum oxidize in the last few inches. I mean even at 600 FPS that is still oxidizing quick!!

[Jim_Fleming]

I've been working metal for about 38 years...

I've always been taught that when aluminum is viewed what we're viewing is not aluminum, it's aluminum oxide. The same exact abrasive material that grinding wheels are made of.

However, when aluminum is cut, stamped, pierced, (metal removed I mean) the edges of that workpiece are in fact bare raw aluminum. Those bright edges you see are already beginning to react with free Oxygen in the air and are beginning to oxidize, even as they're bright and shiny.

A non-metallic coating very possibly might work to a certain extent. However minute variations in thickness and uniformity of coating as small as 1/10,000 or more easily read: .0001 thousands of an inch are going to wreak havoc with accuracy.

For example: if your bullet velocity is 600 fps, (darned slow!) *AND* if you have a 1 in 12 twist in your barrel, your bullet is going to be rotating about 36,000 rpm's! That thicker coating on one side is going to throw the balance of your jacket/case off balance quick!

600 fps x 60 seconds = 36,000 rpm's assuming a 1/12 twist.

Now let's get up to magnum load velocities... 1500 fps or so.

1500 fps x 60 seconds = 90,000 rpm's @ 1/12 twist

At 90,000 rpm's things happen pretty darned quick! Any variations are just going to make things worse...

I'm no engineer, I'm no expert, and I'm *not* trying to pick a fight, but one thing I'm not going to do is send aluminum cases down the bores of my guns.

Good questions, however, and I invite comments, please! :killingpc

[perotter]

Years ago my cousin shoot several(25-30?) AL shafted arrows out of a very expensive 410 of my uncle's. The inside of the barrel had a coating of AL on it that my cousin couldn't remove. He had to hide gun in the attic.

I have 100% avoided shooting AL out of any gun. But if the AL alloy has a few % copper in it, an Outers Foul-Out should remove it. An Outers will remove Zamack alloys because of the copper in Zamack.

[buck1]

I asked something like this a wile back. Lots of food for thought at this likn....Buck

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=77202&highlight=aluminum

[Bwana]

That's the trouble with being old, you know stuff the young ones don't and your fellow elders have forgot.
The original Winchester SilverTips in 9mm and 45acp had aluminum jackets. They also had a little lube in their crimp groove. They worked fine though they were not very speedy. The cores were very soft.
That said, I would not use unplated cases for jackets unless that were all I could get and then I would put lube in the remaining extractor groove.

[Jim_Fleming]

LMAO!!!!! Thanks, I think, Bwana...

:bigsmyl2:




That's the trouble with being old, you know stuff the young ones don't and your fellow elders have forgot.
The original Winchester SilverTips in 9mm and 45acp had aluminum jackets. They also had a little lube in their crimp groove. They worked fine though they were not very speedy. The cores were very soft.
That said, I would not use unplated cases for jackets unless that were all I could get and then I would put lube in the remaining extractor groove.

[Ammosmith]

That's why I asked. It would also stand to reason it would wear the dies as well.

[DLCTEX]

As far as I'm concerned the issue of abrasive aluminum in a bore has been laid to rest and will happily put it through the bores of my guns without concern. If anyone ever fires them and gets aluminum fouling, please let us know. So far with all our vast membership there are no reported incidents of it happening.

[StarMetal]

There was one incident just recently, forget the posters name, but it was with a rifle that has a chromed bore. With aluminum homemade checks from Budweiser bottles (not cans) his bore fouled with what he said was aluminum.

[303Guy]

I've seen what freshly cut aluminium swarf does to an impellor and also to hardened granulator blades/hammers. Depending on the alloy and it's hardness? Aluminium makes a good bearing surface. Pistons are made from aluminium and many lawnmower enginge bores are made from aluminium, so are connecting rods and main bearings and I even made aluminium alloy piston rings! It's in the alloy and the lube. I still wouldn't put aluminium down my rifle bore! Aluminium scuffs and welds very quickly when rubbed agains itself or steel without sufficient lube. Did I mention welds? It welds!:Fire:

[buck1]

I have wanted to try .40 alum cases in my 40/44 bts set up but I cant work up the nerv to push them down the BBl.
If I can find a good used .44 mag Contender bbl at a GOOD price, I might test it out. But I cant use my revolvers for the inital tests. I am too chicken....Buck

[DukeInFlorida]

I posted some research on this some time ago.

The real issue is that aluminum creates a horrible "leading" (yeah, I know it's not lead, it's aluminum. But most people relate to what that term means) issue. Worse than any bad lead situation.

That's why I decided to skip that (tossed two five gallon buckets of aluminum 9mm Luger off to the scrap metal dealer instead of using it for swaging) metal for the jackets.

Stick with the brass situation.

[Jim_Fleming]

This is NOT scientific, but it would appear that the Cast Boolit gang is running a near toss up, about 55-45, etc...

With the 55% favoring not using Aluminum. If aluminum were feasible the Bullet Makers would be using aluminum like wildfire... Aluminum is a bit better in price, compared to copper... Considerably better. and those guys have the cost factor down to a science.

I'll stick with our Blue and Copper pills, thank you very much.

Good debate tho!

[StarMetal]

Jim,

Winchester uses a total aluminum jacket in their Silver Tip line of pistol/revolver ammo. I don't know how familiar you are with this ammo, but the aluminum jacket is very soft...very soft. I'm guessing in order to use it for a higher pressure higher velocity rifle bullet it would entail a much thicker/harder aluminum jacket. How that would perform for the type of mushrooming they want from that rifle bullet may not be ideal. Another thing some bullet manufacturers bond the current jacket alloy with the lead core such as Speer's Hot Core. That would be much harder to do with an aluminum jacket. They would find ways around aluminum jackets being abrasive to the bores, if they are that, by some means. Look how many bullets use to be nickel copper and steel. Those you would think would be hard on bores too.

[Jim_Fleming]

Ooops...! You're absolutely correct in that I'm totally unfamiliar with that specific ammo. I'm actually a bit embarrassed.

I can only plead that I've been making bullets, cast and swaged so long, and have avoided buying factory ammo for many years. For self-defense I buy Gold Dot, etc.

Thanks for correcting me, so gently, and now that I re-read the thread, earlier someone else has mentioned Winchester Silver Tip Handgun Ammo, didn't they?





Jim,

Winchester uses a total aluminum jacket in their Silver Tip line of pistol/revolver ammo. I don't know how familiar you are with this ammo, but the aluminum jacket is very soft...very soft. I'm guessing in order to use it for a higher pressure higher velocity rifle bullet it would entail a much thicker/harder aluminum jacket. How that would perform for the type of mushrooming they want from that rifle bullet may not be ideal. Another thing some bullet manufacturers bond the current jacket alloy with the lead core such as Speer's Hot Core. That would be much harder to do with an aluminum jacket. They would find ways around aluminum jackets being abrasive to the bores, if they are that, by some means. Look how many bullets use to be nickel copper and steel. Those you would think would be hard on bores too.

[sagacious]

...
Thanks for correcting me, so gently, and now that I re-read the thread, earlier someone else has mentioned Winchester Silver Tip Handgun Ammo, didn't they?
Yes, the Silvertip line uses aluminum jackets in some calibers. Some are copper that's given a thin nickel wash. I think the 9mm ST bullets are copper w/ nickel wash, for example.

Aluminum bullets will not hurt a steel barrel, and the Winchester Silvertip line probably demonstrates this adequately. An aluminum cleaning rod, though, might well hurt your barrel because grit embeds in soft aluminum. It's the grit that does the wear, not the aluminum. I suspect that's where this idea about aluminum and barrel wear started. But this debate seems to live on like a zombie lol!

There's usually a glut of 9mm brass on just about any shooting range, and for that reason alone, the question of using Al cases as jackets seems moot.

Seems as though the original poster based his question on Al cases being a possible labor-saver. As far as not requiring annealing is concerned, that's probably not correct. The Al cases are tempered so that they have similar 'spring' as brass. So you'd need to anneal Al same as brass-- no time/effort saved. During annealing, you'd be burning off the teflon coating (if that's what the coating is), and teflon reportedly produces toxic combustion products. It would seem as though Al cases might well be more hassle than brass. Not worth it with 9mm brass so plentiful.

Regards to all, and good shooting. :drinks:

[303Guy]

and teflon reportedly produces toxic combustion products.Conidering that Teflon isa florinated rubber compound!

Don't confuse a speciality aluminium bullet jacket with an aluminium case. Different alloy with different purpose in mind. Hence the teflon coating on the case.

[DukeInFlorida]

The 9mm aluminum cases are made from 7075 aluminum, while the soft jackets are probably made from 1000 series aluminum.

The 7075 is high strength, and includes metals to enhance strength. It's also relatively hard.

The 1000 series of aluminum is almost pure aluminum, dead soft, and not strong at all.

I don't like either option going down my bore.

There's a chart of the alloys here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy