How many have C&R license - worth it?

[ghh3rd]

I am getting an itch to get my first milsurp, and heard about the C&R license. It seems inexpensive and easy to get. I was wondering how many here have taken advantage of it.

I was also wondering if you lose any rights like I heard you do when you obtain a Class III (home can be searched, etc [not sure if it's true, but sounds scary]).

Thanks,

Randy

[corvette8n]

I had mine for about 10 years and the only thing you will be is broke from buying all the milsurps. Can you say Ramen noodles.

[milsurp mike]

I have had mine for 3 years and have bought aleast 100 Rifles.If you collect Rifles that are C&R you cant go wrong.Just keep your bound book in order and all will be fine.You can save alot of money not only on the Rifles and transfers but dealers like Century and Midway ect. will setup a Dealer account and save you some money also.Give It a try.I highly recommend it.You want be sorry.Your home cant be searched.Dont let the pariniod tin foil hat folks scare you.What will happen if you get your book audited is you can go to their office with your weapons and bound book or allow them to come in your home or garage and all they want to see is the rifles that are recorded in your book nothing else.I have never been audited and wouldnt be scared of one.Some guy's have had them for lots of years without an audit.The people who have fear about getting an FFL probably have something to hide or are just paranoid.Enjoy.mike

[cheese1566]

I have had mine for 3 years and have bought aleast 100 Rifles.If you collect Rifles that are C&R you cant go wrong.Just keep your bound book in order and all will be fine.You can save alot of money not only on the Rifles and transfers but dealers like Century and Midway ect. will setup a Dealer account and save you some money also.Give It a try.I highly recommend it.You want be sorry.Your home cant be searched.Dont let the pariniod tin foil hat folks scare you.What will happen if you get your book audited is you can go to their office with your weapons and bound book or allow them to come in your home or garage and all they want to see is the rifles that are recorded in your book nothing else.I have never been audited and wouldnt be scared of one.Some guy's have had them for lots of years without an audit.The people who have fear about getting an FFL probably have something to hide or are just paranoid.Enjoy.mike

Ditto...Easy enough and only $30 for three years. Pays for itself if you mail order alot. MidwayUSA had good discounts when I got mine two years ago, but they have slimmed up. Grafs does good discounts, but you pay shipping and minimum $ order amounts-whereas regular customers get free shipping.
Bad side to ordering the milsurp C&R rifles is no prior inspection and luck of the draw.
Never been checked; there is only 3 ATF agents in the closest field office. Regular work keeps them busy enough as they just don't do guns. And contrary to popular belief, they are not out to get your guns- only if they are illegal!
Just remember, it's intention is for collectors and not as a business making profit.

[mac1911]

the saveings from mid way. brownells and others have made it a bonus to have. The money I saved with C&R account discounts has afforded me a few extra toys

[Beekeeper]

I agree with Mike.
The 03 is great to have for the discounts if nothing else.
Get ready to be broke most of the time as milsurpitis will set in and pretty soon you will need a couple more safes to keep them all in.
I have never been audited and don't expect to.
BATFE has more important fish to fry than a lowly 03( watch me get audited for saying that)
If your bound book is in order you have nothing to fear and they more than likely will have you bring the book to the office rather than come to your home.
The only guns they will want to inspect if any are the milsurps in the bound book so keep them in one safe and any others in annother.

Hey Mike a question for you as you have had your 03 longer than me.
I have looked and have not found a definative answer on what if anything you have ( as far as bound book) if you sporereize a weapon.
Keep it in or remove it?


Jim

[db2]

I’ve had my 03 for about 5 years now. As others have said, I have saved more than money than the cost of the license from just buying reloading supplies with the dealer’s discount. I have learned to order guns through businesses that hand pick from the wholesalers in order to do away with the luck of the draw. It costs a little bit more however, I feel for me it is worth it. I do not know what I would do without it.

Go to http://www.surplusrifle.com/ and on the left side there is a link C&R License Information. I followed the instructions and they worked for me.

As for BATF I am not worried about them. If they want to check me that’s fine by me. I feel as long as you follow the rules and stay on top of entering your purchases into your bound book there should be no problems.

db2

[bruce drake]

I've had my C&R for about 12 years now. I'm currently waiting for my renewed license for another 3 years to come back from the Atlanta ATF office.

Keep the book updated and you'll be fine. When you decide you don't want to deal with it anymore, just mail your boundbook in to the local ATF when the license expires (new rule since 9/11) and you are fine.

Bruce

[EMC45]

I ordered one rifle with my C&R. I used it mainly for the discount. I am going to mail off my new app. I let it expire like a dummy! I want a new one.

[milsurp mike]

Beekeeper if you sporterize a weapon you still keep it in the Bound book as the receiver is what is considered the Weapon and you still have the weapon in your possesion.The only way to remove a weapon from your book is to sell or trade it off.Mike

[twotoescharlie]

had one,did not renew, spending waaay too much money. have just about everything I want or need at my age. bout time to start selling off.

TTC

[LewR]

Have my C&R even here in NJ - the other country... If you have one, don't give it up - if you don't have one - get it. Are you that cheap or hiding something????

[jim4065]

had one,did not renew, spending waaay too much money. have just about everything I want or need at my age. bout time to start selling off.

TTC

Exactly. I was always getting "Bargains" that were driving me into the poorhouse. (Not really a drive, more like a short putt.) :sad:

[Dutchman]

When you decide you don't want to deal with it anymore, just mail your boundbook in to the local ATF when the license expires (new rule since 9/11) and you are fine.


Q: Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/disposition records to ATF if their collector’s license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity?

No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearms “business” is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collectors’ licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4), 27 CFR 478.127]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html#gca-records


Dutch - former 03ffl for 25 yrs

[Dutchman]

Beekeeper if you sporterize a weapon you still keep it in the Bound book as the receiver is what is considered the Weapon and you still have the weapon in your possesion.The only way to remove a weapon from your book is to sell or trade it off.Mike


Military surplus curio-relic firearms are categorized differently per BATF Ruling 85-10.

They must be in original military configuration. Sporterizing is a no-no.


Dutch

[StarMetal]

I go along on the same lines Dutch said. Way I understand, in addition to Dutch's definition, is if you want to quit you just don't renew your license anymore.

For those worried about the government knowing stuff about you, believe me they have many other ways of knowing...including if you're a gun person.

[mooman76]

I got mine a few years ago. I couldn't believe how easy it was and hadn't done it sooner. Unfortunately I waited until I bought most of the old guns I wanted so to me it wasn't worth it, but that's on me. If I had gotten it sooner or things were different now then it would well be worth it for me. I will probably just let it expire unless I see a need to have one in the future.

[Beekeeper]

Dutch,
I understand what you said as that is what I had read.
My question ( maybe stated wrong) was .
I have 2 M98 Mausers that came either with no furniture o what there was ,was toast to the point of crumbly.
I made new stocks for them and made Manlicher style as I really like the look.
Since they are no longer in military configuration should I remove them from the book and consign them to the rest of my collection?
Never had to deal with something like this before and could not find the answer in the data book that comes with the O3 and BATFE here will not reply to phone call or e-mail, at least they haven't yet( only been a year)


Jim

[milsurp mike]

Since the Rifles are already in your bound book as a C&R it will have to stay there until you dispose of them.They can be sporterized as long as you dont ship them as C&R Rifles.The only Legal reason to have a C&R is to be able to have Rifles shipped to you.It has nothing to do with the Keeping of them in any configuration.Mike

[Dutchman]

Beekeepr - Mike is correct. Those particular rifles didn't belong in your bound book to begin with but since they are there it hurts nothing to leave them there. You'd have no real reason to "remove" a firearm from your bound book as long as you still retain ownership/possession of it. Only when you sell it that you would log it out.

Issues like this are really minor. If you mistakenly enter a firearm that's either not c-r or for some other reason is not supposed to be in your bound book it's really not a big deal. Making repetitious mistakes/entries will raise the eyebrows of a compliance inspector. But, many times (most times) the compliance inspector is not a "gun" person and/or isn't from the "firearm" side of alcohol/tobacco & firearms so they may have scant knowledge of the fine points between the 01 FFl and 03 FFL. It pays to read and re-read and re-re-read the regulations and keep up with the fliers sent out by BATF. Most of the problems that come up have been dealt with multiple times so there's really very little that's ~new~.

August 2005

Q: Is a barreled action a C&R?

A: No, see ruling 85-10 (see below)

ATF Rul. 85-10
Section 233 of the Trade and Tariff Act of 1984, 9 8 Stat 2991, amended Title 18 United States Code, section 925 to allow licensed importers to import firearms listed by the Secretary as curios or relics, excluding handguns not generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. The amendment had the effect of allowing the importation of surplus military curio or relic firearms that were previously prohibited from importation by 18 USC section 925 (d)(3).

Congressional intent was expressed by Sen. Robert Dole in 130 Cong. Rec. S2234 (daily ed., Mar. 2 1984), as follows:

First. This provision is aimed at allowing collectors to import fine works of art and other valuable weapons.

Second. This provision would allow the importation of certain military surplus firearms that are classified as curios and relics by regulations of the Secretary of the Treasury.

Third. In order for an individual or firm to import a curio or relic it must first be put on a list by petitioning the Secretary of the Treasury. The Secretary must find the firearm’s primary value is that of being a collector’s item.

Fourth. The only reason a person would purchase these firearms is because of their peculiar collector’s status. And, in fact, they must be special firearms and classified as such in order to import. This language clearly shows that Congress intended to permit the importation of surplus military firearms of special interest and value to collectors and recognized by ATF as meeting the curio or relic definition in 27 CFR 178.11. The regulation defines “curios or relics” as firearms of “special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.” The regulation further defines curios or relics to include “firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period or event.”

In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curio or relics. Moreover, ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers or curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector’s items.

Specifically, they did not meet the definition of curio or relic in section 178.11 as firearms of special interest to collectors by reasons of a quality other than is ordinarily associated with sporting firearms or offensive or defensive weapons.

Furthermore, they did not ordinarily have monetary value as novel, rare, or bizarre firearms; nor were they generally considered curio or relics because other association with some historical figure, period or event. It is clear form the legislative history that Congress did not intend for the frames or receivers alone of surplus military firearms, or any other surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration, to be importable under section 925 (e). It is also clear that only those firearms classified by ATF as curios or relics were intended to be approved by ATF for importation.

Held, to be importable under 18 USC section 925 (e), surplus military firearms must be classified as curios or relics by ATF. Applications by licensed importers to import frames or receivers alone of surplus military curio or relic firearms will not be approved under section 925 (e). Surplus military firearms will not be classified as curios or relics unless they are assembled in their original military configuration, and applications for permits to import such firearms will not be approved.
[/end of 85-10]

A lot of people argue that 85-10 has to do with importation and has nothing to do with domestic curio-relic. That is not true. Ruling 85-10 is a double whammy. BATF uses the definition for import military surplus firearms to explain why military surplus firearms have to be in military configuration to be classified as curio-relic. Ruling 85-10 does not apply to commercially manufactured firearms that are categorized as curio-relic.

Dutch

[462]

Got mine 5-years ago as a means of thumbing my nose at the state's onerous and stupid gun laws. I don't have the disposable money to use it as much as I would like, but my collection has grown in numbers. Iif you never use it to buy a gun, the "dealer" discount offered by Brownells, Midway, etc. will more than offset the $30 fee.

As Dutchman said, you need to read the regulations multiple times. Lawyers and bureaucrats do not speak English and write with vague meaning and intent.

My take is that a mil-surp rifle in other than original condition does not qualify as a C&R. A barreled action or a sporterized 1903 are not C&R items.

Regarding the bound book, I e-mailed Atlanta asking if previously purchased, C&R qualifying guns need to be entered. The answer was no, but suggested that it would be a good idea to do so. When it comes to any federal agency that has the ability to make my life more than a bit unpleasant, I err on the side of caution, thus I entered those previously purchased guns as well as another that I bought without using the license.

[smokemjoe]

If you do any traveling it will help you going between states if you had any toubles or checks at homeland secertys.

[jimb16]

Anyone who tells you the a C&R will save you money is lying! You don't save anything. You will spend just as much or more! You'll just have more to show for it.

[Beekeeper]

Thanks for the answers guys.
When I bought the guns in question I bought them from CIA using my C&R so that is the reason I put them in the bound book.
Have been reading the regs again and as they are some what ambiguous I thought I would ask the question.
Didn't figure it was important enough to ask BATFE and will just leave them in the book and if I am ever audited will show them the rifles and purchase receipt and let them make a determination.

To those who do not have a C&R I strongly suggest you get one but sew your bilfolds closed as with it you can get some good deals on guns and reloading gear.


Jim

[georgewxxx]

"My take is that a mil-surp rifle in other than original condition does not qualify as a C&R. A barreled action or a sporterized 1903 are not C&R items."


Better recheck the regs again. most any gun made 50 years ago is considered a C&R including some full auto. So as of 2010, any gun made before 1960. This is directly from their web-site.

Q: Does my weapon qualify as a curio or relic (C&R)?

For your information, a regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR Section 478.11, defines C&R firearms as those"which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons."

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for a formal classification.

If you desire an evaluation, ship the firearm to FTB via FedEx, UPS, or other common carrier. You must also include your carrier’s account information or a return postage label for the return of the item. Please submit any supplemental documentation such as value appraisals or curator letters that may denote the firearm as a collector’s item. The weapon would be returned with a letter detailing our examination and stating FTB’s findings concerning the weapon’s classification as a C&R firearm.

Address the parcel to:
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 USA

Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA. If your C&R item is an NFA firearm and you desire removal from the NFA status (e.g., Winchester Trappers), you must submit it to FTB for evaluation and a formal classification.

[462]

Georgewxxx,
"...and in its original configuration..."

A sporterized 1903-A3 or a military rifle's barreled action are not in original condition.

From the ATF's "Firearms Curios or Relics List": All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.

Of course, any military 50-years or older qualifies.

The qualifying word is "original".