Seeking Load Data for 200 Grn RNL .38 Special

[Oyeboten]

Woo Hoo! Finally did some simple Smelting, and, some first tries at Casting Boolits.

Range Lead from the Pistol area of the Club...so mostly .45 Hardball, and some non-jacketes 45 or smaller Calibers.

Long story short, all went well Smelting into fluxed, skimmed and clean Pours for simple Ingots, with all the usualy flubs and mistakes of Mold use having gone well also...missing none of the usual mistakes in my compressed learning curve foray how the Mold wishes to be treated.


I decided to Cast up some 200 Grain RNL Bullets, appearing to be of a BN of around 12-ish ( finger nail pressed in and moved across the Ingot, will leave a slight textural dent anyway, but you gotta press 'hard' to get a dent ).

These for .38 Special Cartridges.

I should size these I suppose, and of course Lube their Grooves well, and I will.

Old 'Lyman' Iron Mold says 358 430, but, for me, so far, they have been a fairly uniform .360 ( which I now realize probably comes from my having got a very thin smear of Lead adhered to the inside Mold Faces, from when I got the Mold too hot at one point...Ooops...so, I will warm it up and use a little hand Wire Brush and clean that out 'hot', and see if that does not bring things back to more like .358) .

Weighing some of them, they seem to be around 205 Grains ( I guess for being a tad chubbier than they should be...)


Anyway, hoping some of you may have some Load Data to share, since I would like to try these out...and none of my Books cover it.


http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/45615/2755642160067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2755642160067835264gXYAJO)


Oh, I was Casting a few Balls for the Dragoon, also...

[StrawHat]

...These for .38 Special Cartridges.

I should size these I suppose, and of course Lube their Grooves well, and I will.

Old 'Lyman' Iron Mold says 358 430, but, for me, so far, they have been a fairly uniform .360 ( which I now realize probably comes from my having got a very thin smear of Lead adhered to the inside Mold Faces, from when I got the Mold too hot at one point...Ooops...so, I will warm it up and use a little hand Wire Brush and clean that out 'hot', and see if that does not bring things back to more like .358) .

Weighing some of them, they seem to be around 205 Grains ( I guess for being a tad chubbier than they should be...)...

Depending on how old the mold is, it may have been cut to cast a .360 boolit. The 358, (429, 454, first numbers anyway) portion of the Lyman code is merely a way of giving you an idea what cartridge they should fit, not a guarantee of a diameter. (If it was the lead smear, you should have bullets from before the smear that are smaller.) What size is the chamber mouth on your revolver? The 360s may be a good fit for you.



...Oh, I was Casting a few Balls for the Dragoon, also...

Dragoons are a lot of fun to shoot.

[Oyeboten]

Thanks StrawHat,


Initial Boolits were coming out not having filled the Mold well...then, coming out wrinkley...so heating Mold more, I got it too hot, and, after a count of ten, seeing the Sprue go matte, I opened it, and Molten Lead spilled out, which I think is when I got the thin smear adhering to the inside faces.

Remelted all the poor-result Boolits without measuring any of their Diameters.

So all the 'keepers' were done with the thin smear in place.

I could remelt them, no big deal...Live and Learn.


Once clean again, Mold should do them a mite smaller I think.

Revolver who these would be for ( well, I have several, but, the prime Candidate ) has kind of snug Cylinder Bores, appearing to measure out to like .355 of all things...b-a-r-e-l-y onto thinking about being .356 anyway...and shy of it.

I tried one of these .360 Boolits, from the front, and it would not go.

I had some .358s, Semi-Wads, Store Bought, and those, I had held out a little longer on the OAL ( using BP and wanting a tad more of it in the Case), and by golly if I did not have to push HARD, real Hard, for chambering them in the Cylinder, with my Thumb.

I have a Lubrisizer, and a few Dies, and maybe now I will get it going and try it out also.

Yes...the Dragoons are fun indeed!

[LowPE]

Lee's reloading book has plenty of loads in both 38 and 357 for this wonderful boolit.

I use Green Dot in 38 special. My experience in 357 mag is that it likes a full load of 2400.

[Oyeboten]

Thank you LowPE,


You know, I actually sent off for that Book months ago, in anticipation of one day getting onto the 200 Grain .38 Special Loadings, and the Book arrived, got set aside, and forgotten about.

I found it here, right out in the open, but had somehow thought it was an 8-1/2 x11 size Book, so I kept overlooking it's actuall smaller size self. while looking for it.


Yeahhh...the Powders which would be best for this, are ( of course! ) not the ones I have on hand...

[part_timer]

I've been shooting a 220 SWC in 38 special for the last week or so. My book shows 2.5-3.5 gr of Unique with a small pistol primer. I'm shooting them out of an 1894 but ran a few through the 38 snub nose with OK results so far.

[Oyeboten]

Hi Part-Timer,


Good to hear...

What is the Make and Model of the Snub Nose, if you don't mind me asking?

My primary Test Revolver, is an S&W Model 10, 3 inch Havy-Barrel...so, not a Snub Nose, but, fairly short anyway.


My primary interest for these is for short Barrel Revolvers of the two three and four inch size...and, secondarily, for longer Barreled Models.

I hope to do some tests in which I may compare the striking force of the 200 Grain Boolits, in or against various materials, and against heavy-ish objects, to some various lighter Bullet "+P" Cartridges, commercially available.


I'd like to maybe even send off for some Ballistic Gellatin Powder, and make some 'blocks' to do tests on...

[part_timer]

My revolver is an EAA with a 2"bbl.

I've just mixed a batch of 50/50 WW and soft to give a try. The straight WW just seem to hard for as SLOW as these are traveling. Today I made a dish hollow point pin for my 180gr NOE mold to try in this also. It should be interesting to see if the do any mushrooming at these speeds.

[Oyeboten]

Do you have a Chronograph, to find the speeds?

[part_timer]

Nope not yet. it's on my Christmas list.

[9.3X62AL]

LOTS of "time in grade" with the #358430, both in 38 Special and 357 Magnum.

Tell ya what--that casting design is ACCURATE in about any powder weight that provides 700 FPS or better. At 700 to 800 FPS from S&W and Ruger revolvers, these tend to tumble on impact with jackrabbits and coyotes. Warm them up to 357 velocities (1200 FPS), and they tend to stay point-first a little better. I think this would be a GREAT candidate-boolit for soft-point casting per the BruceB Method for use on deer in 357 Magnum.

[part_timer]

The one thing I noticed is that I can't use +P brass with the 220's. The boolit sets far enough down to leave a slight buldge that won't chamber in the lever gun. It will chamber in the EAA but they are TIGHT!!! I went to regular 38 brass and things went fine. IT rained buckets here today so I will try some tomorrow and see what happens.

[part_timer]

Oyboten I had a chance to shoot those 180's this week and they shoot pretty darn good. At 10 steps I was able to put 6 shots in a group about 3/4" x 1/2". Mushroom wasn't to bad, they opened all the way to the first lube groove going through some scrap oak.

[Oyeboten]

Hi part_timer,


Nice to hear!


My days are so full and multi-faceted and chock full of obliges to others, something as simple as getting on to some Loading/Re-Loading, is not so simple afterall... a few stolen minutes here or there on the internet, is easy. The mood and presence of mind and wishing for no distractions while re-loading, not-so-easy.

I did get some experimental .45 Colt loaded up and tried out the other day...that was sure nice. Very satisfying. This mostly for a Snubby I would like to Carry now and then, so, these loads were 'SD' oriented in nature.

Maybe I can get some of my .38 special "200"s loaded up too...and try them out.

[part_timer]

Well yesterday was a good day to shoot. Here is what we tried.
3.5gr of Unique, 358627 sized to .358, winchester sp primers with gas checks.

In both the EAA 2" and the Dan wesson 6" both my son and I were able to keep around a 2-2 1/2" group off hand at 10 yards. Not to bad for just trying something. I know the EAA likes .360's but I didn't have any ready to go at that size.

When shooting them out of the Marlin lever you would have thought I was shooting a shot gun. The (pattern) was somewhere around 12-14" for 20 rounds off a rest at 50 yards....

For fun we tried them out of the 357Max encore. It was better at 6-7" at 50 yards but nothing to write home about.

I'm not done experimenting yet but it will have to wait until there is some time to cast a few and size them a bit larger for the Marlin. We'll see. I know the max will shoot better than that but I'll have to look through my notes to see what was working and what wasn't

[GabbyM]

Lyman 45th. An old one indeed.
2400 8.0 grains = 734 fps 9.5gr = 893 fps. From 6" barrel.
Factory duplication load is Unique 3.8 gr = 703 fps

none of my newer Lyman books list this bullet for revolvers.
That top load of 2400 looks like a stout one.

[Oyeboten]

Lyman 45th. An old one indeed.
2400 8.0 grains = 734 fps 9.5gr = 893 fps. From 6" barrel.
Factory duplication load is Unique 3.8 gr = 703 fps

none of my newer Lyman books list this bullet for revolvers.
That top load of 2400 looks like a stout one.


Thanks GabbyM,

I have 'Unique'...

[GabbyM]

Thanks GabbyM,

I have 'Unique'...

start load on unique is 3.0 gr = 572 fps max is 4.1 = 772 fps.
book list it's accuracy load as 3.6 grains of unique for 671 fps.
That may be accuracy at a fifty foot indoor ange though. seams pretty slow.
Perahps with any luck the new Lyman cast Bullet Handbood 4th edition will have laods for the #358430. There new 49th edition Reloading Handbook doesn't even list the big bullet under 357 mag rifle laods which is a real mystery to me. Only thing I see it listed in is 35 Rem.

In Wiljens excellent free download Reloaders Reference this bullet is listed under 195 grain. This 45th book dates back copyright 1970.
I like Wiljens software. Can enter my own loads tagged with my initials under load source then comments.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/

[Oyeboten]

LOTS of "time in grade" with the #358430, both in 38 Special and 357 Magnum.

Tell ya what--that casting design is ACCURATE in about any powder weight that provides 700 FPS or better. At 700 to 800 FPS from S&W and Ruger revolvers, these tend to tumble on impact with jackrabbits and coyotes. Warm them up to 357 velocities (1200 FPS), and they tend to stay point-first a little better. I think this would be a GREAT candidate-boolit for soft-point casting per the BruceB Method for use on deer in 357 Magnum.


Thanks for that info 9.3X62AL..!


I have been thinking also on these for .357 Magnum.


I have an older SAA style .357 7-1/2 inch Barrel I have done a little experimenting with, using .38 Special Loadings, to see how the longer Barrel would effect FPS in Cartridges otherwise intended for shorter Barrels.

[Oyeboten]

Hi GabbyM,



Lo and Behold, I actually have the 'Lyman 45th' Handbook, but it had been misplaced along with three other ones.

Turns out that my old 'Speer' Handbook also has Loadings for 195 or 100 grain in .38 Special...as does my ( found along with it, ) 'Lyman Cat Bullet Handbook'.


.357 Magnum Loadings seem pretty appealing also for the 195 or 200 Grain ( for .357 Magnum Revolvers I mean ).


This Mold, depending on Alloy, I guess will do 193ish to 203ish Grain Bullets, roughly.

My Lead is a light Alloy and around 12 for BRN, so, on the heavy side.

Same Mold, harder Alloy, might be 195 on the nose even.

[9.3X62AL]

My #358430s fall out at .359" in 92/6/2, and weigh 196 grains.

Seated to conventional length (crimped over forward drive band) and prompted by a book max loading of WW-296 (12.4 grains), My 4" Model 686 gives it 1125 FPS. In the 7.5" Ruger BisHawk, it runs just short of the load data's promised velocity of 1200 FPS, about 1190 average. That Ruger tempts me to tip a bit more powder into the case and run the overall length out a bit, but as yet I haven't performed that stunt. As is, the load shoots accurately and leaves little doubt that the primers functioned, even in those fairly heavy platforms. These loads run about 35K PSI, so should be safe in all 357s--even the J and K frames. I said SAFE, not "pleasant".

[MT Gianni]

start load on unique is 3.0 gr = 572 fps max is 4.1 = 772 fps.
book list it's accuracy load as 3.6 grains of unique for 671 fps.
That may be accuracy at a fifty foot indoor range though. seams pretty slow.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/

AIRC Lyman marks their accuracy load not by a paper target but by the smallest standard deviation from a Chronograph. I don't think they are alone other than Ken Waters.

[GabbyM]

AIRC Lyman marks their accuracy load not by a paper target but by the smallest standard deviation from a Chronograph. I don't think they are alone other than Ken Waters.

That makes sense now. 671 fps seamed pretty slow for bullet stability.

[Oyeboten]

My #358430s fall out at .359" in 92/6/2, and weigh 196 grains.

Seated to conventional length (crimped over forward drive band) and prompted by a book max loading of WW-296 (12.4 grains), My 4" Model 686 gives it 1125 FPS. In the 7.5" Ruger BisHawk, it runs just short of the load data's promised velocity of 1200 FPS, about 1190 average. That Ruger tempts me to tip a bit more powder into the case and run the overall length out a bit, but as yet I haven't performed that stunt. As is, the load shoots accurately and leaves little doubt that the primers functioned, even in those fairly heavy platforms. These loads run about 35K PSI, so should be safe in all 357s--even the J and K frames. I said SAFE, not "pleasant".


Thanks 9.3X62AL,


Funny, I always thought I would hate strong recoils...and it turns out I am entirely comfortable with them.

Partly this is from having changed a little how I hold the Revolver.

I used to hold it too low somehow.

Then, reading some old Book or other, I realized the Author was holding his Revolver higher...and in the Text he even elaborated on this.

I tried it, and it made a nice difference, especially if more powerful Ammunition is being used.

I always shot one Handed...still do.

Now I am comfortable and easy with hefty Recoil, and my recovery is also good.

This led me to decide to experiment a little for carrying my .45 Colt Snubby, and for it to have Healthy Cartridges...it's recoil used to seem "not pleasant".

Now, with some fairly stout Loadings, far beyond what I used to shoot in it, it seems very satisfying and secure...and even pleasant in fact for being a mite stout.


But, this Thread of course was begun to respect the 200 Grain .38 Special Cartridge, or it's close relations...and not the .45...

And in the .357 Magnum Loadings you describe...it is sounding very appealing indeed.


I will try it.


Looking forward to it!


I will eventually report back of course on whatever things I do end up trying for the 200 Grain 357-ish Boolit.

Just that Work and other obliges have kept my plate brimming over lately.

[9.3X62AL]

Over the years I've run a couple thousand of those #358430/12.4 x 296 loads out of a number of 357 revolvers. The load shoots at least decently, and often quite well. Soft-pointed with a 70 grain lead donor slug, I think it would do very well on deer. The boolit is LIGHTS OUT ACCURATE in the Ruger 7.5".

[Oyeboten]

AIRC Lyman marks their accuracy load not by a paper target but by the smallest standard deviation from a Chronograph. I don't think they are alone other than Ken Waters.


Interesting to know!


Of course, Accuracy in that sense, or of being able to anticipate a close consistency in FPS for one's Rounds, and hence, an identical parabola section for the distance...is very important in Target disciplines over distance.


Where, for possible Self Defence conditions, 'accurate enough' and all the whallop one and one's Revolver can manage well and with fast recovery, are possibly more the rumination.

[cajun shooter]

When I first started to really get into guns was around 1964 or so. After coming home from the service in 1969 I got a job in a gun store. Winchester still loaded a 38 spl load with a 200 gr. bullet to sell to the public. I have my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook from that era. It list the Lyman 195 gr.358430 #2 alloy in the reloading section. I remember that this is about the same time that Lee Juras was fooling around with high speed jacket bullets instead of the old lead bullet. If you went into a store at that time and ask for a box of bullets for your 38 spl you were handed a box of 158 gr round nose lead that shot at about 800 FPS. I can't remember who did the test that was in one of the magazine's at the time but it had the factory 38 spl 200 gr included in the test. Automobiles at that time had what we called vent or butterfly windows in front of the regular side roll up one. The 38 spl failed to penetrate that vent window at any angle it was fired at. Up until this time it was believed that the 200 gr was a man stopper and was carried by many cops in the Baton Rouge area. These test which myself and a few others went out and duplicated were found to be true. We had some that failed to break 700 fps on the chronograph which was a Ohler and owned by the store owner who was present. My book shows 8 different loads of which 2.2 grs of bullseye at 580 is the slowest starting load and 4.5 grs of Unique at 830 is the fastest. The medium fast load is 780 and the average low is 598. The bullets were stopped being offered for sale not long after these test became revealed to the public. What else I found is that Lyman gave the same number to the bullet under two different weights. THe bullets looked the same but one was a 150 gr and the other a 195 gr. Talk about confusion.

[Landric]

I've done some toying around with the Lyman 358430 195 grain (with my alloy it tends to run 200-202 grains) in the .38 Special. I use it for IDPA because it makes power factor at such a low velocity (625 fps for SSR). My usual IDPA load is 4.3 grains of Trail Boss. That particular load averages between 664 fps (Wolf SP primer) and 700 fps (CCI SPM primer) depending on the primer out of my 4" S&W 681. It has mild recoil and is nicely accurate (though it shoots really high at longer ranges in my fixed sight gun, I'm going to have to change to an adjustable sight gun).

On the other end of the spectrum, 9.5 grains of 2400 with the same boolit gave me an average of 875 fps out of the same 681 using Federal SP primers. It was consistently 875 fps over multiple testing sessions. That is the max load from older Lyman manuals, though I find it quite mild to shoot in my L-frame. That is an average of about 340 ft-lbs of energy, no slouch for the .38 Special. I have little doubt that the 9.5 grains of 2400 load would beat the pants off any of the previous factory 200 grain offerings in both penetration and stopping power.

However, I don't think the RNL profile (despite the excellent bullet shape for fast reloading in IDPA) is the ideal shape for that weight bullet at that velocity. We have a GB going here (shameless plug) for a 200 grain SWC that I can't wait to try out in .38 Special:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61896

[revolvergeek]

I had some very good accuracy results recently shooting some 358430's over 3.6 grains of 231 in a Winchester .38 spl case with Win SP primers. No idea of the velocity. This load actually shot far better in both revolvers than the 150 DEWC load that I had also loaded for that trip.

[Oyeboten]

Thanks for the mention revolvergeek!


Ohhhhhhhhh, looks like I might be moving soon, loosing the lease on this old place.

This will cramp my reloading experiments for a while.

But, perfect time to find some old Building in a small Town somewhere, buy it cheap, fix it up if need be, and, have room for my interests finally!!

It's been hell trying to make do in these cramped quarters here, but, I was entrenched and stayed with it...now, time for Greener Pastures.

Woo hoo!!

[smkummer]

I have shot that 2400 load out of my vintage Colt officers model match 38. Accurate and hard hitting on the steel. 855 was my chonograph speed.

[Oyeboten]

That is very respectable there smkummer.

Sounds nice indeed..!

I might be able to fit in a little more re-Loading before having to clear out...hope so.

Sure looking forward to trying out this Boolit.

[9.3X62AL]

Some valid points were made above concerning the terminal performances of the 200 grain 38 Special ammunition. No doubt about it, that dome-like round nose profile on #358430 lacks the cutting edges and meplats of my beloved SWCs. That was the point of my text concerning the soft-pointing of the boolit for deer hunting.

If felon repellin' is on the menu, soft-points might be a better option than homogenous WW or 92/6/2. The beauty of the Bruce B Softpointing Method is that you only need to make relatively few of the hunting or service boolits in this admittedly time-consuming method. Practice can be had with the far more quickly-produced homogenous boolits, and I have seen ZERO effect on downrange points of impact at 100 yards with rifles (9.3 x 62 and 45-70) between the two boolit types. I suspect handgun POIs would be similarly unaffected.

[Oyeboten]

Hi Landric,


I missed your Post earlier...glad I caught it this round, thank you..! Yes, I remember the GB going on, but, for having stubbed-a-Toe on the old Lyman Mold I got, I felt satisfied.

Plus, dough is a little thin for me, so any of this really is quite a Luxury.

In fact, I gave up a great many things I never liked or cared about in the first place, or never had in the first place, to be able to have and afford these modest if fun involvements with old Guns, and, re-Loading.

So, a second 200 Grain Mold is not likely for me any time soon anyway.