9MM Probs, Why?

[mdi]

I'vee been hanging around here for a while now and notice a lot of threads about problems with shooting cast in 9MMs. I have only 1 9MM and I don't cast for it, but I do cast for 45 ACP, 38/357, 44 Spec/Mag. Why does thwere seem to be a bit more probs with the 9? Is it a high pressure round? Velocities that are being tried? General bbl differences? just wonderin'...

[docone31]

Heck, I use the Lee 124TC mold for the 9mm.
I have less issues with that than jacketeds.

[MtGun44]

9mm often has oversized barrels, shallow rifling, fairly high pressures and velocities with
boolits with short bearing section. Every single variable tends to cause problems with
boolits. Add in the marginal lube capacity of the Lee TL designs and you are very
likely to have problems. It can be dealt with, typically you need at least moderately hard,
oversized boolits with good lube capacity and a decent bearing section length.

Myself and others that I know of have had instant success in multiple brands of 9mm
pistols with the Lee 356-124TC sized to .357 or .358 using a good lube like LBT blue or
NRA 50-50. Avoid the TL version of the same boolit.

I strongly recommend a newbie to the 9mm start right there and save a lot of grief and
money. Cake cut and shoot as cast will probably work unless your chamber is tight if you
do not have a lubrisizer. Pan lube/cake cut and use the inexpensive Lee push thru dies
if you need to size. Don't even both starting with .355 or .356 diameters, not that it may
not work ever, but it is rare enough to not be worth even trying as a starting point and
a .357 boolit will have absolutely no problems if the bore winds up being .355.

Bill

[44man]

I'vee been hanging around here for a while now and notice a lot of threads about problems with shooting cast in 9MMs. I have only 1 9MM and I don't cast for it, but I do cast for 45 ACP, 38/357, 44 Spec/Mag. Why does thwere seem to be a bit more probs with the 9? Is it a high pressure round? Velocities that are being tried? General bbl differences? just wonderin'...
It does have pretty high pressure and the shallow rifling might cause a boolit to skid too much. In the future I will be working with my daughters gun. I have to make a mold first. I don't know yet but feel the boolit must be the right size and very hard.

[MtGun44]

AC WWts is plenty hard enough with the Lee 356-124TC @.357 in many 9mms. Not saying some
may not require harder, but it is not common.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

Many people think of pressure as a one dimensional, stand alone factor.

It's not only the peak pressure, but the rate that pressure accelerates and the duration of that pressure that stresses metal and lube.

Think of it as the old bicycle tire and tractor tire comparison. You can pump a bike tire up in 5 minutes with a hand pump to 40 psi, but it will take you all day to pump a tractor tire up to 12# of pressure.

Then picture two cars rear ended by another car at 10 miles per hour. One is sitting still at the impact and the other is moving at 5 miles per hour when it gets hit. Which one will receive the most deformation?

Under those scenarios, one bullet maxes out before it really get moving and the other has some velocity up before the peek hits it. And the larger the bore, the faster it drops as the bullet moves down the bore.

Answer your question?

[sagacious]

Why does thwere seem to be a bit more probs with the 9? just wonderin'...

Very good question, because there is nothing diabolical about the 9mm that makes it resistant to shooting cast lead. There is no tiny devil lurking in every 9mm case.

Most of the "my 9mm won't shoot lead, and I've tried EVERYTHING!" posts run on for several pages. The poster usually insists that nothing in the known universe will make lead work in his gun. When you finally get to the last page the actual solution is almost always one or more of the following:
Increase or decrease powder charge or type.
Change to a different bullet design.
Change to a different lube type or system.
Size to a larger diameter.
Use a harder or softer alloy.
Use mose care in loading/seating/crimping.

Simple, basic stuff-- and most 9mm problems are cured using these simple, basic remedies. When someone insists that their 9mm problem is insoluable, it's almost invariably because they are either generally confused about the ammo problem-solving process, or have become resistant to common sense and basic ammo problem-solving processes.

There's a good reason why the old hands here recommend the same tried-and-true remedies to cure basic ammo/functionality problems..... because the same ol' cures work in virtually every case.

The simple fact of the matter is that when someone says they're tried EVERYTHING and their 9mm won't shoot cast lead, they ain't telling the whole story, and you can bet credits to navy beans that the fix will be rock-solid simple. Don't buy into the hype and let the 9mm scare you. Good luck.

[armoredman]

Oddly enough, my CZ P01 loves a lightly loaded Lee 356 124 TL boolit. No issues at all, works in all my CZs.

[jbremount]

Many posters have discovered the common 9mm cast bullets problems (1) chamber size all over the place, (lead bullet fit is #1) (2) the 9mm has a small case with high working pressures somewhere around 35,000 psi, and (3) the high velocities up to 1200-1300 fps with 115-124gr bullets. You don't get these high velocities and high pressures with the .45acp and .38 special. If one uses heavy 147 gr 9mm bullets, you can get lower velocities under 1000fps/etc and that seems to solve a lot of problems, but I don't think the gun will shoot to the same point of aim.

That said, This is my current chew on the subject. I think the twist rate of the European 9mm pistol's barrels are 1/9xx. This may be ok for jacketed bullets, but the shallow and fast twist rifling does not grip soft lead as well at the higher 9mm velocities . I have found that a larger .358 bullet (.357 will probably work) and harder 15-18 BHN lead bullet may be needed. If you get a KKM or Barstol 9mm aftermarket barrel, you will get a much slower twist rate of 1/16 or even 1/20, and I have never seen one of their barrels that would not shoot well. KKM and Barstol make only barrels and they do their homework. The .38/357 will have a slower twist rate also.


There are others with much more experience with the 9mm and cast bullets than I, but this is what I am thinking at the moment.

[Bret4207]

Read post 3, 6 and 7 and you'll have the answer to 90% of pistol issues no matter the caliber, and a good deal of revolver and rifle loads too.

[runfiverun]

i've also noticed that 90% of those problems have come from the lee t/l boolit mold.
the 45 don't seem to have that problem, and the only t/l mold iv'e ever shot is in 44 and it does fine.
i have often wondered if the ridges are too shallow/deep on the 9mm design.
i shoot the magma boolit at .358 and don't try to hotrod the 9 and haven't worried about it.