Incipent case head seperation?

[cheese1566]

I just took out my Ishapore 2A for the first time. I shot 3 rounds away from the gun and went OK. I then readied it to sight in at 25yds with a chronograph.

The gun went off OK and I did not feel anything unusual. When I opened the bolt, the lower half of the case ejected and the rest remained in the chamber. Bolt didn't feel hard to open and didn't detect any blow back or residue upon firing. The stuck shell came out OK using a 223 chamber brush.

I cut open one of the three fired cases to look for a gap in the web area to suggest stretching. Found nothing. The cases were prepped using a primer pocket uniformer. The primers seated nice into the case with no protrusion and a little recessed as normal. The fired primers show a little flattening but not much_ but they are pushed out somewhat- this leads to me believe excess headspace. The primers are protruding about 0.005" from the case head.

I tried to headspace the gun, but the gunsmith had only 308 WIN that maxed out (the No-Go gauge went right in) and no 7.62 military gauges to try. I know it had some headspace.

My load:
-Hornady 150 gr FMJBT
-IMR 4064 @ 40.0 grains weighed-(starting load in my Hornady book)
-Win large rifle primer
-No crimp
-LC74 once fired brass that was Lee collet sized only. This was never full length sized. I got them once fired with military crimped in primers. They fit the chamber of the Ishy, so I only Lee collet sized to leave them big.

The fired bases before the extraction groove measure: .472"; a once fired is: .470".

No measureable difference in case legth.

The chronograph registered 2373fps.

22327 22328

[HeavyMetal]

Here's what I'd do if I was you.

I'd beg borrow or steal 3 or 4 factory loaded 308 rounds and pull one of them down and get a case measurement then put it back together and fire it and then remeasure.

If you have excess headspace it will show right then and there! I'd also fire the other case's and check inside with a dental probe see if you can feel a "stretch" mark on the inside case wall.

Now having an ocassional case come apart is not unheard of, having 4 or 5 in a row is reason for concern! Because your 308 brass is of military origin I think the odds of it having gone through a M-60 are pretty good! These guns are noted for headspace issues and a couple cases per hundred doing what yours has done would not surprise me if the came from an M-60 or some other type SAW.

Another thought is if you still have access to the no go gauge you might buy some 002 and 005 shim stock and shim the no go guage until the bolt won't close.

Adding up the additional shims will tell you how far "out" you really are headspace wise.

[Eagles6]

You're right, looks like headspace. Could be brass but I'd look at your first idea.

[wistlepig1]

Headspace gauge might tell you what the problem is.
Another thought, did you "bump the shoulders on the brass hard" That might shorten the brass causing a headspace type problem? I reread post you neck sized--my baad, sorry

[ETG]

Try to get a field guage. If that chambers the headspace is way too much. You will find that it is not uncommon for cases that have been through a machinegun (M-60, Ma Duce, etc) to be worthless. Sometimes you can see a ring of slightly different colored brass right about where your case seperated. If you use a feeler (I use a coathanger ground to a point and bent at 90 degrees) to run down the inside wall you will feel the indentation. Very common on 50 BMG cases.

[44man]

Try this---take a factory round, unfired of course and put a layer of masking tape on the head. The gun should close. It should close with two layers but start to be tight and show resistance with three.
If it closes easy with three to four, you have too much head space and the only solution is to never size to set back the shoulder. Or neck size only if fired cases still chamber.
Other then that, the barrel needs set back.
When I changed the barrel on my Swede I had no tools but home made barrel vise and action wrench. I used tape and stoned the front of the receiver to allow the barrel to go in farther. Slowly working I got it perfect. The barrel is a take off, is pitted but will shoot 1/2" groups at 100. I don't know if it will take cast with the pits.
I would fire form brass with light loads so they don't grip the chamber too tight but will stretch to fit. Then back off the size die.
Head space can be overcome with brass that fits. You might want to use newer, softer brass too.

[cheese1566]

I may cut open the other two to see if there is some seperation starting to show.
The well known friend here I bought the brass from had ran them through his M14 rifle.
Cabelas always has some Winchester 7.62 on sale for $12 a box. Maybe I'll try some of those and measure.
Bad thing is it isn't like a regular LE #1 Mk3 that I can swap out the bolt face. Ishy's bolt faces are hard to find.

What load do I need to fire form the brass?

I was originally planning on using this gun for light cast loads and paper patching. I do have some Lee 309-150's that need to be sized and gas checked. Maybe reduced loads will be the way to go.

I guess if I had too, I could form some 30-06 cases down to the proper fit. What a chore!

[MtGun44]

No real problem if you are willing to 'work with it' and not shoot factory ammo. You fire
form some brass, never set the shoulder back, basically use the full length die to mostly
neck size (often will get a bit of body sizing, too, if necessary) and go on. Brass will be
somewhat damaged on first firing, but not after that, should get reasonable case life.

Bill

[44man]

You can ask on the rifle site, many use a lot of stuff to form cases to the chamber. Cream of wheat, etc, instead of a boolit.

[scrapcan]

Another way to make brass if you have too long headspace on the firearm is to make your brass fit this headspace.

To do so you can use the false shoulder method.
you neck up the brass and then you start neck sizing until the brass fits so the bolt closes with just a bit of feel ( crush fit) on the bolt. You then fire with a fireforming load. You will not full length size these cases and they will be guns pecific.

There is good information on fire forming in Dennely's manual of cartridge conversion or PO Ackley's handbooks. Also some good info from Fred Zeglin at Z-hat customs.

http://www.z-hat.com/

Other sources are also available.

With any method used to make brass fit your firearm you should first make sure there are no fatal flaws in the condition of the firearm. That is a given. If you have considerable setback of the bolt lugs or swelled chamber or bulges, you may want to look at other options.

[303Guy]

Other then that, the barrel needs set back. It's an Ishy - a Lee Enfield. Change the bolt head to adjust headspace. Since they'd be hard to find one might be able to plate the bolt face. I'd do the false shoulder trick or I'd lube the loaded cases with starting loads and shoot 'em. Many folks would say that's a no-no. Too high a chamber pressure would cause the case to grip the chamber even with lube and defeat the exersise. Milder loads allow the case head to settle back against the bolt face before peak pressure occurs and pushes the shoulder forward. Too high a friction as in dry cases causes the case to grip the chamber walls while the case is still forward. Just saying what I would do.

[Multigunner]

Contact Brian Dick LTD. He might have a few new unissued 2A boltheads. I think he used to have a few, but he may have used them up by now.


I tried to headspace the gun, but the gunsmith had only 308 WIN that maxed out (the No-Go gauge went right in) and no 7.62 military gauges to try. I know it had some headspace.



Thats the problem with the blanket statements some like to make on interchangeability of the 7.62 and .308 cartridges, at least in milsurp rifles. A mil spec case and relatively light loaded 7.62 Ball cartridge may be within safe specs for the often loose and worn milspec chambers, but the commercial sporting and target cases may not hold up to the extra stress of too generous headspace.

Also mil spec brss while often good for reloading if only fired in a commercial .308 or .30-06 chamber may not be good for reloading if previously fired in a loose milspec chamber. It may have already used up its elastic limitations on first firing.


I've seen a few owners of 2A rifles that apparently made it through with little abuse, or more likely were repaired shortly before being sold off, and have decent headspace, assuming that this is the norm for the 2A rifle. While at least two importers have posted that every 2A rifle they brought in either had excessive headspace on arrival or developed excessive headspace after firing a few rounds of .308.
The majority of those rifles were produced under pressure to put as many rifles as possible in the field, and I find it more likely that corners were cut at times than to assume that each rifle received the attention it should have during production. Especially after the downgrading of proof testing requirements of the .303 rifles made immediately before the changeover to 7.62.

[cheese1566]

Contact Brian Dick LTD. He might have a few new unissued 2A boltheads. I think he used to have a few, but he may have used them up by now.

Also mil spec brss while often good for reloading if only fired in a commercial .308 or .30-06 chamber may not be good for reloading if previously fired in a loose milspec chamber. It may have already used up its elastic limitations on first firing.




You have contact info for Brian Dick? Google did nothing for me...

Should I be using commercial brass instead?

[docone31]

With mine, I got bulk milsurp ammo and fired it in the rifle.
This was before the big scare, and I got a bunch of reloads from it.
I got a bunch of brass from Jeff Bartlett. So far, so good.
If you cannot find a bolt face, you could weld it out, and machine it back in.
Are you sure the #1MKIIIs will not fit?

[Multigunner]

You have contact info for Brian Dick? Google did nothing for me...

Should I be using commercial brass instead?

Heres Brian Dick's website, his Email addy can be found there.
http://www.bdlltd.com/

IIRC Mr Dick had once mentioned restoring a number of 2A rifles using new unissued 2A boltheads.

I don't know if SMLE boltheads would fit a 2A bolt, but I would not expect them to be of the same metalurgy, so its probably not a good idea to use them.

As for the military brass, I think it would work okay if originally fired in your rifle, probably better than commercial brass. Its once fired military brass which may have been fired in who knows what sort of weapon under unknown circumstances that I'd be leery of.
MG loads in 7.62 NATO can greatly exceed the chamber pressure of the standardized Infantry Ball cartridge. A hot load fired in a loose chamber, with possible increased pressure due to an already hot chamber, might have stressed the case to its limits before you used it in loads for your rifle.

A importer once sent an email (which I found posted on the net) describing the headspace problems he had encountered with 2A rifles, and recounting an incident where a .308 cartridge fired in a 2A rifle (luckily not one the importer had sold) had blown out sending the magazine box at high velocity into the shooters crotch. The victim required surgery to preserve the family jewels.

SAAMI puts limits on headspace for good reasons, they don't expect commercial sporting ammunition to be manufactured for use in military spec chambers.

I use military cases in my .303 rifles when possible, but have found that these while they in some cases have thicker rims aren't noticably stronger than commercial .303 cases. My Enfields do have much tighter chambers than most, and I reduced head gap of each by fitting new bolt bodies and boltheads.
Before fitting the new bolts my No.4 had case separations on the second or third reloading, even if neck sized only. Now both give very long case life.

Its always better in the long run to find the source of excessive headspace and cure it, than to go through a lot of fire forming and other temporary fixes. Once the problem is rectified by fitting a new bolt or bolt head, or both if need be, you will have a much better rifle than you started with.

PS
Fitting a new bolthead is fairly easy, but properly fitting a bolt body takes some skill, and should be done by a gunsmith familar with the Enfields.

[jsizemore]

Lake City brass has been known to have a smaller internal volume then commercial brass. When I've loaded LC, I've had to reduce my starting load even farther then what was published in the load manuals. That and the excess headspace can be your problem. I use the neck up and then back down to have a secondary shoulder to fireform. Works better then seating the boolits out to engage the lands. Good Luck

[cheese1566]

OK, help a brother out. May seem a silly question, but how do you "neck up" the brass. I have been loading for years but haven't heard this.

Plus, I have a Lee collet die. How do then size the secondary shoulder? I can see how it would be done with a typical neck sizer. Seems like I am visioning having to use a small shim washer between the shellholder and Lee collet die to get the job done?

[Rockydog]

Cheese, Just neck the brass up with an 8mm or .35 cal die with the sizing button set low enough so that none of the case is sized. Then back your .308 die out about 4 full turns and resize the neck to 30. This will only resize the end of the neck. If the case chambers try another case backing the die out until cases won't chamber and then turn in a 16th turn at a time until it chambers with a crush fit. Size all of your cases to this setting and reload them. When you fire them the case shoulder will move forward and you'll have gun specific cases. This is why we handload. Custom fit for individual guns. Some are just a bit more individual than others. I dedicate a shellholder to this die and measure and record the space between the shellholder and die mouth with feeler guages. Whenever I set it up for case forming on my once fired cases I'm good to go. RD

BTW, I have no experience with lee collet dies. This may not work for them????

[cheese1566]

OK, what about the idea of a chamber adapter to 7.62x39mm?

http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

How about using the 7.62x39 in the 308 or 30-06?
Or the 308 in the 30-06?

As gun writer Roy Huntington said: "Duh...this was so obvious and simple."

Now you can turn your 308 or 30-06 into a 7.62x39 and take advantage of inexpensive ammo!

Simply coat the the outside of the adapter with non permanent Locktite™, place a fired 7.62x39 case inside the chamber and close the bolt. After 10-12 hours, eject the 7.62x39 case and you are ready to start shooting. Inexpensive Russian ammo costs 25-50% less than any regular 308 or 30-06. A broken shell extractor will remove the adapter and return the gun to it's original caliber. If you are careful, the adapter is reusable!

Also available in 308/30-06. Each kit includes one tube of Locktite™.

Complete kit: only $25.00. Broken shell extractors: $10.00

[Multigunner]

That type of chamber adapter won't cure excessive headspace. You'd just end up with a 7.62X39 caliber rifle that has the same headspace problem as it did in 7.62X51.

Even if the chamber adapter were only pushed in as far as normal fired case would allow it to go this would result in the chamber adapter not filling out the original chamber completely. The amount of locktite between chamber wall and adapter would be greater than in a rifle that had good headspace, and more prone to loosing its grip.
On the upside 7.62X39 milspec cartridges seem to hold up well in rifles with generous headspace, and pressures are a good deal lower than those of the NATO round or .308 Winchester.

The SMLE and No.4 rifles are routinelt rebarreled or the barrel set back and rechambered for the 7.62X39, and fitted with various magazines or adapters to feed that round properly.

[wistlepig1]

As I was reading this thread, I got to thinking that to increase the face of the bolt, would having it FLAME SPRAYERed then remachined wor?. Some of the experts here may be able to answer that question, I don't know and just thinking outloud.

[docone31]

That is a possibility.
The Bolt Face on the Enfields are removeable. That keeps the heat from the bolt itself.
That is why I would stitch weld it, then turn it to size.
It is a small piece.

[cheese1566]

Gonna try some different avenues first. I know setting the barrel back would be best.

I started looking into the interior of some of my once fired LC brass using a simple LED penlight. On a few, I can easily see a shadow in the area of where the case head split on the other. Others are nice and shiny with nothing apparent inside. After I found one with a "shadow ring" I dissected it and found the start of case head seperation. I then practiced with a makeshift dental pick to learn the feel. I think the LED light works pretty good. I started sorting out my bag of LC92 brass to try over.

I also started experimenting with resizing 3006 cases. I got a spec sheet from RCBS faxed to me. This way I could downsize the 30-06 brass just over to fit the legth of my chamber. Seems simple as long as I don't have to trim the case neck thickness- more tools and labor. I experimented with my Lee FL sizer without the decapper on. I found the air vent hole is gouging the heck out of the case neck and shoulder. I am sure a whole lot easier if I had a 308 trim and form die.

Oh well, if I wanted easy, I go out and buy a new rifle...

:veryconfu

[303Guy]

cheese1566, how much thread clearance is there between the bolt body and the bolt head? If you're lucky you may be able to fit a shim washer. I'd still load up moderate loads and lube the loaded cases and shoot 'em! Remember that normal 303 Brit loads are moderate 308 Win loads and 308 Win brass is stronger than 303 Brit brass. (The same rule applies to lubing loaded cases as applies to lubing for resizing - not too much but enough to keep the case from sticking). You know, we hear that lubing loaded cartridges increase bolt face thrust beyound the strength limits of the bolt but if that were correct then how does excess headspace develope with dry cartridges fired in clean chambers? After all, the case is supposed to carry nearly 50% of the thrust for a bolt that is designed to carry the full thrust all by itself. Just a thought.

[bigdog454]

You could fireform some new cases,check them for cracks (inner and outer) then only neck size and reload. A wildcat of sorts.