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JohnH
05-07-2005, 07:24 PM
In my 357 Max, whenever I use WSP primers, the first shot is low by 1.5" on average. It will always land in the same place. The following 9 shots (I shoot groups of 10) make a nice group, usually 1.5" or less. Whats the deal???? I bought these primers at a gunshow, was tickled to get 'em for 15.99 per/k. Most times I have to travel 40-50 miles and am stuck with whatever the small shops have, at an exta $6.00-$7.00 per/k. CCI's may throw out, but I can't prove it, the Winchesters on the other hand throw the first out obviously and unmistakeably. Other than change primers, anything to resolve this??? I thought it may have been powder related, but using AA#2 this PM revealed the same pattern.

Bass Ackward
05-07-2005, 08:54 PM
Other than change primers, anything to resolve this???

John,

This is a trick question right? Aim high with the first shot.

Willbird
05-07-2005, 08:56 PM
I assume this is all from a fouled bore ??

First shot for the day ?? or just the first from a gun that has cooled for awile ??

I have never seen a pistol primer brand choice have any impact on groups. They all seemed to work the same for me.

Bill

JohnH
05-07-2005, 09:02 PM
Well, you got me again :) I had considered that solution, but it would be nice to not need to do that, but since I use these loads for play and practice, that may be the best solution. After I first posted this thread, I loaded up 10 with CCI Small Rifle primers. Same 'ol song and dance again my firend, so even changing primers may not resolve this. I'm gonna try it again without the filler tomorrow and see what happens.

JohnH
05-07-2005, 09:08 PM
I assume this is all from a fouled bore ??

First shot for the day ?? or just the first from a gun that has cooled for awile ??

I have never seen a pistol primer brand choice have any impact on groups. They all seemed to work the same for me.

Bill

My shooting pattern is to load up ten, walk out to my shooting bench, plop my butt down and fire away. Go back to house and reload the cases, go to the bench plop my butt down and fire away, repeat untill trigger finger is numb or the sun sets. The barrel is for practical purposes cold for each group.

This is a problem I have had with this rifle since I first got it 2 1/2 years ago. Now it gets really puzzling....don't happen when I'm using full case/full velocity loads. May just be a quirk of the rifle I have to live with.

Bass Ackward
05-07-2005, 10:00 PM
Now it gets really puzzling....don't happen when I'm using full case/full velocity loads.

John,

If you raise your arm and it hurts, don't raise your arm. Did I lose ya?

If it shoots the way you want it with full power loads, shoot full power loads.

If full power loads get to be too much for ya, get a smaller caliber gun.

Simple huh?

StarMetal
05-07-2005, 10:02 PM
I know what it is.. You need Bubblegum bullet lube. Ask Bass all about it.

Joe

Bass Ackward
05-07-2005, 10:17 PM
I know what it is.. You need Bubblegum bullet lube.
Joe

John,

Actually, in Joe's moment of jest, he hit on what I think is your problem. With you first shot in a cold barrel, you are overlubed. The lower friction results in less velocity, and the round prints low. With the next shot balance is restored because of the temperature rise and the gun prints in a steady position.

This is why it doesn't happen with full power loads because the higher pressure and resulting velocity uses up the excess lube. Your options are to ignore the problem. Shoot high with the first shot. Use less lube. Patch before the first shot. (I hate this choice because my luck is that it will go 1.5" high and you will come back busting my %#&!) Or change to another, less slipery lube to eliminate the problem.

There is my guess anyway.

Ooops! Senility! Forgot that softening your bullets will also use up more lube too. But you are probably shooting pure lead already at these low velocities to avoid costs.

StarMetal
05-07-2005, 10:21 PM
Bass

That is amazing, just amazing. I guess that bubblegum lube made you think sticky, tacky, etc, thus hold the bullet back some. Good work old boy, well done.

Joe

Bass Ackward
05-07-2005, 10:29 PM
Bass

That is amazing, just amazing. I guess that bubblegum lube made you think sticky, tacky, etc, thus hold the bullet back some. Good work old boy, well done.

Joe

Joe, After you chew that stuff for awhile it loses what little flavor it has. I assume the flavoring WAS the lubricant. But it does throw higher pressure than other lubes.

That's why I believe that NRA formula is the best lube for either the beginner or the cast bullet shooter that shoots cast bullets like cast bullets. It works at lower pressure / velocity levels without producing over lubrication in a large percentage of applications. (because it isn't too slipery)

It is an excellent lube for that reason.

David R
05-07-2005, 11:28 PM
Hmm I am having the same problem with my cast bullet loads in my 22-250. First shot doesn't even go in the bull. Sometimes its not even on the paper. This is with cast gas check bullets (oops boolits) loaded at recomended velocity by the Lyman handbook. The other 4 produce some kind of group, sometimes a good one. I am trying a bigger sizing die tomorrow to see if that helps. I can shoot jacketed like crazy, but much prefer to shoot lead. It also seems that my rifle shoots much better when the barrel is hot. I mean like able to hold my hand on it for 5 seconds.

Right now, my cast boolets shoot so bad, I have to test for groups at 50 yards instead of 100.

Could this be bedding? The barrel is NOT free floated and it has to be almost an inch around, 24 long. Should I free float it? Just a bump built into the stock above the sling swivel.

waksupi
05-07-2005, 11:44 PM
Dave, if it shoots jacketed ok, don't fiddle with the bedding and such. It sounds likeyou have a sizing and hardness problem to overcome. Try the larger sizes, and report back. We'll get it shooting for you.

44man
05-08-2005, 12:09 AM
I have to ask! Do you guys get bubbles at the muzzle with the bubble gum lube? Or does it slip out of the cylinder gap? Do ya chew it before lubing or after?
One thing I didn't read was if the first shot is from a clean bore. I learned from years of silhouette shooting to never start the shoot with a clean bore or I would miss the first chicken. It didn't matter what gun or bullet I used either. I also NEVER go hunting with a clean bore, you can actually miss a deer that way. I never start to work loads with a clean bore, I always fire one or two at something else first.
It is not your primers!
It could be something about your gun and barrel heat but you never said what gun you are shooting.

felix
05-08-2005, 12:14 AM
DavidR, free float the sucker! You can always re-install the bump with devcon or some other epoxy. Even swimming pool putty should work fine as an elevator, and you could borrow the amount needed from the nearest in ground swimming pool dealer. ... felix

StarMetal
05-08-2005, 12:18 AM
44man

That's an awful lot of questions about a secret formula lube. I"ll give you one free, you have to chew it first. Warms it up, makes it more pliable, and you don't need a heater on your lubersizer then.

Joe

JohnH
05-08-2005, 12:36 AM
Nope, barrels not clean. In fact I do everything I can to keep from running a patch down the bore. this one hasn't been cleaned in at least 200 rounds. Last time I cleaned it I was running that silly Lyman Super Moly straight. I have found it to be a good lube, but it will, without reason, suddenly begin shooting patterns, not groups. Don't get me wrong, it is decent lube, just weird like that. I've shot it at 2000 fps with no leading. I use it in a modified home recipe, I do believe the moly does give a benefit. 'Tis powder residue that usually causes me to break down and swab the bore.

I would like to have a smaller caliber, in a perfect world I wuod absolutely love to have a 32 H&R Magnum, smaller would be even better so far as I am concerned, how about a 32 S&W Long? that to me would be nearly perfect, 'bot 3-4 grains of powder and a 100 grian bullet.....just enough to make a steel plate ring nad punch holes in paper. Alas,I am stuck with a 357 Maximum, a 44 Magnum and a 38-55. so I have to make the 357 think it is something smaller. Shoots great when it is run flat out, just needs some more breaking when it comes to this plinker stuff. It'll get there.

Twonsend Whelen said that olnly accurate rifles were interesting. Why is it then that I spend most of my shooting time with a not quite accurate rifle???

JohnH
05-08-2005, 12:39 AM
Ooops forgot....Bubblegum lube? I'm stuck on this rifle as it is.

Bass Ackward
05-08-2005, 07:17 AM
I would like to have a smaller caliber, in a perfect world I wuod absolutely love to have a 32 H&R Magnum, smaller would be even better so far as I am concerned, how about a 32 S&W Long? that to me would be nearly perfect, 'bot 3-4 grains of powder and a 100 grian bullet.....just enough to make a steel plate ring nad punch holes in paper. Alas,I am stuck with a 357 Maximum, a 44 Magnum and a 38-55. so I have to make the 357 think it is something smaller. Shoots great when it is run flat out, just needs some more breaking when it comes to this plinker stuff. It'll get there.



John,

Ask and you shall recieve.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/1894_centerfireRifles/1894CL.htm

Actually, I prefer the 32 Magnum because it has conventional rifling.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/leverActionCB_rifles/1894Cowboy-32.htm

David R
05-08-2005, 08:29 AM
Thanks for the advice, I am right now trying the 225 sizing die. I was shocked the Linotype bullets shot so bad, but If they are being sized too much, then it could be distorting the bullet. We will know the results in a few days, I sneak out to the range at lunch sometimes.

I still have 150 of the softer (like #2) sized @ .224.

JohnH
05-08-2005, 08:47 AM
David, I'm gonna ask a silly question, Have you slugged your bore yet? If not, do so immediately. What bullet are you using, and what load? Sluging your bore is pretty simple and painless. First get one of thsoe round with a hole in it sinkers that is about 1/4" diameter. Smear it up real good with Slick 50, STP oil Treatment or some other sticky gooie slick'em. Take a short aluminum, brass of hardwood dowel and drive that sucker into the rifling at the chamber end, then tap it back out (of course you'll need a longer rod for that) Now do the same at the muzzle end. Driving the ball in 1 - 1 1/2 " is plenty Now measure 'em. Your bullets need to be at least this size, over by .001 or.002 ain't a bad thing. You may find that you don't need to size your bullets at all, just get a larger diameter sizing die, or lap the one you got out a little. (you don't say what kind of equipment you are using for sizing) If you're just stating off doing this, aiming for 1200-1400 fps till you get a full grasp of the idiosyncracies of cast then work up. Tell us your load data.

David R
05-08-2005, 09:14 AM
John,

No I have not slugged the bore. I ASSUME :) that its pretty close to what it should be, its a brand new Remington 700 Varmint model with a laminated wood stock. I wanted a 308, but the model with a bull barrel had a twist rate more suited for lighter boolits.

I have tried red dot and anything up to 2000 fps makes thos oblong (keyhole) marks in the paper. I used 16.5 to 18.6 of SR4759. This worked OK. 18.5 to 20 of 4198 seemed to work better, then I went to pure linotype and everything went south in a hurry.

I have the "bore riding nose" design by Lyman, 55 grain 2 cavity mold. I use a Lyman 450 with Hornady gas checks. I think right now I am using RCBS lube.

I also would like to use 2400, but can find no data for it. I aquired 8 lbs and thats a LOT of 44 magnums!

I will slug the bore. Today.

Thanks for the help so far.

swheeler
05-08-2005, 12:14 PM
David R ; take the barrelled action out of the stock, cut a piece of business card to fit under the reciever, reassemble. This will float your barrel to try some groups, if it helps you can float it in the traditional way(stock alt.) if it doesn't remove the card and you haven't altered anything. I have found many light weight sporter barrels(especially buggy whip weight) shot better either full-lenght bedded or with a pressure point. Remember using the shim under the reciever can change the point of impact a bunch, maybe off the paper.
Scooter

44man
05-08-2005, 12:26 PM
Now I don't know what to say! Seems we have something strange going on. Shoots OK with full loads but only throws the first shot with light loads. Your bore is fouled and not clean and oily. Does the same with other primers and powder. The only thing I don't know yet is what rifle you are shooting. Is it a lever gun or something else? I might have missed that question in your posts, too old to remember !

StarMetal
05-08-2005, 12:56 PM
I go along with Bass in it's a lube related problem. I can't see bedding an issue in that the first shot goes bad and the rest fall in line, especially when it doesn't have this problem with full loads or jacketed loads. Try this, clean your barrel pristine clean. Then see where the first shot goes and the following shots and report back. Don't mess with bedding until we've exhausted everything else.

Joe

swheeler
05-08-2005, 01:48 PM
I was just showing a way to free-float the barrel quickly, to give it a try, without permanently altering the stock,not making any diagnosis pertaining to this problem. Barrel harmonics can be very different shooting boolits @ 2000 and FLGC @ 3700 fps. I saw something just like this last winter at the range with a new 30/06 REM 700 shooting FLGC, first shot 1.5 low 1.5 left, next 4 in a nice little group, group after group. A couple weeks later the same guy was there, shooting nice tight groups, he told me the only thing he found was the action screws were not tight, tough fix huh! Whenever I buy a new rifle, first I take it out of the stock, rub down all the blued metal with WD40, adjust the trigger , reassemble it, drop in a head space gauge, clean the bore spotless. I have found many-many rifles with one action screw, or both loose, after the recoil from the first shot sets the recoil lug back tight in it's mortice-good grouping. Just trying to help (cover all the bases) I have never seen a heavy barrelled rifle shoot as small groups(consistantly) bedded with a pressure point as I have free floated. But I'm sure there is someone out there that has one!

StarMetal
05-08-2005, 02:04 PM
swheeler

Yes you way was very good. I wasn't including your way, was only referring to not doing any permanently. I've used that method you described recently on a rifle that I built.

Joe

swheeler
05-08-2005, 03:31 PM
Joe; had a couple days of rain so casting a few bullets and reloading. Got the Lee 452-228-rn 6 holer, good looking bullet, hope it shoots good! Yep, that old card trick is a quick way to find out if it needs floated, never hurts to try.
Scooter

StarMetal
05-08-2005, 04:09 PM
swheeler

Nothing like a rainy day for some good casting. I do that myself when it rains here. That six holer sure piles up the bullets fast too. Gotta love those 45's. Have fun shooting them.

Joe

David R
05-09-2005, 05:48 PM
I used the .225 sizing die and now I have things that resemble groups. I even shot a .46" one at 50 yards. I don't know if I can do that again or not. I moved the taget back to 100 yds and they opened up to 1.25" give or take.

The first shot is still a flier. Usually low, off to the left or right, but out of the other 4 that make a decent group.

I shoot 5. I use a K15 scope so I can see my holes in the target pretty good, but I still walk down to the target and look it over. I walk back, shoot another group and the first shot is off compared to the rest.

Tonight my rifle will be free floated.

The bullets I shot today were cast of pure linotype, dropped at 57 grains +or- .5 grs. 225" to 226". I am going to try a few from my softer alloy sized to .225 and see how they shoot.

BLTsandwedge1
05-09-2005, 05:59 PM
....... It sounds likeyou have a sizing and hardness problem to overcome.........

My wife told me the same thing.......

Regards.......

carpetman
05-10-2005, 02:31 AM
BLTSandwedge--Waksupi is very familar with size and hardness problems---something or the other about that HUGE pickup he drives. For sure we got expert input from him on this one.

JohnH
05-10-2005, 10:04 PM
Now I don't know what to say! Seems we have something strange going on. Shoots OK with full loads but only throws the first shot with light loads. Your bore is fouled and not clean and oily. Does the same with other primers and powder. The only thing I don't know yet is what rifle you are shooting. Is it a lever gun or something else? I might have missed that question in your posts, too old to remember !

More is revealed......

It is an NEF, I rechambered form 357 Magnum to 357 Maximum, I also am shooting a 44 Magnum and 38-55 of the same brand. I wouldn't call them great rifles nor tack drivers, but they do shoot and are very consistant. In that I have no complaints. I'd much rather have a rifle that shoots 2" with anything you put in it than one that gives 1/2" groups one day and won't hit a paper plate the next. The 357 is by far the most troublesome, but perhaps this lube change will make a difference over time. We'll see.