The real stuff

[Fly]

Real black powder
Till I can get me some REAL black powder, what do you guy's recommend.Back
in the ole days when I shot bp alot I never did like Pyradex if that's how it's spelled.

But what is a good substitute till I can get the real stuff.Things have really
changed from the good ole days.

Thanks Fly

"PS" If there is anyone here that knows a dealer in OKC or Tulsa that sells
real bp please reply. :holysheep

[docone31]

I like Pyrodex. I just open up the nipples a tad.
Goes off ok.

[felix]

The best place around these parts is in Clarksville or Ozone AR, retailer and wholesaler respectively. If you can wait, I can help. I can deliver to Tulsa area any amount of whatever you want. All brands, all granulation if not sold out. PM me if interested. ... felix

[waksupi]

I like Pyrodex. I just open up the nipples a tad.
Goes off ok.

Opening up nipples is a dangerous practice. Don't do it!

[roverboy]

I opened up the nipple on my TC New Englander years ago and never had a problem.

[RugerFan]

I've had good luck with 777.

[roverboy]

Like RugerFan said 777 or tripple 7 works great. I used to use Goex black but where I get my muzzleloader stuff they quit getting it. I went in there one time and asked for black powder and they looked at me like I wanted to buy Crack Cocaine.

[1874Sharps]

When you get ready to buy the real stuff there is a place in AR that has great prices and service -- Powder Inc. In the mean time, I suppose any of the subs will work. I have found that 777 is a bit more powerful than black powder and Pyrodex (volume to volume). If you are shooting 777 in an older gun or one of weaker design you may consider dropping the load some.

[mooman76]

I've never had a problem with Pyrodex. It is all I have used except BP with the exception of American Pioneer in my 45-70.

[stubshaft]

I never had a problem with Pyrodex other than that I never got real good accuracy from it. I use T7 nowadays and like it ALOT. The only caveat with T7 thaat I have found is that it doesn't like alot of compression. I even use it sometimes in my rocklocks (after priming with real 3F) just to save my dwindling supplies of holy black.

[Swampman]

Pyrodex fff works just as well as blackpowder in eveything but a flintlock. 777 works fine too.

[DIRT Farmer]

As for opening up nipples, it happens when you shoot enough, then you replace them. It dosen't take to much to set the hammer on half cock, then you are looking at lock repairs. One season of M/L shotgun compition is enough to burn out good stainless steel nipples. As they burn out ignition becomes less consistant and cap splatter and blow buy becomes more noticable on your arm. If you shoot much, carry spare nipples in your shooting box. I had to learn the hard way, nipples are cheap compared to locks.

As for powder, there are dealers who will ship to you. I am lucky enough to be at Friendship two or more times a year and can keep a stock on hand.

[cajun shooter]

There are several ways to buy and shoot the real thing. Several companies will ship you as small a order as 5 lbs but that makes it very expensive because of the shipping and Haz-Mat fees. Grafs will ship smaller orders of 5,10,15 and so on.

[405]

I don't think that real BP is very hard to find.... fairly easy sources have already been posted. But buying it down at the local market for $2/lb is a thing of the long ago past. For metro Okrahoma areas I'd think most any gun/sporting goods store even Walmart should have at least some Pyrodex. Even tho I dislike and abandoned Pyrodex shortly after its introduction in the 70s it is one of the most common of the BP subs and will work in a pinch.

Curious the talk about opening the flash hole in nipples... I'm constantly trying to find nipples with the smallest flash holes.... including #11 Musket nipples. I have no interest or need in trying to ignite powder thru battlefield sludge or because of questionable loading or cleaning habits, let alone "auto" cocking of percussion hammers :(

[northmn]

Pyrodex has been found to be more corrosive than the real black. Had chemists explain why. I have tried 777 and found it to be more desirable. BP is better.

Northmn

[Mk42gunner]

Pyrodex fff works just as well as blackpowder in eveything but a flintlock. 777 works fine too.

I had trouble getting it to ignite in an 1861 Navy[smilie=b:. I had screwd up and left my just filled powder flask at home, so we tried the pyrodex that my cousin had. It didn't work very well.

Robert

[Swampman]

Pyrodex has been found to be more corrosive than the real black.

An old wives tale with no factual basis.

[northmn]

An old wives tale with no factual basis.

There is a great deal of factual basis to the statement. A gnetleman who goes by the handle of Mad Monk on the ALR site also works as a chemist and has explained why these powders are very corrosive. According to him Pyrodex contains Potassium percholate which turns into a salt, potassium chloride on combustion. It can damage a bore within a few hours in a humid climate if not cleaned thorughly and very soon. His claim is that Pyrodex can be more corrosive than BP and will start micro pitting very soon. If cleaned right after shooting or used in a dryer climate it is not so bad.

Northmn

[fishhawk]

my own experiments with pyrodex and BP show me that pyrodex is indeed more corrosive and it must be cleaned rather quick after firing i wouldn't wait more than a couple hours. steve k

[DIRT Farmer]

+1 on pyrodrex being more corrosive, if you break for lunch the barrel must be cleaned if you like the gun. It may be the humidity here also when a can is opened it needs to be shot up in a few days or it will shoot several inches low at 50 yds. Before I was properly schooled I have shot over the weekend and not cleanedthe shotgun till after the shoot with B/P. I would not consider it with the subs.

[mooman76]

I clean right away with any powder I use so more or less corrrosive is not really a factor.

[Swampman]

And that is what you should do but Pyrodex is no more corrosive than black powder. This myth has been debunked many times.

[waksupi]

And that is what you should do but Pyrodex is no more corrosive than black powder. This myth has been debunked many times.

Wrong. I don't know where you are getting you information, but they are full of beans. Probably from marketers of Pyrodex.
I am a ML shooter, and gun builder for over thirty years. I have seen first hand ruined firearms from the fake powders.
I live in a dry climate, and you can get away with not cleaning a black powder rifle for several days. I have seen people at shoots use Pyrodex, and very visible corrosion is apparent over night if the rifle is not cleaned. They always have the same response, "I was shooting Pyrodex, you don't need to clean it!"
A rifle came into the shop that had had Pyrodex used, and not cleaned. Breech was nearly impossible to remove, and bore was frosted and pitted from end to end.
We have done experiments with flashing Pyrodex and BP on bare metal, and the Pyrodex was definitely more corrosive.
Feel free to ruin the barrel of your gun if you wish.

[Swampman]

I've heard these tales for years and know that Pyrodex is no more corrosive than black powder. A muzzleloader must be cleaned the same day unless you use Blackhorn 209. I've been at this for 35 years. I'll keep shooting Pyrodex for $5.00 a can. I get it from Walmart at the end of hunting season.

[waksupi]

I've heard these tales for years and know that Pyrodex is no more corrosive than black powder. A muzzleloader must be cleaned the same day unless you use Blackhorn 209. I've been at this for 35 years. I'll keep shooting Pyrodex for $5.00 a can. I get it from Walmart at the end of hunting season.

Well, I'm glad people won't be believing what you are saying here. You have misinformation you insist on clinging to. This board is known for putting out the correct information on various shooting aspects, and that statement is wrong on several levels.
Potassium percholate, and potassium chloride will do a number on your barrel. I do hope you are the only one who will be ruining firearms, and others are sensible enough to pay attention to chemical reaction.

[Southron Sanders]

With the exception of Pyrodex, has anyone ever noticed how fast these "subsititute" black powders come and go? AS for BP, keep the old Coke slogan in mind: "There is Nothing Like the REAL THING!"

[DIRT Farmer]

I think the thing with the subs is the next big thing. Next season some one will be putting out an ad for shoot futher and faster, and their brand will last the deer season. It amazed me when I walked into a big box store a couple of yesrs back and saw the deer hunters special, 5 sabots, 5 bullets tiny jar with 15 pellets 5 209 primers a small bottle of cleaner small pack of cleaning patches and all in a bubble pack. I guess the sights are good for ever.

[Flinchrock]

An old wives tale with no factual basis.

Trust me,,,Swampman knows everything there is to know, or ever was to know, about black or fake powder shooting, and will tell you in short sentences EXACTLY how to do everything! But,,,pyrodex IS a lot more corrosive than real black. Unless you clean the holy behoochie out of your bore with every modern solvent known to mankind after every shot!!! plain ol' black just needs water! As has been said, drilling nipples is not a great idea, no matter what you pour down the barrel, if ya gotta do that, something else is wrong!! Real Black is not that hard to come by, and has been working fine for a long time. When you see people asking if this or that works as good as real black, well, what else do you really need to know?

[george1980]

plus 1 on everyone but swampman , ive been shooting muzzle loaders since i was 8 years old, and agree that not a single one of the subs will shoot as well as good ole black , and flinchrock put it best by saying " Unless you clean the holy behoochie out of your bore with every modern solvent known to mankind after every shot!!! , now for some of the newer subs such as the buckhorn 209 and shockys gold they are good things to stay away from in my opinion . they are designed for inline muzzleloaders, are hard to ignite ( the 209 is in the name for a reason ) and give fairly high pressures that might not be safe in some rifles and are expensive , the hazmat and price of 5 lbs of black is less than you will spend on 5 lbs of the subs , if prices in your area compare with here

[Swampman]

You sucumbed to the stuff you hear at blackpowder shoots by the graybeards. Your right I do know everything about black powder and the subs. Pyrodex cleans up and shoots exactly like Goex 3F in a caplock. You can't tell the difference. No mods are needed to the nipple.

[northmn]

The source I quoted is a chemist that is pretty knowledgeable, I would believe him. If you want to deny that go ahead but I would suggest others new to the game do not. When I tried Pyrodex in my traditional BP percussion it not would hangfire but it would not stay on the paper at 100 yards. 3f GOEX was very accurate and would fire reliably. As the real stuff is less expensive even at mail order prices as George said. No reason to use the stuff anyway.

Northmn

[Swampman]

A good read

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4020904/Re_Pyrodex_Corrosion

[waksupi]

A good read

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4020904/Re_Pyrodex_Corrosion


You may want to read the rest of the tread there, not just the post put out by the sales manager.

[Swampman]

I read it all and he's not the sales manager. I just figured you guys might want to know that NASA and the DOD debunked the oft repeated perclorate stuff.

[waksupi]

I read it all and he's not the sales manager. I just figured you guys might want to know that NASA and the DOD debunked the oft repeated perclorate stuff.

Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants

[shunka]

I know the Mad Monk personally and have corresponded with him for
over ten years. He is a chemist who documents his work and states
only facts. Often those facts make various corporations very unhappy
and those corporations will resort to amazing tactics to try to silence
the truth.

Waksupi is absolutely correct in the information he has related
regarding the corrosiveness of Pyrodex and the Mad Monks test results.

I searched the web extensively and I found no actual documentation of NASA actually testing the corrosion effects of pyrodex. The only references I have found to NASA and pyrodex refer to the use of pyrodex instead of BP for ejection charges in model and amature rockets. Not guns. the use is due to unavailability of BP.

Nor have I found any documentation of DoD testing Pyrodex with regards
to corrosiveness.

In fact I found far more references to Daly's allegations and Daly's own posts, than I found from NASA or the DoD.

If Mike Daly can actually post references to actual documents, especially
with actual document numbers, I would be happy to read them.

Mr Daly has a well known reputation for distortion and fabrications.

It is a well known tactic for various companies to employ mouthpieces
to scan web forums for any discussion of their products, then to
jump in and "spin the conversation" or simply spew lies concerning
said products.

Mike Daly is one of several marketing mouthpieces who try to dump their
shinola as "facts" all over the various boards. On occasion they try
to silence critics with threats. In the past I have run several off of other
forums.

I am rather surprised at swampman's continuation in the face of facts.

It is one thing to opine "well, I still like this product".
It is quite another to front for a well known mouthpiece.

for the record, I use both Pyrodex and BP. I prefer BP.

I am very familiar with the shortcomings of Pyrodex, including difficulty to ignite and corrosiveness; I use it sparingly and clean thoroughly and quickly.
It is better than "no powder" and readily available in stores over-the-counter.

But BP *is* better.

BTW I *did* find numerous mentions of issues with the Perchlorates as found in Pyrodex as potential exacerbating factors during cleanups of EPA toxic waste sites.

yhs
shunka

[Hanshi]

A few years ago I had three cans of Pyrodex given to me by a friend. I use black exclusively but did try the Pyrodex in a .45 Colt. The main thing I noticed was a huge velocity variation, more than I've ever experienced with black. I never throw anything away so will keep the Pyrodex "just in case". I can't speak on corrosion but as I mostly shoot flints, black is what I use.

[Swampman]

It's a well known tactic ro repeat what you heard around the campfire as fact when there are no test what so ever to show that it is. When used exactly like black power there is no difference. Both are corrosive, and both clean up with water. At $5.00 a lb I prefer Pyrodex.

[northmn]

They are not talking about campfire talk but tests done by a professional as Shunka mentioned. At $5 a pound Pyrodex might be shootable, but not in my flintlocks as it doesn't reliably go off, and not in my percussion rifle as it really is not all that accurate, although some have had better luck with it. Most stores selling Pyrodex charge more for it than I can get BP anyway (far more than $5 so I do not use the stuff).

DP

[Swampman]

I've examined the tests by Shunka. They've been bebunked.

[Geraldo]

Where are you getting Pyrodex for $5/lb? Where I am a pound of substitute is at least twice the price of a pound of BP.

As for corrosion, Pyro has potassium perchlorate, which is an oxidizer and will cause corrosion. Whether Pyro causes more or faster corrosion is easily tested, but I've not seen anyone including Hodgdon publish any test results.

[Swampman]

I saw the test. In those I witnessed Pyroxex was actully a lite less corrosive.

[waksupi]

I saw the test. In those I witnessed Pyroxex was actully a lite less corrosive.

You might try what I did. Test it yourself. You're just looking foolish here.

[shunka]

Geraoldo has asked "Where are you getting Pyrodex for $5/lb?"

I found it at those prices at Walmart end of season closeouts, but that was over 4 years ago, and I have found no sales prices even close to that since...

-------------


I've examined the tests by Shunka. They've been bebunked.


Well sir now you have crossed the line. I suggest you clarify yourself immediately or bear the consequences. " bebunked." by who and where are the actual lab results?

Everyone is entitled to their own OPINION, and personal experiences with products can vary, but you sir are claiming things as FACT without supporting evidence, and further you are saying or implying that I am a liar.

I will not tolerate you painting me or the Mad Monk as liars, cheats, scoundrels, or prevaricators.

If you have documented proof, publish it here. But I doubt you have any, or you would have offered it before now.

If you or Mr. Daly can offer actual links to actual NASA or DoD documents then do so. Otherwise stop spreading unsupported nonsense.

I did not make or publish any tests. If you are claiming that you have examined any such tests made by me then I am calling you out here and now as a liar.

If you are claiming you have examined the tests made by the Mad Monk, then I challenge you to post what you claim to have read, as The Mad Monk has provided me (and numerous others) with DVD's containing all his works and posts, and I will gladly compare what you claim you saw against the archived copies, and publish here the differences, the actual lab tests, and the actual results.

Oddly, I have seen you on other sites before this and have not found you to be so unreasonable or foolish before.

As waksupi has said "You're just looking foolish here. "

[Geraldo]

Thanks, shunka. When I first bought BP nearly thirty years ago it was $6-$8 per pound, and I think that Pyrodex was just a bit more. I've seen subs for up to $28 per pound more recently.

While not scientific, there are a number of posts on various boards from black powder cartridge shooters relating to the required care of guns and cartridge cases when using substitutes. That experience has to count for something.

[northmn]

Don't the phoney powders also have a shelf life? I sometimes think that the Pyrodex RS I bought and had bad results with may have been a bit skunky as I did have better results with some Select I tried. The RS would not even hold on paper at 100 yards with the same eqivalent load that BP would shoot inside 3 inches. I sometimes wonder if the bargain prices may not be a bargain if it set on the shelf for a while and was priced to turn over.

Northmn

[Swampman]

You might try what I did. Test it yourself. You're just looking foolish here.

I did test it myself. I found the Pyrodex to be slightly less corrosive. I witnessed another test conducted by a rather large group. They came to the same conclusion and had pics to prove it. What I look like isn't as important as the facts. I get my Pyrodex at Walmart at the end of the season.

[Swampman]

By bebunked I simply meant that quanities of perchlorate salts present were not enogh to cause issues. I wasn't calling anyone a liar.

Black Powder is highly corrosive as are some of the subs. A proper cleaning is all that's required.