Yet another 9mm leading thread

[gefiltephish]

I've always had leading with this gun. My XD9 5" barrel slugs @ .3555. I've tried .356 and .357 (Lee TC). I'm going to try the Mihec 9mm 125 HP boolits @ .358 since they chamber fine. I cast 'em with ww's and water dropped, lube/sized, then let age for 2 weeks. This will be my first time trying water dropped boolits. After reading sooo many threads about folks advising not use too hard an alloy, I stayed away from it. I've used 50/50 range lead/ww, the same + 2% tin, straight ww's, ww's + 2% tin, all air cooled. This barrel leads from one end to the other. It is especially bad with tumble lubing, regardless of formula. It was greatly reduced with the introduction of a Lyman 450 and tubes of Lyman Alox. I've also tried Javelina. It still leads full length, but is not too hard to clean out. Lately I've read quite a few threads about 9mm leading where one common theme (or theory) keeps coming up, skidding due to too soft of an alloy. This is why I'm now trying water dropping. I also understand that too light of a load can prevent the bullet from sealing the bore, but I have tried WSF @ near max and max with no improvement. One observation, the lube groove on the Lee TC is quite small, while the groove on this boolit is noticeably larger. Will it make a difference?

Rifling is R.H. Looking at the breach end with groove at 6 o'clock, the right groove edge seems to be where the heaviest build up is. In my mind this is the trailing edge, but maybe I'm wrong?

BTW, this gun has only had about 500 rounds of jacketed through it, most of that during initial break in. The Lee TC is the only cast boolit that has been shot through it. All total, this gun has seen about 3,000 rounds so far.

I'm hoping to make it to the range today to shoot this boolit for the first time. Any advise would be appreciated.

[mike in co]

re-mic the bore.
try a higher speed lube
what velocity are you shooting at ?

again 1-2 over should be a good size.


max load of wsf is probably too fast...try for 900 to 1100 fps.

keep pressure around 18/19kpsi

[gefiltephish]

Will re-mike again, but I figure .358 oughta be big enough. I've got some speed green on the way. I don't have access to a chrono. I usually use 4.4-4.5 WSF.

I'm heading to the range now to shoot initial tests of the Mihec hp, from starting loads on up, 4 powders, 5 each. I'll be checking and cleaning the barrel after each set of 5. Could be a long afternoon!

[Echo]

Your alloys look good. Boolits that hard will not swage down on seating - unless maybe you are using GI brass, that is thicker and apt to swage down the boolit on seating. How about your crimping procedure? Is it possible that you are swaging the boolits down then?

IMHO, the only way you would be getting that kind of leading is by shooting undersized boolits. I trust your measurement capability, so my only recourse is to suspect the seating (already dealt with) or crimping. Do you use a Lee FC die? Maybe the problem...

[Ole]

I run the Lee 358" FN 125, sized to .357", PB/WW alloy that puts me around 10.5 BHN.

4 grains of HP38. No problems with leading in my SW model 59.

[gefiltephish]

I finally met with success at the range! Zero leading with the new boolits regardless of powder or load.

The only significant differences are the bullet style itself and the fact that the lube groove is larger, and they were run through a .358 sizer.

I use just enough crimp to take the bell out. I take the barrel out of the gun and drop the cartridges into and out of the chamber to check for issues.

First I fired 5 rounds of TG and checked the barrel. It only had a small amount of spent powder. 2 or 3 pulls of a dry bore snake had it cleaned up like new. I followed this same procedure with 3 different charges each of TG, Universal, and WSF. The results were all identical. Well, the WSF appeared to be slightly dirtier. This set was all with water dropped ww.

I had some otherwise identical cartridges made up except that the bullets were air cooled. Just TG and Universal though. This time I didn't clean the bore between. Still no leading.

For comparison I brought a box of the Lee TC's, fired 5 rounds and checked the barrel. Yep, lots of leading. I made this box last July, so they were sized to .356 and I had used the FCD. A few months ago I punched the carbide ring out of the FCD. More recently, I had tried the TC at as cast .358ish because I didn't have that size die for the lubesizer. I had to rely on tumble lubing. I used the modified FCD. It still leaded badly.

I couldn't truly compare accuracy today, only crude observations. The only target stands available today were at 25 yards. I usually shoot 1/2" red dots at 7 yards, and 5 bulls-eyes (per letter size sheet) at 15. I mainly practice for home defense. My small targets are kinda hard to see at 25 yds. I was a bit surprised to notice with the new HP bullet, my groups were considerably tighter with, well, Titegroup. The only other cartridge to beat it was my old TC with 4.6gr of WSF, perhaps only due to familiarity. Of course this is NOT to suggest that I was very accurate. ;) At 25 yds I'm lucky to hit the paper.


Your alloys look good. Boolits that hard will not swage down on seating - unless maybe you are using GI brass, that is thicker and apt to swage down the boolit on seating. How about your crimping procedure? Is it possible that you are swaging the boolits down then?

IMHO, the only way you would be getting that kind of leading is by shooting undersized boolits. I trust your measurement capability, so my only recourse is to suspect the seating (already dealt with) or crimping. Do you use a Lee FC die? Maybe the problem...

[Edubya]

I'm glad that you got this one figured out. Who'd a thought that it would take .358 of lead to seal up a .3555 pipe?
If you want to tighten up those groups at 25 yds, you might want to go to http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=419623 and get yourself a BAR STO Match Target barrel. Yeah, it's $200 smackers but if you've got an ego that needs fulfilling this ought to do it. Oh, and my Bar Sto slugs to .3545" and can shoot my older cast (.356) boolits.
EW

[gefiltephish]

My "358" TC's were just barely .358, and not perfectly round (I had no sizer at that time). I can only wonder if my success was due to the Mihec bullet starting out at .3585 - .359, and then sizing to .358. This would have kept them more round in order to prevent gas leakage. As you pointed out though, it shouldn't take a bullet this large to seal up this barrel. I suspect the greater amount of lube made quite a bit of difference as well. I'll re-slug the barrel again by the weekend. Maybe my first measurement was off?

I don't think I need a fancy barrel, as my only goal is home defense. Still, one can't help but enjoy the challenge to constantly improve. I don't have excess funds, so I have to settle for what I need rather than what I want.

Stopped in a Sarco tonight to make a deal on an RIA 9mm. Was hoping to trade in the XD, but the guy I need to speak to wasn't there. Ah well, I'll go again on Friday. Just hope I won't have to start the whole leading thing all over again. LOL!!

[chris in va]

Sounds exactly like my situation. Horrible issues with .356 TC boolits, so a nice fella pointed out the .358 RF boolit to me and all is well with the world.

[Edubya]

My "358" TC's were just barely .358, and not perfectly round (I had no sizer at that time). I can only wonder if my success was due to the Mihec bullet starting out at .3585 - .359, and then sizing to .358. This would have kept them more round in order to prevent gas leakage. As you pointed out though, it shouldn't take a bullet this large to seal up this barrel. I suspect the greater amount of lube made quite a bit of difference as well. I'll re-slug the barrel again by the weekend. Maybe my first measurement was off?

I don't think I need a fancy barrel, as my only goal is home defense. Still, one can't help but enjoy the challenge to constantly improve. I don't have excess funds, so I have to settle for what I need rather than what I want.

Stopped in a Sarco tonight to make a deal on an RIA 9mm. Was hoping to trade in the XD, but the guy I need to speak to wasn't there. Ah well, I'll go again on Friday. Just hope I won't have to start the whole leading thing all over again. LOL!!

I sure wouldn't get rid of that XD. I have 2 of 'em and love 'em! I did the Powder River (drop-in) trigger job http://shop.powderriverprecision.net/product.sc?productId=3 on my 4" and had Springfield do their thing on the 5". I can tell you that they are the envy of the gun club. Both of them can shoot a 99 at 25 yds. Many of the 1911 group want to shoot my XD9 at the meets.
EW

[jbremount]

I sure wouldn't get rid of that XD. I have 2 of 'em and love 'em! I did the Powder River (drop-in) trigger job http://shop.powderriverprecision.net/product.sc?productId=3 on my 4" and had Springfield do their thing on the 5". I can tell you that they are the envy of the gun club. Both of them can shoot a 99 at 25 yds. Many of the 1911 group want to shoot my XD9 at the meets.
EW


I would not get rid of an XD for a RIA.

[gefiltephish]

I already have an RIA (45) and I like it. I also have the PRP trigger kit - HUGE improvement. I'm much more consistent with the 1911. I have no idea how much of that difference has to do with caliber. There's nothing wrong with the XD, I'm just not feelin' the love. Kinda like that girl who was a lotta fun for a while, but ya just know when it's time to move on.

[jbremount]

I already have an RIA (45) and I like it. I also have the PRP trigger kit - HUGE improvement. I'm much more consistent with the 1911. I have no idea how much of that difference has to do with caliber. There's nothing wrong with the XD, I'm just not feelin' the love. Kinda like that girl who was a lotta fun for a while, but ya just know when it's time to move on.

The CZ-75 is a good shooting 9mm pistol. All steel, accurate as hell, low recoil.They used to be priced very attractively, $350ish. The price has really gone up. I think the CZ-75b is a great 9mm pistol. Anyway, it's your call.

[chris in va]

If you like all steel pistols, have a look at the Kahr T9. Full size, excellent DAO trigger, very smooth. I have a CZ 75 as jbremount stated and it is also a very good gun.

[jbremount]

Good deal on a CZ-75b here:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=169715951

[gefiltephish]

I'm aware that the folks who have CZ's seem to like them a lot. Unfortunately, I've never had the opportunity to handle one, never mind shoot one.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I had a similiar problem with a Browning Hi Power. With J word bullets at .355 it shoots great. With a Lee Truncated Cone Tumble Lubed boolit at .356 it get fouled up and quits shooting at about 25 rounds.

All kinds of junk in the chamber and the innards of the gun and the cases are really sooty and black. Gas blow by because the boolits are too small. I did not notice any leading but the gun just plain shoots .356 boolits badly.

Now take a lead boolit and size it at .358 and the Browning will sing all day long and not get dirty. No leading, no blackened cases and excellent accuracy.

Fit is king with lead.

The 9 MM is not the easiest calibre to load cast for as the fit has to be on the money and the shape of the projectile is critical as well as the hardness of the lead alloy. OAL is important as a round loaded too short will cause the pressure to spike and the dreaded KABOOM is possible.

I have had good success with the Mihec 125 gr cramer HP boolits recently. Loaded over 3.3 gr of Unique and sized and lubed with lars 45 Carnuba Red and sized at .358 my EAA Witness Match Elite steel gun loves 'em. Pretty accurate also. Mine are coming in at 131 grns however but this is straight WW's with a water quench after casting. The brass is anything I can lay my hands on and my biggest problem is the dreaded 380 ACP casing jamming up my casefeeder on my Dillon 550B.

They really jam the silly thing but if I have pure 9 MM cases I can get a couple of hundred rounds done pretty fast. It helps to have extra primer tubes loaded ahead of time, a goodly supply of boolits in the tray, a full powder measure and a big box of 9 MM cases ready to throw into the casefeeder.

Ya gotta pay attention to what you are doing but once you get going you do not want to stop. You only have four things to do. Pull the handle down and then pull it up and push it to seat the primer with your right hand. With your left hand pick up a boolit from the tray and index the shellplate with one of your left hand fingers while still holding the boolit. Once the shellplate is in the next position you insert the boolit into the case mouth and go back to pulling down the handle with your right hand and grab another boolit with your left hand.

Every hundred rounds ya hafta recharge the primer magazine and every so often grab a handful of cases and throw them into the casefeeder.

Oh one more thing you need to clean out the completed rounds tray from time to time when it gets full of brand new cartridges.

It's so easy a caveman could do it.