Based on numbers alone, which would you use.....

[O9Tacoma4x4]

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. My question is based on the below numbers alone, which would you use as your "regular" load. After 48 hours have passed, I'll disclose the gun/COAL/projectile/primer and powder. It's probably pretty easy for an experienced handloader to accurately guess what my combination is. The reason I'd prefer to do it this way, is I'm not real understanding of Standard deviation and extreme spread. Plus, I'd really like opinion of gun and consumables to stay out of the equation and only let "the numbers speak" so to speak.
These are all based off my Chrony Alpha Master. 7 yards, off hand. Mid 60's weather. Little to no wind. The reason I elected to add #shot/string, is because some ammunition failed to fire or I failed to produce a full 10 loads for that particular charge. - designates end of a data line

So here we go.
Low High Average #shots/string Extreme spread Stan. Deviation.
1167- 1176- 1171- 8- 8.97- 3.16-A
1167- 1174- 1171- 9- 7.25- 2.44-B
1182- 1189- 1186- 10- 6.50- 2.44-C
1076- 1282- 1173- 10- 205.7- 59.59-D
1098- 1250- 1198- 8- 211.8- 79.91-E
459.2- 1258- 1127- 10- 799.1- 314.9-F
1160- 1510- 1369- 10- 349- 148.6-G
1073- 1540- 1391- 8- 466.9- 228.3-H
2091- 2176- 2128- 7- 85.97- 32.74-I

Thanks to those of you who chime in.

[UnderDawgAl]

Load #1, 2 and 3 look like the best ones.

Looks like you had a problem with load #6. Perhaps a case without a full charge of powder.

Extreme spread = Highest velocity minus the lowest velocity. It gives you the range of velocities within the shot string. A low extreme spread tells you that all the shots in that string are consistently running about the same speed.

Standard deviation = statistical measure based on the famous Bell Curve. Probably not as useful since you would need a large number of shots in the string to provide better statistical sample. However, generally speaking, the lower the standard deviation, the more consistently all the shots in the string are performing similarly.

[Lloyd Smale]

the one that the most accurate at 50 yards.

[bigboredad]

I agree with Lloyd. Those numbers don't really mean anything without out knowing how each load grouped. Personally a chrono is the last thing I use when working up a load. To me group size is way more important jmho

[MtGun44]

As odd as it sounds, I find literally no correlation between extreme spread or std deviation
and accuracy.

I first noted this with 200 gr SWC cast in .45 ACP over Unique. Very accurate load, but the
extreme spread is horrible! Like up to 100 fps or even more occasionally for 10 shots. But
it will shoot great. I have since seen it in many calibers, so I never worry about low
variations - doesn't seem to have anything to do with accuracy and that is all I care about
for fun shooting. For hunting loads, accy is important but bullet/boolit performance is a
key issue.

[Mk42gunner]

I agree with Lloyd also, accuracy is better than numbers.

Robert

[Bass Ackward]

Plus, I'd really like opinion of gun and consumables to stay out of the equation and only let "the numbers speak" so to speak.

So here we go.
Low High Average #shots/string Extreme spread Stan. Deviation.
1167- 1176- 1171- 8- 8.97- 3.16-A
1167- 1174- 1171- 9- 7.25- 2.44-B
1182- 1189- 1186- 10- 6.50- 2.44-C
1076- 1282- 1173- 10- 205.7- 59.59-D
1098- 1250- 1198- 8- 211.8- 79.91-E
459.2- 1258- 1127- 10- 799.1- 314.9-F
1160- 1510- 1369- 10- 349- 148.6-G
1073- 1540- 1391- 8- 466.9- 228.3-H
2091- 2176- 2128- 7- 85.97- 32.74-I

Thanks to those of you who chime in.


This is absolutely scary and brings back a bad memory for me from about 35 years ago. Except for the last line "I", those could all be the same load. Yes Sir, I have been there and done that!!! Seen this with PB cast in an 8 3/8s 357 Magnum. And here is the play by play.

Dummie me looks in a book and loads up a box of shells with 12.5 grains of 2400 that is well within the safe zone and gets side tracked for a couple of weeks before I can go to the range. So now I am eager (chomping at the bit) to see how this works out as this is my first attempt with cast in this gun. (You just know a disaster is unfolding. :grin:)

Everything starts out OK. in "A", "B", and "C". Then on "D' I get the 1284 and a puff of white smoke. (augh oh, and I still have half a box of shells left) The reason for the slightly low numbers as seen in "D" would be from a loss of seal as that round removed a large chunk of lead deposited by the bullet in front of it that blew the ugly white smoke.

The 459 figure in "F" was because I store my ammo nose down and I missed wiping off a base. That lube contaminated some of the powder. Either that, or the powder measure choked up and I wasn't paying attention so the next cartridge that was fired in "G" got just a little bit more. And that REALLY started the leading going wild.

By the time I get to "G", I am blowing white smoke like I was smoke stack. Some cases are starting to stick now, and I could care less. I am ticked off, so I shoot up the last just to get rid of this stuff.

Yep. Been there and done that. The velocity figures are scary because I thought that maybe you were looking over my shoulder some 35 years ago. That last row "I" looks like I took out my 458X2 and was so ticked at leading the 357, I decided to try and shoot the chrono which I eventually did a year or two later. (traitorous piece of equipment!) :grin:

I did that to show you what numbers tell you and how they can lie. That's it. Could be all the same load.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont pay much attention to the numbers either. I use a chrono alot but do it to find the velocity in a certain gun that a load is giving me or when im loading at the ragged edge (which i rarely do anymore) to see if strange things are happening and i use it occasionaly to test stuff like primers. If a load shoots good with two differnt primers i will test both to see which is more consistant but if the accurcy is better with the primer with bigger spreads its still used. Only exception to this is loads I use for long range shooting. When your shooting a sixgun out to 500 yards a velocity spread of a 100 fps will put bullets all over the place out there.

[HeavyMetal]

Proof of any load is always alway always on paper!

[spqrzilla]

Loads F,G, and H have a serious problem of some kind. Assuming that you did not have a poorly setup chronograph then: Either powder bridging in the measure, powder contamination, poorly seated primer or the need to use a magnum primer to ignite a difficult powder. "F" especially would worry me.

Otherwise, the data is not really anything I'd pay attention to, the proof is on the paper.

[Larry Gibson]

If the assumption from your basic question is that this is all with the same load(?); then given the readings from line D through I there are serious problems with the chronograph set up, it is probably to close to the muzzle given the large ES of lines D through H and the very high readings from line I.

If the assumption is all these are different loads (?); the loads of A, B and C are all very good and would need additional testing/targeting. Loads of lines D - H show some serious problems with powder ignition or neck tension or crimp. The load for line I is a very good one if tthis is a magnum load out of a couple revolver cartridges or if of a magnum load out of a 10"+ Contender/Encore.

As to the use of a chronograph; several mention they've no or little use for chronograph data with handgun loads. I, to the contrary, have used chronograph data since '75 in my load development. Using the data has certainly cut down on the target testing of numerous different powders and powder charges. This has saved componants and my time. However, I did learn very early on that a chase of low ES or SDs just for their sake is many times a waste of effort. One must understand what is an acceptable ES with an attendant SD considering the variations possible for a given cartridge and firearm. For example. Closed breach handguns like Contenders normallu will give smaller ES and SD of a given load than will revolvers.

One must understand that the chronograph data is only a measurement of some of the internal ballistics of the loads. Given a .357 revolver with magnum loads for example; we have two loads that seemingly group the same at 25 or even 50 yards but one has an ES of 85 fps and the other 150 fps for 12 shots. The load that has the ES of 85 fps will prove to be the most accurate over a much larger sample of rounds and also at longer range.

I stated this before and I believe it is applicable here. We should not choose a load based on chronograph data alone. Nor, with the general availability of chronographs, should we choose a handgun load based on a single 50 yard or less group sized alone. Using the chronograph data to assure ourselves of consistent internal ballistic consistency and a sufficient target grouping to ensure external ballistic consistency is the best and quickest way of load development. Simply put; use both.

Larry Gibson

[KYCaster]

Doesn't really mean anything without more info.

Just a teaser....:coffee:

Jerry

[O9Tacoma4x4]

This is absolutely scary and brings back a bad memory for me from about 35 years ago. Except for the last line "I", those could all be the same load. Yes Sir, I have been there and done that!!! Seen this with PB cast in an 8 3/8s 357 Magnum. And here is the play by play.

Dummie me looks in a book and loads up a box of shells with 12.5 grains of 2400 that is well within the safe zone and gets side tracked for a couple of weeks before I can go to the range. So now I am eager (chomping at the bit) to see how this works out as this is my first attempt with cast in this gun. (You just know a disaster is unfolding. :grin:)

Everything starts out OK. in "A", "B", and "C". Then on "D' I get the 1284 and a puff of white smoke. (augh oh, and I still have half a box of shells left) The reason for the slightly low numbers as seen in "D" would be from a loss of seal as that round removed a large chunk of lead deposited by the bullet in front of it that blew the ugly white smoke.

The 459 figure in "F" was because I store my ammo nose down and I missed wiping off a base. That lube contaminated some of the powder. Either that, or the powder measure choked up and I wasn't paying attention so the next cartridge that was fired in "G" got just a little bit more. And that REALLY started the leading going wild.

By the time I get to "G", I am blowing white smoke like I was smoke stack. Some cases are starting to stick now, and I could care less. I am ticked off, so I shoot up the last just to get rid of this stuff.

Yep. Been there and done that. The velocity figures are scary because I thought that maybe you were looking over my shoulder some 35 years ago. That last row "I" looks like I took out my 458X2 and was so ticked at leading the 357, I decided to try and shoot the chrono which I eventually did a year or two later. (traitorous piece of equipment!) :grin:

I did that to show you what numbers tell you and how they can lie. That's it. Could be all the same load.

I promise, I'm not a voyeur. :lol:
The scary part is, I had some shots in the 7.5 to 7.7 string that I could not find on paper. I thought I was getting through and throughs or possibly they were just exploding in flight. However my chrony was not getting damaged, only bits of powder.

As promised thou, what the gun is. Springfield Armory XD40. Service. Has a 4 inch barrel. The primer was Remington. The brass is mixed. The COAL is 1.200 (I believe). The Powder was Unique. The projectile was a 155gr LRN from Vances bullets.

I appreciate it greatly to everybody who offered input. I've been reloading for about 2 months now, and never grew up around guns. Everything I've learned has been self taught or weened from forums, books and trial and error (loading up 185 rounds of .45 ACP, .02 grains lower then whats needed to cycle the slide. Then proceeding to spend the next afternoon w/ a kinetic bullet puller reclaiming projectile,powder and primer.)

I understand the Chrony is not an end all for load development, now. It should be used as a crutch rather then a leg to stand on.
As soon as I get a reliable lead supplier and decide what molds each gun likes I have every intent of casting my own lead. Thanks again everyone. You helped me instead of "flaming" me.

[Bass Ackward]

I understand the Chrony is not an end all for load development, now. It should be used as a crutch rather then a leg to stand on.
As soon as I get a reliable lead supplier and decide what molds each gun likes I have every intent of casting my own lead. Thanks again everyone. You helped me instead of "flaming" me.


Instead of just living on boards hoping for an answer, watch for someone that seems to have the same interests as you and appears to know what he is doing. (that's the hard part :grin:)Try and strike up a relationship and then you can send him a PM or an email to cover stuff you might be .... tentative to ask about.

Take the ammo thing. For $5 - $10 you could have maybe bought a lighter spring that would allow lighter stuff to work. Would have saved all that time. I used to have a standard, light and a heavy for the 1911 so that I could load what I wanted. Don't know about these new fangled brass flippers.

Old guys hate bending over for brass. A guy asked me if I had a polymer? I said I never used them, but there is a drug store just down the street. Shows what I know.

[Larry Gibson]

O9Tacoma4x4

The scary part is, I had some shots in the 7.5 to 7.7 string that I could not find on paper. I thought I was getting through and throughs or possibly they were just exploding in flight. However my chrony was not getting damaged, only bits of powder.

As promised thou, what the gun is. Springfield Armory XD40. Service. Has a 4 inch barrel. The primer was Remington. The brass is mixed. The COAL is 1.200 (I believe). The Powder was Unique. The projectile was a 155gr LRN from Vances bullets.

This demonstrates that the load was probably good but the bullet wasn't. A different bullet with that load may produce much different results on target. Internally the load was fine.

I have to ask since you mention "bits of powder" on the Chrony; how far from the muzzle was the Chrony?


I understand the Chrony is not an end all for load development, now. It should be used as a crutch rather then a leg to stand on. I'll disagree a bit here; since you have the chrony it should be one leg to stand on, the results on target should be the other leg. Much better balance with two legs than just one, even with a crutch.

Larry Gibson

[O9Tacoma4x4]

Larry- "I have to ask since you mention "bits of powder" on the Chrony; how far from the muzzle was the Chrony?" I'd say 8 feet. Our tables are pretty good sized at the range, about 3 feet long and it was atleast 5 feet from the table. Add the arms length or so I was shooting over table, about 7 or 8 feet. I noticed my log book, after every 10 hot string had bits of unburnt powder as well. It was staining the page, I just had to pick it up, bump it on the table and proceed to write my string velocitys.

I think I'm going to reload 2 sets of the first 5 stings, and then accuracy test them. I may possibly be done w/ Vance bullets as well. I'm not one to bash a Guys product, I'm just simply stating my experience w/ this latest batch. The .45ACP I just recently began loading up w/ a 230gr LRN projectile from Vance clogs my die up. Relatively fast at that. Every 25 or so loaded I've got to strip the die down and clean the sides and setter out. The blue lube or something is causing the projectiles to get a scuff of lead on the outside neck. In a wheel gun this would not be that big of deal, but in a auto, it becomes a cycling reliability issue. I just picked up my .38spc lead, and am going to give Vances a 2nd chance, but if these give me fits, I'm done w/ the product. I'll break down and drive to each tire shop, recycling center and papermill to drum up lead.

[KYCaster]

OK, something doesn't add up here.

In your original post you said you'd give us some details, but I still would like more information.

You say you used Unique for the loads in this test. Load F shows one shot at 459.2 fps. Can you explain why that shot was ~600 fps lower than the average for that string? I've found Unique to be much more consistent than that.

For load I you claim 2128 fps average. I won't go so far as to say that's impossible, but I think it's VERY UNLIKELY. I suppose it's possible that your 7 or 8 feet between muzzle and chrono could cause some erratic readings but, if that's the case, I wouldn't expect them to be as consistent as those you report. Minimum distance to the chrono is generally considered 10 ft. with occasional problems from muzzle blast at that distance.

Load development tests such as this are usually reported with lowest powder charge weight listed first and progressing to heaviest powder charge listed last. Your numbers don't reflect this to be the case. One of the UNIQUE things about Unique is its consistent predictability. Within its useful range you can expect a linear increase in pressure/velocity from very light loads all the way to its upper limit. That's not what you report, so I suspect that there are other factors affecting your results.

Please pardon me if I come across as being overly critical, but.....ummm.......well.......I'm being critical!! :roll: You admit that you have very little reloading experience and I think this may be the source of some of the inconsistencies in your results.

You haven't told us the powder charges in your various loads, or how you dropped the charges(weighed or thrown with a measure) or anything else about your reloading process. That may give us some clue to the cause of your inconsistent results.

Another thing that concerns me is a statement in your last post...."... 230gr LRN projectile from Vance clogs my die up. Relatively fast at that. Every 25 or so loaded I've got to strip the die down and clean the sides and setter out. The blue lube or something is causing the projectiles to get a scuff of lead on the outside neck."

There a couple of things that could cause this condition. You may not be expanding the case mouth enough to accept the lead boolit, or you may be seating and crimping with the same die. Either one could lead to the condition you describe.

A detailed description of your reloading equipment and procedures would probably help diagnose your problems.

Good luck.

Jerry

[rhead]

I agree with Lloyd. Those numbers don't really mean anything without out knowing how each load grouped. Personally a chrono is the last thing I use when working up a load. To me group size is way more important jmho

That has also been my experience.

[Larry Gibson]

09Tacoma4x4

Larry- "I have to ask since you mention "bits of powder" on the Chrony; how far from the muzzle was the Chrony?" I'd say 8 feet. Our tables are pretty good sized at the range, about 3 feet long and it was atleast 5 feet from the table. Add the arms length or so I was shooting over table, about 7 or 8 feet.

There in is the problem with the eratic numbers; the chronograph is to close to the muzzle. I'd suggest in the future you have the start screen not closer than 10 feet from the actual muzzle. I prefere 15 feet myself. Ech time you go to the range you might also set the start screen up the same distance. A small tape measure in the kit takes up little room. This allows accurate comparison of data from day to day. However, you must also be aware of the varience between strings of the same load. A good way to establish that is, with the start screen at a measured distance, fire 5 five shot strings and note the ES of the average velocities of the 5 strings. If the lowest 5 shot string was 1125 fps and the highest 5 shot string was 1145 fps then you could expect with decent probability that any other test strings would run at or between those. Also not the ambient temperature. Then when you come out on another day with a new lot of the same powder you have the data to work up an equal load. You also have data to make comparisons of other loads. Data, if understood and used correctly, is very useful. If not then it is "mumbo jumbo" as stated.

Larry Gibson

[BABore]

I was thinking the same thing when I first read this thread the other day. I didn't read the original post correctly where it said "Chrony Alpha Master. 7 yards, off hand". I took that as he had the Chrony 21 feet away which would have been good. Any time I get funky chrono numbers I back off more and try again. I learned the hard way when I had both my 480 Ruger and 450 Marlin GG clocking over 2,500 fps. The dead give away was the screens flopping around with no breeze.:bigsmyl2:

[O9Tacoma4x4]

KYCaster-"There a couple of things that could cause this condition. You may not be expanding the case mouth enough to accept the lead boolit, or you may be seating and crimping with the same die. Either one could lead to the condition you describe."

I think actually, I was not cleaning my necks throughly. I bought an RCBS trim mate center, and maybe 1 of of 150-300 scuffs the neck edge. Not enough to clog the die thou.
As for the way off load you had mentioned. I remember the last few string were off hand sitting. No elbos on table or tucked in close. I just got tired of standing. When I did that in order to not hit the 4x4 post Our RO like to whine about, I had to aim higher in the chrony. I'm thinking that may have been the major contributor.

I did like everyone mentioned and accuracy tested them. I'm still working out the measurements. I used the bottom 4 loads from HP-38, Unique, Clays, Bullseye. And used an RCBS Chargemaster. Prior to that in my inital loadings from above, I used an MTM grain scale.

[JSH]

Just my thoughts on chrono readings.
A good group at 25-50 is not that hard to get. It is when you go to 100 and beyond that the numbers rear their ugly head.
I have come to the point to set up my chrono a good ways away from my muzzle. As mentioned a tape is handy but I have a piece of cord that is 30 feet long marked off in 5 foot increments. Measuring tape always seemed to get removed from the box for some reason.
Goofy numbers. I still keep track of them but disregaurd them for over all usage, as long as there isn't several the same. If there are several "wild" readings, then I have a concern.
I used to try to shoot for groups along with running over the chrono. I gave that up. I either worry about getting the bullet over the screen or hitting the dot, not both. I got more readings and better groups.
Two or three rounds over the chrono tells very little imho. A bare minimum of 10 is what I like. This tells me what is going on a lot more as the barrel fouls.

Good notes are hard to replace with a poor memory. I wish I had been in the note taking mode 20 years ago. It would have saved me a lot of work, powder, primer and time now.

jeff