Design help requested

[Wayne Smith]

I'm trying to design a mould for my 8x56R Hungarian. Bore is .3175", groove is .332". Dan won't design a bullet over .332 to fit an 8mm gas check because the sizing dies won't seat an 8mm gas check at sizes larger than that. I currently have 2000 8mm gas checks and don't really want to buy .338 gc's unless I have to.

Casting wdww will a .332" mould be a disaster, or is it likely to work? I'm about ready to bet it will bump up, but can't order a mould yet anyway, so I thought I'd ask.

[Buckshot]

...............I'm of 2 minds about this rifle and what it takes. My 2 examples (M95 and a M95/30) both have enormous throats, and barrel measurements like yours although the bore of the M95 is .316".

I have gotten better accuracy with slugs sized a bit over the groove rather then when I shot 338 cal cast boolit's sized to .338" (.340" as cast), trying to fill the throat.

http://www.fototime.com/E5F797678DB6438/standard.jpg

A) A Saeco .366" tapered PB schuetzen slug. 205grs
B) Lee 338 caliber slug 210gr
C) RCBS 338 caliber slug 207grs
D) Oldfeller 1st incarnation Mountain Moulds slug

What is really missing in this lineup is a full on bore rider. Normally I favor Loverins but in the case of this cartridge there is a LOT of lead being displaced as the boolit is engraved. To date the best accuracy I've had out of either carbione has been with the Oldfeller. The 338 boolits have a .330" nose which is rather large compared to the bore, in these rifles.

Due to the short neck of this cartridge and the long leade, I'd kind of lean toward a sort of 314299 looking slug. Maybe going .335" on the drive bands and .318" on a rather bluntly rounded nose? Or even a similar one but with a DD type band?

................Buckshot

[Wayne Smith]

I was thinking of a nose rider, or modified nose rider. What exactly is a DD band? I've seen it in the NEI catalog but don't ever remember a clear definition. But fromwhat you are saying I'd better forget using 8mm gcs and invest in some 338 gcs.

My throat appears to be .384" long and .3425" diameter at the mouth of the cartridge. That is rough, from a pound slug, not a chamber cast. I guess I gotta invest in some more cerrosafe, huh?

[Bass Ackward]

Gee Wiz Wayne,

I can understand filling the throat as a theory. But not when it takes you up a bore diameter. I have no experience with your gun or caliber, but I would think that .002 - .004 over bore would work for anything.

A DD band is a way to fit and support an improperly fitted bore ride nose. It is a fairly narrow band (or ring) on the front of the bullet's nose that is weak enough to crush fit by the rifling upon chambering. Crush fit is "subjective" because DD bands are normally one size fits all and it "can" limit the hardness of your bullets in order to get them to chamber. And rifling height "here" can be a PIA.

[StarMetal]

In my opinion this rifle shoots fine with what is out there. Mine wears a peep sight and I've consistantly shot 7/8 inch groups at 100 yards. Yup you read that right. That's with the last bullet Oldfeller designed for it called the Boxcar. The first one was called Frankenstein, but the mould got destroyed, long story. I've also used the Lee bullet for the 338 and yes with 338 gaschecks. Buckshot and Oldfeller both were astonished at a picture I posted of a recovered fired bullet, with gascheck intact yet, that from a base view the 338 gascheck looked almost square from being crushed down in the bore. Remember that Buckshot? Yet it still shot good. If Lee would have made their 329 bullet, especiall for the 8x56R, the right size, that is bigger, it would be a very good one. I've shot the 8x56R exstensively and feel I'm well versused on it. It's one of my favorite rifles and for what the little carbine is, it shoots terrific in my opinion. I've been through all the ins and outs with this caliber and can tell you what brass will work, which won't so good, bullets, etc.

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

OK, Joe. Go for it. Yea, I'm asking for it, this is my first one, and I really like the way it handles. After putting a new sear spring in it I'm itching to get it to the range, albeit all I have is military ammo. I have brass (Privi Partisan, I bet) coming from Buff Arms. I have no bullet yet, and the only one I know that is specially for it is the condom bullet that Graf's has. The Lee tands to come in undersize, and I have yet to find an NEI that would fit right.

Again, I'm thinking a bore rider right at .417-.418 nose. I'm thinking most any alloy will swell .0005 when the powder change acts agianst inertia, thus .417 would be no problem. I think I'd need a body .334-.335, and on Mountian Molds that necessitates using a .338 gas check.

[9.3X62AL]

Wayne--

The 9.3mm boolits (.367") use .375" gas checks, and they do just fine.

[StarMetal]

Wayne,

Okay, first off there is brass available from Grafs. That is when they have it in stock. That's your first choice. Now if you have to make it from something else you'll hear to use 45-70 and 7.62x54R Russian. They will say all you have to do with the Russian brass is size it. Okay, here's what is wrong with both mentioned about. The 45-70 is ALOT of work. You have to work down the rim diameter and thickness and the web in alot of instances. Lot of work, especially without a lathe. What do you end up with? Well brass that is just a hair short and DOESN'T last long!! Okay next the Russain. They end up TOO short and I mean too short. the 8x56R doesn't have much of neck to start with and using the Russian leaves just about nothing to hold a bullet. Yeah, it will work in a pinch, but not great. Okay what can one use to form brass. Well believe it or not 350 Rem Mag brass. All you have to do is work the web down just tad (can be done in a drill press with a file and steady hand) and just size it. It's the perfect right lenght. The rim is big enough to catch the extractor. I used it for years (never lost one case either) and still have it now, but bought dedicated brass. Also any of the Winchester magnum brass will work but more work and you end up with thicker necks, sometimes too thick.

Next bullets. Lee come out with that 329 which for most rifles out there is too small. I personally haven't seen a 8x56R with a groove diameter that tight. Ask Buckshot. The Lee bullet meant for the 338 sized down to what size you want to go to, with a 338 gascheck, works great. Also very good are the two bullets Oldfeller designed, the one deceased now. For jacketed bullets Grafs from time to time has had some. But here's what you can do. Hornady use to make a flat nose bullet for the old 33 Winchester. It's a 338 diameter. It's also thin jacketed for that low velocity cartridge and makes a darn good hunting jacketed bullet for the 8x56R. You can size it down easily in a Lee push through sizer. I sized mine done in my Lyman 45 luber/sizer which I made a die for the right size to my groove diameter.

Backing up alittle bit on brass. Buckshot will tell you that you can take the original Berdan brass (there was alot of surplus around) and with the proper drill size you can drill out the primer hole/flashole to fit a 209 shotgun primer. These would be only for very low pressure plinking rounds. DO NOT USE THIS SYSTEM FOR HOT LOADS!!!!!!!

Just about any powder I've tried in mine shoots good. Mine you I don't fancy using pistol powders. I've got those 7/8 inch groups at 100 yards with 860 surplus and 5010 surplus. Also shoots great with surplus 4895 and surplus 844. So you can see it's adaptable.

It's really an easy cartridge and rifle to load for. Not very finicky on feeding various bullet nose styles and it's not short throated and the magazine have a fair amount of leeway for cartridge lenght. The four groove deep rifling is very conductive to good cast bullet shooting.

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

Thanks, Joe. This gets printed! Is the Oldfeller mold available? Midsouth, right?

[StarMetal]

No, it was a mould that Oldfeller only had one made up by Mountain Moulds. You might strike him a deal for some bullets or maybe borrow the mould for a fee. I say this cause Oldfeller kinda had a mould ruined lending it out. Long story.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Again, I'm thinking a bore rider right at .417-.418 nose. I'm thinking most any alloy will swell .0005 when the powder change acts agianst inertia, thus .417 would be no problem. I think I'd need a body .334-.335, and on Mountian Molds that necessitates using a .338 gas check.


Wayne,

Why tie yourself down to one mix?

Instead of trying to get one nose diameter, cheat. Start at .415 and taper it up to .420 back by the first drive band. This way if you change mix which changes diameter, you simply adjust seating depth. Another reason is if you like the caliber and get a second gun, chances are you can make the same mold work.

I would prefer this to a DD band or a straight diameter nose if you want to go bore ride.

[Haywire Haywood]

You might strike him a deal for some bullets or maybe borrow the mould for a fee.

I realize I'm kinda butting in here, but it sounds like he wants to buy a mold. Oldfeller... do you have any objections to plugging your dims into Dan's design page and posting a screen capture or .JPG? That way, he can just order the mold when Dan starts taking orders again. Seems like the simplest thing to do unless it's a protected "trade secret". :-D

Ian

[Buckshot]

...............Joe, up I recall all 'dat stuff' :-) I was never able to equal the accuracy you've obtained at 100 yards. To date some of my best groups have hovered around a inch and a bit at 50 yards. Both my unmodified carbines wear their issue sights.

http://www.fototime.com/97D8CFD115331D0/standard.jpg

Some 8x56R milsurp brass modified to 209 shotshell primers. These are good for a 200 gr slug at about 1600 FPS before they begin to pierce. No longer necessary with the good brass available from Graf & Son.

If you get Lee dies, or anyone else's I suppose, be advised they're made to use and seat a .329" jacketed slug. One of these days if I ever get any time I really should buckle down and wring my 2 critters out. However I can say that about 10 other guns I have!

If I could find another one cheap, I'd buy it for the action and have it chambered to the 40-60 Maynard which is the 30-40 Krag blown out and shortened a tad. The conversion I did to a M95/30 into 30-40 Krag is a blast and a very simple job to accomplish.

When you consider the military ballistics of a 208gr slug at 2300 fps, and that from a 19.5" bbl, you can see it's a big hammer in a small package. Look at the 308 with a 200+ gr slug (mind the bbl length) for an idea.

.................Buckshot