444 Marlin vs 44 Magnum

[Suo Gan]

What can a 444 Marlin do that a 44 mag cannot with cast (in a rifle)?

[6pt-sika]

444 can handle a 400 grain bullet , but a 44 MAG I would say can't !

[44 flattop]

Produce substantially more velocity with any bullet weight!

44

[EOD3]

With either rifle, you'll probably want to limit the velocity anyway, velocity will pretty much be a wash.

The main question is rifling, twist, and throat that will generally limit the bullet weight/length.

Not knowing the rifle(s) in question, I can't WAG an answer. :smile:

[missionary5155]

Good evening
The 444 will do it with alot less pressure using the same boolit. And as mentioned you can really get into Heavy Boolits.
It is the same as comparing a 45 Colt to the 45-70. I have both and I figure if I really need more than a 275 grain bolit I get out a 45-70 and Charlie Mike.
But also the short actions are much nicer to tote about the vegetation and where I stalk about in the state of ILL there really are no 45-70 critters lurking about.

[crabo]

I don't have a 44, but it seems like enough people have complained of problems making a 44 shoot well, that I have no real interest in having one. I just do the 357 mag and jump to the 45/70.

So the 444 would be the way I would go.

[Old Goat Keeper]

I don't know about most 44 mag rifles shoting poorly but I DO know that the Marlin 1894 model has a very in appropriate twist in 44 mag. You want atlest 1-18 twist if I remember rightly.

Tom

[Newtire]

I have a 1-38" twist micro-groove marlin and it shoots the cast 240-250 grain at about 1700 fps with no troubles. I have shot moly lubed Bear Creek brand bullets at up to j-word speeds with real great accuracy.

Another thing the .444 can do is kick the sh** out of you.

[Suo Gan]

Another thing the .444 can do is kick the sh** out of you.

I can always count on Newtire for linear thinking :p.

[MT Gianni]

It can give you harder to obtain ammo and brass and 6? shots vs 10 or 11.

[Lightning Ross]

A Winchester trapper in 44mag with a 300 grain boolit at max will make you have to start over your shooting training to get rid of your flinching problem. It will flip a 2 ft square 1/2 inch steel plate hanging target flip clear over in a complete circle. And knock a blacktail deer plumb off his feet at a hundred yards.

[NickSS]

I do not own a 444 Marlin but do own several 44 Mag lever guns. I have yet to get one of them shooting better than around 3 inches at 100 yards. Actually most of my loads go 4 to 6 inches at that range and some or worse than that. I guess I just have not found a combo that works. I also have the same guns in 45 colt and they shoot much better for some reason. As for the 444 I never bought one as I have several 45-70s so why do I need a small bore. I Think I may get a new mold in 44 I was thinking of a 265 gr flat point this might cure my accuracy problems.

[Lloyd Smale]

a closer comparison would be the 444 against the 4570. Ive used all three and on deer sized game they all kill well at under a 100 yards. The 444 will handle heavier bullets and will easily shoot out to 200 plus yards. Ive allways thought it hit like a 4570 with much less recoil. Ive got a marlin outfitter in 444 and it shoots moa at a 100 yards with loads it likes and smacks the **** out of game. Another fun thing to do is shooting varmit with 180 jacketed hollow points out of a 444. Talk about a bomb! I guess i do prefer the 4570 as i have 5 of them and only the one 444 but i wouldnt part with my outfitter for any price.

[26Charlie]

With cast bullets, the .44 Mag gives me 1650-1700 fps with a 250 gr bullet. It takes 22.5 gr of H-110 to do it, pretty much a case full. The .444 Marlin gives me 2050 with a 310 gr. bullet, taking 46 gr. of AA-2460 to do it, once again a case full.
Pretty much a cartridge dumps the energy of its powder load into the bullet, so the .444 is dumping twice as much energy into the bullet as .44 Mag does. What else can I tell you? I haven't shot any animals with either one, and probably it wouldn't make that much difference on deer, but for bear, boar, and elk I would pick the .444.

It should be noted that energy is related directly to bullet weight and to the square of the velocity, so if I increase the bullet weight 24 % as above, I would require a 24% increase in powder charge to keep the same velocity of the bullet. If I double the powder charge with the same bullet, thus doubling the energy, I would get a velocity increase related to the square root of 2 (1.414).

[rhead]

A Winchester trapper in 44mag with a 300 grain boolit at max will make you have to start over your shooting training to get rid of your flinching problem. It will flip a 2 ft square 1/2 inch steel plate hanging target flip clear over in a complete circle. And knock a blacktail deer plumb off his feet at a hundred yards.

Agree. At about 90% of max it starts becoming quite managable. Still plenty for the local white tails or a 300 pound pig.

Anything that the 44 will do the 444 will do it a few dozen yards further away. The gain will not be free with respect to noise, weight and recoil. It is a matter of personal needs and taste.

[6pt-sika]

I've used up to 350 grain cast bullets in the 444 to kill game animals .

In the 44 MAG the biggest I've used has been the Ranch Dog 432-300GC . However I wouldn't have been afraid to use them to 100 yards in a Marlin lever gun .

My own personal take on the situation !

I own ONE 44 MAG rifle and two revolvers .

I also own NINETEEN Marlin rifles chambered for 444 .

No I DO NOT think the 444 is the end all cartridge but I do like shooting cast in them !

I am also an advocate of the 45-70 which I happen to hold in higher regard then the 444 . However the 45-70 with my cast handloads is not quite as pleasent to shoot . But that could be more due to the buttplates on my old 45-70's then anything else .

To me the 444 recoil isn't bad . However all of my rifles have recoil pads , although they are all factory pads I think they do an adequate job .

My own findings with cast in Micro Groove 1-38 barrels has been that I can shoot up to a 375 grain bullet with acceptable accuracy .

In my faster twist Ballard rifled gun I can shoot up to 400 grains easily .

Someone said velocity was a wash . I don't agree with that statement . Especially in the slower twist Micro barrels . Unless you juice them up pretty well they won't stabalize satisfactorily .

[jgt]

That depends on where you live. The 44 mag with cast bullet in a rifle is fine for most game when fed a load it likes. If you live in a place where you have Grizzer bears and such then I would go with the 444. I shoot both. You will be limited to three hundred grain bullet in the 44 because of the 1:38 twist.

The 444 has been used with 400 grain bullets in the 1:20 twist ballard barrels and three fifty grain in 1:38 twist barrels.

The thing a 444 can do that a 44 can't is give you a heavier bullet at a longer range for more foot pounds of energy on target.

I live in Texas and normally the toughest things I have to shoot are feral hogs, but now and then there are the UFO's, black hilocopters, and african game that have escaped. Of course when the SHTF I might need them to shoot lions, tiger, elephants, cape buffalo, and polar bears that escape from the zoo.

[JIMinPHX]

I looked into this a number of years ago. My conclusion at that time was that the .444 would push a .44 slug faster than a .44 mag would, but that because the .444 was designed to use pistol bullets, you would never be able to push the .444 as hard as a .45-70. The availability of .458" bullets with heavier jackets for performance at higher speeds was what gave the .45-70 the advantage over the .444.

That was all before I started casting my own. If I were to look into those calibers today, with cast boolits in mind, I might come to a different conclusion.

[Newtire]

There's an article about the .444 in Handloader's Digest 10th edition that is a pretty good read and lists lots of loads including multiple round ball loads and even shot loads. I used the shot with ball load they had and ended up with a case of sticky cases so wouldn't try that one. It's a fun rifle to shoot even with a 12 grain load of Unique and a Lee 200 gr. flat point. My 12 yr old son (23 now) shot that load all day long with no troubles.

[excavman]

The 444 I had years ago had the 1-38 twist, I kept cast boolits light and slow. Kieth 250 with Unique powder at 1200fps to get accuracy. I now have a long barrel ( 26 " ) 44 Mag rifle that will do that and then some. If I want more I'll break out the Sharps 45-70.

Larry

[44 flattop]

I own ONE 44 MAG rifle and two revolvers .

I also own NINETEEN Marlin rifles chambered for 444 .

No I DO NOT think the 444 is the end all cartridge but I do like shooting cast in them !
A bit of a flipside for me! I own over 20 .44 mag or special revolvers and 5 rifles in .44 mag. But no 444's anymore. I only hunt game up to elk and the .44's have handled that easily for many decades for me. That being said, I've cast for and loaded for at least 3 different 444's of family members, so I've shot thousands of 444 rounds. All of my family members use a 360gr cast at 2050fps and it also does a bangup job on elk.


I am also an advocate of the 45-70 which I happen to hold in higher regard then the 444 . However the 45-70 with my cast handloads is not quite as pleasent to shoot . But that could be more due to the buttplates on my old 45-70's then anything else .

I don't take a side on 444 vs 45-70. But I do love my '86's in 45-70 and 45-90:drinks:

44

[Pirate69]

Thought I would share my 44 Mag results. These are from a Marlin 1895.

I bought a Lee 240 grain "fat" mold from a fellow member that drops bullets at 0.435". I loaded a few unsized to see what kind of results I would get. They turned out to be fairly tight chambering in my rifle and pistol. I had gotten rid of all of them except five rounds. This is how they grouped at 100 yards off of bags/bench. Wished I had five more to complete the 10- round group.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Cast%20boolits%20groups/006-1.jpg

This ten-round, 100-yard group uses the 0.435" boolits sized by a Lee 0.430" sizer.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Cast%20boolits%20groups/007.jpg

This ten-round, 50-yard group uses the 0.435" boolits sized by a Lee 0.430" sizer also.



http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Cast%20boolits%20groups/001-1.jpg

Looks like there may be a potential to gain a little more accuracy with a bigger boolit. May see if I can open the sizer 0.002". Does not look like I am getting any leading at this point. This falls right into the range that NickSS has seen.

[Multigunner]

Well I've only shot the .44 Magnum in handguns, but recognize its great potential as a carbine round.
The comparasion of .44 Mag to .444 is less apples and oranges than oranges to grapefruit. Limiting to cast only the .444 loses much of its advantages while remaining a long cartridge with reduced tube mag capacity compared to the .44 Mag.

Based on the availability of many fine .44 Magnum revolvers I'd go with a Pistol carbine combo of .44 Mag.
The .444 might be available in the single shot handguns, but I never got interested in those.

The .444 has somewhat better potential in long barreled rifles, but a much smaller selection of rifles available in that chambering.

Thats my .02 any way.

[Charley]

Here's my M94 AE in .444. Not currently looking for a better load for it. Three at 100 yards, from a rest, 1x4 scope.

[Pirate69]

I don't think I would be looking for a better load either!!!!!!!

[Suo Gan]

I gotta say I love you guys, every ugly, furry last one of you! I am glad people like yourselves exist in our world.

But just basing what you believe on size and muzzle blast, never got anyone anywhere...uh well maybe it did :)

I know the 444 can hold another inch of powder than a 44 mag case, and I know they can sling a bigger boolit faster and flatter than its little brother. But I guess I wonder if my Little Winchester who can push a 245 grainer downrange starting at close to 2000 fps and do it accurately, would I be much better off pushing a 300 grainer 2400 fps (out of the 444 of course)? Better yes, but would it make that deer deader? And am I going to have to run harder more expensive alloys to do it?

So what would you do? Sell the 44 mag carbine that fits in a horse scabbard or on the truck seat and holds 10 rounds and basically glides like butter through poison oak tangles, and trade up for a 444 that could probably more reliably anchor bigger critters better, but not be as handy. And trade up for 200-400 fps and 55 grns of boolit? Is it that much better to justify?

I know, I know, just keep both right? One in one hand, one in the other

Thanks again for all your comments and pictures! You made my day.

[Suo Gan]

Nice groups guys.

[Dan444]

This is apples and oranges.

My Marlin 444 will push 290gr cast bullets at 2250 fps MV while my 336 & 1894 44 mags will push the same bullet (max loads) at 1650 fps best case.

Comparing the triple-4 to a pistol cartridge (44 mag) is like comparing a 356 Win. to a 357 mag..

Dan

[Suo Gan]

This is apples and oranges.

My Marlin 444 will push 290gr cast bullets at 2250 fps MV while my 336 & 1894 44 mags will push the same bullet (max loads) at 1650 fps best case.

Comparing the triple-4 to a pistol cartridge (44 mag) is like comparing a 356 Win. to a 357 mag..

Dan

I can see that hyperbole does not bother you Dan (I am sure we would get along fine). I mean the way you list hot loads for your 444 and wimpy ones for the 44 mag...but it was done to emphasize a point, so I can forgive you this time :mrgreen:. I can see that you are truly lustful after the 444 being that it is part of your handle and all, I am going to the dictionary now to look up subjective and objective...

[Tony65x55]

The .444 fires a heavier bullet faster. Comparing it to a .44 Magnum is analogous to comparing a .35 Remington to a .35 Whelen. They only thing they have in common is their caliber. The .444 is not a stretched .44 Mag but is based on the .30-06 case. If a .44 Mag fills your requirements for a rifle cartridge, that's wonderful. But to compare it to the big Marlin is to demean a very good cartridge that is unrecognized for its qualities. Think of it as a modern day .405 Winchester (300 gr at 2200 fps.)

[Suo Gan]

The 44 mag is a serious caliber that can be run up to 1950 fps using a 245 grain boolit in a rifle. That makes it a serious caliber in my book. But there is no way in heck it is an equal to the 444 Marlin. I should have titled this thread, "What Can the 444 Marlin do that a 44 mag Can't?" And for the record I don't run them hot except for hunting and setting sights for hunting boolits, they hurt too much!

[dualsport]

I have a single shot .444 with Ballard type rifling, I was thinking of trying some black powder in it, easy enough to clean up, maybe some heavy soft lead boolits? Anyway, I agree with the guys who point out it's all about what you want to do with it. My hunting buddies have a saying, "Dead's dead."

[Lloyd Smale]

heres an article my best friend wrote a few years back on the 444. Some good load info in it. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/anderson/444Outfitter.htm

[Tony65x55]

The 44 mag is a serious caliber that can be run up to 1950 fps using a 245 grain boolit in a rifle. That makes it a serious caliber in my book. But there is no way in heck it is an equal to the 444 Marlin. I should have titled this thread, "What Can the 444 Marlin do that a 44 mag Can't?" And for the record I don't run them hot except for hunting and setting sights for hunting boolits, they hurt too much!

I understand, thanks for the clarification. The .44 Mag is a wonderful cartridge and many big, sometimes nasty, critters have fallen to it. Without question. What the .444 does is provide those same excellent killing abilities for another 50-100 yards and/or provide an extra margin of power for killing big and/or tough animals.

For example, the warm load you list above has a Taylor Knock Out value of 29 (2068 ft/lbs energy.) A 300 grain bullet at 2200 fps from a .444 has a TKO of 40 (3223 ft/lbs energy), a considerable increase.

Using another recognized scale, the Thornily rating for the .44 Mag load is 130, making it suitable for Elk, Moose, Kudu, Zebra, Large African Safari Plains Game. The .444 load has a rating of 179, making it suitable the above, as well as Lion, Leopard, Grizzly Bear, Brown Bear. If we add the 350 gr load, at 2000 fps, the Thornily rating goes to 190.

Does it recoil? You bet. Does it hammer big critters? You bet.

That's what the .444 does that the .44 mag doesn't. You can always load a .444 down to .44 mag levels and shoot pistol bullets, but you can't load a .44 Mag up to .444 levels and use rifle bullets. You get all this power in a light, easy to carry, fast handling Marlin lever gun weighing 7 1/2 lbs with scope. My .444XLR has had it's barrel bobbed to 20", wears a Williams aperture sight and weighs 7 lbs on the money. Like most .444's, it is superbly accurate.

If you don't require this level of power, so be it. A deer hunter can live a long life and never require more power than a .44 Mag is capable of producing, or a .30-30, or a .243. But if you live where I live, where a wounded 1,000 lb moose can put three miles of two foot deep ice water and muskeg between you and your winter meat in short order, where black bears routinely run into the 500+lb class, the extra anchoring power of the big Marlin is well worth the recoil.

I hope this explains it.

[NHlever]

I think the slant of the original question is more about what can be accomplished in the field with these cartridges than what they will "do" speed wise, or boolit weight wise. I've had both, and only have a .44 mag now. My thought is that it will do anything in the field that most short / medium range big bore guns will do in my area of the country. We do have moose hunting here by permit now, so that thought might change, but I doubt there is a moose that won't fall at the ranges we see here in the woods with either my .308, or 45-70. For the average deer / boar hunter a .44 with traditional weight boolits will shoot right through, and that will do anything that can be done with a similar boolit design, and diameter. I've tried the heavier boolits, but tend to like the somewhat flatter trajectory, lower recoil, and greater stability of the standard 240- 260 grain boolits. In jacketed bullets, I do, however, like the Hornady 265, and Speer 270 grain bullets, partly because their construction is better suited to the rifles I use. The .444 is a great caliber with those same bullets, of course, I just don't see the need for the larger gun, and ammo for most uses in this area.

[S.R.Custom]

What can a 444 Marlin do that a 44 mag cannot with cast (in a rifle)?



Simply put-- 405 grain boolits at 1775 fps...

.

[frankenfab]

Supermag,

Well said. What mold is that?

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab26/444slayer/GUNZ/444.jpg

[Suo Gan]

I'll start the bidding for the four gun lot at $500. Is there any brass included in the deal? What model number is the one on top? Is that the mx? I bet that BFR sure does raise up when you fire that 405 grn monster...

[6pt-sika]

I'll start the bidding for the four gun lot at $500. Is there any brass included in the deal?


I doubt seriousely if Frankenfab would take $500 for any ONE of them much less all four !

And nowhere did I see him say that he wished to sell them !

So I don't really see the reasoning behind your post .

[6pt-sika]

[QUOTE=frankenfab;897064]Supermag,

Well said. What mold is that?

QUOTE]

I'd be intrested in one of those molds as well !

[frankenfab]

"What model number is the one on top?"

It's a 444SS, which has conventional rifling, as do all the other guns. The BFR is a pussycat, really. Now the Lone Eagle was almost unbearable till I put the brake on it.

I don't have a 405 gr. mold, but SuperMag's boolet sure looks nice. I know 6pt-Sika has come up with a couple nice 375 & 400 gr. designs. My favorite load is a 300 Speer soft point over 48gr. H322. The only boolet I have is a 300 gr. WFN.

"So I don't really see the reasoning behind your post ."---All in fun I'm sure, but of course those baby's are some of my most prized (not for sale!), and 2 are no longer made.

I think 44 Mags are great, by the way, but........

[Suo Gan]

I doubt seriousely if Frankenfab would take $500 for any ONE of them much less all four !

And nowhere did I see him say that he wished to sell them !

So I don't really see the reasoning behind your post .

It was a JOKE! IT WAS A JOKE! The reasoning behind it was humor. How can you not get that?

[gon2shoot]

I dont have a 444, I do have an excelent Browning 92 44mag, I (generally) run a 250gr boolit at roughly 1650fps. If that aint enough I get a real gun, the 45 colt :kidding: or step up to the 45-70 with 405 gr at 1500fps. I really dont feel under-gunned with the 44, but some game/conditions necessitate a little more thump, I'm thinking thats the answer to your question "conditions".

[dualsport]

Tough room.

[Leadforbrains]

I have a 1894 Marlin .44 magnum and a .444 Marlin P Outfitter.
I love the both of them.
Please don't make me choose
:veryconfu

[bearcove]

It was a JOKE! IT WAS A JOKE! The reasoning behind it was humor. How can you not get that?

Some things never change.:coffeecom

[Dan444]

I can see that hyperbole does not bother you Dan (I am sure we would get along fine). I mean the way you list hot loads for your 444 and wimpy ones for the 44 mag...but it was done to emphasize a point, so I can forgive you this time :mrgreen:. I can see that you are truly lustful after the 444 being that it is part of your handle and all, I am going to the dictionary now to look up subjective and objective...

I'm not demeaning the 44 mags; I really like my Marlin 336-44 and 1894-44. My 44 mag loads with a 290gr HC going at 1650 fps MV are not "wimpy ones", at least in my rifles.

Dan

[EOD3]

Simply put-- 405 grain boolits at 1775 fps...

.

I must have missed the news story. When did they open a season on Woolly Mammoth? :shock:

I guess I shouldn't talk, I shoot a couple 45/70 with 300 to 500 boolets...

[S.R.Custom]

I must have missed the news story. When did they open a season on Woolly Mammoth? :shock:

The whole purpose of the .444 when it was conceived was to create a compact, (relatively) high pressure version of the 45/70. Only problem was, when the rubber finally met the road, no one on the ammunition end would step up to the rubber. So we ended up with 265 gr flat points... :-?

So true to the gun's original purpose, I hatched a 405 gr boolit --courtesy of Mountain Moulds-- and parked it over a lump of AA2230. This particular boolit was dimensioned to perfectly fit the throat on my Winnie Big Bore. (And speaking of the Winnie, it has a twist of 1:20, so you can forget about boolits like this in the 1:38 Marlins.)

But yeah, the recoil does tend to spin you around a bit. I mean, what would you expect a stoutly loaded, 6.5 lb. 45/70 to do? :D

[NHlever]

I know that some of you won't believe this, but ways have been found to flatten trajectory that seem to work better than pushing big, fat boolits faster! :D :D :D It's true! Really! I'll play the devil's advocate here, and note that the .444 is heavier in the same configuration than a 45-70, and neither is a really flat shooting caliber...... honest. Layne Simpson did shoot a caribou at something like 265 yards with his .444 but that wouldn't be a stretch for a .308 either. I really like larger bores, and have .44's, 45's, 45-70's, etc. and have owned a nice Win .444 ( wish I hadn't sold that one now), but big bores kill by boolit shape, and weight. Velocity has little to do with it except for making range estimation slightly easier at over 100 yards. If you look carefully at the trajectory difference between retnia detaching loads with a 300 gr over the starting loads, you will see what I mean over average hunting distances. I haven't really looked, but I doubt that a 300 gr. boolit out of a .444 shoots much flatter than a 240 gr. out of a .44 mag and since both will shoot through anything I have shot so far, the difference is lost in the air beyond the target.

[helice]

SauGan,

I have a couple of 44 rifles and a 444 in the Winchester Big Bore. I'm sad to say that my 444 is the newer model which Winchester "IMPROVED:razz:" to the 1 in 38" twist configuration... I like each rifle but I like the 444 for its versitility. I have 444 loads with a 170 grain LBT-OWC that gets 900 ft/sec. Sort of like a 44 Special. The kids aren't scared by that one. 13 gr Red Dot under 280 LBT-LFN gets 1400'/s ie. 44 Mag pistol velocities. With 300 grain RCBS SWC I can duplicate and the greatly excede the 44 Mag rifle loads. Yes the gun can get brutal with heavy cast at higher velocity but I don't practice with them.

Am I wedded to the 444? No.
Will I ever need that excess it gives over the 44 Mag? Probably not.
Why did I buy it? I had all these 44 caliber moulds and I like big bores.
Would I sell it? Sure as long as I can keep the B-92 in 44Mag and the Rossi in 45Colt.
What can I say --- I like big rifles.:bigsmyl2:

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'm sure that the 44 with a stout loading and a heavy boolit would do the trick on our Elk sized Sambar deer. However, the case is too short to be legal for them. But then again, why take marginal when you can take more than adequate? A solid load in the 444 sure does shiver me timbers though!

[Blammer]

I haven't really looked, but I doubt that a 300 gr. boolit out of a .444 shoots much flatter than a 240 gr. out of a .44 mag and since both will shoot through anything I have shot so far, the difference is lost in the air beyond the target.

Unless you're lining up two deer with one shot. :drinks:

[wiljen]

the 444 would be more useful with a faster twist so it would stabilize something beyond 300gr. Most wont and thus lose utility.

[EOD3]

Unless you're lining up two deer with one shot. :drinks:

End to end!

[Four Fingers of Death]

the 444 would be more useful with a faster twist so it would stabilize something beyond 300gr. Most wont and thus lose utility.

That's why I went for a later one. I'll be working out loads for it as soon as my right wing is healed up.

[wiljen]

That's why I went for a later one. I'll be working out loads for it as soon as my right wing is healed up.

Somebody did some tests years ago where they put a 1:16 twist on a DeHaas (may have been DeHaas for that matter) and played with 450gr+ bullets out of the 444. I came away wishing they'd make a 444 with a lot faster twist as the one I had with the micro-groove **** wouldnt stabilize anything over 265gr and was iffy with those.

Good to know they finally wised up and went to a twist that would do more. Now if they'd do the same for the .41 Mag.

[Dixie Slugs]

Well, All this is very interesting, although this has been kicked around for some time indeed!
Now....I know I am older than dirt and in years past killed plenty of deer and hogs even with the so-called out-dated Win 44-40.
My walking gun is a Marlin 1894P and my 265 gr. Truncated cast bullet. I have seen and shot some 444, but really have not needed the extra weight, recoil, etc....but that is just me!
In my opinion, there is no arguement between the two guns....just pick the one that suits your hunting situation!
The trend seems to be for extra heavy ullets in both guns, but does that trend really relate to average hunting situations?....I think not, after all how dead is dead!
The 44's are light, fast, brush guns and are great when used as they were designed. Under most actaul hunting situations, any 44 Mag will put five shots in the boiler room of deer and hogs.
The 444's have a place where the larger gun may be needed for larger game. However, if I need more power (or range), I just pull out one of my 06's
I think the basic problem here, between the 44 mag and 444, is trying to make either one an all-around-gun rather than understanding that they both sercve ceratin needs.
It looks like the situation of buying a car that will run 120 mph and then using it at 65 mph?
Of course I understand a 75 year old doesn't know jack about hunting today....really?....James

[Four Fingers of Death]

In reality, there's not much game around that a 240Gn boolit out of either the 44Mag or the 444 won't handle. That is, apart from dangerous game and if I'm hunting dangerous game, much as I love my leverguns and cast boolits, it will be with a good bolt gun or a No1 with premium bullets. I ain't about to try and re-invent the wheel in an area that has been thoroughly thrashed out over 100 years and more.

[pmeisel]

Y'all got me real curious now. Anybody know offhand what the twist is in the 444 Handi-Rifle and how big a bullet it might handle? I finally have the wife warmed up to another rifle....

[6pt-sika]

Y'all got me real curious now. Anybody know offhand what the twist is in the 444 Handi-Rifle and how big a bullet it might handle? I finally have the wife warmed up to another rifle....

The Handi Rifle I don't know however , the slower twist Micro Groove Marlin's will handle 375 grain bullets and the present fast twist Marlin's will handle 400 grainers as well !

And how do I know this you ask ?

Becuase I've done it pure and simple [smilie=s:

[GLL]

The new 444 Handi-Rifle twist is 1:20".

Jerry

[pmeisel]

Thanks, that should stabilize anything I would shoot....

[dualsport]

1/20". Can't say about the weight thing yet, I just got it, but ought to handle up to 400 gr. I think. Since 99.99% of my shooting this .444 will be targets, either paper or whatever, and not game, I'm going to experiment more with the lighter end of the spectrum, try a few 250 gr types. Might try a duplex load just for fun, it sure looks like an old bp cartridge. I also have high hopes for the Lee 310 gr. all purpose boolit.

[gerrycan]

Hey,
I have an older444 m and haven,t had the best accuracy with 260 grs swc[lee] and will try 310 lee myself today over 12grs. Trailboss[GC VS. NOGC].I wonder what my barrel twist is ?Gerry [sorry for hyjack]

[pmeisel]

Convinced my wife to come to the gun & pawn and write a check for an H&R in 444 Marlin this afternoon, with a 3x9 on top of it. Congratulations to me. I must be doing something right.

[dualsport]

I've read the older Marlins are 1/38". I'm not sure about this, but I think the popular thinking is push them faster when using a heavy(long) for twist boolit. Maybe try some heat under that 310 gr. if the TB doesn't do it for ya. I've read H322 is the berries in a .444, but I'm just repeating what I've read. There's some real good reading here about the .444. I.m new to this caliber myself, still just learning.

[6pt-sika]

I've read the older Marlins are 1/38". I'm not sure about this, but I think the popular thinking is push them faster when using a heavy(long) for twist boolit. Maybe try some heat under that 310 gr. if the TB doesn't do it for ya. I've read H322 is the berries in a .444, but I'm just repeating what I've read. There's some real good reading here about the .444. I.m new to this caliber myself, still just learning.

Okay here's the deal !

Bullets weighing up to 315 grains have worked well in my slower twist Marlin 444's made from air cooled WW's and pushed at medium levels .

For ANYTHING over 315 grains up to 375 grains need to be water quenched if WW"s and pushed HARD with H322 or something similar .

For the 400 grain bulets in the fast twist ballard barrels , I can use aircooled WW's and push hard . However I've just been water quenching them all lately !

And yes the Micro barrels are 1-38 .

[dualsport]

Thanks 6pt. I'm writing that info down and putting it in my loading book. Good nuts and bolts type stuff. pmeisel, you can take that bit to the bank, if 6pt doesn't know the .444 no one does. He's almost a fanatic .444 shooter/collector.

[pmeisel]

I am doing some studying today. I am leaning towards three loads:


Something light (180g-225g) and relatively slow, for paper punching and plinking
Mid-range, maybe 265g or so for hunting deer
A heavy bullet load (300g or so) for hogs and thick stuff.


Fortunately I have a lot of time yet!

[6pt-sika]

I am doing some studying today. I am leaning towards three loads:


Something light (180g-225g) and relatively slow, for paper punching and plinking
Mid-range, maybe 265g or so for hunting deer
A heavy bullet load (300g or so) for hogs and thick stuff.


Fortunately I have a lot of time yet!

While I don't disagree I don't normally load any of my bullets at what would be called plinking levels .

All bullets from 207 to 400 grains get loaded at what I consider hunting levels .

When I first started with the 444 cast bullet thing I was using only XMP5744 with air cooled bullets and it was working well on paper an deer with bullets up to about 315 grains . It wasn't until I got the NEi 429-330GC and the Lyman 429649 that I discovered I needed to do something else in the slow twist Micro barrels and I switched almost entirely to H322 and started water quenching . Now I also use some Varget and RL-7 in the 400 grainers . Also recently started using H4198 with the Lyman 429650 .

Now then for what I use a 444 for I could easily kill EVERYTHING with the Ranch Dog 432-265GC or even the Saeco 250 grain GC bullet . However I like to try and mess with them all . So I've worked my way up to 400 grains in the ballard guns and 375 grains in the Micro Groove guns .

I have three molds that are on the light side . The castboolits Group buy 434-207GC , Lyman 429215 and the RCBS 44-225GC . It is my thinking that all three of these bullets will be okay deer bullets in the normal situations I hunt . And over the next year or so I plan on testing this out !
So to me the light bullets that you refer to as paper bullets or plinkers are in all actuality decent deer bullets in their own right ! However in my loads they will be far from slow ;-)

[6pt-sika]

Thanks 6pt. I'm writing that info down and putting it in my loading book. Good nuts and bolts type stuff. pmeisel, you can take that bit to the bank, if 6pt doesn't know the .444 no one does. He's almost a fanatic .444 shooter/collector.

If you look on the thread in this forum I started about First and Second Model 444's you can get a good bit of the loading data I've gotten with variouse bullets in slow twist Micro Groove 444 barrels .

IF you find any of it a help I'm glad !