380 ACP questions

[Bob.]

Got a used LCP.
Never thought I would own a 380 but it's so easy to forget you have it on ya, I kinda like having it in pocket.
I'm gonna have to reload to shoot it there isn't much choice for ammo around here.
I also want to cast for it, I was looking at the Lee 102 gn and the RCBS 90 gn moulds. Don't have any experience with a Lee 2 cavity moulds or the RCBS?
Just wondering what the thoughts were on the best boolet weight and shape for the LCP?
One other question has anyone used the Lee 380 dies on the LNL AP?
I have used a couple different Lee's on the LNL and they work, I was just wondering if the 380 dies might be to short?

Thanks!

Bob

[JIMinPHX]

The Lee 102 is what I load in most of my .380 ammo. It's been fired in everything from a PPK to KelTec. I never had any trouble with it. The Lee 105 gr swc is a good choice in some guns too, but doesn't feed in all of them.

[jdgabbard]

Personally my .380 likes the Lyman 90g 358242, not the 120g version, over a small dose of Bullseye. I think RCBS is a pretty close copy, and for all practical purposes is probably a substitute... But I do have a few of the Lee 105g SWCs that I've been meaning to try, and once I get my hands on some more brass I'll probably give them a go.

[Bob.]

Thanks Jim

Bob

[Bob.]

Thanks JD

Bob

[smithgar3840]

My LCP likes the Lee 105 SWC. It didn't have much choice that was the lightest mold I had on hand. Very accurate too as much as the sights or lack thereof allow.

[Fly]

I just casted my first .380 boolit's from a Lee 102 yesterday.Best group that gun ever shot.

[Bob.]

Thanks for the replies!
How are you guys sizing them ?
The barrel slugged out about 356, measured the best I could with just calipers.

Bob

[Fly]

Calipers will only get you close.But my boolit's were .356 so I did not size them.I really need to slug my barrel, but
have not yet.But .380s are a blast to pore.

[Bob.]

I would be lubing them on a star and will have to get a die.

Bob

[Fly]

Bob I just tumbled mine in alox & not a trace of lead.

[Fire_stick]

I use the Lee 356-102-1R. It cast bullets that weigh about 106 grains. My Bersa Thunder CC slugged at .358" groove and .351" bore.

Cant remember the out of mold diameter, but I leave them be, dip the lower half in liquid alox, dry and load. The only charge I have tried so far is 3.0 gr. of Universal Clays. Average vel. is 692 fps. At 25' I can keep the 4 or 5 inch plate spinning. Fun load!

[mtgrs737]

I have the LCP also, I cast some Lee round nose boolits that Dragonrider lent me the mould for. They run right at 100 grs. in ww alloy and I size them .357" and lube with Lar's BAC and have had no leading. Loaded rounds drop into the chamber with no extra effort. I load mine with 2.7grs. of Bulleye as it is a pleasant loading. I have tried 2.5 grs. of BE but felt that it was a little light but it did function just fine. I also tried 3.0 grs. of BE but it was a little stiffer load than I wanted for a practice load it shot more like a factory load. Good luck!

[sabot_round]

I too use the Lee 102 gr rn and I tumble lube my bullets with Lee liquid alox. I seat them behind 2.2gr of AA#5 and shoot them through my Bersa and LCP without leading issues. I hope this helps.

[EMC45]

Bout to load some of the Lee 102s in my Constable......

[rond]

Lee 102 and Titegroup work great.

[putteral]

105 SWC here using 3.8grs of Power Pistol. My PPK/S loves them. Never a drop of leading sized to .356

[JIMinPHX]

General wisdom here on the board seems to be to size anywhere between measured groove diameter & .002" over, depending on who you listen too. In most cases, I go .001" over groove diameter. The only time that has gotten me onto trouble was in a brand new gun that had a sharp edge on the chamber throat. It would shave about a .001" ring off the boolit every time that I fired a round. After 6 or 8 rounds, I had enough lead rings built up in the chamber to cause a failure to go into battery. I reduced my boolit diameter to be even with the groove diameter & that problem went away. After about 2,000 rounds & 20 cleanings, I can now go back & use the larger boolits without any problems.

[Fly-guy]

Got a used LCP.
Never thought I would own a 380 but it's so easy to forget you have it on ya, I kinda like having it in pocket.
I'm gonna have to reload to shoot it there isn't much choice for ammo around here.
I also want to cast for it, I was looking at the Lee 102 gn and the RCBS 90 gn moulds. Don't have any experience with a Lee 2 cavity moulds or the RCBS?
Just wondering what the thoughts were on the best boolet weight and shape for the LCP?
One other question has anyone used the Lee 380 dies on the LNL AP?
I have used a couple different Lee's on the LNL and they work, I was just wondering if the 380 dies might be to short?

Thanks!

Bob

I have a LCP that I'm enjoy shooting, but then I enjoying shooting just about anything. The open sights are pathetic so I ordered a Crimson Trace laser sight from "shooters-resource.com" for $159. All other dealers were about $20 higher.

If you plan on loading for it, go to "grafs.com". They carry Starline 380 brass @ $15 per 100, Prvi 115 gr jhp boolits @ $11 per 100 or 95 gr rn cast Mo Bullets @ $33 per 250. If you cast, they have Lee 6 cavity blox and handles for about $50.

I've been casting the "TL 356 124gr rn sized to .355 and then loading 1.7 gr of Bullseye with good accuracy. I am using a Lee push through bullet sizer and then using the recipe that Recluse posted a while back for a booliet lube. YEA Recluse!

I've tried several different powders and have decent results with all of them. I wish my 9mm liked as many different powders as the 380 does!

I hope you enjoy shooting your LCP as much as I do mine.

[Bob.]

Thanks for the info FG!

Bob

[Dframe]

My 380's prefer the 90-100 grain cast bullets over a charge of Bullseye, HP-38, or 231, and loaded as short as reasonable. I've tried slower powders and longer lengths but always ended up with jamming problems.

[jdgabbard]

I have a LCP that I'm enjoy shooting, but then I enjoying shooting just about anything. The open sights are pathetic so I ordered a Crimson Trace laser sight from "shooters-resource.com" for $159. All other dealers were about $20 higher.

If you plan on loading for it, go to "grafs.com". They carry Starline 380 brass @ $15 per 100, Prvi 115 gr jhp boolits @ $11 per 100 or 95 gr rn cast Mo Bullets @ $33 per 250. If you cast, they have Lee 6 cavity blox and handles for about $50.

I've been casting the "TL 356 124gr rn sized to .355 and then loading 1.7 gr of Bullseye with good accuracy. I am using a Lee push through bullet sizer and then using the recipe that Recluse posted a while back for a booliet lube. YEA Recluse!

I've tried several different powders and have decent results with all of them. I wish my 9mm liked as many different powders as the 380 does!

I hope you enjoy shooting your LCP as much as I do mine.

What pistol are you loading the 124g TL in??? I believe thats over MAX COL... I know they wont fit in any .380 I've ever seen...

[XWrench3]

i am running the lee 105 swc (38 special) mold boolits (mine come out weighing 108 grains) through my lcp and kel-tec 380's. you have to shorten up the oal a little bit however, or the edge of the bullet jams into the rifling, which of course, jams the gun. i size them down using a lee .356 die, they work quite well for me. i had to buy a 6 hole mold. making 2 of those little boolits at a time is just rediculous. if the lee 380 mold had been available in a 6 holer, i would have bought that.

[Fly-guy]

What pistol are you loading the 124g TL in??? I believe thats over MAX COL... I know they wont fit in any .380 I've ever seen...

I'm shooting a LCP. The Lyman 3rd edition list a Lyman 358242 121 gr rn bullet starting at 1.6 gr of bullseye at 600' and a maximum charge of 2.1 gr at 750'. The Lee bullet I'm shooting is a 124gr rn loaded at 1.7 gr. I tried Lee's 120 TL TC bullet and could tell a difference in recoil and I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND [/U][/B]trying them. The 121 gr TC had to be seated a little deeper because of the magazine which I think resulted in a little hotter load.

[DJ303]

I use the Lee 2 cav 102gr mold in my TCP. 2.8 gr HP-38. Had to run OAL a little short to function properly. Keeps all shots on a paper plate@ 20'.

[lwknight]

The best advise for all .380 owners is to do diligant research regarding it effectiveness as a sefl defense fight stopper.
When the muscle bound parolee breaks into your house intending to neutralize you and have his way with your wife , do you really want a gun that shoots bullets that will only infuriate the threat?

[DanWalker]

The best advise for all .380 owners is to do diligant research regarding it effectiveness as a sefl defense fight stopper.
When the muscle bound parolee breaks into your house intending to neutralize you and have his way with your wife , do you really want a gun that shoots bullets that will only infuriate the threat?
NO. I have an 870 loaded with 7 rounds of #6 shot for that.
The Bersa 380 I carry EVERY day EVERYWHERE is a more than adequate fight stopper. I don't know anyone who will only be "Infuriated" if I put it under his chin or against his belly button and pull the trigger a couple times. Contrary to what Mossad ABOOB and all the other mall ninjas like to write about. Most lethal encounters take place at contact distance. I never understood all the hoopla about "One Shot Stopping Power". I was always taught to keep shooting until the threat ceased.
I'm not against bigger handguns. I carried a 1911 for years, and wore a M9 beretta as a duty sidearm. I just got tired of lugging all that steel around. Plus, it's awful hard to conceal a full size 1911 when you're only wearing jeans and a T shirt.
My advice for people serious about self defense is to quit worrying about 25 yard groups, and start practicing getting your weapon deployed QUICKLY. 7 yards and closer is where you need to be spending the bulk of your time. Extending your arms out in a classic isoceles stance is a great way to get your gun taken away or knocked offline from the target. Hipshooting, or point shooting is HIGHLY effective if you'll put the time into developing the skill. Keeping the gun close to your body makes a gun grab MUCH more difficult. Granted, it's not as sexy as when the IPSC guys run through a kill house, or clang and bang a bunch of steel plates at high speed,but they're just playing a game. You're trying to develop skills that someday may save your life.
Just remember gunfighting rule #1 HAVE A GUN.

[jdgabbard]

I'm shooting a LCP. The Lyman 3rd edition list a Lyman 358242 121 gr rn bullet starting at 1.6 gr of bullseye at 600' and a maximum charge of 2.1 gr at 750'. The Lee bullet I'm shooting is a 124gr rn loaded at 1.7 gr. I tried Lee's 120 TL TC bullet and could tell a difference in recoil and I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND [/U][/B]trying them. The 121 gr TC had to be seated a little deeper because of the magazine which I think resulted in a little hotter load.

Fly-guy, I wasn't talking about the weight. I use that same boolit in my .380 all the time. I'm talking about you saying you use the Lee TL-124-2R. I have personally seated that boolit before as a dummy round, and it measured OVER Max COL, and wouldn't fit into the magazine of my weapon.

[Dframe]

Excellent point about the "Mall Ninjas". While larger calibres are probably more effective generally they are certainly not perfect. The ideal of a one shot stop is mostly a fantacy, and rarely happens regardless of calibre. A far more relavant factor than calibre is shot placement. And NO most bad guys don't just get angry if hit center mass by a 380. Mostly they get seriously wounded.

[Doby45]

Shoot better yet, I carry a Kel-Tec 32 with me everywhere, everyday of the week. Regardless of my dress. I carry it just as well in shorts and a tee-shirt as I do jeans and a hoodie. Not to say I do not carry "other" hand guns, but even when I carry another handgun I still have my 32 as a BUG. I carried it as a BUG everyday as a LEO as well.

[Fly-guy]

Fly-guy, I wasn't talking about the weight. I use that same boolit in my .380 all the time. I'm talking about you saying you use the Lee TL-124-2R. I have personally seated that boolit before as a dummy round, and it measured OVER Max COL, and wouldn't fit into the magazine of my weapon.

The OAL on the 124 gr r n is 1.90 and feeds through my LCP just fine. What kind of OAL are you using?

[JIMinPHX]

The best advise for all .380 owners is to do diligant research regarding it effectiveness as a sefl defense fight stopper.
When the muscle bound parolee breaks into your house intending to neutralize you and have his way with your wife , do you really want a gun that shoots bullets that will only infuriate the threat?

I will agree that larger calibers are generally more effective. I will go further & say that if I was going to choose a handgun to keep in the house for defensive purposes, I would probably choose a larger caliber.

That having been said, the LCP is one of those micro sized guns that is small enough to be carried just about everywhere that you might choose to go. The .380 cal LCP in your pocket is a whole lot more effective than the .45acp that you left at home.

I have always regarded the .380 as a second choice defensive caliber. I have generally been of the opinion that if you want to use a .380 as a defensive gun, then you should plan on pulling the trigger more than once when trouble presents itself.

That having been said, I know of very few people who would still be attacking, or even standing if you unloaded 6 rounds of .380 ammo into their torso. If they were still coming after me by the time I took shot #4, I would then switch to head shots. I don't know of anyone who would survive that.

[dualsport]

NO. I have an 870 loaded with 7 rounds of #6 shot for that.
The Bersa 380 I carry EVERY day EVERYWHERE is a more than adequate fight stopper. I don't know anyone who will only be "Infuriated" if I put it under his chin or against his belly button and pull the trigger a couple times. Contrary to what Mossad ABOOB and all the other mall ninjas like to write about. Most lethal encounters take place at contact distance. I never understood all the hoopla about "One Shot Stopping Power". I was always taught to keep shooting until the threat ceased.
I'm not against bigger handguns. I carried a 1911 for years, and wore a M9 beretta as a duty sidearm. I just got tired of lugging all that steel around. Plus, it's awful hard to conceal a full size 1911 when you're only wearing jeans and a T shirt.
My advice for people serious about self defense is to quit worrying about 25 yard groups, and start practicing getting your weapon deployed QUICKLY. 7 yards and closer is where you need to be spending the bulk of your time. Extending your arms out in a classic isoceles stance is a great way to get your gun taken away or knocked offline from the target. Hipshooting, or point shooting is HIGHLY effective if you'll put the time into developing the skill. Keeping the gun close to your body makes a gun grab MUCH more difficult. Granted, it's not as sexy as when the IPSC guys run through a kill house, or clang and bang a bunch of steel plates at high speed,but they're just playing a game. You're trying to develop skills that someday may save your life.
Just remember gunfighting rule #1 HAVE A GUN.

My sentiments exactly. I'm sure many of you have trained professionally, I remember being most impressed with the '21 ft.' rule. A bad guy within that distance can charge you and stick you before most people can draw their weapon. I used to have my son be the bad guy, me the armed hero. (toy weapons of course), he'd get to me before I'd have my 'gun' out everytime. Yes, I still said bang on my way down, by golly he's going out with me! But the Very Close range practice is the ticket in my book. That said, I always say"It's not all combat". I shoot a lot of cast bullets just for fun, might try the .380 at 100 yds. someday.

[Fly]

All I have to say on the subject at hand here is this.There is not one of you on this
thread, I could not shoot dead with my .380.Geeezzzzzzzzzz

Fly

[dualsport]

You have a special way of making your point Fly.

[lwknight]

A guy that I work with has 2 380 slugs in his shoulder.
He killed the guy that put them there.

I have no idea why he never got them removed.
I guess that it don't bother him.

A 22 short would stop me. Crack heads are not like normal people.
Sure they will die the same as anyone else but, how fast. Maybe not before getting their disease infected blood all over you while attaching with your 380 slugs in their belly.

[Doby45]

Crackheads die just like everyone else when you hit them in the head. You can play the woulda, coulda, shoulda game all day long. In my time as a LEO I have seen people shot with any number of different weapons and calibers and there is NO magical caliber or weapon. Each and every single situation and circumstance is different. The one statement that holds the most truth in this tread is what JIMinPHX said


The .380 cal LCP in your pocket is a whole lot more effective than the .45acp that you left at home.

This one statement should be the battle cry of every armed citizen. Carry whatever you will "CARRY". I am pretty sure that a 454 Casull will stop a fight pretty quick, but I am not carrying one everyday. If you are a man's man and decide you are gonna drag that hog leg around with you everyday, good for you. But, I would rather be armed with a 22 Derringer that I carry at every moment on my person than nothing at all.

This is a very personal choice and there is no right or wrong. Just be proficient with what you carry and by all means, CARRY SOMETHING.

[GabbyM]

IMHO you do not want a hollow point in light pistols.
My theory on pistols of any moderate power up to and including a 45 acp is to use non expanding bullets. I always want enough penetration to bust through a mans pelvis. Can't recall the name of that bone but the way I was taught to do it was to not let the attacker see your gun before you shoot. Seeing a gun gives him a shot of adrenalin making things much more difficult. Bring the pistol out of your pocket , swing up the leg on your left side , when you get to the hip pull off two shots. Second will recoil up and right to be a gut shot. Bring pistol to bear on the chest then fire two more. Then one in the head. If you had a six shooter you have one bullet left to check for a second attacker. With an auto holding more shots the routine is two shots in the head for a six shot total. Your attacker will be down at that point. Some of you may find fault with that tactic but it's the way it was taught to US Army teams in Vietnam. The 45's petty much sailed right through those little people. A 380 auto is a bit light to count on busting a hip bone but if you keep after it they'll go down.


for a practise laod I've been using 2.6 to 2.8 grains of WW231 under the 100 gr cast. Used to use Bulseye and think I may have liked it better for less felt recoil but never compared them side to side. Littel Kel Tec 380 makes the web of your hand sore but has no pinch points. Thing is just so light it has to snap back pretty hard as result of laws of physics. Shoots nice tight groups in spite of what I'd of thought. They are what they are. I just tossd my wallet on the scale and it weighed .300 pounds. = 4.8 OZ. Empty Kel Tec P-3AT = 8.3 oz loaded mag is 2.8 oz.

[jdgabbard]

The OAL on the 124 gr r n is 1.90 and feeds through my LCP just fine. What kind of OAL are you using?

Well, the data "I" have shows MAX OAL at .984 for the .380acp. However, the 358242 loading shows a OAL of .980". I have my notes out for loading a few dummy rounds with the Lee 124g-2R TL and it seated out to the end of the first driving band (the deepest it can be seated) measures at 1.038, .054 over MAX OAL. And in MY Bersa, a buddy's PPK, and a Colt Mustang I've tried loading the dummies in the mags, it was too long. You could get ONE in the mag, but when you would try to get the second in the first would hit the front of the magazine....

Maybe the ruger has a longer OAL it can work with, but it is OVER the MAX OAL listed in my Lyman, Hodgdon, Hornady, and Speer manuals....

[XWrench3]

i am running the lee 6 cavity 105g (38 spl) boolit in both my lcp and kel tec. i size it down town to .356". i use a little dandy powder measure to load my pistol rounds with. i am using either the 00 rotor, which is a nice easy shooting target practice round, with either aa#2 or bullseye. if you want something a little more like standard loads, the 0 rotor works as well. the #1 rotor is to hot. fyi, my boolits drop out @ 108g with l.l.a. lube. for this boolit, at least out of my mold, useing the winchester or remington case works better. most of the others start tapering sooner, and i have trouble seating the boolit to 0.960 oal, which is what both of my guns like.

[azrednek]

I don't normally carry a 380 for self defence but I want to put a load together for practice, any suggestions on a reliable combination, mold and powder charge?? I'll be loading for a Mauser HSC and a friend's Bersa and Sterling. If and when I do carry a 380 I have it loaded with Buffalo Bore brand +P HP's.

JiminPhx, I'm going to try those Lee 105's you gave me in the 380's. THX!! With temps hitting 109 today think I'll try them in an indoor range!!

[jonblack]

I have heard about, seen, and read about the Buffalo Bore brand bullets for .380 ACP. They advertise them as +P, but there is no +P designation for .380 ACP in SAAMI specs. So what does that really tell us about the case pressure? In saying that, I think Buffalo Bore is using the +P designation more for marketing in order to say the bullets are loaded hotter than normal SAAMI pressure of 21,500 PSI.

On a side note, SAAMI does not have a designation for +P+ either. However, you see manufacturers using that in 9mm marketing.

This reply was meant more as trivia than anything else.

jonblack

[9.3X62AL]

There is some refreshing good sense being expressed herein. This place is great. :)

[StarMetal]

I have heard about, seen, and read about the Buffalo Bore brand bullets for .380 ACP. They advertise them as +P, but there is no +P designation for .380 ACP in SAAMI specs. So what does that really tell us about the case pressure? In saying that, I think Buffalo Bore is using the +P designation more for marketing in order to say the bullets are loaded hotter than normal SAAMI pressure of 21,500 PSI.

On a side note, SAAMI does not have a designation for +P+ either. However, you see manufacturers using that in 9mm marketing.

This reply was meant more as trivia than anything else.

jonblack

That makes a lot of sense in light of that most all 380's are blow back actions. If they truly were loaded to hight +P pressures that sure would tear up the piston in short order.

[FISH4BUGS]

There is some refreshing good sense being expressed herein. This place is great. :)

.......is a MAC M11A1 submachine gun. What a wonderfully fun little bullet hose. 1200+ rounds per minute empties a 32 round magazine pretty fast. I cast with a 10 cavity #S55 Hensly & Gibbs mould.
Self defense? Never would even consider this gun for self defense. I think it would be hard to explain to a court why 32 rounds were needed to stop the threat.
My S&W squarebutt Model 36 3" barrel will do the job....or the Serbu Super Shorty 20ga.

[StarMetal]

In doing some research, on the 9mm, SAAMI does have the standard and +P pressures, but does not sanction +P+, but the stuff does exist and it is hotter then +P. It's not a marketing hype, although some may use it when the ammo really isn't +P+.

[Bob.]

I have heard about, seen, and read about the Buffalo Bore brand bullets for .380 ACP. They advertise them as +P, but there is no +P designation for .380 ACP in SAAMI specs. So what does that really tell us about the case pressure? In saying that, I think Buffalo Bore is using the +P designation more for marketing in order to say the bullets are loaded hotter than normal SAAMI pressure of 21,500 PSI.

On a side note, SAAMI does not have a designation for +P+ either. However, you see manufacturers using that in 9mm marketing.

This reply was meant more as trivia than anything else.

jonblack

And on top of that Ruger sez don't use +P in the LCP ?
The Buffalo ammo is suppose to be loaded to SAMMI MAX.
It's suppose to be some of the hottest 380 you can buy, the 100 gn hard cast is suppose to be 280 FPE at 1125 FPS I haven't ran over a crono yet.
I dont understand how it can be that hot and not go over the SAMMI max?
When you shoot a round you can definitely tell it's hot though !
I will run some over the crono and see what it does in the LCP.

Bob

[jonblack]

The only point I was trying to make is that SAAMI does not have a spec for 380 +P nor 9mm +P+. I do not claim that manufacturers are not loading to higher pressures than SAAMI spec 380 or 9mm +P. I also won't make claims as to whether loading higher than SAAMI spec pressures is safe or not, because I don't know.

What is going on is that manufacturers are taking a technical term, which has a technical meaning as outlined and defined by an institute of standards, and then using it in a fashion that is outside of the original definitions.

What the manufacturers should really say is "Hey, we know SAAMI says that the max pressure of X catridge should be Y PSI, but we loaded it a little hotter. It'll be OK though, as long as you don't shoot it too much, or in the wrong gun. We'll define 'too much' or the 'wrong gun' at a later date."

This statement would be more accurate from a technical sense, because we don't technically know what +P means for 380, or +P+ for 9mm, as it has not been defined by SAAMI or anyone else.

To sum it up another way: What the hell is 380 ACP +P or 9mm +P+? Just really hot ammo?

Here is a good page on +P (http://greent.com/40Page/general/plusp.htm)

On a side note, I am not knocking Buffalo Bore ammo. I have even considered purchasing it myself. After looking at it, I determined they used good Star Line brass, a good quality cast or jacketed projectile (I have seen both versions) a primer, and a powder charge. What we don't know is what kind and how much powder they used to achieve the extra FPS (directly linked to case pressure) that leads them to call the round 380 +P.

I respectfully disagree with StarMetal in the case of the Buffalo Bore 380 ACP +P. I feel they do use "+P" as marketing hype, as it is a basically meaningless term as it related to 380 ACP, outside of trying to illustrate it is "hot ammo." In the case of 380 ACP, calling it +P is not too much different than calling it "Hot Ammo!" If you saw a bullet that said Hot Ammo! on the package, you might think it was marketing hype. They are using a somewhat familiar technical term out of context and the uninformed end up thinking that 380 +P is better than plain old 380 ACP. In this case, calling 380 ACP +P is equivalent to saying the ammunition is loaded higher than maximum SAAMI specs for the cartridge.

Buffalo Bore also puts 20 rounds into a huge box. The box could have held 50 or maybe even 100 rounds. Along with the big power, big box, big price tag, bigger is better. Again, this is marketing to me. I am not saying there is anything wrong with trying to make your product look more attractive. There is not. But to load something hot, apply a misused technical term on the package, and market it to people who are packing small plastic pocket pistols is...well, debatable.

Check this out, from the Buffalo Bore site:
Can I shoot your +P 380 auto ammo in my LCP?

Yes you can. Gun makers often warn against using any ammo that is not SAAMI spec. and there is no SAAMI spec. for the 380 auto+P cartridge. Gun makers do this to protect themselves from any liability in our super litigious American society. Buffalo Bore and others have tested our 380 auto+P ammo in the LCP and many LCP owners currently shoot our +P ammo in their LCPs and we've never heard of any problems from the "power" or "pressure" of the ammo, but obviously the use of +P ammo in these little guns should be limited to just enough to test reliable feeding and point of impact, then carry the ammo in your LCP in the event you need it, but don't go plinking with it.

Hmm...just shoot it a little, don't plink with it...why? No SAAMI spec for +P for the .380? Then why claim it is +P instead of just saying it is loaded hotter than recommended by SAAMI?

Any finally (I'll stop after this) Midway USA, a vendor of Buffalo Bore 380, says on this (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=188768&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=653) page "Buffalo Bore loads their ammunition up to maximum SAAMI specifications, which delivers devastating performance on a wide range of game. Please note that this ammunition is not intended for older guns. It is made for modern firearms only, as some of the ammunition could damage older and weaker firearms. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in boxer primed, reloadable brass cases."

How can Buffalo Bore 380 be loaded to maximum SAAMI specs and achieve more energy and velocity than anyone else? Since there is no SAAMI spec for 380 +P, that means maximum SAAMI is not +P and they are loading above SAAMI maximum specs.

In conclusion, I wanted to make the point there is no SAAMI spec for 380 +P, nor 9mm +P+, even though manufacturers do, in fact, load, label, and sell ammunition at higher pressures than SAAMI standard (in the case of 380 ACP) and SAAMI +P specs (in the case of 9mm) and use the aforementioned terms to denote being loaded higher than maximum recommended pressures. I do not intend to argue the safety aspects of 380 ACP ammo (or any other cartridge) loaded above SAAMI specs.

jonblack

[jonblack]

That makes a lot of sense in light of that most all 380's are blow back actions. If they truly were loaded to hight +P pressures that sure would tear up the piston in short order.

StarMetal

While some 380 pistols are blowback, the LCP, as well as Kel Tec P3AT, are locked breach designs. Locked breach is more accurately called short-recoil.

Here is a link (http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-6087.html) to a thread over at TheFiringLine forum with more info on the subject.

jonblack

[jonblack]

I will run some over the crono and see what it does in the LCP.

Bob

Bob, that would be great info for all of us to have.

I have loaded for my LCP, as well as my girlfriend's Sig P238. I am very new to casting, so I have not loaded any cast bullets, but I plan to cast for the 380 in the near future.

I load Hornady XTP 90 gr over W231. I won't go into load data, as there is plenty of published info with that powder/projectile combo. Proved to be very accurate (at 7 yards) with my LCP. I plan to do a little more tinkering with the load to see if the Sig P238 likes something different better.

jonblack

[casterofboolits]

For plinking loads in a 380 I used an H&G 09-125-SWCBB sized .356on top of 4.6 grns of Bluedot. This load fed and functioned in a Pony and two Colt Mustangs 100 % of the time. For carry, I always used the Winchester Silver tip .380 round.

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

While some 380 pistols are blowback, the LCP, as well as Kel Tec P3AT, are locked breach designs. Locked breach is more accurately called short-recoil.

Here is a link (http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-6087.html) to a thread over at TheFiringLine forum with more info on the subject.

jonblack

Jon,

You read my posts wrong. First I didn't say anything about the Buffalo Bore cartridges so you cannot disagree with me. Second I said that "most" 380's are straight blow back...not "all". Okay? I'm not arguing with you, I'm mostly agreeing with you. :bigsmyl2:

[StarMetal]

Now I will say something about Buffalo Bore 380 +P ammo. Here is the chrono results from a few different pistols:

1. BDA-3.75 inch barrel----1218 fps
2. Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----1200 fps
3. Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel---1123 fps
4. Keltec---1100 fps

That certainly isn't a standard loading velocity. Maybe their claim is correct.

Do you have something against Buffalo Bore?

[BFG9000]

Hi all,

Just wanted to point out that reportedly Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore himself admitted last year to multiple people that their 380 +P is loaded to a whopping 25,000psi approximate Maximum average pressure.

The SAAMI spec is 21,500psi meaning that any proof load must be between 28,000 and 30,000psi.

The (in)famous Clark Magnuson reported that the P3-AT has very poor chamber support making case bulging the limiting factor when overloading, and furthermore the chamber thickness is alarmingly thin at 0.029"

There have now been enough warranty cases of peening and pins walking out of LCPs from using +P that Ruger has revised their manual to now specifically state that +P ammunition must not be used in the LCP.

Kahr officially says that Buffalo Bore +P is ok for the P380.

But stop and consider that 95+gr FMJ or cast 380 has no problem penetrating 21"+ in gelatin even at 800fps, so what exactly would +P bring to the table besides reduced reliability? I mean I wouldn't trust any 90gr hollowpoint at 1100fps to penetrate 12" and even the hardcast 100gr at "1061fps" doesn't exactly transform it into a bear load.

Buffalo Bore does make 380 standard pressure ammunition also.

[StarMetal]

Hi all,

Just wanted to point out that reportedly Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore himself admitted last year to multiple people that their 380 +P is loaded to a whopping 25,000psi approximate Maximum average pressure.

The SAAMI spec is 21,500psi meaning that any proof load must be between 28,000 and 30,000psi.

The (in)famous Clark Magnuson reported that the P3-AT has very poor chamber support making case bulging the limiting factor when overloading, and furthermore the chamber thickness is alarmingly thin at 0.029"

There have now been enough warranty cases of peening and pins walking out of LCPs from using +P that Ruger has revised their manual to now specifically state that +P ammunition must not be used in the LCP.

Kahr officially says that Buffalo Bore +P is ok for the P380.

But stop and consider that 95+gr FMJ or cast 380 has no problem penetrating 21"+ in gelatin even at 800fps, so what exactly would +P bring to the table besides reduced reliability? I mean I wouldn't trust any 90gr hollowpoint at 1100fps to penetrate 12" and even the hardcast 100gr at "1061fps" doesn't exactly transform it into a bear load.

Buffalo Bore does make 380 standard pressure ammunition also.

So that is conclusive proof that Buffalo Bore 380 +P is indeed +P.

The idea is that the 90 explodes. Say you were shooting an assailant center mass. I'd be happy with a 90 HV hollow point that penetrated only six inches. That means it would take his whole heart out. It's not always about how much it penetrates. You know the FBI have a penetration maximum requirement. They don't want over penetration. A 1100-1200 90 gr hollow point bullet is something to reckon with. How many of you would like being shot with say a 22 mag hollow point? Ask Jeff Cooper that question if he were still alive today. He did speak about it.

[BFG9000]

The FBI prefers a minimum of 12-18" because they expect to be shooting at people who are aiming guns at them, and this would be enough to go through a forearm obliquely. They don't shoot at people who have their hands up. They directly concluded that anything less than 12" means it is not effective, and 18" is better. Doesn't sound like they're too concerned about overpenetration, and in actual gunfights, most shots fired are complete misses anyway:shock:

Note that this minimum penetration spec is even after going through barriers like car steel, wallboard, plywood or windshield glass--something which is not possible to meet without massive overpenetration into bare gelatin when using non hollowpoint designs.

There is no way any 380 can meet this requirement after going through barriers like those (+P or not) so 380 is not issued or recommended by the FBI. Nevertheless it only makes sense to not handicap yourself with a round that automatically makes every fat guy armored, making FMJ or cast (non-hollowpoint) the preferred choice for 380.

I think we all know that Jeff Cooper was a proponent of Big Bores, as he often suggested the best way to use "minor" calibers like 9mm (twice as powerful as 380!) was to quickly empty the gun point blank directly into their face when they were not looking. He said "Of course if you place your shot with particular care, a .22 will do the job, but sometimes one gets excited."

[jonblack]

First, I am a new member here. You have all made me feel very welcome, and I have learned a tremendous amount in my short time here. I do not mean to step on anyone's toes here. That holds especially true for long-time members. If anyone feels I am out of bounds please say so. I would gracefully bow out of a technical debate if anyone finds insult.


Jon,

You read my posts wrong. First I didn't say anything about the Buffalo Bore cartridges so you cannot disagree with me....

Sir, I have reread your post. You are absolutely correct on this issue, and I stand corrected. I would also like to apologize for my misunderstanding your position.


Second I said that "most" 380's are straight blow back...not "all". Okay? I'm not arguing with you, I'm mostly agreeing with you. :bigsmyl2:

Actually you said "most all" 380's are blow back actions. The OP mentioned the LCP, and since it is so close in design to the Kel Tec, I felt it necessary to point out that the LCP and Kel Tec are not blow back actions. I think we all agree that some, but not all, 380s are blow back action.


So that is conclusive proof that Buffalo Bore 380 +P is indeed +P.

I wholeheartedly believe that Buffalo Bore 380 Auto +P is loaded over maximum pressures for 380 ACP as specified by SAAMI.

Technically speaking, the numbers referenced, if accurate, would be conclusive proof that Buffalo Bore's 380 ACP +P cartridge is loaded to higher case pressure than what SAAMI specifies for 380 ACP.

That is not conclusive proof that Buffalo Bore's 380 ACP +P cartridge should accurately be called +P.

Here are my reasons:
1. SAAMI does not designate a 380 ACP +P specification. Therefore, just because a cartridge is loaded to higher pressures does not make it +P. It only makes it higher pressure than SAAMI designation specifies for a particular cartridge.
2. If my research is correct, +P, as a technical term, was introduced by SAAMI in 1974. +P is a technical term to denote maximum working pressure for a cartridge that is loaded over any non +P designated cartridge. Therefore, it is important to note that the term "+P" is not completely interchangeable with "loaded over max pressure."
3. +P is a "window" or "range" of pressure over standard, and it has a defined maximum pressure in order to fit into that designation. Labeling ammunition +P means you should be able to look up in a table and find out what the working pressure of the cartridge is. We can not look up in a table and find out what the working pressure of 380 ACP +P is.

Really, we are having a debate over semantics. We both agree that Buffalo Bore 380 Auto +P is loaded hotter than SAAMI spec. Where I think we fail to agree is whether or not it is appropriate to use the technical term "+P" to label the ammunition. I don't think it is appropriate because "+P" it is not defined by SAAMI in regards to the 380 ACP cartridge and therefore we know nothing about the maximum pressures of Buffalo's 380 ACP +P ammo. I think you feel (please correct me if I am wrong) it is appropriate because their 380 ACP +P ammo exceeds the maximum pressure of standard 380 ACP as defined by SAAMI.

We both have our viewpoints. I have no problem with you having your viewpoint, and I hope you have no problem in me having my viewpoint.

Thank you
jonblack

[dualsport]

Anybody know if the Bersa Thunder is a blowback or locked breach? Is it generally the striker fired guns that are blowback and exposed hammer guns locked breach?

[jonblack]

Anybody know if the Bersa Thunder is a blowback or locked breach? Is it generally the striker fired guns that are blowback and exposed hammer guns locked breach?

I could not find any conclusive evidence on the internet, as least with a quick scan. I believe the 380 is a blow back design, with the larger caliber Bersa's being locked breach. It does say on Bersa's website that "The Thunder 9, Thunder 40 and Thunder 45 pistols are of locked breech design."

One way to tell would be to pull back the slide slightly, maybe 1/8" to 1/4". If the barrel comes back with the slide, and then drops down out of the way, it is a locked breach, or more accurately, a short action.

If the barrel does not move at all when you slowly pull the slide back it is a blow back design.

My first guess is blow back, so please let us know what you come up with.

Take care
jonblack

[jonblack]

Is it generally the striker fired guns that are blowback and exposed hammer guns locked breach?

Not in general. It has little to do with striker fired versus exposed hammer. Blow back designs are usually limited to small calibers, smaller than 9mm. The advantage of blow back designs is that they are easier, thus less costly, to manufacture. The disadvantage to blow back designs is that the slide must be heavier than locked breach designs.

This really starts to come to light in calibers larger than 380.

For example, think of the Hi Point line of 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP guns. Think about how big and bulky the slide is. Those are blow back guns.

Hope this helps
jonblack

[BFG9000]

Bersa Thunder 380 is blowback, with hammer
P-3AT is locked breech, striker
LCP is locked breech, hammer
P380 is locked breech, striker
HSc is blowback, hammer

A striker is just a hammer that slides instead of pivots.

If you are loading for the LCP, some folks at the LCP forum (elsiepeaforum.com, where else?) have reported their magazines won't hold rounds longer than 0.965" while others say up to 0.970" is okay in theirs. I would suggest ejecting a test round to make sure a live round can be ejected, because sometimes a round can be short enough to fit + feed from the magazine but too long to eject out the top. This makes ejecting a dud round a scary affair requiring three hands, magazine out and pushing the round down the magazine well.

For cast boolits I strongly recommend a single-base powder (burns cooler, less lube smoke) that is bulky enough to fill much of the case (impossible to double charge) like Solo1000 or N320. Red Dot is dirtier at such low pressures but perfectly usable also. In 2.5-2.75" short barrels a charge of Unique only burns 85% so I stick with the faster powders--even Clays or N310 if 800fps is enough. That's all that WWB 95gr will do in such a short barrel anyway; supposedly it's factory loaded with Autocomp (which is as slow as HS-6) and if so, less than 70% of the powder should burn, explaining why it loses 150fps with a couple less inches of barrel. Clays can do this with a lot less noise, recoil and dirt as 100% burns within 1".

[dualsport]

Thankyou both for the info. I should have been able to figure that one out, I have field stripped the Bersa a couple times for cleaning. The barrel is fixed to the frame, doesn't move when the slide comes back. For what it's worth, so far it has been reliable in function and accuracy is decent, palm sized groups at 15 yds. with Russian fmj ammo. I'm new to the .380, but it seemed stout to me, I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of those commie balls! Still 'getting ready' to get ready to reload for it, have everything I need, except time. The LCP looks like a slick deal, couldn't get much more compact than that and still be able to hold on to it. I really like the lazer grips, I'm saving up for a set for my carry gun, a S&W M60 3" .357. EDIT; A personal quirk I have, I like a gun that makes a good club when things go south, must be a ancient cave man gene at work in there. I'm not saying it makes good sense.

[jonblack]

P-3AT is locked breech, striker

Kel Tec P-3AT has a hammer. Here is a picture (snagged, not my scan) of a P-3AT parts list.

I want to spend some time looking at your load data. Looks like you know your stuff on the .380 loads.

Thank you
jonblack

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/Packer_photos/100_2446_edited.jpg

[BFG9000]

:oops: d'oh! You can even see it in the back of the slide! It's the part that Ruger screwed up when copying, hence the big recall.

jon, loading for such short barrels (for example the P380 has just 1.5" of rifling in its 2.5" barrel) is really very different because it turns all the normal powders too slow! Of course occasionally it is also fun to have a huge fireball and unexpectedly loud bang come out of such little pistols too. Quickload is the best way to simulate things where there is no load data, before trying in real life. PM me your email and I can show you.

I haven't used cast in this polygonal barrel 380 but plated RNFP is only about 7 cents each shipped. The biggest problem with the plated bullets I've used is they were all undersized at 0.353-0.354" but on the bright side they are so short and stubby I could bump them up without a die!

I just squished them with Knipex parallel-jaw pliers about 0.015" (I used a hex nut as a spacer to limit travel) and the diameter bumped up perfectly concentric as well as I could measure, plus it even put a nice WWB sized meplat on the nose! Most importantly, accuracy improved to better than expensive, unavailable factory ammo. Well I never would've guessed... don't be afraid to experiment.

[Doble Troble]

I've used the 105 gr Lee SWC sized to 357 and lubed with White Label BAC. I've only used 3.2 gr of Unique. I thought this would be light, but it's noticably snappier than store bought. Reliability has been 100%. I'm surprized this gun is as reliable as it is even with swc reloads: it isn't a refined gun by any measure other than (1) reliability and (2) concealability. It does just disappear in even shorts pockets. And its accurate enough to put medium-sized holes in most things where you want them within 10 yds. I guess its a pretty good gun!