3.5" 45ACP Accuracy Load

[GMT210]

I'm looking for next step recommendations on a reasonable target load for a Colt MK-IV Series 80 Officer 3.5" 45ACP.

I've started with W231 5.0gr to 5.4gr without much consistancy, random 6" groupings at 7yds, without any signs of key-holing, leading or jams though.

Current Components to play with:
Cast WW + 1% SN, air-cooled, Alox & JPW tumble lubed.
Lee 200 grain SWC, Sized .0015 over bore size.
Measured Bhn 15.8 hardness, avg of 5.
W231, Tightgroup, Universal Clays, H110, SR7625.
Wolf LP primers
Sufficient quantities of multiple case brands
Hornady LNL
Hornady New Dimension Carbide dies & Lee FCD

Thanks GMT

[Bret4207]

.0015 over bore or groove? If bore then your problem is obvious. If groove then I'd look at lube and possibly trying some as cast rather than sized at all. Also check some pulled boolits to be sure you aren't reducing diameter in seating/crimping.

[GBertolet]

Ditto on the bullet size. Maybe you actually ment groove diameter rather than bore diameter. You want groove diameter. Usually .452-.453 is a good size to start with. Any bigger and they may not chamber. How does the gun shoot with factory ammo? If poorly, maybe it's the gun. I trust you are firing from a supported rest to eliminate the human factor. At 7 yards you should be getting silver dollar size groups or better with good ammo and a properly working gun.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'll disagree with GBertolet at this point: you should be getting groups MUCH smaller than a half dollar at seven yards with any decent standard pressure .45 ACP load. If the bullet is sized to .452-.453 and not deformed by too much crimping and the gun is even half way fitted correctly, you should be shooting a ragged hole off a rested position at 21 feet.

My standard shooting load for a 200 SWC is 5.0 WW-231/HP-38 and it will stay inside 2.5" at 25 yards all day long through my Springfield Operator.

Make sure that a) your shooting technique is fundamentally sound and b) that your pistol is fitted correctly. Even crappy loads shoot OK at very close range...

[Larry Gibson]

7 yards? Is this from a rest, off hand, 2 hands, one hand or what?

What does the pistol and you do with factory hardball at 7 yards from this same position?

Not being hard on you just trying to set a standard to work from.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

What do you mean by target load? Do you mean a load where the recoil is light...or strictly accuracy...or both? That load you have there is nearly 850 fps out of a full size 1911 and I don't consider it a very light load. Shooting it out of that small Officer's model gotta have some kick to it. Not making fun of you, and this can happen to the best of us, maybe you're intimidated by the pistol's recoil and blast. The pistol should do better then that at 7 yards. I doubt a smooth bore would keyhole at that short of a distance.

You might try say 3.8 grains of Bullseye or lower your 231 load some.

[GMT210]

Answers & Clarifications:

Bret4207: Bore slugged out to 0.4512, I size my cast bullets to 0.4528. I am very familiar with the Lee FCD, crimp just barely removes the flare & pulled bullets measure 0.4525.

Gbertolet, Wayne, Larry: 7yd reference was done indoors with 2 hands, did not have factory ammo with me to try. I usually do not have any trouble holding my CZ-75D or GP100 to under 1.5" at those distances off with my cast reloads with medium and full power loads.

Starmetal: I don't consider the recoil to be out of the ordinary, and surely less than the medium to full power 357 loads.

I agree that the Officer should do better than this at the short distance. I need to pickup some factory ammo and see how it shoots from a rest.

[Coffeecup]

For what it is worth (probably not much), the OM I had did very well with a Lyman 452374 cast of ACWW, sized .452", lubed with LBT commercial. Load was 5.7 gr. WW231/WLP/mixed military cases. It seemed to definitely prefer a taper crimp (to .472") vs. the Lee FCD.

Not exactly a target load, but when I did my part it would hit a poker chip at 25 yards, time after time. I could never get it to do as well with a 200 gr. SWC.

[cardonasharp]

Use 6.0 grains of unique. Thats the load I use in my sw1911pc. RCBS mold 200gr swc. at 25 yards in the middle

[Jumping Frog]

Well, I see you cross-posted here as well. Thought I'd say hello to you from OFCC.

When stuff is that weird from that close, get out a Q-tip and run it around your muzzle looking for burrs or other muzzle damage.

Also, try shooting a round and then ejecting the subsequent round from the chamber to inspect the bullet and its seating. Those Lee TL452-200-SWC bullets have a very low profile nose and some 1911's have a hard time feeding them without really jamming them. My 1911 won't feed them at all.

[StarMetal]

That crown would have to be severely damaged to throw bullets in that large of group at 7 yards. I also don't see any powder or any bullet changing that group that much....at 7 yards.

I'm not buying that it's more of a puppy to shoot then a 357 Magnum. I grew up on 1911's. I have a Combat Commander Gold Cup, as you know 4.25 inch barrel, and I'm shooting a 200 grain load that noways near max and it's sure more then a 357. I have a 4 inch Model 19 Smith in 357 and I don't see them as any magnum far as recoil. I'm not recoil sensitive either, I love the big boomer handguns. I'd like to see the pistol in a Ransom rest to eliminate shooter error. We'll see what you do off a rest. Like I said you should be able to shoot a smaller group then that with a smooth bore pistol.

[Lloyd Smale]

lyman 200 swc and 4.5 grains of aa2 shoots 1.5 inch at 25 out of my kimber comander and 1.0 out of the old cdp 3 inch kimber i had but that gun was no doubt an exceptional 3 inch gun. It shot everything well. Bottom line is the same loads that work well in 5 inch guns will work well in the short ones if you have the proper springs for the load your using.

[Bret4207]

Answers & Clarifications:

Bret4207: Bore slugged out to 0.4512, I size my cast bullets to 0.4528. I am very familiar with the Lee FCD, crimp just barely removes the flare & pulled bullets measure 0.4525.

[

Hold it- The BORE slugged .4512 or the GROOVES slugged .4512? On a slug the big part is the groove measurement. I'm assuming that's what you mean. You may well need a slightly fatter boolit. .001 isn't much lead to depend on gripping the rifling and truthfully a slight burr on a slug can throw you off more than a thou. I would try some as cast/unsized boolits and see what they do, from a rest. It may take a while to figure out what your gun/load combo want with that alloy/design. Change one thing at a time and record everything you observe.

A fat boolit is almost always better than a thin one.

[GMT210]

Brett4207: Relax, I understand the difference between bore diameter and groove diameter. The slug measured .4512, I sized my castings to .4528, after pulling the first couple they were .4525 to confirm that they were not over crimped.

[Bass Ackward]

When you have something that is less than ideal, it is usually the gun in some form or fashion.

It ain't leading. So I'd cut back to about 4.5 grains and shoot it. If it don't clean up in say 1000 rounds then it isn't internal to the barrel and look elsewhere. Check the bushing fit? But that 4.5 grain load should get'er done better than 2" at that distance.

Want to be a hero? When I was a kid, that's what they did for (to) me and I thought they were the greatest guys in the world. So load up a bushel basket of ammo and go make some kid happy while he puts you over the top. :grin:

[KYCaster]

Time to take a good close look at the gun. Something just aint right!

If you're not leading or key-holing, there's nothing wrong with the boolit fit. If 5.0 of 231 behind a 200 SWC doesn't shoot any better than 60 MOA, you're not gonna get there by tweaking the load. (6" at 25 yds. = 24 MOA and I consider that very poor)

Check the bushing/barrel/slide fit, and the slide/barrel/link fit.

Good luck.
Jerry

[Bret4207]

Brett4207: Relax, I understand the difference between bore diameter and groove diameter. The slug measured .4512, I sized my castings to .4528, after pulling the first couple they were .4525 to confirm that they were not over crimped.

If you know the difference, why use the incorrect term and confuse the situation?

You have a fit issue, I would address that first.

[Echo]

At the Gun Show today I picked up a Kimber that had been 'fixed up'. Felt good. The owner extolled its virtues, saying 'And it's tight!'. I immediately replied 'No, it's not.' Vertical and horizontal play, so I would be surprised if it could keep them all in the black @ 50 yds. Still, not so bad as to make 60 minute groups. My guess is the gun has a problem.

[wboggs]

I shoot a Kimber Tactical Ultra II (3" barrel) with either a 185 gr. LSWC; 4.8 gr. Bullseye or 200 gr. LSWC; 5.2 gr. Bullseye and at 25-30' consistently fire one hole groups with either load. One thing I found adds that last little bit of accuracy is to crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. I ran a test with and without that crimp and noticed I picked up accuracy with that crimp. It doesnt hurt your feeding either, not that Kimber has feed problems but sure makes for a nice smooth cartridge.

Actually I get those same results, same load with a 4" Kimber Pro Carry and a 5" Kimber Custom Target too.

[David2011]

GMT,

Take a good look at the bushing while you're looking. Is it tight in the slide? Can you move the barrel in the bushing? Inspect carefully for a crack in the bushing. Your gun needs to be looked over by a 1911 smith if you don't find and fix a glaring problem easily. How is the trigger? Is it crisp and between 5-6 pounds or is it heavy, creepy and gritty? A 3.5" 1911 is not easy to shoot but should do far better than you are experiencing. If the trigger is poor no load will shoot well.

If you don't have sandbags make some by putting sand in a heavy plastic bag and then put that in a heavy sock. Leave it a little soft so you can nestle the frame down in the sandbag.

I would think the 5.0-5.4 gr charges with a 200 gr swc would be fairly mild in a 3.5" barrel and should provide acceptable accuracy. Your accuracy problems are not due to the bullet selection and powder charge based on your initial post. Can you try your loads in a 5" 1911, just to compare?

I have a 4" carry 1911 that shoots well and feeds on anything that has enough pressure to cycle the action. Anything getting 850 fps should be shooting one ragged hole at 7 yards. Good luck and keep us posted.

David

[lawboy]

4.2grs WST & H&G 200 gr SWC or RCBS 201 SWC or RCBS 225 RN.

[wboggs]

At the Gun Show today I picked up a Kimber that had been 'fixed up'. Felt good. The owner extolled its virtues, saying 'And it's tight!'. I immediately replied 'No, it's not.' Vertical and horizontal play, so I would be surprised if it could keep them all in the black @ 50 yds. Still, not so bad as to make 60 minute groups. My guess is the gun has a problem.

I'm curious; what did the seller say when you said it wasn't tight?

You know they usually point out the biggest weakness as its strength when they're selling you.

[MtGun44]

My Officers ACP and every other one that I have shot is/are accurate, like 2" or
better at 25yds with good ammo. I find the run of the mill Officers ACP is more
accurate than the run of the mill full length 1911.

My experience with .45 ACP is that best accy is down around 3.5 gr of TG or BE, low velocity.
My best accy is 452460 altho good H&G 68 clones are close and very reliable feeding.

If the gun will only do 3.5" at 7 yds something is wrong. Should be one ragged hole, like
1" at 7 yds with no problem. Basically I once tried to test ammo at 12 yds (only range that
was available) and found it to be a waste of time and ammo. EVERYTHING shot into 1-1.5"
even stuff that was very bad at 25 yds. Can't imagine getting that poor accy with any load,
I think there must be a gun or shooter problem.

No offense but have you tried letting someone else that you know to be a good shot try
this combo out? Maybe developing a flinch/jerk - not an uncommon problem when moving
up to heavier recoiling guns. For some a short .45 ACP is a pussycat, for others it will induce
flinching. What is the trigger pull on this gun? This can be a big deal, too, esp from standing
position - a hard trigger can be a large factor in ruining groups.

Bill

[wboggs]

My Officers ACP and every other one that I have shot is/are accurate, like 2" or
better at 25yds with good ammo. I find the run of the mill Officers ACP is more
accurate than the run of the mill full length 1911.

I'm surprised to see that posted; my experience reading about and firing 1911 is that one of their claims to fame is their accuracy. Though that doesn't mean cheap or poorly made ones are accurate.

This is a hand held 5 shot group at 50' and I can do this with either my 3, 4 or 5" 1911:
http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/40703/2481787450101870711S500x500Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2481787450101870711YxQEaa)

This is a 50 shot rapid fire group at 50'and I can do this with either my 3, 4 or 5" 1911:
http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/44602/2929545470101870711S500x500Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2929545470101870711QzePuB)


No offense but have you tried letting someone else that you know to be a good shot try
this combo out? Maybe developing a flinch/jerk - not an uncommon problem when moving
up to heavier recoiling guns. For some a short .45 ACP is a pussycat, for others it will induce
flinching. What is the trigger pull on this gun? This can be a big deal, too, esp from standing
position - a hard trigger can be a large factor in ruining groups.

A good way to learn if you are flinching or how to discover any undesirable movement for any reason is to load up several magazines with varying numbers of live loads and dummy loads with a live load on top of every magazine so you cant easily tell what order they might be in. Ideally load these at home before you even go to the range so you've not likely to remember which is which. The fire them and watch what happens when, by surprise one is a dummy load. Your bad habits will be very obvious and after several magazines full, you will shoot better; at least that day.

[GMT210]

It appears that I have a sloppy housing/bushing/barrel fit. I can wiggle the assembly without much effort.

Any 1911 gunsmith recommendations for Northeast Ohio?

GMT

[GT27]

Use a dial caliper and measure the O.D. of the barrel+the inside diameter or the slide where the bushing sits,call Evolution Gun Works at(215) 538-1012 and ask for George Smith.These guys are some of the best 1911 builders in the business. Give him the dimensions and he will take very good care of you,tell him Glenn Smith from Easton referred you! Then try 5 grains of Titegroup with the 200 grain lead boolit...
http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34_26&products_id=208 (egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34_26&products_id=208)

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a Taurus 1911 .45 ACP and other than new wooden stocks it is orginal. Out of the box it had a 3.8# trigger. After 6,000 rounds it now breaks like glass at 3# and delivers 1.26 groups at 25 yds using mixed brass and a charge of 4.5 gr of Clays under a 200 SWC cast boolit lubed with Lar45's Carnuba Red and sized to .453 and the last die it sees is the Lee FCD.

This is not a wimp loading but it does get the job done. I have made thousands of these and I can shoot them all day long off hand. From a rest it is a tack driver but with two hands and at 25 yds I am only getting 2 1/2 inch groups off hand.

From a rest at 7 yds I am getting cloverleafs of a mite less than an inch with a full magazine. On a paper target at 100 yds it has printed 5 inch groups from a solid rest and off hand I can hit the paper most times.

[GMT210]

Well I finally had some time to take down my Colt Officer's ACP and here are the numbers.

Housing ID = 0.765
Bushing OD = 0.759
Bushing ID = 0.703
Barrel OD = 0.694

Based on these numbers I would have a total stacked clearance of 0.0075 if I'm thinking about this correctly.

Looks like I need to order a bushing from EGW, while I'm ordering has anyone tried EGW's reverse plug and guide rod kit?


GMT

[GT27]

Wayyyyy to much clearance,like I said give George a call...believe me he sells no garbage!

[MtGun44]

I'm talking about the typical Colt 1911 or milsurp that was pretty much the only thing out
there until about 20 yrs ago. The newer production pistols are often much more tightly
fitted (but not always) plus the chambers and throats are sometimes so tight as to
constitute a reliability issue. I know of a few new 1911 owners that had the chambers
opened up to std dimensions when the (proudly advertised) match chamber proved too
tight to work reliably.

Good groups, and I have several 1911s that are very accurate. I've not owned enough
made in the last 15 yrs (only a couple) to have too much data, but my older guns fit with
what I said was "in my experience". Three different Officers ACPs have proven to be
exceptionally accurate for me. In my experience with ordinary ammo most older Colt
1911s would shoot about 4" at 25 yds unless they were significantly reworked.

Another point, I never shoot at 50 ft, but at 25 yds, so at least 50% larger groups would
be expected. My most accurate 1911 (DW Ptman7) will shoot my handloads into 1-1.25"
at 25 yds. Most others that I own or have shot will not do that well.

Your targets show good shooting with a good modern example of where the 1911
has evolved to with modern machinery and developments.