Still failing

[herbert buckland]

PP 303 british ,I have been sizing CBE .315-218 boolit to .308 then patching two raps of lined notpad paper,then sizing to .314 as large as i can go ,seating so as the paper nealy touches the cone ,no crimp,38 gr AR 2208 ,but when i fiear i just get a mist of lead in the barell and no acuracy at all ,I tryed this load in another rifle with the same results,am i yousing the wrong boolit or am i doing somthing else wrong

[303Guy]

herbert , 38gr AR2208 sounds a little high for a paper patched boolit of 218gr. It's within the range of a 215gr j-word but if the pressure gets too high the lateral pressure of the boolit against the bore could become a problem. Do you have any AR2209? What cases are you using? Do you know the cpacity of the cases in terms of powder to the base of the neck?

You said you seat "so as the paper nealy touches the cone". Is that the leade 'cone' or the throat entry cone?

Are you able to post pictures of your boolits?

This is what my heavy (230gr) loaded rounds look like (these are too long for reliable magazine use). One can see the rifling marks on the bore-ride section.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-658F.jpg

This is a 208gr patched boolit.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-611F.jpg

How do yours compare?

[herbert buckland]

By the cone i mean the cone into the rifling ,i am single loading for now,I am yousing winchester brass 38gr AR 2208 fills the cases to about 5mm from the start of the neck,I have not got any 2209 on hand ,my boolits are patched very simular to yours,my aim is to get J velocitys with PP ,I am new to conputers and do not know how to post photos,this PPing is not as strait forward as i thort it would be but i will perservier

[rhbrink]

"this PPing is not as strait forward as i thort it would be but i will perservier" Amen brother! You are not alone herbert so far my best effort is about 36 MOA at 50 yards but they all made nice round holes so I"m encouraged.

[zuke]

Have you tried Trail Boss for a powder?
It might surprise you.

[herbert buckland]

Have you tried Trail Boss for a powder?
It might surprise you.Yes i youse TB with GC with very good results,also 22 1/2gr AR 2207 with GC for a bit more punch ,but so fare the high velocity PP has defeted me,but i will get there with a litle help

[barrabruce]

What is your bore /groove size???

[docone31]

Could it be, you have one of the large bore .303s?
Try wrapping some and firing them there, no sizeing.
Have you measured the neck of the case?

[herbert buckland]

Could it be, you have one of the large bore .303s?
Try wrapping some and firing them there, no sizeing.
Have you measured the neck of the case?groove size on the 2 rifles i tested the load in is .3124 & .3128 boolits are sized to .314 which is as large as i can go and still chamber

[Zeek]

You want to seat your PPCBoo out so that you get some notable resistance to chambering. In other words, it should be jammed into the leade cone. Watch out, too, about sizing-down the neck too much. Try a Lee collet neck sizer and adjust so that it will hold the seated PPCBoo unmoving, but if the die were set any lighter, then you might be able to pull the PPCBoo by hand. That light-grip approach can really help.
Zeek

[303Guy]

Exactly as Zeek says.

A note on minimum neck tension is that the patched boolit seems to seat real easy - too easy it might seem, but try pulling it out again and it won't move. I try to size my case necks so's the expansion on seating can hardly be measured.

[herbert buckland]

have tryed everything sugested and it is still not working,is it posible that some boolits are just not sutied to PP as i have tryed the same load in a perfect barell with the same results,I am wating on a Lee 308 mould before i have another go

[zuke]

Almost sound's like the paper's being blown off it here and there on the way out.
Exactly how do you wrap and twist your patch's?

[herbert buckland]

Almost sound's like the paper's being blown off it here and there on the way out.
Exactly how do you wrap and twist your patch's?I cut my PPs so they rap
exactly 2 times around the boolit ,the ends are cut 30degrees ,i dry roll the paper on as i am use to doing it this way for BP cartriges( which i have had great sucess with for years)twist the tail up then push them trough a Lee .314 sizer,they look neat and stay together well,i think you are right about the patch coming apart in the barell ,when i fire these loads it looks lick BP smoke coming out the end

[rhead]

It sounds like the patch is not surviving the trip to the barrel or down the barrel.

Some things to try if you haven't already.

Different papers, wrapped both wet and dry.

Slower powder.

Firing from an unsized case.

Try a cooler primer.

[zuke]

Wet wrap some patch's and I'm pretty sure your problem will go away.

[303Guy]

herbert, what paper are you using? I have found evidence of a boolit slipping inside the patch (fired boolit). Printer paper of the type used in our desk jets doesn't slip on the boolit because it is so rough and compressable. It does not bind to the case neck or bore. It is pliable enough to take the form of the boolit with dry wrapping and twist tightening. Note pad papers need more care to make them bold to the boolit surface and the to themselves, some more than others. In short, the boolit could be being driven out of the patch at the case mouth/chamber throat point on firing. 'Could' being the operative word - it's not a certainty.

[docone31]

Why would someone dry wrap a casting?
Something is missing here.

[303Guy]

Why would someone dry wrap a casting?Ahhhhhh .... Dry wrapping is something one needs to try to appreciate. It has its disadvantages to be sure. The plus is that there is no drying and no wetting involved BUT it is harder to wrap them on tight. (And in my case it, the ink doesn't get smudged!:mrgreen:)

Anyway, I think I have an answer for herbert.

I couldn't understand what was going wrong - nothing really added up, so I did some testing of my own.
Bingo!
If the boolit alloy is too hard the patch can slip on the core on firing!

I tested a hard alloy smooth sided boolit of the design that normally works very reliably for me and the flippin' core moved in the patch on seating! So I tried again with a knurled core and wet patch. It seated to near the end before moving. I tried a different knurled core and this time it seated but the patched boolit stayed behind in the throat on extracting the un-fired round and on pushing the boolit out, the patch stayed behind in the bore. So I tried a previously dry-patched boolit and that worked. It still required some force to chamber into the bore-ride but the boolit un-chambered just fine. That one was a different alloy with a different hardness but still not soft.

So, adding to rhead's suggested list to try; try a softer alloy.

Hope that helps.:drinks:

[herbert buckland]

I am using straight WW what would you sugest to sofen it 50/50 WW & roofing lead sound OK

[docone31]

Soften it?
Here I am blending zinc into the melt to toughen it.
I water quench my blend to toughen it. After sizeing, it only grows .001.
Works real well for me.

[303Guy]

I am using straight WW what would you sugest to sofen it 50/50 WW & roofing lead sound OK I'd suggest simply annealing a few in an oven and see what happens.

I tried two fairly hard castings - the one slipped in the patch, the other one didn't! Go figure! I tried an annealed one and it was fine. In fact, it worked in my two-groove without shearing the rifling! That's a first. Was it the compressed wheat bran filler and 65% slow powder (AR2209) charge used - don't know. What I do know is you have steered me onto something worth developing and field testing!:drinks:


Soften it?
Here I am blending zinc into the melt to toughen it.Well, I only just found out today that a particular harder alloy was slippery against paper. Another harder alloy partially sheared the rifling while an annealed one did not! The more I think I learn the more I realize I'm only just begining to scratch the surface!
Quite humbling.:mrgreen:


I love this forum!:drinks:

[herbert buckland]

I think i have tryed every thing now with this boolit ,I will have to acept that i have a boolit that does not acept being PP,hope I have beter luck with the new mould wen it arives in the meantime this one is very good with GCs and TB or AP 2207

[zuke]

I use ANY bullet mold for my PP bullet's.
I lube it well and push the .45 cal thru a 451 or a 452 die,doesn't seem to make a difference.
Clean off the lube and then wet patch them. They dry overnight and I can load them the next day.
I use this paper I picked up at Staple's.It measure's .0023 in thickness.
I use a paper cutter I picked up in the same isle to cut my sheet's to size.
When you have it figured out use a fine marker to scribe the proper distance to cut to.
I also scribed into the base then used a marker for the 30deg. angle.
In an hour I can slice up an entire pad and am good for 400-500 patch's.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/zuke_bucket/DSCF1058.jpg
http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/zuke_bucket/DSCF1057.jpg

[zuke]

Here's the paper cutter and the marking's on it.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/zuke_bucket/DSCF1060.jpg

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/zuke_bucket/DSCF1059.jpg

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/zuke_bucket/DSCF1061.jpg

[303Guy]

If we could understand why this particular boolit is failing we would increase our understanding of the principles of paper patching I should think. At this point we can only speculate. I've had plenty patching failure but in spite of non-existant accuracy, I only once had key-holing at close range and that was with known to be bent boolits. There was no patch failure in that instance. I did have patch failure in one gun with a load that worked in another but these were not fired into paper so I don't know if there was yaw.

Something that I wonder about is that a casting that shoots well as a lubed boolit but is then sized and patched is going to have an oversized bore-ride section, would it not? Could that be pushing the seated boolit deeper into the case? That could shift the patch and result in it slipping off the core on firing, perhaps?

I have one rifle with a good bore that had some fine surface roughness and that one caused patch failure. I fire-lapped it and pushed abrasive pads through it until it was smooth enough for the patch to survive. This not the same problem that herbert is having.

[docone31]

I am willing to bet, there are no tails on those castings. I do not mean precisely folded edges, I mean tails. I use the tail as a kind of gasket to compensate for the gas check. It also provides a column effect to push the patch with the casting.
If you have a solid base, the pressure can only push against the base, unless the sizeing is off and you have gas cutting.
Food for thought.

[herbert buckland]

I am willing to bet, there are no tails on those castings. I do not mean precisely folded edges, I mean tails. I use the tail as a kind of gasket to compensate for the gas check. It also provides a column effect to push the patch with the casting.
If you have a solid base, the pressure can only push against the base, unless the sizeing is off and you have gas cutting.
Food for thought.I have been very carfull to make sure there is a good tail on the boolit ,I flatern this out with the Lee push through sizing die

[Zeek]

Unless you are quite certain that your barrel is smooth enough, please consider fire-lapping it, then trying PPCBoos again. Smear some 400 grit valve grinding compound on a piece of steel, then use another piece of steel to roll a cast boolit (CBoo) back and forth over the smear, using slight downward pressure. Wipe off the CBoo and you should see LOTS of grit half-burried in the faces of the drive bands. Make up a dozen of these and fire them using a charge of 12 grains of Unique (just enough to get the CBoo down and out the barrel, at around 600 fps). Because you wipe all loose lapping coumpound off of each such lapping CBoo, it will not "get loose & rowdy" on you . . . you don't have to clean out your seating die or barrel . . . just fire the puppies.

With that done, if the PPCBoos start to do a bit better, but not good enough, then fire another dozen of these lapper CBoos. LOOK down your barrel, afterward, and you'll see that it is polished to perfection, but without much change in dimensions. As long as you avoid the chunky stuff (e.g., 220 grit) and stick to 24 lappers max (a dozen alone might do the trick), all you are doing is improving the quality of the barrel and eliminating one very real possible source of bad PPCBoo performance.
Zeek

[docone31]

I never figuired in a sand paper bore.
When I do the lapping thing, I lightly smear some Clover on the patch. Just enough to make it grey. It is loaded when I smear. That eliminates a lot of area for grit.
This I then fire downrange.
I have had dramatic success with my Smelly that way. From that point on, my patched loads have done very well.
A good sand paper bore will do miserable things to a patch, no matter how you lube it. There will be some smoothing, but nothing like a firelap.
Give it a whirl, who knows.

[303Guy]

Yup. Mine had a 'sand paper' bore. Actually, several of them did. Fire-lapping sorted them out. Now, I have tried wheat bran as a filler and it polished the bore! I'm thinking it might even clean out mildly 'sand paper' bores. I need one to test it on.:mrgreen:

I don't use a tail - I fold/crimp. But, I don't normally get patch slip either. A twisted tail could well improve matters. So I tried twisting the tail then sizing. Here it is.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SizedTwistedTail.jpg

It was dry wrapped, tail twisted tight, nub trimmed off as close as possible then sized.

Here it is with the patch removed.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SizedTwistedTail-PatchRemoved.jpg

I don't like that off centre dent.

[herbert buckland]

I did not think my barell needed laping ,but i did it anyway (nothing to loose) Tryed both methods sugested it has made no difrence ,the thing is this boolit is leading up every rifle i tryed it in ,no mater how good the bore is

[303Guy]

I agree. It's not the bore - you did say before that you tried it in another gun and had the same results.

Could you mike (or even vernier) one of those patched boolits, giving diameters at verious points along its length, please?

[herbert buckland]

I agree. It's not the bore - you did say before that you tried it in another gun and had the same results.

Could you mike (or even vernier) one of those patched boolits, giving diameters at verious points along its length, please?bass of boolit with patch on after runing through a .314 sizer .31455 in front of driving bands without patch .303 with patch .31330 at the end of the patched section near the nose.30850,do you think the difrence in the tension of the patch in front of the driving bands is causing patch seperation ,I found a peice of patch still in the chamber the lenth of the driving bands ,this stoped the next cartrige fiting in till i removed it,this only hapened once but this is were the leading starts so i think this is the problem,only gesing

[303Guy]

I don't know what to think. I'm no expert. I speculate that the patch is somehow slipping and you have found evidence although only once. It could be. But why and how? Your boolits are smaller than mine (but my paper is very compressable - if I measure the bore-ride with a mic I get .312 but with the sharp blade of a vernier I get .309) and chamber with no patch damage. I have found evidence of the boolits upsetting between the case mout and throat start. This evidence is preserved in the boolit. But the patch does not fail. I suppose the patch is thick enough to accomodate that upsetting. If that is happening to your boolits and your paper cannot accomodate it, it could result in the patch separating and folding at that point. Do you know the gap between case mouth and throat start in your rifle? Or just the case length would help since all chambers are fairly close to design spec in that regard.

It's hard to see in the pic but it's that band that goes half-way around the circumference where the case mouth would be - about a third way up. It's caused by a crease where the metal froze during casting, leaving a soft zone. That crease is visible at the bottom of the band.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-687F.jpg

Maybe the different design boolit you're using makes that effect critical?

[herbert buckland]

case lenth 2.253 inch 57.24 mm

[rhead]

Do you know the inside diameter of a fire unsized case?

[herbert buckland]

Do you know the inside diameter of a fire unsized case?.3145 inch

[docone31]

That is kinda what I thought.
You are wrapping too small. You are probably .315, or .316 in the bore.
Take the notebook paper, wrap it, let it dry, it should be .317. Give it a try.
Might just work.
Some of the bores were large. You will also need to modify your loading dies to make the patch work without tearing, or dislodgeing. With mine, I sent the dies into Lee, with two patched castings. The dies came right back and I have been happy since.
that explains a lot.

[herbert buckland]

That is kinda what I thought.
You are wrapping too small. You are probably .315, or .316 in the bore.
Take the notebook paper, wrap it, let it dry, it should be .317. Give it a try.
Might just work.
Some of the bores were large. You will also need to modify your loading dies to make the patch work without tearing, or dislodgeing. With mine, I sent the dies into Lee, with two patched castings. The dies came right back and I have been happy since.
that explains a lot.the groov diameter is .312, any boolit larger than .314 will not chamber

[303Guy]

case lenth 2.253 inch 57.24 mmThat's too long. Length should be 2.222 inches/56.44mm. Chamber clearance might tolerate a 57mm case but more is getting dodgy. That does not make it the cause but it would be a common denominator if the same load fails in another gun. It could be crimping the boolit on chambering - maybe?

Just a thought based on what I do - it's true that a .314 boolit would not chamber in your gun but the seated portion may be increased in diameter. It will swage down as it enters the throat. My rifle has a taper in front of the rifling leade. I can actually chamber the boolit against this cone and it will seat the boolit deeper into the case. That's not to say yours does.

Is your boolit a gas check design and are you using without a gas check?

[herbert buckland]

The boolit is a gas check desighn i am not yousing GCs,I will trim the cases and see weahter that makes a difrence ,one thing i never thort of,if the seated portion is biger than .314 it expands the neck to much ,the boolits drop at .315 and if i do not put them through the .314 sizer it expands the neck so it will not chamber in 3 of the H barells i have ,no problem in the standard barell and the rifle i am trying to youse is a 1920s Lithgow long tom replacment barell,H barells are just shortend versions with slight modifications and every barell i and others i know have measured very close to spects ,they will acept military amo but not a fired case from a standard barell,they all seem to be chamberd for the MkVI cartrige even the barell made in the late 50s,this should make them beter for PPing i was thinking

[303Guy]

Don't trim too much. Personally, I don't like a huge gap between case mouth and throat - too much space for unwelcome boolit upset as ignition. How did your cases get that long in the first place? Mine never grow and I only trim to square the mouth if the case is long enough.I also keep my pressures moderate and I lube my loaded cases - not dripping, just as I would for case sizing. Some say this a dangerous and unsafe practice but I have found evidence of any adverse effects. My cases last forever - hardly a sign of over pressure or bolt face overload but still, the cautioning is out there.

[herbert buckland]

I never crimp my cases and size as litle as posible so the only time i trim is to squar the mouth ,if they are feeding well i am fine whit that,I have alway tryed to keep the cases as long as posible ,anealing faily often keeps the brass softer so i supose this lets them grow more

[303Guy]

I try to keep my cases as long as possible too. Problem is, some are shorter than others so I have to compromise somewhere.

I am no longer resizing the necks so to I feel I need to keep the necks as hard as possible to retain sufficient springback for reloading. It sort of works with a need to size after a few loadings, depending on the initial state of anneal and the chamber size in the neck area. I've made my own sizer and expander to this end. Now for the test of time.:roll:

[docone31]

What size mold are you useing?
I use the Lee 303B mold. They go in the case like jacketeds do.

[herbert buckland]

What size mold are you useing?
I use the Lee 303B mold. They go in the case like jacketeds do.I am using the CBE 315-218 mould ,boolits drop at .315 and i size to .314,I am wating on a Lee 308 mould to try with PPs

[docone31]

I use the Lee C185/312 gn mold, size it to .308, then wrap it.
If you wrap a .30cal casting, the nose will rattle in the bore. You need .304, rather than the .301 you will get.
Size it to .308, wrap with notebook paper, then size to .314.
That is what works for me.

[herbert buckland]

I found some comersial cast 303 boolits ( sure they are cast from a Lee303B mould) they were ruined when the GC were put on ( expanded the nose with too much presure) I ran these through a .308 sizer ,raped them in notpaper and sized to .314 they work well and no leading ,reasnoble acuracy ,trouble is these are GC coated boolits so i am not sure if it is a good test ,but as the barell seems to be polishing up I think it is,I have 20 left so I will keep polishing,after going through the .308 sizer these boolit are a straight .308 cilinder with a round flat nose

[303Guy]

herbert, might I ask what the nose section diameter is on those CBE boolits? How do they shoot as plain cast?

[herbert buckland]

herbert, might I ask what the nose section diameter is on those CBE boolits? How do they shoot as plain cast?

nose section is .303,they shoot realy well with GC lubed with LLA ,pouder i am using is 22 1/2gr AR2207 or 11 1/2gr Trail Boss for 100 meter load this is very acurate

[303Guy]

My sizer whic suites three of my rifles, sizes the nose section down to .2974. Patching brings that up to .312 which chambers by virtue of the patch compressing. These are awaiting range testing. I have a Chrony now so I'll be able to chrono them at the same time. I'll take more than one rifle in case those loads don't perform.:roll: