Bullets deforming when seated?

[Tom-ADC]

Have a new bullet for my 45-70 its a Saeco mold I think the #745 bullet is 1.300 long & the lube grooves are .800 from the base to the crimp surface, I compressed the powder .650 into the case using a .062 veggie wad, but when I started to seat the bullet the seating die deforms the nose of the bullet when I get close to proper depth.
Should I chuck the veggie wad? I did use the case expander which help start the bullet.
Oh 70 grs bt wt FFg Starline case, Should I compress the powder even more?

[littlejack]

Hey Tom:
You need to compress the powder and wad the exact same amount you are going to seat the bullet. You need to buy or make a compression die. You do not want the bullet to be compressing the powder and wad. Seat the bullet to just set ON the wad, after all has been compressed.
Jack

[Tom-ADC]

Jack would it hurt not to have the veggie wad and then compress the powder to .800? I do have a powder compression die.

[martinibelgian]

Are you seating to the crimp groove? If so, why? I presume you're not shooting the loads in a repeating rifle. Ideally, the bullet should be seated to touch or lightly engrave the rifling with BP, and the charge should be compressed just enough to allow the bullet to be seated to that specific depth, just touching the wad - but not more. Don't looad to reloading manual specs, load to your rifle's specs. No crimp needed either in a single shot rifle, it serves no useful purpose, it just works the brass unnecessarily.

[RMulhern]

Let's get something above board here aka you say you're compressing the powder .650" but is that measurement an actual compression or are you taking the measurement from the mouth of the case! Frankly...I can't see where it's necessary to use THAT MUCH compression at all! If you're drop-tubing your powder.....70 grs. should fall below the mouth of the case and the actual compression measurement should be taken from the top of the powder column!! Using the depth guage on a vernier caliper....measure from the top of the case down to the powder before compression and record that! Once you've compressed the powder to the correct depth for seating your bullet.....measure how far it is down to the powder again and subtract the first figure from the last measurement for your actual compression factor!! Whatever thickness OPW you're using....take that into consideration for correct depth adjustment and seating of the bullet!!

[Tom-ADC]

I'm measuring from the top of the case mouth to the wad using a caliper, so its .650 from the case mouth to the wad. I was seating to crimp groove. Also shooting single shot rifle. Didn't use a drop tube but I can get all 70 grs in the case by moving the lever on the powder measure. OPW is .062 maybe a tad to thick? Is it required for 70 gr powder charges?

[Red River Rick]

...........Didn't use a drop tube but I can get all 70 grs in the case by moving the lever on the powder measure. OPW is .062 maybe a tad to thick? Is it required for 70 gr powder charges?

Your not using a powder measure for BP are you?

RRR

[Tom-ADC]

Your not using a powder measure for BP are you?

RRR

Yes its the Lyman 55 BP model.

[Don McDowell]

Tom unless you're casting your bullets out of something like #2 alloy you need to use something to push the top of the powder column and wad to a depth in the case that the bullet will just touch the wad firmly when seated to your chosen depth.
Otherwise you'll squish the nose out a little, and that will/can give you some leading problems. After recovering enough paper patched bullets I'm not convinced that distorting the nose of a grease groove bullet during seating is going to do a whole lot to mess up accuracy. Because when that powder charge gets spanked awake by the primer just getting goosed, all He double l breaks loose in that chamber and soft lead gets whacked around pretty hard.

[Tom-ADC]

Bullets are 30-1, I was really watching OAL to try and keep it at 2.835 per the Lyman BP handbook but maybe that isn't as important as I thought?

[Tom-ADC]

Also I do use a brass powder Wolf compression die & a case expander.

[martinibelgian]

Tom,
Your rifle will dictate cartridge OAL - don't let any handbook do so. You're compressing too much IMO - just enough to allow the cartridge to chamber is good, you can even use unsized brass. This is BP, not smokeless - a completely different game.

[Don McDowell]

The chamber in your rifle will dictate seating depth. Some rifles do alright with seating a bullet to the driving band, others prefer to have the bullet jammed into the lands.
Load and test fire a dozen or so rounds with the bullet seated to the driving band, seated to touch the rifling and seated to split the difference.
You'll need to adjust how much you mash your powder into the case for each seating depth.

[powderburnerr]

tom ,
if you dont want to use a wad you do not have to , but even a wax paper wad makes a difference,
seat the bullet to set solidly on the black powder.........................dean

[Tom-ADC]

Hope I'm not driving you guys nuts, but I've done a lot of smokless reloading and BP is new, concerning the OPW my boolits are plan base so can I do away with the OPW or should I use some thing even just waxpaper?
To check for max OAL should I just keep seating the boolit until the breach closes easy?

[Don McDowell]

Yes seat the bullet out and keep setting it in until you can close the action.
As to the OPW take what Powderburner tells you to heart. He's got the experience and knowledge to back his words.

[mtnman31]

Tom, where in SoCal are you located? I might be able to help you out? Send me a PM if you'd like some assistance.

[hydraulic]

Here's what I do with my .45-70 Browning. In WW cases, 70 weighed grs. of Swiss 1 1/2 drop tubed, shove a wad cut from an oatmeal box down on the powder, compress 1/10 inch, seat an RCBS 535 gr. bullet down snugly on the wad, bump the case up into the resizer die (decap rod removed) to smooth out the bell on the case, shoot the round into the 10 ring. All grease grooves are covered and the driving band is lightly imprinted with the rifling.

[montana_charlie]

I used 'screen calipers' to measure the Saeco #745 from the Redding site.
It looks like your .650" wad depth will seat the bullet with all grooves covered.
Will the round chamber when the bullet sits at that depth?

CM

[Red River Rick]

As most have already mentioned. Seat your bullets out far enough that will still allow for proper chambering.

I've been using the Dixie/Lyman Bore-Rider, 2640661, 510 gr bullet. The Bore-Rider portion allows me to seat my bullets out without any chambering issues. It also allows for more room in your case.

My bullets are only seated into the case by approx 0.380", just enough so that the first driving band just kisses the 45 degree leade, in my Pedersoli chambers. You don't need a lot of compression with this bullet, about 0.300" is all I'm using.

OAL of the 45-70 is 3.130, the 45-90 is 3.420.

RRR

[powderburnerr]

Tom , you might try loading with fire formed cases and bumping them in the sizing die to snug them up after they are loaded ... you might have a tight sizing die...





rick ,
you should try one of them KAL moulds and handles the guy is real close by you up there . course you would have to put clothes on them .but you could seat them out a little further..........Dean

[Tom-ADC]

Okay shot at the range today, had some 350 gr FP boolits loaded up shot those post target later But had a chance to talk to one of our BPCR shooters a good one , showed him the boolit I want to use and he sat down with me and explained how to get the proper seating depth for my boolits, I was seating them way to deep proper seating depth is .548 for my rifle, he recommended since I use Goex FFg to have approx .250 powder compression and to use the .06 OPW I have and see how that works. I haven't checked to see how much powder this will be, soon as I check I'll post the resaults.
I was thinking since I was using twice fired cases perhaps I should do an anneal cycle on them, they may be springing back after running thru the expander.
I can't believe this is actually fun but it is, never to old to learn I guess, how said you can't teach an old dog new tricks:smile::holysheep

[Tom-ADC]

350 FP Goex FFg sighted rifle at 50 yds then out to 100 this is a 100 yd small bore target.
I need to change the front sight insert right now its a fine post with small dot I think I'll switch to a ring of some sort.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL174/1021972/18168454/387118951.jpg

[Tom-ADC]

After following all of the tips and making a OAL measurement I ended up with 59.2 grs of FFg .06 OPW and that gave me .250 compression on the powder, loaded 10 and then bumped the powder up to 61.0 grs nothing else changed and loaded 10 more.
Next weeks trip to the range should give me a hint if the rifle likes these.

[Don McDowell]

Tom couple things.
First forget the compression number it means absolutely nothing.
If you're still working with that 350 gr bullet go right to 70 grs 2f mash it down however far you need with the .060 wad in place to achieve the seating depth you want with that bullet.
On the Saeco bullet start with 65 grs of 2f and smash it down till the bullet seats to the depth you want.
Anything less you might find an accurate load at short to midrange, but longer ranges the bullet won't have the velocity it needs to stay stable.

[Tom-ADC]

Don, I was using the compression number to make sure when I seated the boolit it would not leave a gap between the powder and boolit base. Heard that was important.

[powderburnerr]

if you go to an aperature front , try one that is about 3 or 4 times bigger than the bull , it makes it easier to center the bull with more light on the sides.
You may not see much change with those loads and a 350 gn bullet , there isnt much resistance to the charge with that light bullet.. .....Dean

[RMulhern]

Tom

If you want your .45/70 to shoot great....KRAP CAN the 350 gr. bullet and get you some 530 gr. Postell bullets or a bullet within that weight range up to 550 grs. or so...provided your rifle has a 1-18" ROT and is not a morphodyke brand or a piece of KRAP like a HandiRifle!! That last number of your caliber SHOULD tell you something also! Pipsqueak loads don't normally perform to well!!

BTW....powderburner is telling you right on his comment reference sight usage!!

[Tom-ADC]

I swapped the front sight insert tothe largest circle I have, and have a supply of Saeco #745 535 gr bullets, even got a can of Swiss powder.
I'll drop the 350's and work on finding a load with the big boolits the rifle likes.
I did manage to load 66 grs of FFg with the 535 boolits and do not deform and chamber with out problems. With luck I'll make a range trip Thursday.

[Char-Gar]

You did not mention what deforming the nose means. Often if the bullet nose if the wrong fit for the seating die, the bullet nose will be deformed by seating. If that is the case, just remove the bullet seatng stem from your die and have a friend with a lathe turn it flat. A bullet with a meplat will seat just fine with a flat stem.

It deformation means, the bullet gets expanded them the alloy is too soft for the pressure use to seat the bullet to the depth you want. The solution is to use a harder alloy or seat the bullet farther out so less pressue is used to seat.

[Char-Gar]

You did not mention what deforming the nose means. Often if the bullet nose if the wrong fit for the seating die, the bullet nose will be deformed by seating. If that is the case, just remove the bullet seatng stem from your die and have a friend with a lathe turn it flat. A bullet with a meplat will seat just fine with a flat stem.

It deformation means, the bullet gets expanded them the alloy is too soft for the pressure use to seat the bullet to the depth you want. The solution is to use a harder alloy or seat the bullet farther out so less pressue is used to seat.

[Tom-ADC]

It was the nose being deformed, but since then I've revised the seating depth of the bullet and have loaded a bunch up without problems, as soon as my Swiss powder gets here I'm going to duplicate the same loads I used with the Goex FFg and see if there is much differance between the two powders lke I've heard and see which one this rifle likes.
Good info though and I'll file it away.

[Gunlaker]

I swapped the front sight insert tothe largest circle I have, and have a supply of Saeco #745 535 gr bullets, even got a can of Swiss powder.
I'll drop the 350's and work on finding a load with the big boolits the rifle likes.
I did manage to load 66 grs of FFg with the 535 boolits and do not deform and chamber with out problems. With luck I'll make a range trip Thursday.

How did those loads go? I'll bet they did OK. If I remember correctly you are shooting a Pedersoli 1874? Mine liked 65gr of Goex cartridge and a 535gr Postell style bullet seated out a bit. I find the lollypop style insert makes a big difference too over a post, at least for my not perfect eyes :smile:

(although the local guys have me convinced to use a thin post for off hand shooting, and that seems to be working.)

Chris.

[Tom-ADC]

Chris, I didn't get out, had to attend a funeral way to many this year.
Did POI change when you switched inserts?
1874 Pedersoli Sharps BTW this Thursday for sure, I have Swiss powder coming Tuesday so I'm going to load up the same load as I used with Goex FFg and see the difference between the two.

[Gunlaker]

Chris, I didn't get out, had to attend a funeral way to many this year.
Did POI change when you switched inserts?
1874 Pedersoli Sharps BTW this Thursday for sure, I have Swiss powder coming Tuesday so I'm going to load up the same load as I used with Goex FFg and see the difference between the two.

I don't recall whether there was a POI difference in my Pedersoli with switching inserts to be honest.

I switch inserts in my 1885 for off hand shooting , but I wouldn't know if there was a POI difference as my skill level in the "art of off hard shooting" needs some work :grin:

I do know that for offhand, it seems easier to keep a decent hold with a post.

Chris.

[Tom-ADC]

I think this is the insert set that came with my rifle, I do have another hooded front sight with inserts but haven't tried it yet, I use the largest dia ring and the finest post with a dot but eyes are old and I'm having a hard time seeing the fine post right now but maybe for offhand as you note.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/img/Accessories/USA%20424.jpg

[Gunlaker]

I like the Pedersoli inserts quite a bit more than the ones that came with my Lee Shaver sight. I have to double up on the inserts (use two different aperture sizes at the same time) to be able to use them effectively. It makes the ring look thicker. I read that one from Mike Venturino in an article somewhere. A seriously useful nugget of knowledge!

Chris.