First time milsurp - questions

[ghh3rd]

My 23 yr old son has expressed interest in getting a milsurp rifle as his very first gun. He's on a tight budget, so he's lucky that he will be able to learn to cast and reload from me :-) Something suitable for hunting would be preferable.

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with them. Any good milsurps out there for a reasonable price that shoot cast boolits well and can be scoped? I will probably get drawn into this too -- I can just hear my wife now asking "is that another rifle?!"

Thanks,


Randy

[WILCO]

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with them. Any good milsurps out there for a reasonable price that shoot cast boolits well and can be scoped? I will probably get drawn into this too -- I can just hear my wife now asking "is that another rifle?!"


Milsurps are addictive. The Mosin-Nagants are by far the cheapest priced with quality. Mausers are great to. Good ones to be had for under $300.00 I think.
Pick up a copy of the ShotGun News and start perusing to get an idea of what you want.

[Bloodman14]

What type action does he want? If a bolt-gun, get an Enfield, or a Moson-Nagant; if a semi-, grab an SKS. FWIW.

[bradh]

Take a look at www.jgsales.com

[ghh3rd]

Looks like Mosin-Nagants are a real bargain. How hard are they to scope?

[docone31]

Get an Ishapore.
My wife loves hers. We have a consecutive number match. You can make a scope mount easily also.
They are shooters.
7.62/308 ammo is readily available. Paper patching really works.
A winner all around.
You can also get 5rd magazines for it as well, plus Enfield #1MKIII parts also fit.

[jonk]

With a split receiver, Mosins will require a side mount. Mausers can take a normal top mount.

On either, you will have to have the bolt and probably the stock modified to clear the scope.

I'd go with a Mosin 91/30 (or M44) if he likes carbines, or a Yugo M24/47 Mauser for an entry level gun. Watch out for one with a good bore though; a lot were neglected and have pitted bores.

Both are under $200 and will shoot cast just fine.

The Mosin is the best deal going, you can get one for under $80 plus shipping.

[Multigunner]

The No.4 Enfield with five groove bore if you can find one, in the original .303 is the best choice.
If headspace is a hair to large for long case life you might find a bolt head of a higher number that will take up the slack, or use the O-ring method to fire form cases to headspace on the shoulder.

I replaced the worn bolt of my No.4 and obtained a number 3 bolthead, and so far haven't lost a case to stretching. Headspace is now very close with a headgap of less than .004.

In any case no gun smithing scope mounts are available, and the bolt handle is already well suited to use with a scope.

At one time bullets for the .303 bores were not easy to find, but thats changed now days. .311 and .312 bullets are not hard to find, and pulled surplus Soviet 7.62 bullets are fairly cheap. Pretty much any bullet suited to the 7.62x54r will work with the .303, though I've had to seat the Soviet bullets past the cannelure to get proper OAL.

The .303 can be very accurate with bullets of 150 to 220 grains, and some shoot the 125 grain bullets well.

I have nothing againt the Mosin Nagant either, these can be tackdrivers with taylored handloads. I don't own one, but once worked up some highly accurate loads for one that belonged to a friend.

There are still replacement parts of all sorts available for the Enfields at very reasonable prices.

You can probably find a restorable bubba'ed No.4 fairly cheaply, and restock it to mil spec at your leisure.

The SMLE No.1 MkIII is also a fine rifle, I'm building my 1915 into a range rifle of sorts.
Bedding can be much trickier with the No.1 rifles, but results are well worth it.
These all have five groove bores so they should handle cast boolits very well.

[skeet1]

ghh3rd,
A Mauser 24/47 is a good one to start with. They are not all that expensive and ammo and components are easy to find. I think J&G Sales has them for $179.00.

Skeet1

[giorgio]

Buy American obsolete GI rifles, brass is good quality,compatible bullet moulds are plentyful,and their metallic sights are useable.And all have decent triggers .
SMLE in 308win are second choice ,as 30-06 South American mausers.
All the other surplus rifles are not beginners rifles,an old hand at reloading,can enjoy shooting them not a newbie.
I have owned 5 mosins,4 98 mausers,2 95 mausers a Carcano,6 smle one Dragunova, kalashnikov,1 sks.two carlgutafs gevar 6.5.
My springfield,Mod of 17,M14 and m1 are in a different league.
And though I do not like Colt's black ratguns, they have been the most accurate military rifles I ever owned.
Often you'll find that a cheap non US made surplus rifle will make you spend more for shooting it.than a higher priced US smokepole.
To morrow I'll load an shoot a mod 44 mosin ,with a pistol scope scout style on it. but I am not a young tyro,I am an old posterior wind.

[giorgio]

And one more advice,Two grooves barrels shoot cast bullets much better than multi grooved barrels.
And because the unenlightened scorn them and avoid them,it is much easier to find mint two grooved barrel.
Usually mint barrel shoot better than worn and pitty 4 or 5 five barrels.

K 31 Swiss mousqueton Schmidt -Rubin may shoot well,the old 1911 are much inferior.
Good luck for the brass,while 308 Sierras are OK

[milsurp mike]

I would start with a 91-30 Mosin Nagant.They can be had for $79 or so.You can also get a scope mount that repaces the rear sight and use a Long Eye Relief Scope.You can also tap and drill the Receiver and mounts are available cheap.The Tap and Drill mount only are attached in the front of the mount and work good.I have a Sporter with the Tap mount and It shoots better than I can.Give the Mosins a Look.Mike

[mike in co]

With a split receiver, Mosins will require a side mount. .

not quite

sk scope mounts makes a very solid rear sight base scope mount( with rings) about 70 bucks.

a mosin cabine...20" is less than 100 bucks


a 2-7 ler ncstar scope is 42 delivered.


total cost ......212...complete and ready to hunt......


lots of jacketed hunting ammo, i sell new brass and a nice cast would work for hunting.

mike in co

[Bret4207]

FWIW- The best off the shelf HUNTING milsurp is without doubt the Steyr 95 in 8x56R. The safety is perfect, the caliber more than adequate, accuracy (with mine at least) is superb, light, handy, fast, issue sights are workable. A Springfield receiver sight can be mounted without much trouble (see Buckshots rifle) and that makes it better. The triggers are okay, but nothing to write home about. A set of Lee dies, some Graf brass or loaded SP ammo and a few surplus clips for the magazine and you're all set. They run about $100.00.

The best off the shelf value? Either a SMLE #4 or a Mauser.

Cheapest option- MN, especially if you like blasting ammo.

[JSH]

I won't go as far to say what is "best".
I will give you some food for thought. Do a LOT of reading on what you are edging towards as far as a milsurp. Check on avalabiity of brass and suitable moulds, sizing dies and reloading dies.
There are very few moulds out there that will go over .313, compared to a standard 30 caliber mould running around .310-.311. T
Brass can be an issue also. I had a harder time finding some 7.62x54 brass that I could afford than any of the ones based off of the 06 brass.
I have milsurps in 6.5x55, 30-06, 30-40 Krag, 7.65x55, 7.62x54 and a sporterized, 8mm-06.
Guy was scared of the 8mm-06 and ended up with more in the dies, mould and lube sizer die than I did the rifle.
I myself would do a lot of research and then ask some more questions when you narrow it down.
Or if you will be happy with somthing that goes "bang" and hits a paper plate at 50 yards grab what is cheap.
One last thing, you end up with, what you start with.
jeff

[Multigunner]

And one more advice,Two grooves barrels shoot cast bullets much better than multi grooved barrels.
And because the unenlightened scorn them and avoid them,it is much easier to find mint two grooved barrel.
Usually mint barrel shoot better than worn and pitty 4 or 5 five barrels.

K 31 Swiss mousqueton Schmidt -Rubin may shoot well,the old 1911 are much inferior.
Good luck for the brass,while 308 Sierras are OK

The Savage Two Groove barrels are picky about what they'll shoot well, these have very narrow and deep grooves.
British made two groove barrels have broader grooves, and US Springfield 03a3 two groove bores also have broader grooves. These can handle Cast much better than the Savage two groove bores.
My Savage is very picky with only a few bullet types working well in it.

My 1915 SMLE has a near perfect bore, but you are correct that worn and pitted five groove bores can be hard to deal with, and are more common than bores in great shape.

Another potential problem is that many of the No.4 rifles that are found with pristine two groove bores have been rebarreled by importers using take off barrels from stripped drill rifles or demilled rifles that are stripped for parts.
Several times I've seen owners of these complaining of the barrels not being clocked in properly. On occasion the owners have sent these back to the dealer and its been returned with a different barrel thats been clocked in properly.

[jonk]

I would hardly say that a Swiss 1911 is inferior to a K-31. I have both, as well as an 1889, 96/11, K-11, and several Vetterlis. The 11 is probably my best shooting of the bunch.

I wouldn't recommend a Swiss for a starter gun of any sort though, no matter how well it is made. Nor an M.95. US guns are great, but I started cheap and worked my way up- you don't buy a ferarri before you buy a ford.

I stick with what I said. Get a Mosin or low end Mauser. They're no harder to get to shoot well than anything else, despite what is said above.