Finn 91/30 Mosin-nagant

[mike in co]

for those of you that frequent empire arms, dennis had a lovely 1944 finn rebuild on a 1895 reciever( antique). it now resides at my house.....

the bbl looks new...bright and shiny...have not slugged either end yet.
the bolt still has preservative on it......

long site radius(29" bbl)...great for older eyes...

cant wait to put some bollits down range with this......

[Bob S]

Mike:

What's the trigger like? (bizarre trigger pulls is one of the things that has been kwwpin me away from these things).

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

this is the fifth mn i have purchased. only one has been a problem....a sub 8 ounce trigger !!
did not measure this one yet but smooth, long pull

[XBT]

Bob S,
I don't know about the other Finn re-builds, but the M-39's usually have a modification done to that strange Russian trigger. All the M-39's I've shot have had excellent two stage triggers.

Jim

[txpete]

the finn's replaced sights,triggers sears and barrels on the russian mosin nagants.I have M28/20 and a M39 that are very accurate.if y'all don't have a M39 this is the time to get one.distr are almost out and when they are gone the prices are sure to go high.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/2003_0429finns0001.jpg

[Rick4570]

Mike, I have an M39 also, and it is fast becoming one of my favorite rifles to shoot. Those Finns' took a servicable rifle and turned it into very fine machine!
Regards, Rick

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, Mike! I'm glad to see you obtain another Mosin-Nagant. If any of your others are also Finn rebuilds, take a look at the left side of the chamber end of the barrel between the rear site and the bolt above the wood line and see if any of your Finns have 36 or 3600 stamped there. The Tikkakoski and SAKO barrels stamped with that number were intended for high pressure ammunition, the number referring to 3600 atmospheres (atmosphere = 14.68 psi at sea level) of pressure, which is right around 52,850 c.u.p., instead of the usual 3100 atmosphere (45,500 c.u.p.). The exact purpose of these barrels has been lost beyond the obvious of being for high pressure, but common sense would indicate that high pressure shooting is for either high velocity or very heavy bullets, which translates to either long distances or armor piercing, or both. Whatever their original purpose, they are somewhat rare, and all of them display unusually fine accuracy beyond the already exceptional accuracy that the Finns possess. They also have a very dark plum-red color due to the type of alloy steel used, instead of the typical graphite-gray of the phosphate finish.

Regardless of that, you've got an excellent cast boolit shooter and there are lots of us here who'll tell you what to feed it with, although Jumptrap's recommend of IMR7828 is probably one of the best, along with WC860/872. Good luck with it!

[Finn45]

I don't know if you want to hear this or not, but I have a strong belief (only opinion, not read from Markku Palokangas books...) that those markings are telling that so marked gun is proof tested according to European regulations for firearms (for some reason, maybe for exporting in this case) and it has nothing to do with army issues. Reading 3600 means bars (or atmosphere depending of the time) of pressure (MAP or test pressure) and reading 36, well inspector probably saved himself for stamping two letters or it might be abbreviation for certain market or it is just tested another time when other paper of regulations was in use. It's easy to believe also that earlier, or because of some other officer in duty, some lots of guns were accepted for exporting without such markings. Thinking of the normal bureaucracy with all stupid paper work included those markings could also have been very temporarily in use. Some lots if not all exported guns were maybe rebuilt with higher quality standards as well. When magnum loads for shotguns started to come here, around 70's - 80's there was kind of a rush for 70mm / 2-3/4" mini magnums and the most common question in every hunting/shooting magazine was "can I shoot mini magnums in my Valmet 212?" The most common answer was that it's not recommended if Valmet is not marked either "1200" or "120" in the barrel rear block showing that it's tested for magnum loads max 1200 bars. My old 212 shows only proof tested 12GA meaning it's tested for older 900 bars standard. Back to rifles; 3400 bars is max average crusher pressure for 7.62x53R according to todays CIP regulations, 3900 bars with transducer method; same pressures for 7.62x54R. Difference today is that m39's which are commercially available in Finnish civilian market are not marked with pressure reading but lion head figure instead indicating that they're CIP tested in Finland; gun shop can't sell guns without CIP testing them first, but private person can. Purchase permit might still include a note that gun has to be tested before license validation. My own m39 is not marked with CIP markings and I'm pleased. One thing more; it really is 7,62x53R here in Finland and if Finnish Mosin is marked with 7.62x54R it is truly intended for exporting purposes. One more for the road; Finnish army issues, including my own m39 are not marked for the caliber at all... I guess soldier on duty won't need that information so much.

[mike in co]

hmmmmmm
ok quickload says 7.62x53R finn is 3900 bar/56564 psi Pmax(map)
and says 7.62x54R russ is 3900 bar


so now just where do we stand on loads ???

if actually only 3600 bar........where did this data come from ??

i ran several sierra loads in quick load.....some were 3200/3500 bar, but a couple of the 220 loads went well over the 3900 bar limit...hmmmmm
may have to call them and see what they got for pressure.....
they only shot 308 bullets.......
more questions...more questions....

i did some quick guesses and it would appear the two original loads for the 91 and 91/30 would produce aprox 2000bar and 2300 bar......hmmmmmm

[Finn45]

If quickload states 3900 bars then it's according CIP standard because according to ql documentation quickload is using transducer method (piezo electric) and 3900 bars is x53R and x54R CIP MAP with transducer (3400 bars with crusher). I have another wild guess where that 3600 bars stamped in the guns is coming from... It's pretty surely crusher pressure and I can picture very clearly the procedure when some Finnish official was figuring out what pressure to use as a MAP pressure in guns shipped to the US... He checked 3400 bars to be CIP MAP (crusher at that time), but he was confused with another military round, the 7.62Nato and.308Win and it's 3600 bars CIP MAP... he decided to use 3600 bars in Mosins which were going to be shipped to US. This is very wild guess but I have a strong hunch about Finnish officials line of thoughts... Anyway I still cannot find any reason to believe that those markings would be any military indicators for guns indicated for special rounds or something, it just don't make sense when MG ammunition, AP and all others were all over the field available to every individual shooting Mosins in duty and out of duty as well and as I said these guns are not even marked for any caliber originally by the military. Old ammunition from war era is still found occasionally and persons asks questions in the web if they can shoot those old cartridges with funny looking colored bullets...

[Finn45]

Of yes that 3600 bars is CIP MAP for .308Win with crusher method; 4150 bars with piezo.

[Linstrum]

For Mike in Colorado and Finn45: Hi, guys!

Mike in Colorado: Where do we stand on loads? Well, first off 3400 bars crusher method = 3900 bars transducer method of pressure testing. Same pressure, just different equipment used to measure it. Jumptrap's famous Mosin-Nagant attempted destruction test indicates that they will withstand far in excess of these pressures, somewhere far in excess of 5500 bars crusher, which translates to over 80,000 psi. However, from Hatcher's calculations on similar destruction testing loads for the Garand the pressure generated by that much Red Dot may be closer to 8200 bars or 120,000 psi, using the crusher method of testing. So, do not worry about any sane loads that you throw at your rifle, the 31 grains of Red Dot followed by another of 36 grains of Red Dot and 180 grain condom bullets that Jumptrap used develop far, far more pressure than any load you can put together using a powder of the IMR4895 - H380 class of propellants! And the rifle did not fail catastrophically, the rifle's parts and pieces simply warped and bent and there were no flying pieces of shrapnel.

Finn45, thanks for the information! The 3600-marked 91/30 rifle that I have was stamped at the time of barrel testing in 1944, not later (the receiver is dated 1936). The barrel has not been refinished and all of the markings are blued over, indicating that the phosphate bluing finish was applied after the number marks were stamped into the steel. If the marks had been stamped after the finish was applied, the metal would be bare and silver colored from the stamping tools destroying the finish, which is very hard and chips off when indented by the stamping die. All of the 3600-marked Tikkakoski barreled rifles are reported to have a very peculiar colored finish that is caused by the special high strength steel that Tikkakoski used to make the barrels from. The dark red-purple color is caused by the combination of chromium, molybdenum, and nickel in the steel. The kind of steel that the standard barrels were made from was regular carbon steel with very little additional alloying added and those barrels produce the ordinary very dark gray color when phosphated or blued. Since the date of the 3600-marked Tikkakoski barrel is 1944 and is also stamped with the "SA" in a box, this indicates that it was for military use. There are no markings on the rifle that say 7.62x53R or 7.62x54R. I don't have the original SA Civil Guard "hang tag" anymore and I wish I had saved it. The storage and inventory label tag was tied on and was dated 1944. It contained the number 3600 on it as well. My 3600-marked rifle also has a roller trigger assembly, which is supposed to be fairly rare and none of my other Finn rebuilds have them. All of the serial numbers match and none of them have been ground away and then re-stamped. What ever this rifle is, it is by far the most accurate rifle I own and with good ammunition I have shot several 2 centimeter five shot groups at 100 meters.

[Jumptrap]

Just a little clarification;

It was 36 grains of Red Dot followed by 31.5 of BULLSYEYE!!!! Think about that for a moment. The bullet was steel cored Russian ball.....about 149 grains. That action was a '44 dated round receiver of Russian manufacture. I have no idea what kind of steel alloy they used, but it's a damned stout one for certain. Beauty of this material is that it swelled a bit, but never ruptured, split or tore. Mind this was during a very stressed wartime period. This may have been one of the strong ones and 10 more just like it would have come unglued.....especially if Boritz or Natasha had too much Wodka the night before they pulled their shift heat treating actions.

Not being an engineer and having an understanding of fluid dynamics, yield strengths of metals and radial stresses.....I have to rely on horse sense and believe that the round receiver is stronger than the older hex shaped version, as the angles would be natural places for forces to act upon, whereas the round shape would allow the force to be distributed around the entire circumference of the reciever ring.

As for roller trigger asemblies, I believe they appeared on the older model 28's and later 28/30's......so your rifle may have been a rebuilt 28. I had a 28 that had it. My VKT's exhibit that purpilish hue you speak of and are marked 3600, something I thought was common on 39's.

[Finn45]

Well, I didn't have any idea manufacturers marking these rifles showing pressure reading, but mosinnagant.net says so pretty clearly:



"Pressure proof marking on a M39 rifle. This proof is from VKT but there are other versions of this marking that depend on the maker of the rifle."

http://www.mosinnagant.net/images/m39markingsvktpresureproof.jpg



It's clear 3600 bars splitted with vkt logo. Depending of the manufacturer for sure, some of them used probably some marking without bar reading. Well, still have to believe 3600 bars were the standard, but I'll try to find something more exact info. Roller triggers might lead in to the earlier sniper versions; latest models (TAK-85) were equipped with adjustable Valmet "clockwork" trigger system and were stocked totally differently.

[Finn45]

Nothing like exact info but purplish barrel steel seems to indicate later manufacture and plain pressure reading maybe belongs to Tikka, but that's pure guess. Last night I grabbed my right eyeball to my hand and looked and there it was; very small and almost invisible (there's only half of #3 and 3/4 parts of first #0 with last #0 nearly missing completely) proof mark exactly in the same place. Rifle is Sako and marking is 36<S>00, <S> being Sako gearwheel logo. Barrel has clear purplish tint on it especially in chamber area and it's marked 1943. Have to get that Palokangas from the library some time...

[txpete]

great info guys,out of all my finn's my 1936 M28/30 has the best trigger followed by the M39 "B" barrel.the "B" has a deep purple tint to it and from what I have read it's from the extra nickel that the belgiums used when they made those barrels for the finn's???.
for cast loads I haven't found a better powder yet than AA5744 in my finn's.
pete

[mike in co]

ok....you guys asked if i'd report how this rifle shoots.
i shot these wed am before flying to san francisco...just got back this eve.

first this is a "new" rifle. it was built in 1895 by the russians, then rebuilt by the finn's in 1944. it would appear to have not been shot after it left the rebuild factory....
i loaded some hornady 174's (.3105 dia, fmjbt) on top of mild loads of imr4350 45-48 gr with wlr primers.( it slugged 311x302)
stock sights, set at 100, from the bench...sr21 target at 100 yrds.

THE VERY FIRST ROUND WAS A "10"....i got excited and dropped the next shot into the 8 ring,,,,,got serious and SHOT TWO MORE "10"'s AND AN "X" !!!!!
FOLKS...THIS RIFLE SHOOTS !!!!
what was really amazing was i was shooting over a chrono and each of the first 5 shots went faster than the previous shot. same load...just a new bbl...2152....2168.....2178....2182 then a 2222......visible "break-in".
i shot a total of five 5 shot loads.....
the second load went 10,8(me)10,9,10
third...3 in .8( two in one hole)
fourth 3 in .7
fifth 3 in .65 (two in one hole)
i had a flyer/fliers in each goup but it was my eyes not the rifle.

now just how many condom bullets should i put thru this b4 trying some boolits ???
( by the way, i pick this load by est the pressure of the orginal loads for the '91 and the revised 1906 146 gr load, and just trying the same pressure)

[StarMetal]

My Finn 39 shoots like that with cast bullets, the 314299 particularly.

Joe

[mike in co]

I GOT THAT MOLD....what loads are you shooting....

[StarMetal]

I'm shooting both 844 and 4895 surplus, both shoot the same. I'd have to look up the loads.

Joe

[Jumptrap]

FTF7828......Feed the Finn 40 grains of IMR 7828 under the 314299, LR primer. Slow powders really shine with cast bullets.....but not all slow powders react the same. 4831 has shown me very little worth mentioning and stuff slower than 7828 is TOO slow. I had high hopes the 5010 I have would work, but just not pressure generated to get an efficient burn.

These Finn Mosins are the sleepers of the century.

[C1PNR]

now just how many condom bullets should i put thru this b4 trying some boolits ???
( by the way, i pick this load by est the pressure of the orginal loads for the '91 and the revised 1906 146 gr load, and just trying the same pressure)
I have an M39 like that. Seems unfired after the rearsenal job.

I'd put maybe 50 rounds FLGC through it, clean and decopper thoroughly, then try some boolits.

It's kind of a crap shoot on a "new" barrel. I've had them start shooting "one ragged hole" groups with as few as 20 ('06 M70 Win) rounds, and then the next one takes well over 150 (300 WM Browning A Bolt) before it "settles down" and starts shooting.

I have another M39 to shoot, so I'll probably leave the NIB (if there is such a milsurp[smilie=l: ) alone. Really want to put a "Scout" scope on it and try for some local small (whistle pigs) game.